After the due acknowledgement to St Cyril’s great predecessor, St Athanasius, I want to return to Cyril himself, and, as May is the month of Mary, to an examination of his role in the definition of the dogma that Our Lady is the Theotokos, the God-Bearer, the Mother of God. That involves a preliminary skirmish with Edward Gibbon whose Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, contains one of his most vicious pen portraits, which has set the tone for the way in which later writers have treated St Cyril. If history does not repeat itself, the same cannot be said of historians.
As an Enlightenment thinker, Edward Gibbon had little patience with religion, and even less interest in understanding it as a motive force in politics. Thus, when he came to examine St Cyril’s part in the Council of Ephesus, which defined the dogma that Our Lady is the ‘God-bearer’ or Theotokos, he brushed aside impatiently the immense weight of writings in which Cyril explained his case, and went straight for a motive he understood – power. In this he was a pioneer for a method many historians have used since. It is essentially reductionist. It begins with the view, clearly shared by the historian, that all this religion stuff is to do with power, and proceeding from that assumption, goes on to ‘prove’ it is so. Thus, writing about the background to Ephesus, Gibbon observes:
Cyril was at length awakened by the exaltation of a rival more worthy of his esteem and hatred. After the short and troubled reign of Sisinnius, bishop of Constantinople, the factions of the clergy and people were appeased by the choice of the emperor, who, on this occasion, consulted the voice of fame, and invited the merit of a stranger. Nestorius, native of Germanicia, and a monk of Antioch, was recommended by the austerity of his life, and the eloquence of his sermons …
Gibbon assumes the lowest of motives: ‘Religion was the pretence’, he explains, adding that:
in the judgment of a contemporary saint, ambition was the genuine motive of episcopal warfare
The saint concerned was St. Isidore of Pelusium. If we read what the Blessed Saint (who was probably related to Cyril) wrote, we see how disingenuous Gibbon is. St. Isidore wrote:
Liking cannot see far ahead, while dislike cannot see clearly. So if you wish to remedy both of these sight problems, do not spout out such vehement statements, instead be more fair in your accusations. Even God All Knowing, before his birth, thought it best out of his love for man to come down and see the boisterousness of the Sodomites, teaching us a lesson in fully inquiring. Many of the people who have come to Ephesus (are) ridiculing you for acting out of personal enmity and not for the doctrine of Jesus Christ. “Here’s this nephew of Theophilus, they say, imitating his way of thinking. Like him, he falls into a rage against the God-loving John, inspired by God, and he desires ever so much to lecture, even though there is a great difference between the people (who are) deciding.”
Isidore, is referring to Cyril’s uncle and predecessor, Theophilus of Alexandria who had brought down St. John Chrysostom at the Synod of Oak. He is warning Cyril about how to behave and what people are saying about him; what he is not doing is attributing that motive to Cyril. Had a student of mine made such a mistake, he or she would have been awarded a ‘fail’. But it illustrates the way in which a polemicist differs from the genuine historian; the latter allows the sources to shape the narrative, the former shapes the sources around the agreed narrative. That so many later historians have accepted this without question tells us more about their biases than they should be comfortable with.
Gibbon’s account tells us more about him, and the limits of Enlightenment thought, than it does about Cyril and Ephesus. Gibbon, like many moderns, cannot understand why men thought the issues at stake were worth dying for; if we are to do so, we must investigate Cyril’s thought and the context in more depth. It is to that I shall turn tomorrow and for the rest of the week.
Steven said:
It is amazing to me how badly secular historians, commentators, or news reporters, tend to misunderstand religion and mangle the facts or interpretation of the facts in their attempts to speak on the subject matter. Postliberal theologian George Lindbeck believed that any given faith system can only be properly understood in accordance with its own internal logic; he was fond of relating religious faiths to narrative, and referring to this internal logic as the ‘grammatical rules’ of a religion. Get that wrong, and you’ll always misunderstand whatever religious faith you’re trying to speak of. It’s much easier to impose our own assumptions on faith systems we don’t understand.
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chalcedon451 said:
Thank you, Steven, and I quite agree.
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Nicholas said:
That sounds rather like Wittgenstein’s approach to religious language: “surface grammar” and “depth grammar”. Of course, he was a non-cognitivist, while I take a cognitivist line. The two positions are mutually exclusive on a number of points, but not all.
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NEO said:
Outstanding. It strikes me that many, make that all of us, would be wise to temper our words in line with St.Isadore, for truly Gibbon has far too many followers in our world.
And yes, that is a weakness in our world, far too many see nothing worth dying for, and it follows as night follows day, that therefore they also find nothing worth living for.
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chalcedon451 said:
Good points Neo.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
Religions.
This Roman State Run Religion has left a 1700 yr long trail of horror and death and suffering in calculable in its wake, and continues to leave suffering in its wake. The devotees of this religion say that protestants started their own religion. The devotees don’t like to remember that the first protestants were catholics, and monks and priests at that. The first protestants were fed up with the false doctrine and wickedness of the Roman state religion. Cathols to this day look down on those who left this murderous cult of personality.
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NEO said:
You know, Bosco, you like me, have been here for nearly 5 years. In that time we have covered many areas of importance to us all in matters religious, political, and personal. We have all learned many things, except you. You are still spouting the dozen talking points that you were back in 2012. You have grown very wearisome, and while for a time you were a source of amusement, for most of us that ended about 3 years ago. Now you simply are an impediment to intelligent people who come here to discuss thing of importance. I’d suggest you either shut up and begin to learn from others, or simply shut up.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
I stayed on topic.
Everything I said is fact.
So, what should I learn from you, good brother? One cant learn their way into heaven.
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chalcedon451 said:
Try learning how to think. That way, you might save yourself from the demon who uses your pride to hold you in his grip whilst you spout the same nonsense you have done from the beginning. You have convinced no one, and that is because no Christian here will listen to your gospel as it is not the one of Jesus we find in Scripture.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
When I do mention the CCs record on human rights, I make it short, not as I used to do with a long and grisly detailed description, mainly because the consensus is….that they have my speech memorized by now. I try not to be a complete bore.
Everyone in here has a firm belief in Christ, so I don’t get to use my arguments in favor of God existing, like I do in other public forums. or my scientific knowledge for proof of God.
let me assure you, its never pleasant informing someone that their religion isn’t worth the paper in its guide books. Its never received joyfully.
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chalcedon451 said:
And where does the idea of ‘human rights’ come from? You can’t evidence it outside of the teaching of the Church. That it has not always lived up to its teaching is a fact, so is the fact you have not lived a perfect life, so if you are going to use that argument, you damn yourself.
Those of us in God’s Church take your flim-flam for the nonsense it is, and though it is hard not to laugh at you, we try our best.
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chalcedon451 said:
There is no ‘Roman state run religion’. There is a Church founded by Jesus which he founded on Peter and which he said would ensure to the end. You are not part of it, you preach another gospel.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
“you spout the same nonsense you have done from the beginning.”
I assume I was on the topic here?
In defense of myself, im willing to wager that you have repeated that your church was founded by jesus on Peter, at least 5 times more than I have preached on any one of the dozen topics you all say I repeat.
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chalcedon451 said:
I have, and you have never addressed it except to deny it with argument of no weight. The facts are simple. You cannot show me one example of any Apostle, including Paul, who spoke as you did, of being definitely ‘saved’ once and for all, with no chance of losing that salvation. I can evidence that Jesus founded a Church and that it still exists. You have no arguments, you simply deny the facts. This is not an argument, it is a flight from reality.
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Nicholas said:
It is a shame that George Berkeley didn’t write the history instead. As a God-loving man, he puts a much better face on the Enlightenment, as does John Locke. If we had listened to Locke, Catholics would have been treated a lot better and we would have been further on the road to reconciliation. As it is, we had to go through the Oxford Movement. For that matter, if atheists had been shown tolerance we might have got more honesty out of Hume, which might have done everyone a world of good.
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NEO said:
I don’t entirely disagree with you, but Locke’s toleration for Catholics had decided limits, as did the American founder’s (who based a lot of things on Locke). It’s hard to see how it could have been different in Stuart England, really. It would have struck me as entirely prudent to keep an eye on Catholics in those years.
Things have, of course, changed in the last 300 years, and now Catholics are not a civil threat, and their defense of Christianity as it has always been practiced is very welcome.
Sorry though about atheists, I’m willing to show them just about as much toleration as they have for Christianity, and that ain’t much. They are quickly becoming the Catholics of the 21st century, the enemy of a free people. Rightly or not, that is what they show in public.
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Nicholas said:
Alas, I’m tempted to agree. I am particularly disturbed by the Alt Left. When an atheist like Sam Harris can’t get a hearing from his own constituency, it’s time to call it a day. This zeitgeist increasingly provokes me to hang an “Out to lunch” sign on my imaginary door.
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NEO said:
I know, I’m not pleased to say what I did, but increasingly the whole intolerance of the left is clanging alarm bells in my mind. Mind, there are indeed atheists on the right as well, but many of them are so busy trying to denigrate Christianity that whatever their other beliefs (often parallel with mine, in fact) become irrelevant.
Not unlike Stuart England, in fact, a question of whether their allegiance was higher to England or their church, not really provable either way.
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Nicholas said:
Agreed, both our countries are in serious trouble. St Paul was right when he described moral decay in Romans. Not that I can throw stones, but still you can just feel the gears grinding everywhere, like there’s going to be a sudden jerk. I don’t like to think about what it’ll be like when that happens.
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NEO said:
Me either, but yes, it is very troubling, and I’m rather afraid the wheels will come off, and suddenly, at that.
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Nicholas said:
Yes, there seems to be a general assault on truth itself. We’re swimming in relativism – disgusting.
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NEO said:
It is quite disgusting. I saw a survey this morning of Millennials (American I presume, but UK usually tracks pretty well), what it showed, is what so many of us have been saying, they have never been taught either history or critical thinking, and so, in many cases, are not able to even see the cognitive dissonances they believe.
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