It is clear to anyone examining the history of Christianity that our understanding of the ‘faith once delivered’ deepens and develops. The word ‘Trinity’ appears in the Bible as often as the words ‘the New Testament Canon’, and yet the Church would, and does, say that both are critical parts of our Faith. We all (I hope) read Scripture and reflect upon its meaning, and being fallen beings, we can all come up with interpretations which, to us, are plausible; but say, for example, that, like Arius, we come up with the idea that Jesus was, as the Son of God, a creature, and not God? We can, as Arius did, provide reasons for this view, and we can convince ourselves we are right. It is only if we are willing to submit our judgment to that of another authority that orthodoxy can be maintained. We might, of course, care not a jot for orthodoxy and be firmly convinced that where all previous generations,and most of this generation of Christians have erred, we alone are right, but that way lies chaos, and a house built on sand will not stand. But what authority do we accept?
One of the most attractive aspects of the form Anglicanism I grew up with was that it was dynamic; it expected us to grow in the Lord. The idea that the faith was delivered once for all to the Apostles is directly from the Scriptures, but our history tells us that we (Christians) did not understand it all at once, or even over a few years. indeed, surely one of the points of Paul’s letters is that even those converted by him through the Spirit, did not ‘get it’, and even when they did, some of them fell away. That was why the letters were written; it was why they were kept; it is why we read them to this day.
Yet. St. Peter himself acknowledged that they were not always easy to understand, and warned us that some people, in their attempt to do so, had twisted his words. So, from the beginning, the Spirit guided Christians; indeed we might even say that that is why God inspired Scripture itself, so that we should have God’s word to hand. But Scripture does not verify itself or validate itself or explain itself.
We might turn to an Ecumenical Council, but no more than Scripture, does an ecumenical council verify itself. No one said before Nicaea or Ephesus that this was going to be an ecumenical council, and the Orthodox are right to say that only when it is accepted by the people and bishops as such is a Council ecumenical.
We might go to the maxim of St. Vincent Lerins, which tells us that orthodoxy is what has been believed everywhere at all times by everyone, but that will not quite do either, as it does not answer the question of development. Before the Church developed the theology of the Trinity, one might claim that it was inherent in Scripture and therefore has always been believed by everyone, but that begs the question about what ‘everyone’ understood, or understands, by ‘Trinity’?
In the West, the office of the papacy developed to fill this need, with Leo the Great, as we saw yesterday, claiming that that his interpretation of the Petrine claims inhered in Scripture. By the eleventh century the Christian East was unwilling to concede the level of development claimed by Rome, not least when it came to changes in the wording of the Nicene Creed. But the Great Schism did not provide the East with an answer to the question of authority, and it has not help an ecumenical council. The Reformation in Europe was a rejection by some, of Rome’s claims, but it did not fill the gap either; indeed it opened the way to every man claiming personal infallibility.
It may be that modern man needs no authority other than his own, but historically this has not been the case. That is not to say that the existence of the Pope and the Magisterium creates a trouble-free attitude to authority (as any reading of some of the comments on this blog alone would testify), but it is to say it is the least worst option we have evolved.
Bosco the Immaculate said:
Authority.
The Holy father and his magisterium all put their dresses on one leg at a time.
One deserves what one gets if they follow those costumes and their great swelling claims. its just a shame that they bring their children along to be fed to those wolves.
There is no private interpretation of scriptures. No one has exclusive rights to the bible and its message. Don’t be fooled by groups who claim they alone have a hotline to god. That’s the oldest scam in the books.
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chalcedon451 said:
None of which has anything to do with anything I wrote, Bosco. You seem to be incapable of doing anything but repeating your script. Have you ever tried using the brain God gave you?
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
that begs the question about what ‘everyone’ understood, or understands, by ‘Trinity’?
In the West, the office of the papacy developed to fill this need
I said above, and ill say it again, that no scripture is of any private interpretation. I think that is keeping with the subject.
I expect people to believe what their religion tells them to believe. It doesn’t make one a bad person. It doesn’t make one saved either.
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chalcedon451 said:
Do you actually think before putting finger to keyboard? The first sentence makes no sense. when Peter says no Scripture is of private interpretation he means that it is subject to the opinion of the Church, not an individual view.
You have a religion, it is called Boscoism, and you claim for yourself more infallibility than any Pope has claimed. And yet, poor thing, you seem unable to read or reason. Still rely on your own readings and interpretation perhaps you alone are right – but what a risk to take with your immortal soul.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
Claim No 243; ….the catholic church changes not.
The Rev. David Medow won’t be coming alone when he transfers in June to Notre Dame Catholic Church from Mary Immaculate Parish in Plainfield. Medow is one of an estimated 150 to 200 married Roman Catholic priests nationwide
https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/b70e8330-d7a6-3ece-a15f-3e27c34f57ab/ss_new-notre-dame-priest-coming.html
I cant wait until Vaticanus Hill allows female priests.I mean, the CC already allows pimps, thieves, muggers murderers, homos, pedophiles, adulterers and liars into its priestcraft. Its about time to let in the other half of humanity….namely females.
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chalcedon451 said:
Is there something lurking here that requires an answer, or are you just ranting?
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
It does not require an answer. I read somewhere that Rome will never change its position.
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chalcedon451 said:
Let us see, Bosco. When Judas killed himself, the Apostles wanted a successor. We know from Acts and from Paul that the early Church had leaders who were the successors of the Apostles. I am sure we could all adopt modern American practice, but I can’t see where Jesus approves of it. If it were so, why did He found a Church and why did the Apostles want people to take their disputes to the Church. Still waiting for you to show us all where the NT shows a group of individuals not operating as part of the Church with links to the Apostles.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
My friend, the saved are direct links to apostles. Since Mary at the tomb, who told the first person whe met that the Lord has risen, from there someone told someone and someone told someone, all the way to me. Even as much as the Roman State run religion tried to stamp this out, its efforts have not prevailed. The Ceasars tried, then when it was obvious that they were losing that battle, they attempted to join them.
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chalcedon451 said:
That is your opinion. Can you provide a verse from the Bible supporting it? The election of Matthias seems to contradict what you say.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
Who told the person who told me that the Lord has risen?
The message I received was the same message good brother Paul used to give, and it was the same message good brother Peter gave at pentacost.
I don’t know what this religion you joined has done to you.
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chalcedon451 said:
It was not the same message, because brother Paul went and consulted the leaders of the Church. I don’t recall you doing this.
Your problem, Bosco, is you say you know Scripture, but you don’t, you know some verses whoah someone had told you support your position, which means when someone else has a better argument, you have none and so end up ranting.
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Rob said:
I think the successor for Judas is a poor argument C. Specific reasons and credentials were given that could not apply in any sub-apostolic age. Additional apostles did not have to meet these criteria but neither were they successors of any other apostles they were appointed directly by the risen Christ or prophetic calling.
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chalcedon451 said:
And yet we know from the early Fathers that the Church continued to appoint successors. There is no record of anyone describing treating the successors of the Apostles as a novelty. It was universal in the Church, both the Catholics and the Orthodox retain the tradition. On what grounds do churches founded later abandon it? It seems to be a historically-blind reading of Acts.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
What is a successor? The great Jimi Hendrix says…..Im the one who has to die when its time for me to die. each man is responsible for himself.
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chalcedon451 said:
A successor is just that. Someone in the direct line of succession. We know this was a criterion used in the early Church.
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Nicholas said:
I certainly don’t think it fair to complain that the liturgical churches use vestments unless one follows up said complaint with a further argument explaining what is bad about it – which presumably would be the priesthood of all believers point. Personally I have never been fond of Rome’s use of the word “sacerdos” to render the Greek “presbys/presbyter”, but if you want to make the claim then vestments make sense – they’re following the pattern of Aaron and the Levites.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
Levites were the only priest class. But they have been done away with at the cross. Imposters now dress up as holymen. And we see their fruit all across the newspapers.
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Nicholas said:
That is the argument you should be making. If you want C to take you seriously, then you should present a reasoned argument along those lines.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
Do you think he will entertain the simplicity of scripture? Why doesn’t he know this already?
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chalcedon451 said:
Because Peter himself admitted Scripture wasn’t ‘simple’ Bosco. Just quote me where any Apostle or Gospel writer says each individual is competent to interpret Scripture alone? That you utterly misunderstand that passage from Peter shows, in itself, it isn’t possible for an individual to get it all right by himself – though to be fair, you do show it is possible for someone who neither reads not thinks to get most of it wrong by himself. Still, it is your immortal soul you are putting in peril.
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Nicholas said:
Well, I won’t speak for C beyond my former point, but I think it is important to represent your position carefully if you are unsure about your audience’s familiarity with the subject matter. When I am making a point about Hebrew or Greek at the homegroup I attend, then I alter my communication – I don’t speak in the same way as I would in an academic setting.
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chalcedon451 said:
I do wish he would take your advice and at least try to reason. I charitably suppose he does not realise that he is not really engaging with the argument at all – others took the view he was a troll, but I think that too harsh.
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Nicholas said:
This is the problem with this format (or acting or psychopathy), you can’t easily tell. To be fair, it is a lot of work to lay out an argument in full and I certainly don’t do it all the time, but you can find pieces on here where I clearly have used number points to make my argument as clear and logically-fluent as possible. Arguments will of course rely on other arguments to establish the truth of claims they rely upon.
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chalcedon451 said:
Indeed, and I do wish Bosco would try. Too often he seems to repeat the same tired old cliches.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
Good brother Nicholas, its not just good brother Chalcedon im talking to, but any person who is searching for his maker. The Word of God doesn’t come back void, but does what it was supposed to do. other read my words. The catholic dogma has nipped any reasoned response in the bud. If its not Catholic dogma, its false. I was raised in churches that left us open to the call of Christ. When I got the call, I believed it was from Christ. I didn’t tell the person talking with me that my religion forbids me from listening to her.
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chalcedon451 said:
Now Bosco, that is simply unfair. Where have I ever said to you ‘that is Catholic dogma and that’s the end of the argument’?
I have never queried your story, simply asked you to show me where, in the NT, we are told it is the model for us all?
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
No man came to the Father but by me…..Jesus.
isn’t that the model for us all?
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chalcedon451 said:
Yes, but that has to be read in context. What did Paul do, he went to see the Apostles. He didn’t just say he’d had a vision and was operating on his own. That’s the point.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
Matt 16. You just read one sentence and omit what was above it and what was below it. now you scream…Context. you false religion people kill me (;-D
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chalcedon451 said:
No, I don’t. What comes before and after does not include Jesus revoking his statement that Peter is the rock.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
Well good brother Nicholas, do you see where reasoned response gets me with good brother Chalcedon?
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chalcedon451 said:
I can’t actually see where you have put a reasoned response Bosco. You have offered your opinion without once engaging with any of my facts.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
That’s because I am assuming you already know all the verses I will quote in defense of my position. Repeating them is embarrassing because it assumes you never read them or forgot them which means im educating you for the first time about scripture, which isn’t the case. It assumes that I think you don’t know the passages and it makes me look ridiculous because I should know better.
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chalcedon451 said:
Every single one has been refuted with arguments. You have never come back with an argument, you simply repeat the verses as though your interpretation is the only possible one.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
I beg to differ with you, good brother. I take the verses at face value. No interpreting them to say something else. You even seem to think when I take them at face value that in interpreting them.
Call no man on this earth your Father.
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chalcedon451 said:
If we took that literally, how would anyone understand what it meant to call God ‘the Father’ – literally, the word would have died out.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
Now see who is interpreting scripture? Jesus gave us example. he called his mother “woman” because she was just a woman, another woman. When jesus said that pasky phrase, he was talking about religious holymen, who love titles. Remember, context ol boy. But its clear he meant to call no man Father.
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chalcedon451 said:
My point is that you are wrong to say that Scripture interprets itself.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
Well, if you say so. heres my experience….. I didn’t know what happened to me. When I was led to others, we all had the same story and the scriptures all said the same thing to each of us. And we all believed the same things befor we even met, that’s because the one we all met was the same person. We would meet in someones home or in a building owned by calvary chapel. Im sitting next to older people, straights, businessmen, lawyers, geeks….we all have had it happen to us. We were all equally grateful for being picked up out of the fire. theres no way I can fall back into a ritualist dead dry religion. its impossible.
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chalcedon451 said:
Fair enough. Where we differ is that my experience of Jesus does not lead me to condemn others trying to lead a Christian life as it had been revealed to them.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
people think I condemn the person when I shine a light on their religion and its practices and dogmas. When a policeman arrests you, its not because of who you are…its because of what you did.
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Nicholas said:
If I may, I think where Bosco is going wrong is the register. He and I are actually quite similar in a number of our beliefs, but I think I tend to write on here more consciously about the fact that my conclusions come from a wellspring of a priori assumptions that predetermine how I interact with the text. These assumptions will not always be shared by Catholics, which is the point that C is making here. Because we are both coming from different paradigms (to use Kuhn’s method), we could, following Kuhn, “both be right in our own terms”. If we are to get out of this loop, we will have to make fulfil two objectives (at least):
1. Make much more explicit our a priori framework.
2. Make a case for why the framework best explains the data.
Obviously our Christian lives are more than this – they are about an actual relationship with God, which necessarily includes feelings – but this aim to structure our material well should be a kind of “mission statement” for the blog, especially as we are all capable of this. I know full well that Bosco and C understand the philosophical terms and methods and we three would all agree on their limitations – we can all affirm that man’s wisdom is as foolishness to God and God’s foolishness is sublime wisdom to man.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
Good brother Nicholas, I see the wisdom of your words. Good brother Chalcedon has been trying to get that message across to me too. I shall make every effort from now on to make a reasoned response. In defense of myself, I thought my past responses were reasonably reasonable. I can see how they could have been construed as hysterical knee jerks.
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chalcedon451 said:
Bosco, that is good news. Where some have asked you should be banned, I have never consented to that. I know you are sincere, and that what you say is what many say. But yes, it would be welcome if you tried to make the sort of reasoned argument I am sure you are capable of making 🙂
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
You are a brave soul. I like that in the british male mindset. Bravery. British explorers were the bravest of men. personally, I wont go anywhere where there isn’t a hotel.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
You have offered your opinion without once engaging with any of my facts….good brother Chalcedon says.
His main fact(the CCs claim) is that his dogma has been handed down directly from successors of Peter, and any other apostle. And the Pope is this successor who has complete knowledge of everything good brother Peter had.
I maintain that there hasn’t been and unbroken like of succession , and good brother Clacedon knows the reasons.
Ok assuming there was an unbroken line of good and godly apostles…..how did they transfere their data base from one to the other, seeing as how the CC claims they all have knowledge of Peter. Did they sit down with the next successor and go over everything with him?
How is this transfer of apostle like wisdom done?
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chalcedon451 said:
Again, no, that is not what I have said. What I say here, and have said throughout, is that what Christians have believed in the past has to be taken into account.
I have added that Paul wrote about oral and written tradition, and that the Evangelists wrote about the importance of the Church. It is the Church which is the repository of tradition, and yes, if you look at what the Fathers wrote and what the Church believes you can trace it all the way back.
I would add to that that this is something you cannot do, because you rely solely upon yourself.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
The next morning after I was born again, I grabbed the bible and it came alive. This wasn’t the effort of men or an organization. this was the Holy Ghost, who opened my eyes. the NT say the HS will teach us anything we need to know. I believe “all things” is how the scripture reads. Yes, I don’t need an organization to explain things. Anything I didn’t understand, theHS would get around to showing me. My god is a strong god. he does this for his children.
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chalcedon451 said:
I believe you, but there is no example of this in Scripture, so how can it be a general rule? What we see in the NT is converts coming into the Church, and the Evangelists stressing the importance of the right Gospel, saying not to receive another Gospel, even if an angel should bring it.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
that’s why I don’t own a catechism.
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chalcedon451 said:
But if there is no example in Scripture how can you say it is Biblical? It is your personal experience, but it is not Biblical in the sense that Scripture shows us examples of it.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
Good brother Paul is the best example. He was Mr Religion. He hated these followers of Jesus. He met the Lord on a dusty road. he never went back to that dead dry blasphemous religion again. Look what religion did to him. The religious people in here all cried for my head on a platter. I used to tell them they have a way out. Now, I leave them to their religion.
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chalcedon451 said:
Reread his story. He went to see the Apostles, he did not just say that he had had a revelation and could, on the basis of that, preach what he liked.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
Good brother paul told the story of salvation, from the Hebrews in Egypt to Christ and him crucified. that is the only story. im sorry, but your religion has so much extra, that it takes warehouses to contain the canons and lawyers to debate them and a court to convict people of breaking these endless religion laws. And a jail to toss the unfortunate into. You know, it takes all kinds to make the world go round.
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chalcedon451 said:
The early Church thought the Second Coming was happening soon. If you are following their example I assume you and your Calvary Chapel chums hold all good in common? If not, why not?
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
That is your opinion. Can you provide a verse from the Bible supporting it?
I suppose “it” is that there is an unbroken line from the person who told me the good news , all the way to Mary at the tomb.
The NT are collections of letters to people or churches that were started by the apostles. Those groups led others to the Lord. The letters are just that. A snapshot in time. zThey don’t explain how the gospel will keep going all the way to the yr 2000. But they do say it is the everlasting gospel. I have brought people to the Lord. they are children of the effort the of the girl who corralled me and gave me the good news. Im sure the ones I led have led others. it goes on like this until the rapturos. Do I really have to provide you with evidence?
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chalcedon451 said:
I told you, the Apostles elected a successor to Matthais, and the Evangelists write about the Church and how, if you have a dispute, you should take it to the Church. I have asked you to show where the same sources say you just take it by word of mouth some someone? There is no such place.
The NT is a set of books, some of which are Gospels and some of which are Epistles. They all talk about the Church and they all talk about the importance of following the right teaching. Not one of them says what you say – which is that you just read the book and it will all be clear.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
Following the right teaching. This is where I and Jesus differ from religious dogma. Jesus says that you think you have life in the scriptures. But the scriptures tell of Jesus. You wave the cardboard backed book around and kiss it but don’t have a personal relationship with Christ. if you did, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
By the way…I didn’t enter into the debate on Papal claims because I didn’t want to repeate the same ol things. Good brother Nicolas was doing a fine job in my stead.
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chalcedon451 said:
Indeed, but as I said to Nicholas, I think the interpretation offered is a strained one. I don’t say it is not possible, but I do query why it should be preferred to a simpler plain reading?
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chalcedon451 said:
Incidentally, I am going to write a post around this subject of debating for tomorrow.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
Im looking forward to it.
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chalcedon451 said:
Be interested in your views. Incidentally, like the new approach.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
Thanks. youre rite when you say you’ve heard it all befor. Me repeating it doesn’t help.
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