In an entirely characteristic fashion, Bosco’s response to yesterday’s post on the Canon ignored the main issue, and blundered into another:
My spirit is satisfied with the KJV. The Holy Ghost wouldn’t have put it in my hot little hands if it want good. I don’t know anything about these other books you talk about. But I do know about the 7 books that aren’t in the KJV that are in the Doughy Reims catholic bible.
Of all the oddities, devotion to the King James Bible as the only edition is one of the oddest. Its prose is majestic, and I like it a great deal, but no one who knew anything about translations would claim it is the most accurate translation available. When Bosco praises it for leaving out what Protestants call ‘the Apocrypha’, he raises another question about authority. Those books are in the original codices of the Bible, as one would expect, since they were based on the Septuagint, which many Jews in the diaspora used. The same Church which authorised leaving out books such as ‘Hermas’ authorised keeping those books in the Canon. In effect, Bosco is telling us he was happy to leave the decision about what the word of God is to a set of translators in seventeenth century England. Now, as an English patriot, I am familiar with the idea that God is an Englishman, but this takes the idea rather far. The notion that before the seventeenth century – and after – only those who could read English had proper access to the word of God is surely so absurd that not even Bosco could mean what he wrote.
For the Orthodox and the Catholics, there are points of difference, but we agree on Scripture (indeed the Orthodox would add some books which the Western Church has not accepted). Scripture here is defined not by what a committee of scholars decided on in the seventeenth century, but by what the early Church received. Suppose, then, that the Church is, as it is, competent to define Scripture, are we to suppose it incapable of interpreting what it defined? The simple notion that Scripture interprets itself is disproved by history; indeed there were, as his letters attest, those who were willing to tell St John that he had not understood what Jesus had meant. John’s letters suggest that his own church was unable to cohere, with individuals claiming inspiration by the Spirit; that set a pattern.
One of the reasons that the Catholic Church has cohered is that in the successor of Peter, it has a source of authority. . It has been careful not to over do this, although from time to time there have been those who wanted to make large claims about the areas in which the Pope was infallible. From time to time, too, there have been those determined to imitate the dissidents in St John’s church; but the centre has held. Again, the Church has not made extravagant clams about how every verse of Scripture is to be read, but it reserves the right to say which interpretations run counter to what has always been held. An unexciting and conservative approach, when compared to the claims made by individuals who feel entitled to claim for themselves more infallibility in interpreting Scripture than the Church, which tells us what is and is not Scripture, but then the Church speaks to the ages, not to an age, and it speaks with the authority of its founder.
This, of course, does not mean that there are not those within the Church who think they know what developments there need to be, but it does mean that there is a sheet-anchor attached to them, and any attempts to tamper with what has been received from the beginning. Some will always find this conservatism a reason for breaking off and doing their own thing. For a while such movements survive, and even thrive, but in the end, they wither and perish; but the barque of St Peter sails on, barnacles and all. It knows whence the Canon came, and it guards it against novel claims, however ingenious; even those which might come from the obiter dicta of the odd Pope .
” Now, as an English patriot, I am familiar with the idea that God is an Englishman.”
I could have swore a German once told me God was a German…
Ha!
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Those Germans 😊
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Bravo Bravo. Wonderful insight on the subject. Since when did King James become a spiritual leader? Great job.
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Thank you.
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Excuse me, I have to sneeze…….AAAHHhhhhhhTorquemadaCCCHHHhOoOooooooooo. The wind must have blown something in.
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One of the reasons that the Catholic Church has cohered is that in the successor of Peter, it has a source of authority. …(;-D
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I like this bit of the Westminster Confession (1646) on Scripture: “All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all; yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed, for salvation, are so clearly propounded and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them.”
I approve of using both the Deuterocanon and the Apocrypha, provided sufficient care is taken regarding the application. For example, was there really a woman called Judith who killed a Persian called Holofernes? Not sure – but there is still a moral lesson there, and the story is a recapitulation of Yael and Sisera found in Judges or Joshua (I forget which), which everyone agrees is canon.
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Is the catholic church a source of moral authority? What is the catholic church? Is it a building? Is it a group of men? Where does it go when the men die? One thing for sure is, that the catholic church in America has paid out 3 billion in damages for child rape.
Live by the graven image….die by the graven image.
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I am unsure there is a logical connection between the first part of this predictable rant and the second. The Catholic Church has a teaching authority inherited from Christ. If you are looking for a church without sinners, best of luck. Do you consider yourself without sin?
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Why do you and others always have to have a religion. one person in a blog recently said that the Church of Christ was the closest to pure biblical doctrine, so they joined it. You say I should look for a church. You went religion shopping. Why does it have to be a religion?
Whats wrong with a one on one walk with Jesus?
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Jesus tells us he founded a Church which would endure even against the gates of hell. I believe him, you explain away his words. That should help you work it out. If Jesus had wanted us to have a one on one walk with him without a church, he would have said so. He didn’t. I believe him. You? Well, clearly not.
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Look, I wasn’t out to be a holy roller, but jesus took me and gave me a spirit that knows him, and He didn’t lead me to no catholic church. its that simple. None, and I stress not one, of the saved people I know have remained in the web of the CC. Not one. Ex cathols all have the same story. the CC is the worsterest of all the false religions.
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So, you don’t believe Jesus founded a Church? Fine, but stop claiming to understand the Bible
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In effect, Bosco is telling us he was happy to leave the decision about what the word of God is to a set of translators in seventeenth century England.
When I read the bible, I see my friend Jesus all over it. It bares witness to its truth. My god is a strong god. He gave me a reliable book.
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Which he gave via the Church you spend much of your life slagging off. You may not see the inherent irony here, but to those of us who do, it is killingly amusing.
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A June 1966 CDF notification announced that, while the Index maintained its moral force, in that it taught Christians to beware, as required by the natural law itself, of those writings that could endanger faith and morality, it no longer had the force of ecclesiastical positive law with the associated penalties.[44](penalties like burning bible believers to death…thanks catholic church for that)
Decree of the Council of Toulouse (1229 C.E.): “We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books.”
Ruling of the Council of Tarragona of 1234 C.E.: “No one may possess the books of the Old and New Testaments in the Romance language, and if anyone possesses them he must turn them over to the local bishop within eight days after promulgation of this decree, so that they may be burned…”
Proclamations at the Ecumenical Council of Constance in 1415 C.E.: Oxford professor, and theologian John Wycliffe, was the first (1380 C.E.) to translate the New Testament into English to “…helpeth Christian men to study the Gospel in that tongue in which they know best Christ’s sentence.” For this “heresy” Wycliffe was posthumously condemned by Arundel, the archbishop of Canterbury. By the Council’s decree “Wycliffe’s bones were exhumed and publicly burned and the ashes were thrown into the Swift River.”
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And your point? You are living proof of how ignorant people can misread the Bible to their own damnation. No doubt you only care about yourself, but Christ’s Church cares about the souls of the faithful. You really are a hoot, you should change your avatar to an owl.
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The Vatican instructed Catholic bishops around the world to cover up cases of sexual abuse or risk being thrown out of the Church.
The Observer has obtained a 40-year-old confidential document from the secret Vatican archive which lawyers are calling a ‘blueprint for deception and concealment’. One British lawyer acting for Church child abuse victims has described it as ‘explosive’.
but Christ’s Church cares about the souls of the faithful
The Vatican started a office to deal with abuse cases and to prevent further crimes by priests. it appointed a lay person, a lady, forgot her name…and she quit in disgust because nothing was being done. Its was a joke of a dishonest attempt she said.
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None of this is news. As I asked earlier – are you a sinner?
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Amongst sinners I, Bosco the Immaculate, am chief.
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In which case why be surprised at other sinners? When did you earn the right to throw the first stone?
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but the barque of St Peter sails on, barnacles and all. It knows whence the Canon came, and it guards it against novel claims, however ingenious;
Like Mary floating up to heaven and having a throne in heaven and fighting the Devil.
Limbo.
Priests are “little Christs”
Pope is ruler of heaven hell and earth.
Its priests are celibate.
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Let us see shall we?
In the Old Testament monarchy the Queen of the Davidic Kingdom was the Queen Mother. That role is a prophetic type of the Kingdom role of Mary, just as the role of the Davidic King is a prophetic type of the Kingdom role of Jesus. Jesus inherited the Kingdom promised to David, who was told that one of his descendants would rule forever.This is why we believe Mary is Queen of Heaven. Sound scriptural basis, but then perhaps you don’t understand what you read?
Priests are the representatives of Christ, and the Pope inherits the powers Peter was given to bind and loose; all in the Bible Bosco.
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Peter healed people form any manner of sickness.
How come the successors of peter haven healed anyone? They are too busy shielding pedophile priests from the lawmen.
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I guess you don’t believe in miracles either? St John Paul II is only one of many sainted Popes – and to be a saint requires miracles. Give it up Bosco. You have no arguments, no accurate information, only Satan firing you up against Christ’s Church.
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Johnpaul Ii, oh yes, hes my favorite. I even own the franchise rights to his Penance Kits.
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As I say, when you resort to nonsense you are admitting you have nothing left in the locker.
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Ok, open your locker and relate how these saints healed people. Since the advent of news papers and then TV, no Pope has touched and healed anybody, Not one lousy little hangnail. Nothing. nada, zilch, zero.
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Just read up on it Bosco.
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Hell has enlarged its mouth for you barque of Peter believers. Not to leave out the other religions, 7th Dayers and Islam.
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but no one who knew anything about translations would claim it is the most accurate translation available.
The KJV is as
accurate as a heart attack. Every word. Cathols hate it because it exposes their church as the woman who rides the beast.Rev describes the catholic church in amazing detail.
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If you believe that Bosco, your ignorance is even greater than I had imagined. Here is a nice site of the sort you like:
http://www.bible.ca/b-kjv-only.htm
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7.Only a very tiny fraction of people who use the KJV actually believe that the translation process was inspired by the Holy Spirit.
http://www.bible.ca/b-kjv-only.htm
Matthew 7:13-14King James Version (KJV)
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
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Yes, and that gate is through the Church Jesus founded, not some walk on the wild side.
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is all them 1.2 billion cathols gonna fit on that narrow road? its a for sure most if not all your costumed holymen wont be on it.
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No one says all Catholics are saved. You should quit whist you are losing.
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Yes, and that gate is through the Church Jesus founded,
You should qualify that statement. Let me assist you…heres a more honest statement;
Yes. and that crap shoot is through the casino Jesus founded.
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When you have no arguments left you resort to random insults. Sad.
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Not all catholics are going to heaven you said. I call that a dice game. the holy ghost is not the author of confusion. the born again cant help but know they are born again. Ones eyes are opened and they see. Nothing is hidden anymore. We see religions for what they are…a bunch of nothing. We see everything. We see how wicked we really are. We see that our friends and family are headed to hell if they die unsaved. its a burden, but jesus made us promises that we can stand on, and im here to say Jesus doesn’t make false promises.
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Bosco, would it not be more honest to admit you are ignorant? It would save you having to prove it again and again.
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Im ignorant.
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But you could try reading and reflecting on what is written here and become better informed.
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Bosco, dear, you don’t fool anyone. We know that you rely on the Jack Chick Bible for Rather Dim People (translated from the Vulgate using Google Translate).
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Youre not fooling anyone anymore…good sister annie. Hhhhahahahahahah..gotcha
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As they have very different IP addresses, they seem to have fooled you.
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Whaaaa?
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‘Fraid so, Bosco.
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Then, you know who that rat fink Eccles really is. care to enlighten me good brother?
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No, I simply know the IP address, which tells me he and Annie are not the same person.
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Actually, it’s no secret that I am in France at the moment. Presumably Annie isn’t.
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Quite so.
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In the Old Testament monarchy the Queen of the Davidic Kingdom was the Queen Mother
the OT isn’t my strong point, since a lot of it is boring. can you give a verse or two about these queen mothers? Thanks in advance.
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Do some reading – try Kings.
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Thanks, ill do that and get back to you my brother.
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He also deposed Maacah, the mother* of King Asa, from her position as queen mother because she had made an obscene object for Asherah; Asa cut down this object, smashed it, and burnt it in the Wadi Kidron.
2 Chronicles, chapter 15
Im not finding anything positive about queen mothers as of yet. Odd that anyone would stake their salvation on scant and shabby evidence let alone build a religion around it. At least im expanding my knowledge of the OT.
Oh, by the way, graven images in Kings and Chronicles were always a bad thing hated by god. Nothing positive about images.
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All our salvation rested on this: ‘And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.’
You, and you alone, seem to think God raped Mary and that because the verse does not contain the word ‘yes’ it does not mean she gave her assent.
By the way, on images, God forbad their worship, not their creation – see his instructions for the design of the Ark of the Covenant. A shame you don’t know your Bible very well, Bosco.
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God had the Ark built. OK. I don’t get the connection as to men making images of men.
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Exodus 25.
Yes, im beginning to see the direct connection. God commands us to make an Ark, which is an image. God commands us to make images of men.
Thou shall make for yourselfs as many images of men as you like, as long as thou do not worship them as gods.
Now I see.
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Yes, you can create great art to celebrate God, but do not, as people in the ancient world did, treat them as objects of worship.
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The connection is that God does not, as you seem to think, ban all images. He bans worshipping them, something most other people understand.
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I fancy myself as an artist, of sorts. I try to do oil on canvas. I have zero formal training, and it glaringly shows. My paintings look like a drunken monkey slid around on the canvas. I have no problem with art….even religious art. Except religious art that is twisted which misleads the simple of mind. What do I consider safe religious art? …..a burning bush (harmless) a nativity scene9as long as Mary isn’t dresses as a nun). Pictures of Jesus are misleading and dangerous.
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That’s your opinion, to which, of course, you are entitled. What you’re not entitled to do is claim God agrees with you.
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1 Kings 14:21-28
21 And Rehoboam the son of Solomon reigned in Judah. Rehoboam was forty-one years old when he began to reign, and he reigned seventeen years in Jerusalem, the city which the Lord did choose out of all the tribes of Israel, to put his name there. And his mother’s name was Naamah an Ammonitess.
22 And Judah did evil in the sight of the Lord, and they provoked the Lord to jealousy with their sins which they had committed, worse than their fathers had done
23 For they also built high places, and images, and groves, on every high hill, and under every green tree.
24 And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the Lord cast out before the children of Israel.
Gosh, nothing positive about these queen mothers still.` Still nothing positive about images either. Sodomites and images.. seems god really hates them.
HHmmmmmm. Where can we find tons of images and cabals of sodomites in the world today? Hhhhhmmmmmm, its on the tip of my tongue. Must have slipped my mind.
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Bosco, here is a link. Warning, it is very long and has big words in it. It actually requires you to read it. I shall know by your comment whether you have done your homework.
Click to access Mary-the-Queen-Mother.pdf
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I cant get my computer to open the document. ive tried everything. Im sure the document is convincing evidence of Marys throne in heaven. All those big words and all.
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