One of the things most commonly said to me by way of criticism of Christians is that they seem to have a hard time getting along with each other; or, as Bosco here often puts it, they say ‘my church is better than yours’. It is natural that someone belonging to a church should think that – indeed, if one pauses for a moment, how astonishing would it be to argue that one was in such and such a church because one thought it in some way inferior to others!
This little reflection was prompted by some characteristically forthright comments from ginny, in the comments section of my last post. Let’s parse it. She begins where I would begin:
Jesus Christ founded a Church. He stated He would do such when He said, “thou are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church….” He spoke to a man, St. Peter, in front of the other Apostles, witnesses to God swearing to do something in the future that all would see and appointing St. Peter the head of that Church that He would and did build. All the Apostles gathered knew His intent and acknowledged these facts in the way they lived their lives as the first Christians in the Church whose “birthday” is the first Pentecost. Jesus swore that the gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church and they haven’t for 2,000 years. These are just some of the facts.
Thus far, thus good. She goes on in equally confident vein, moving from ‘facts’ to what the current POTUS might call ‘fake facts’:
King Henry VIII founded a church. It is called the Church of England, the Anglican Church and a few other names, including Episcopalian. Its “birthday” I reckon is the the date of the Act of Supremacy in 1534. Quibble if you will about the date, it is still a good 15 centuries AFTER the Ascension of Jesus into Heaven and the fall of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles at Pentecost. There was no such raining down from Heaven of the Holy Spirit upon King Henry or his court at that time. God did not found the Church of England – a man did – Henry VIII, King of England.
Why is this inaccurate? It is a partisan interpretation, offered by Roman Catholics who, quite naturally, opposed what Henry was doing. But did Henry set out to ‘found a Church’? No, and even were ginny more learned than she is in Henrician studies, she would be unable to find a single document which states what she asserts with all the confidence of someone who thinks they have a ‘killer fact’, when in fact they have damp squib. Henry set out to reform the Church, a task prompted, certainly, by needs of his own, but at no point did he think he was founding a Church. In the nineteenth century the Vatican declared that Anglican orders were null and void, but then, of course, one might have expected that. But does that mean that the Roman Catholic Church takes the view that its members are the only ones entitled to the name of Christian? The answer is not what I suspect ginny thinks it is, and so I quote from Dominus Iesus:
17. Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him. The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches. Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.
On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery, are not Churches in the proper sense; however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church. Baptism in fact tends per se toward the full development of life in Christ, through the integral profession of faith, the Eucharist, and full communion in the Church.”
So the Church takes a position of mercy here. There is only one True Church, but there are Churches (the Orthodox) which are not in communion with that Church; this does not mean the Orthodox Church is not a Church. There are other groups of Christians who, unlike the Orthodox, have not preserved the essentials of a valid Church, but these ‘ecclesial communities’ contain Christians.
The polemicist divides, the Church seeks to unite. We win the hearts and minds – and souls – of no one by assuming a position of superiority in such matters. The Church is the field hospital for sinners – and since that is all of us, its doors stand permanently open.
The “Brothers Karamazov” and its discussion of the problem of evil comes to mind. Sometimes, with all of this stuff, and I suppose I am guilty of my own polemicism, I feel like chucking the whole thing in. For the sake of consistency, at times it seems preferable to cross over to Hell and shake one’s fist at the holy ones. But that accomplishes nothing, and it is a conceit – there is just as much, if not more, inconsistency in the darkness as there is in the Church. One can’t help but wonder why God decided to build a community out of humans…and then one remembers: Grace. I refer my learned brothers and sisters to Paul’s Epistle to the Romans.
LikeLiked by 3 people
As far as I know, the problem of evil is no problem. Its origin is from one of three sources as Christ has said: the world, the flesh, and the devil. Discernment is the ability to know from which source your trouble comes so as to address efficiently. We pray to be delivered from evil, but sometimes God uses it to temper us. St. Peter calls it a trial by fire, 1 Ptr. 4:12. Look it up yourself. I gotta get to bed. God bless. Ginnyfree.
LikeLike
We are all tempted to chuck it in from time to time Nicholas. Taking up one’s cross daily is very hard; but when I am tempted, I remember St Peter’s words: “Where else would we go?” Once you have encountered Christ every other leader and creed shrivels and turns to dust.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Its all about the BIG C and the little c.
When I talk about the Baptist’s church, I’m talking about a group of people calling themselves a church. When I talk about the Church Christ founded, I’m speaking the truth about the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and so must capitalize the title as it deserves. There is no other Church and trying to elevate other Christian communities to Communion with the Church by fooling around with the lettering will not confer Apostolic Succession upon nor validate their Orders or reconcile them to Rome.
I know it is very PC to blur the lines a bit these days so as to lend an air of oneness between us, but it still doesn’t make us One. Besides that, if you polled all the people that such blurring has brought closer to union in appearance, they’d inform you that they don’t want to become Roman Catholics nor do they want others to think they are now reconciled to us. They are fine where they are.
One other thing, then I gotta get to bed. God isn’t fooled by smoke and mirrors, nor am I.
God bless. Ginnyfree.
LikeLike
Presumably Ginny, you accept what Pope Benedict XVI wrote in Dominus Jesus? i.e making a distinction between the Churches (Catholic and Orthodox) which have a valid Apostolic Succession and other Christian ‘ecclesial communities’ like the Anglicans? I can’t see what you object to in what Chalcedon writes. Pope Benedict got some stick from some Anglicans for writing as he did. Not all Christians are Catholics; but all Catholics are Christian (even if they don’t always behave as such…)
LikeLiked by 1 person
Okay. I’m back. The coffee is ready and yummy. There is a slight and subtle distortion in C’s interpretation of the words of Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI. He would have us believe that a partial union with us is enough. It isn’t. One is either fully Catholic in belief and practice or one is outside of the Church and to keep oneself separated from the Church is also to keep oneself separated from Christ, the head of our Church.
It is well known that those who reside outside of Communion with Rome are in various states of separation. Those who are called Orthodox are firstly still separated from Communion with the one true Church, the Catholic Church. They have valid Orders but the exercise of them is totally illicit. They also dissent in certain matters of faith and discipline. The discipline is not as gravely irregular as the doctrinal issues. Those who reside in them are risking their eternal salvation by remaining apart from the Catholic Church. Outside the Church, there is no Salvation.
There are four marks of the Church. This is basic stuff. Chalcedon knows this too, so his denials of it are weird. They are unity, sanctity, universality and apostolicity. There are also two others that are important, visibility and infallibility. Without these marks, there is not true Church. This is fundamental to Christian theology. You can deny them all you want, but they won’t go away.
God bless. Ginnyfree.
LikeLike
Re-read what Dominus Jesus says, not what you think it ought to say. Where does it say the exercise of Orthodox orders is illicit? It doesn’t, you do; who is most likely to be correct, ginny or Cardinal Ratzinger?
LikeLiked by 1 person
You are sounding more ‘Catholic’ than Pope Benedict, Ginny. Having been raised as a Catholic in the 1950s I also know the Penny Catechism. Why do you think Chalcedon became a Catholic? On the question of Outside the Church there is no salvation (Numbers 847-8 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church):”Those who through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – these too may achieve eternal salvation.” It also states re the Orthodox Churches that “this communion is so profound that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.” Why some people are given the grace to know the fullness of Truth and others aren’t is a mystery, known only to God. At the end of that marvellous novel by Georges Bernanos, the dying priest says “Grace is everywhere…” Sometimes we Catholics are tempted to stop the Holy Spirit blowing where it listeth.
LikeLiked by 1 person
“…..these too may achieve eternal salvation.” Note the word MAY in the sentence. Is this good enough for Jesus? Let all those about you live in ignorance, lacking the Word that resides in you so the MAY attain eternal salvation. Maybe. The proverbial snowflake’s chance in Hell. More snowflakes go to Hell then I guess. God bless. Ginnyfree.
LikeLike
Again, whilst your opinion is always interesting, you are not saying what the Church says. Perhaps you think you know better? You’d not be the first or the last to suppose you know better than it.
LikeLike
There is no conflict between what the Church proposes in the Catechism and the mind of Christ. Of course ‘may’ isn’t the same as ‘will’ – and we know that Christ wills the salvation of all men, subject to their free-will. This comment of yours sounds like nit-picking (and writing ‘God bless’ after a dismissive and peremptory comment doesn’t go down well; I am happy to do without it, thanks). Please stop treating Chalcedon and myself as the enemy; we are Catholics too, happy to debate and argue the case, but in a spirit of fraternal charity. We can all learn from each other.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Everyone knows their Sacraments are illicit. Valid but illicit. Even they will admit that fact except they usually qualify it by saying it is us Romans who insist on the illicit part. You can do better than this. God bless. Ginnyfree.
LikeLike
‘Everyone knows’ is the last resort of the person who cannot prove their point. The OC does not say its Sacraments are illicit, what a very peculiar thing to say. You may say it, and as they are, from our point of view in Schism, we may not partake of their Sacraments, but the OC remains a true Church. The Magisterium says so. Do you concur with the Magisterium and admit the OC is a true Church. Yes or no will do.
LikeLike
I had conflated the word ‘reform’ used by you about Henry, with the work of true reformers like Cardinal Pope and the saints of the Counter-Reformation.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Yes, that word ‘reform’ ended up being abused. It is such a shame that men like Luther could not restrain themselves. But heresy wants what it wants now and is not prepared to wait – led to most of the schisms, and such a shame.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Chalcedon, is it accurate to state that Henry set out ‘to reform the Church’? Certainly he didn’t want or attempt to ‘found a Church’; but ‘reform’? What would St John Fisher think of this? – and he, as well as Cardinal Pole, saw there was a great need for reform. A Jesuit writer, Fr Paul Crane, once wrote that Henry was motivated by a mixture of “lust and loot”: ‘lust’ because he wanted his marriage annulled so that he could marry Anne Boleyn; ‘loot’ because he had his eye on the wealth of the monasteries. I know he started out as a good Catholic, even to being called Defender of the Faith in the book he wrote on the Eucharist (with much help from St Thomas More) – but surely, by the time he was determined to get rid of Catherine he wasn’t thinking of ‘reform’ (though of course people like Cranmer were. Isn’t it more likely that he unleashed forces unwittingly, which then took control?
LikeLiked by 1 person
I think Henry convinced himself that his motives were mixed, and included reform – but it should be noted he stick very close to the Church in many ways.
LikeLike
Henry didn’t set out to form a church of his own nor reform the Catholic Church. He wanted to choose his own wife so he would have a male heir. His court took it from there. From all that horrendous upheaval was born the Church of England, which is tremendously different from the Church IN England. The Church IN England soon was a band of outlaws and went into hiding or faced death. God bless. Ginnyfree.
LikeLike
Ginny, again, I am sorry to call you out for the extent of your ignorance, but this childish view is held by no serious historian. Of course Henry wanted a male heir, but if you were familiar with the literature on the subject, you would know Henry changed very little and most of the changes came under his son, Edward VI. Still, why let facts get in the way of your opinions?
LikeLike
Basically he was a bad Catholic,rather than a sincere Protestant, like his son. But rejecting the Pope’s authority over the legitimacy of his marriage to Catherine was a drastic step with grave consequences, which the actual Reformers, such as Cranmer, were quick to exploit. After all, St Thomas More said on the scaffold, “I die the King’s good servant – but God’s first” – acknowledging that the King had forced him to choose.
LikeLike
Spot on, Francis. Like so many Catholics, he came to think that he knew better than the Church, and since the Church refused to do what he wanted, it was up to him to ‘reform’ it. As I say in the post, that is where all heresy begins. It is not for nothing that original sin began with the desire to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and from man’s sinful desire to be as wise as God.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Wonderful picture you put up top. Your Holy Father has his ever present “Bent Crooked Cross” one of the most well know of all the Satanic symbols. The arms are bent and the verticle stick is crooked. Good brother Servus, in his haste explain away everything, said its because the pine cone staff has been dropped a few times.
Doesn’t looked dropped to me.
Now why would the representative of Jesus be carrying a Satanic symbol?
Next…..look at the Holy Fathers hand poking out from his big robe. To the uninitiated its just his hand sitting there. To a Mason its the hand sign of a Mason, which they do in public to identify themselves to other Masons. I wont add a picture of this here. But if folks want proof I will put pics galore on my galorious site
cherrybombcoutour.blogspot.com.
This might seem absolutely ridiculose, accusing the pope of a hand sign. It looks like his hand sitting there. It has to hang somewhere. Yep, looks like a hand to me….everyones got 2 of em.
Maybe some of the more knowledgeable and worldly older guys in here know about such things. I didn’t know until very recently myself. There are tons of pic of the Holy Father doing various Masonic AND Satanist hand sign. I can provide the pics if anyone is interested.
Whats the bottom line?
Those other two guys in the pic….they all know what the deal is and most likely are Masons and Satanists also. Its not a secret anymore that many clergy are Masons.
The bottom line is, that the faithful cathol defends the pope by saying he is the mouthpiece for god and speaks the truth of the catholic religion. The truth is…hes a devilish Mason and a Satanist. And this is who catholic flock to see and faint over as being some sort of holyman supreme. make no mistake….if you follow him you will reap the same reward as him.
LikeLike
Poor old Bosco. Did you ever come across a conspiracy theory you didn’t swallow hook, line and sinker?
LikeLike
Yeah, I know. I didn’t want to believe it at first either. Surely things cant be that simple and mundane. But as time went by, I kept hearing about it then some enterprising people put pictures together, by the hundreds, and even from days gone by, of men and women making these hand signs. Its not long befor one has to give in and admit what their eyes are seeing, and knowing the character of the people making the hand signs. people like yourself, good brother, don’t want it to be true, so no matter what, its not true to you.
lets go with one of the most famous of the Mason hand sigh….sticking ones hand inside of the coat or jacket, just the hand up to the wrist. Good brother Napoleon….how many pics have you seen with his hand stuck in his jacket? I always thought that was odd, but never gave it a second thought. That is until it was pointed out that its a Mason hand sigh and shown hundreds of pic of men doing the same sign….men of fame and power. You might dismiss it as coincidence, just as you do the catholic clergy fish hat of Dagon . Who would sit down to design a hat and come up with that? When I get the energy, ill put a bunch of pic of these hand sign on my handy dandy sigh. Then you can tell me its all just a happy go lucky coincidence.
LikeLike
Bosco, you need a rest. This is simply mad rambling. Think. You say it’s a secret – so he advertises it, right, what sort of secret is that?
LikeLike
We, the people, aren’t suppose to know these hand signs. They can be dismissed easily as just our imagination. But with internet and mass instant communications and defections from the ranks of Masons, these once secret handsigns are now exposed.
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTFHP7_XzfnyapR-4FzZGWSUo5Eqs4OxNKJ6p-DfW5xYtx0hccm
The hand sign Napoleon also used, and many others use. I have endless pictures of this.
LikeLike
Of course, Bosco, and no one in the Vatican has noticed, so they carry on doing it? Really, do at least try applying some common-sense.
LikeLike
Ok, so did you see the Holy Father doing the same hand sign as Napoleon in the pic I put up? One thing you cant say is that it is the same sign, or pose, if you will. As to the others in the Vatican….they are all in on it together. Its all a power and money grab in the Vatican. The number two man in the Vatican retired in opulent splendor having grabbed tons of money and constructing himself a palacial apt, with money meant for charities. All of them do it. its their money. They can do as they please with it. The most powerful people in the world are all Masons, and if you want to keep power, one has to be in with them. You probably could dismiss one thousand pictures of people doing this sign as nothing. You think everything is fine and there is no evil spirit world. That’s Ok. It uncomplicates life.
LikeLike
Bosco, like Scoop with global warming, you will believe whatever some websites you want to believe tells you.
LikeLike