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In terms of the responses to yesterday’s post on the west and Islam, I am left a trifle puzzled. Our old friend Scoop commented:
So a different opinion might say that the “lazy thinking” (C alluded to in his post) is to limit one’s analysis to a single precedent action (our reactionary involvement in the Gulf Wars) and of course blaming ourselves (or more specifically the U.S. – the victims of their preemptive violence) for the refugee crisis resulting from these Middle East conflicts. Of course, we do not mention the unprecedented attacks of Bin Laden’s group on the World Trade Center, the invasion of Kuwait by Saddam, the failed attempt some years before on the World Trade Center, or the Iranian hostage crisis some years before . . . not to discount the sporadic terrorist attacks on planes and ships.
Try as I might, I can’t see what 9/11, Kuwait or the Iranian hostage crisis contributed to the current refugee crisis. That was, like it or not, the consequence of our actions. The lives people were living were disrupted by the actions of an American-led coalition, and to indulge in ‘whatabouterry’ evades the issue of what should be done with the human victims. The same is true of the distinction without a difference between ‘refugee and economic migrants’. If we look back to the European settlement of North America, were the Pilgrim Fathers refugees or economic migrants, and would the distinction have mattered? As Christians Christ does not tell us to draw such distinctions – or perhaps I am misreading the parable of the Good Samaritan?
When Mrs Merkel accepted so many refugees her motives were not purely humanitarian. She knew that German population growth has fallen below replacement level, and saw here an easy source of new, cheap labour. As a society we contracept and abort to such a degree that across the West we are not replacing ourselves. I am not quite sure that turning aside refugees or economic migrants will aid in the slightest in defusing this demographic time-bomb?
Behind all of this lies something we are unwilling to confront – the reality of sin and wrath. For all the talk of a Christian society, our invasion of Iraq and behaviour in Libya and Syria has had nothing to do with Christianity; it is equal parts hubris, false confidence and ignorance. That sinful behaviour has created the current problems. No one made us abort of contracept to the degree we do; we created the demographic time-bomb. Do we, as Christians, not recognise that sin has consequences? Sure, we can retreat into the privacy of our ‘Benedict option’, but there may not be much left if we decide to come out of it later.
If the Lord Jesus had wanted us all to retreat to monasteries or small, pure, private communities, I suspect He would have told us that. We could ‘send back’ every refugee and every economic migrant, but I am unsure what that would accomplish. These people would simply be going back to an unviable situation, but with a motive for revenge on those who had rejected the. It would do nothing t solve the problems created demographically by our hedonism, indeed, in some ways, it would be in the spirit of modern hedonism – all too much trouble for us to cope with, leave us alone, let us get on with enjoying ourselves, or praying in a corner for things to improve. None of these seem very Christian options. We have brought upon ourselves the wrath that is the consequence of sin – so we could at least accept our guilt and repent. But as I have commented before, for followers of a faith founded on repentance, Christians often have a real problem with the concept. The correct respons eto a sense of sin is not ‘what about that lot over there?’ It is to repent and follow the Gospel message. None of that involves easy options.
This is a rather simplistic and callous disregard for what I actually wrote yesterday. History has everything to do with the decisions that were made by both the U.S. and Europe; not the least of these decisions was our chucking of Christian values and morality these past 100 years for the new ideas of the neo-Marxists who now reign as the PC voice of our nations. They have co-opted and corrupted Christian principles and used them against us with disregard for their intended purposes. False charity reigns and it is a weapon to tear down law and justice in our societies and it is working quite well, thank you.
I am sure that if the American Indians knew what was going to happen to their societies they would not have been so welcoming to the Europeans that arrived on their open borders many years ago. I am also sure that if the immigrants who arrived in America raped our women and children and beheaded our citizens on the streets we would not be known as a nation of immigrants; we would be known as a nation of idiots.Disregard for the laws of the host country is a rather severe form of disrespect, don’t you think?
Your analysis of Merkel replacing a labor force sounds more like the excuse the Southern plantation owners used for purchasing slaves. They don’t come as cheaply as you think; there is always a hidden cost in society that must be paid. And Europe is only paying the first installment at present by offering rather liberal amounts of welfare for these displaced persons. And yes, they had a choice as to where their money was to be spent; either in camps established in the Middle East or in providen food, housing, clothing and money for them within their own societies; not to mention the cost of policing this unruly and largely ungrateful bunch.
Nobody, likewise is discounting sin and wrath. Ther is enough to go around in every corner of the world. It does not mean that because we are sinners that we must allow people who want us dead to occupy our neighborhoods and homes. We have visited this upon ourselves perhaps because we did not heed the wornings of Fatima.
I am not calling for a Benedict option at this point. I am calling for prayer to wipe out this foolish explosion of False Compassion that is part and parcel to the modern liberalism of our day. We have let it spread its poison througout our governments and now society to such a degree that it will be next to impossible to irradicate it and get back to some reasonable level of civility. The hedonism that is rampant is that sowed by this neo-Marxist desire to unburden its citizens from having to control their libidos. Once the door is opened then the failure of both Christianity and the family follow. This is why Merkel and most of Europe is almost barren. The fecundity of the nations has been dried up. Replacing the aborted children with the culture that has declared war on the rest of the world since its inception seems a rather stupid plan to me.
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The aborted children in Western Society is a real cause for sorrow, alarm and repentance.
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There is no need for apocalyptic thinking about ‘wrath’ – these things we have brought on ourselves, and short of repentance and amendment of life, nothing will change – alas.
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You wrote that 9/11, Kuwait and the Iranian hostage crisis should be taken into account; you fail to explain why? None of them produced this refugees crisis. You continue to fail to face up to what did cause it, preferring, instead, to rehash speculative conspiracy theories, none of which explain either the refugee crisis or address how Christians should respond to it; far from being callous, I was actually quite kind in not pointing these things out.
These ‘neo-Marxists’ who rule us, who are they? They failed to stop Congress going Republican, they failed to stop Trump being elected and they failed to stop Brexit; so in what sense do they ‘rule’ us? Who are they? There’s a lot of conspiracy stuff here Scoop, but no actual evidence; in the age of Trump, who can’t, it seems, tell the truth even about his school record, perhaps that’s enough, but I expect more from you.
There’s an ironic juxtaposition in your paragraph about American Indians and migrants who rape; I suspect an American Indian might tell you that those migrants they let in did quite a bit of that. America is a nation of immigrants, and perhaps every generation has felt enough was enough, but more came all the same. Where’s old Trump’s wall, and how’s that ‘the Mexicans will pay for it’ thing going?
You’re too simplistic in two ways about Merkel. we are already spending a fortune in the Middle East on camps, but these people didn’t want to stay in camps – quite a lot of men want to work and don’t want welfare; I’d have thought you’d praise that? So they came West looking for work. The second over-simplification is to ignore the fact that the German population is not replacing itself, so without younger workers coming in to do the jobs and pay the taxes, the outlook for the old is grim.
We brought all this on ourselves. We’re not victims of Soros or Alinsky. They did not make us hedonists, they did not force our society to contracept and abort and abandon Christianity; we did it to ourselves.
At no point to you address the central question, which is what is the Christian response to the flood of people, literally, washing up on our shores. Jesus is clear about what we need to do, you seem bent on avoiding the question, resorting to ‘whatabouttery’ and conspiracy theories. These may, or may not be true, but what do you think should be done with these fellow human beings whose lives have been disrupted by the actions of our Governments?
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I admire Angela Merkel, Her response to the refugees was what one might expect from a Christian. I just wish that Teresa May had been as welcoming and generous spirited. I don’t think Brexit is turning out too well and we shall be the losers in the long term.
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It has always been plain that we can’t get a better deal with the EU by being outside it, and it is becoming clear that the lies about the sums of money available for the NHS were, indeed, just that. Ironically those hit hardest will be living in the regions which voted for it.
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The three Brexiteers led by the ex mayor of London – Boris Johnson, seem to be making a complete hash of it.
EU Council President Tusk demands a Brexit deal on UK’s £50bn bill, migrant rights and the Irish border BEFORE EU trade talks can begin. I reckon Tusk is going to make it very difficult for us and who can blame him.
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I wouldn’t have bought a second hand-car from Johnson, Fox or Farage – but they fooled enough of the people for enough of the time
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If cannot see that an act of aggression against another sovereign nation has consequences then there is not much I can help you with in regards to opening your eyes. Actions have consequences. This recent batch of refugees are a result of our actions and our actions are a result of their attacks and terrorism that has been going on for many years and has deeper roots yet: all the way back to the founding of the Muslim cult. We as Christians or Jews have never been off their radar for long and the hatred runs deep. Is that a speculative conspiracy theory? Really? If anyone knows how to deal with Muslims it is the Jewish state. They respect, it seems, a show of force and they are emboldened by compassion which is seen as a weakness. They sense, as do I, that Western civilization has collapsed in its resolve and its moral principles to the state which is low-hanging fruit for the picking. And they will be doing some picking.
Who are these neo-Marxists? Wherever you find false compassion and find political correctness run-amuck you have found their fingerprints. Wherever you find sexual degeneracy and families being redefined or disparaged you have seen their footprints. Wherever you find a government, with the consent of their people, killing babies from the womb, selling their body parts, condoning same sex marriage and offering incentives to unwed mothers to have more out of wedlock babies then you have felt the breath of their ideological power and of satan who motivates them. And it obviously is not only confined to democrats as it can be found throughout our society, political parties, schools, churches, and synagogues as well as within our own homes. This may be an interesting read for some here: http://catholicism.org/ad-rem-no-289.html?mc_cid=439e1c51c5&mc_eid=91dcdb6ad8
I’m glad that the ironic juxtaposition of the Indians did not escape your notice as it was intended to show that we ought to be able to learn from the consequences of our actions and that the same actions and consequences might well be visited upon us for our past sins. As to Trump; the wall will be built or we will cease to be a sovereign nation. One or the other.
Now who’s being over simplistic? You really believe that these young men who are arriving on your shores are looking for work and drawn by economic concerns? As NEO said; teach them to fish in their own lands. They do not want that at all and therefore one has to wonder what it is that they do actually want. And who orchestrated this mass exodus from the Middle East? We have shiploads of immigrants being sent around the world where the passengers have no passports, visas, identification or birth certificates. We know nothing about them except for the mess they are causing law enforcement and the way people have to adjust their way of life by looking over their shoulders at every minute wondering if they might have their heads lopped off, get themselves raped or being run over by a car or blown up or executed. Your false compassion proves the problem that still exists among liberal and conservative, Christian and Jew and even law-abiding atheists.
So since you have not ‘reproduced’ we now have to fix this problem by bringing in people who would change your laws, hate you, bring crime and death to your citizenry in order to find a few to fill some specific jobs. Yes, we did it to ourselves and what is simplistic is your shared Merkel vision. If that is problem then reverse the laws concerning abortion and quit supporting all laws that work against nuclear traditional families. Offer incentives for having children rather than pushing agendas within the UN to reverse the population of the planet and conserve the resources. You attend to the symptom and let the disease break out and various other ways in your society as we do here in the US as well.
The answer to your central question is that if you stop immigrants from coming in: they will no longer be ‘washing up’ on your shores. Once you open the flood gates as we all have, they will keep coming as they get a warm welcome and a nice chunk of welfare change; in some instances, living better than they ever did in their homeland with or without the wars.
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In what way, do remind me, did Iraq attack America? What did I miss? Iran was America’s declared enemy, but Bush brilliantly destroyed the only counter-balance to it by attacking Iraq. So yes, you are right, America’s attack on a sovereign nation (aided by that idiot Blair) has had real consequences, mainly for the millions of people in the region. What ‘terrorism’ did Iraq practice on the USA, or did Syria, for that matter. Sorry, you seem to be making this up as you go along. You say what happened was a result of their terrorism, but neither Iraq nor Syria practised terrorism against the US – could you make that make sense for me, please?
From your definition, or lack of it, I see ‘neo marxist’ is the right-wing equivalemnt of crying ‘waacist’- a substitute for actually thinking.
No one ‘orchestrated’ the departures, although the people smugglers have capitalised on it. Young men don’t want to sit in refugee camps being taught to fish, they want to earn a living, and so they get out, they risk their lives crossing the sea, some of them die; it’s what men do. Usually you are all for self-reliance, now suddenly you seem to be in favour of welfare, or at least telling men to stay put and do what the aid agencies tell them to do. Would you or I do that in their situation? I’d move heaven and hell to get somewhere I could earn cash to send home, so would you and so would Neo. I note, though, you still say not a word about what you would do by way of dealing with all these people?
Dp you really believe that there would be no refugees if the gates were closed? They were before they started coming, they died crossing the Med, even the Pope cried. But you, no, you say it isn’t anything to do with you. I guess you have no compassion, false or otherwise?
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You are certainly welcome to invite anyone who does not live at your standard of living to your country: have at it. That would, of course, open your borders to almost everyone in the world that wants what you have. Go for it.
And where was the compassion for the Cambodian genocide or that in Rwanda? Or for that in various countries in South America: where it was you who had an ocean between you and them. We have picked and chosen where we were going to show our compassion and we have chosen, for political reasons, those to whom we would not it seems.
I agree that it would have been better to have left the Middle East to fight each other and persecute each other ad infinitum . . . but then that is rather pragmatic of me and insensitive for those who die at the hands of these tyrannical dictators. There have been refugees from around the world from murderous dictatorships who creaated far more refugees that we have now have and we did nothing to help them and we did not mass evacuate them to our countries. This time, it seems, we have decided that this makes sense. You think it does and then you place your Christian compassion on top of your decision to make it a moral imperative. Where was your moral imperative in other great disasters; even natural ones that displace people and make of them refugees? No. It is pure politics that has created this and it is pure lunacy to think that this will end well. What would I do? I would try to help them where they were as best I could at this juncture. If I could go back in time I would let them kill each other as they have been doing for a thousand years. So to bring up compassion in all of this is almost a moot point as you and everyone else picks and chooses whom to show this to. That is what makes it false plus the fact that the course you are on will make of your own people victims . . . as you already are. It’s nice to have empathy but that does not mean that our governments have to enter into self-suffering in order to convey that empathy and use it as a moral high ground.
The way you talk, we should have desperately pleaded for the suffering Chinese at the hands of Mao or the suffering Russians at the hands of Stalin and brought as many as we could to our shores. Seems the Christian thing to do in our present thought analysis.
Provide aid to the suffering as best you can. Encourage people to topple governments that are trying to wipe them off the planet. Either that or ignore them all equally and let them all suffer.
You can’t save the planet just like we need to stop being the policeman of the world. The industrialized world after all is the source of most this world’s relief work and and money but now that is no longer going to suffice. We must give them the keys to our homes and our cars and sleep with one eye open for fear of our lives. Good choice.
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Again, you refuse to answer the question. What is it you think we, as Christians, should do for these people whose lives have been disrupted by the actions of our governments? More ‘whatabouttery’ doesn’t give an answer; which part of Catholic moral teaching says that if we didn’t help the Cambodians we shouldn’t help Syrians? There are people so desparate that they will risk death to cross the Mediterranean, and your response is what? You never once mention Christianity or Christ’s teaching in what you are saying. I presume because you know the Christian response and it runs counter to your attempts to evade it. By all means, pass by on the other side and obsess about the form of the Mass, but that is not a Christ-like response.
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I thought your post was about the refugee crisis in europe and not about the teaching of Christ which are held by a minority of people in Europe at present . . . so excuse me while I speak the pragmatic speech of politics. Though, I must say, our Church is no longer providing the lead in guiding the world with our morality. Instead it seems we are being given the agenda by the US government or the UN. The money trail to the USCCB is interesting if you haven’t read the articles lately.
My answer is to turn off the spigot and vet every refugee in the country until the country is absolutely satisfied that these people are not a clear and present danger to the citizens of this country. Those that pass can stay and those that fail will be deported. After that criteria is met then one can open immigration again with restrictions that guarantee a better than average chance of their becoming model citizens.
So in the past the Christian response was not to let Muslims conquer Rome and Christian Europe but now the Christian response is to let them run roughshod over Europe, raping, pillaging and killing whoever they want and paying them to do so. Of course as long as the spigot is on and the Europeans keep on with their negative birth rate then it won’t take too many generations before your progeny will be living under Sharia. Vote with your Christian conscience and show no compassion for the innocent victims of your decision. Sometimes you have to look beyond the circumstance that you are now facing. It must also take into account what the future is likely to bring due to your policies.
You can embrace open borders or you can enforce a regulated border. I choose number two.
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It was, and is, and the actions of the governments you are criticising is closer to Christ than it is to the ‘pragmatic speech of politics’, surely? The idea that a democratic State would round up tens of thousands of people and vet them is an interesting one. Perhaps we could have camps for the purpose; I wonder if history provides us with a model for such camps, and whether, having thought about that one, it is a place you would really want to go?
How’s that wall and the Mexicans paying for it, going, by the way? Doesn’t look as though your number 2 choice is going to happen in the USA either. How’s the travel ban working out?
Of course, if the Native Americans had only thought of this idea, you and your ancestors would never have been able to settle in their lands. Throughout history people have moved, and there is no example of anyone being able to stop it. It usually leads to something like the USA – that is a land where people of different ancestries live together in relative peace. Why demonise these refugees? They are not all law breakers. Your characterisation of them has much in common with Bosco’s tactics when dealing with our priests – let’s focus on the bad ones and leave out the fact that most are not.
Back to the Christian attitude. where is Christ in your desire to round them up and vet them?
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I never specified internment camps . . . that is what springs to your mind which says more about you than it does me. My focus and the use of my tax dollars would be to create citizenship through vetting and schooling. If you don’t want them to be citizens and they do not want to be citizens then what you harbor is a whole new dissent group which will be played by the politicians until they have a voice in government whether vetted or not.
If open borders is the play of the day then globalism is the final solution and your new Muslim pals will not play: it will be a contest to the end. One will have to go. Easier and more compassionate to do it now than later.
Is it true that 70% of Muslim citizens (the good guys) would prefer sharia in a recent poll? That’s what I read.
Yes people have moved all through history and sometimes whole cultures were destroyed. Seems you might want to use history to learn rather to acquiesce.
The US has a legal system that provided us reasonable vetting. At one time the biggest threat was the introduction of diseases that we had no cure for. Was it mean spirited that we would not let a typhoid Mary type into our country? You also like to put Muslims on a par with other cultures and other faiths. Can you name another religion that is like the Muslims with their laws and their teachings to kill or convert by the sword? If those are the ones we let in before we wouldn’t still be here. It is not simply another religion but a culture that is blood thirsty and looks to a day where they are the only ‘religion’ on the planet. That not all are bad people . . . I agree. That is the reason for a need for vetting, otherwise none should be admitted. Some abide by your laws and let us hope they will make good citizens. And for those who aren’t you seem to want to close a blind eye and pretend that they are not coming in at unprecedented numbers.
Again it is you who said ’round them up’ not me. Don’t you have social service people who could help with the vetting and cannot the security departments within your country help them take the information gained and decide if they need further attention or not? You’ve read too much into all of this than is written.
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Your precise comment was:
‘My answer is to turn off the spigot and vet every refugee in the country until the country is absolutely satisfied that these people are not a clear and present danger to the citizens of this country. Those that pass can stay and those that fail will be deported.’
Quite how do you suppose such an enterprise would be carried out? In your country and mine there has usually been one way of doing it – internment camps. I think you might find, as your current President keeps finding, that a little thing called the rule of law would stop you from being able to vet all refugees.
I am unsure why you smear all Muslims for the crimes of a few. Not all Muslims believe in spreading their religion by force. I don’t know how many Muslims you know well, I know quite a few and I have never once found one of them lamenting Sharia law or wanting this country to look like Afghanistan. Islam is not a single entity, and to draw the conclusions you do from texts and extremists would be like taking some of Quiavideruntoculi’s more extreme statements from Church documents of the past and using them to claim that all Catholics wanted a theocratic state in which there would be no dissenting religions.
I still have to hear a word of Christian charity from you for these people, or any acceptance that your country and mine has been greatly at fault here.
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It is not beyond the scope of government to create or ammend laws to deal with a new situation. It has always been that way. There are other ways today than internment camps no matter what we had to do in the past to protect the people.
I am curious as to whether you feel safe in Muslim neighborhoods in your country. Will you let your wife go to shop in their stores or eat in their restaurants? I wonder if single women, gays, or transgenders feel safe. And if not where is their outrage? I wonder how safe Jews are feeling these days?
I am also assuming the Muslims you know are integrated and were not refugees living in primarily Muslim neighborhoods. I also worked with an engineer that was Muslim who lived outside of such a neighborhood. But that is not the reality of where these refugees are ending up for the most part. It is really quite an objective observation. There are as you know entire neighborhoods that have becove ‘no go’ zones even for the police. That is unacceptable. These neighborhoods have their own Sharia courts. That is unacceptable. You are willing to let this continue and think it the Christian thing to do to put your rule of law at risk, your citizens and the police at risk in order that you might say that you are willing to deal with all of that in order to help the refugee.
Christian charity informs me to help to the degree that I can help without accepting a ‘Sophie’s Choice’. I can send money to agencies working with these people in their own lands but I do not want them to be brought out of their own countries if they are not fully vetted. If vetted fine, until the country comes to a point where you’ve spent all the peoples money and you cannot do this anymore. Your social services are already stretched to the max as is our own. In fact, if we were dealing with real money rather than fiat money backed by IOU’s we would quickly see that that day is already upon us. We are broke and living off of the future already.
So that is my word of Christian charity. It does not require that I sit idly by and let my Church get burned, my neighbor get beheaded, my grandchildren get raped, or that I harbor those who will not follow the rule of law of this country.
What difference does it make as to where the finger is pointed? That we have something to do with this is a given and I gave it to you from the first. I only stipulate that there are many an atrocity that was committed by these societies that weighed heavily on the decisions that were made by our countries . . . you know, the silly stuff like Saddam gasing his own citizens and trying to gas the Kurds to the point of extinction. But other than that, yes, we bear some responsibility for creating an unstable world. That is what happens in the world over and over again. North Korea, China, Russia, Iran, Pakistan, Syria, Saudi Arabia et al have all played a role in creating an unstable world or region of the world. Get out your globe and show me what isn’t unstable at the moment by the fault of various groups, countries or religions.
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I do sometimes wonder at where you get your facts? Yes, I feel perfectly safe in Muslim areas, as does my wife, and we both like Moroccan and Turkish food and dine in such restaurants frequently, and not once has anyone tried to convert us, bomb us or do anything but feed us and provide us with good service. I suspect transgenders feel as safe there as they would in a Republican gathering in the mid-West.
I’m not sure what you mean by you don’t want them brought out of their lands? They came because they couldn’t live where they were living; if our governments had not done what they did, they would still be there. I forget how little US news reports these things, but we’re dealing with millions of people who fled to escape horror, not people who had the option of meekly staying in camps.
The lurid pictures you conjure with are, I presume, the figment of someone’s imagination. At least I can’t find any refugees doing the things you write about, so quite why you link burning churches and beheading your neighbours to them, I can’t imagine.
It makes a difference because our countries broke their countries and we have a moral responsibility to deal with the consequences, as grown adults should, rather than whining it is their fault, or some other ‘whatabouttery’ – it’s called taking responsibility. Something it seems your country, under its new idiot President, is not willing to do any more.
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http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/01/21/europes-muslim-no-go-zones-documented-on-video/
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/625545/Donald-Trump-Muslims-speech-British-police-ISIS-radicalisation-London
https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/news/843358/there-are-no-go-areas-in-london-policemen-back-trumps-controversial-comments/
I can provide more if you like.
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Oh dear, Breibart and the Express – you’ve missed out the National Enquirer 😭
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Actually the National Enquirer broke a few real stories this past year that the MSM would not touch. Are the quotes not real from Teresa May in the following one: http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/688662/Theresa-May-Sharia-Law-inquiry-Prime-Minister-leader-conservative-party-downing-street
If all the links one can find just by Googling the subject are untrue it sure is a bunch of them.
I don’t find it hard to believe because in every large city in the U.S. there are areas I will not go and would not be welcome to walk around the streets. I used to drive a cab in NYC and in Boston and there are places I just wouldn’t go. Not so strange to think that Muslim neighborhoods have sprung up where you wouldn’t want to find yourself in.
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There are plenty of neighbourhoods one would not wish to go 😊
The Express story was typical of the rag – the headline made it sound like she was defending Sharia Law, the text says she’s holding an inquiry into it because it is not fair to women.
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That’s how I took it and it only made my point that Sharia Courts do exist and of course there was a story about 1 such court in Lancashire, I believe it was, where an honor killing was OK’d by the court. Was that fake news or is that type of thing going on in some of these Muslim neighborhoods?
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Sharia courts do exist. So do Canon law courts. How would you feel if a State said that they were abolishing Ecclesiastical tribunals? Honour killings are against the law of the land, so no ‘court’ can make them OK. I wonder at the level of paranoia? But then it tends to be greater in places where there are few Muslims.
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I know that it goes against the rule of the land C. My question is, did a Sharia Court in the UK give its moral nod to a man who felt dishonored to kill the young man who dishonored his daughter or not? If Sharia law were only about Church procedure for things like divorce that would be one thing . . . but they obviously decide on issues that put them at direct violation of state law. So your comparison with Canon law is of little help.
Paranoia has nothing to do with that. In the US we plunged into the Second World War with the loss of 2,400 persons in Pearl Harbor at the hands of the Japanese and we were outraged. With the collapse of the Twin Towers a handful of Muslims brought nearly 3,000 people to their deaths and we went to war against terrorists and any nation who harbors terrorists: though undeclared. Sharia condones honor killings all over the world; it is a fact. Do the Muslims dislike our laws and perfer Muslims? Recent polls seem to indicate that they do.
Here is a nice little rally of law-abiding Muslims in your land. When you are outnumbered I wonder what it will be like.
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I can’t find a single UK source which confirms what Geller and Spencer say, but then those two are about as reliable as Trump’s press spokesman. In fact, Sharia courts are, generally, about religious matters, so the parallel is a good one.
I hate to tell you this, but your parallel with Japan is not only poor, your use of it borders on the unbalanced. Japan was a sovereign State, the Jihadists were not. By drawing the parallel you are effectively taking at face value the claim of a few nutjobs that they represented the whole of Islam, and you are declaring war on a billion people – best of luck with that one Crusader.
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I am only telling you what our President spoke to the world in his speech after the heinous act . . . and you must have missed the word terrorist. That said, does the Koran approve of the acts of these terrorists? Does it give moral cover for acts that are illegal under our law of the land whether they act on their prejudices and hatreds or not? It is like removing a filter between a person’s desires and their acts.
No. I take nothing at face value and certainly not the words of those who do not want to attribute a contribution to the acts of ‘these few nutjobs’ on their beliefs. They have a history that incorporates violence on the unbelievers and a holy book that praises acts of violence on Jews and all unbelievers. I don’t think it paranoid or absurd to use common sense to be prepared for what that might mean in the future. To be forewarned is to be forearmed as they say. It is a practical consideration.
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I would hardly believe Trump if he told me his name was Donald J Trump; the man is a pathological fantasist.
To think the Koran gives sanction to terrorist acts is like supposing that the Old testament gives sanction to wiping out other nations. But then if you get your information on Islam from geller and Spencer, that’s like Bosco getting his information on the Church from the odd sits he visits.
You say ‘they’ have a history of violence, as though the history of Christianity suggests we don’t; and our Church has praised acts of violence against Jews and non-Catholics, so I am not sure you’re wise to continue down this line.
If you would use common sense it would be appreciated, but you’re not, you’re reading Geller and Spencer, two of the most unbalanced commentators there are on Islam. As usual, fundie on both sides need each other. I leave you to their company.
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I don’t know what Trump has to do with anything we’re speaking about; maybe you can explain that. As to Geller and Spencer (whoever they are) I couldn’t care less. I only react to the words of the good Imam and the chants of the good Muslim citizens of your country . . . and find that quite normal which tells me that your normal is far from the normal that I want for my children.
And so the Imams do not quote these passages to stir or ire amongst the people throughout the Muslim world. And Israel need not worry about the Muslim countries that want to wipe from the face of the Earth. I suppose that is oll just fake news.
Whether or not you think that we can all just get along and perhaps meld into a new Christian/Muslim culture is but an opinion. Mine is that these two have never been able to do it successfully for long and is unlikely to do so in the future. In fact I will go out on a limb and suggest that nuclear war in the region is more likely than not in the lifetimes of our children . . . and perhaps for ourselves.
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Your last one began by saying Trump had told the world this after the last terrorist attack in the UK; I was addressing that.
Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer were in one of the many links you provided and therefore are part of the sources for your paranoia.
You write with confidence about ‘Imams’ but in much the same way Bosco does about Catholics – which ones are you quoting, what authority do they have? Fundie can always find a fundie on the opposite side to justify their paranoia – that’s how the game works.
On living side by side, well the Ottomans managed it for about 500 years, and the rise of modern nationalism destroyed that coexistence and ushered in a period of ethnic cleansing, so if recent history supports your view, the longer record supports mine.
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No. It said ‘our President’. At that time, the President was George W. Bush.
I have no paranoia and I only took links from some of the first hits on Google related to the subject. I told you I could provide more . . . after all the results of my search [muslim no go zones in the UK] turned up 628,000 hits. So I’ve used the first 3. The stories I read over the years have come from many sources which I cannot remember at the moment. I look at Drudge as a news aggregate to read headlines and I will read the story if it is of interest to me. Other sources are the MSM, Fox News and the radio talk programs that I listen to. Sorry I can’t be more specific but these types of stories have a certain regularity to them.
Well if whole nation states of Muslims are all speaking with one voice against the Jews it gives one pause. Also, if after 9/11 you didn’t have the seering image of Muslims throughout the Middle East dancing and celebrating in the streets, burning the American flag et al, then you don’t understand the psychological impact of such things have on human beings very well.
This conversation is at a standstill in view. You hold a view not uncommon among the liberals of my own country that we MUST integrate these people in our culture. I merely find myself in total disagreement. I think the cultures cannot assimilate and will not ever assimilate and that we are heading for either a very nasty showdown, a surrender of our culture, or a total collapse of our social services . . . then, of course, we can all be poor together. Egalitarianism at its finest.
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Ah, I see, that was the idiot who got us into this ghastly mess – or allowed the Neo-Cons to do so.
Oddly enough, I trust British sources rather than American ones, and there are no ‘no go zones’ in the UK. That Muslims should speak with one voice about Jews is not surprising – about 100 years ago most Christian nations did.
If Americans are such sensitive creatures that people dancing and burning their flag after a tragedy means they go attack a country which had nothing to do with the attack, I’m not quite sure what to make of that.
I am not saying we have to integrate anyone, I am saying we have a duty as Christians to take care of those seeking refuge – which is what the USSCB also says.
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Americans are not ‘such sensive creatures’ that we launched against the whole of them otherwise they would be have been dust and ash. We went after the terrorists and those who harbored terrorists. But I suppose that we learned something important: Muslims are not our friends.
So how are you going to take care of them without selling your own down the toilet unless some type of integration takes place?
And BTW, the USCCB is totally useless and is nothing more than a cheerleader for the far left. They receive about 91 million a year from the US govt. I think there is a bit of a conflict of interest here. I personally am going to stop giving my own diocese any money because they send a sizable check to the USCCB every year. We were much better off before the emergence of these decentralized state councils around the world after VII.
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So why attack Iraq, which had nothing to do with 9/11 and was not an Islamic State?
You don’t care for the Pope or your bishops – that’s a lot of fathers in Christ you seem to be writing off there. Your focus seems very political rather than religious, but I guess that’s what you’re saying about your bishops?
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Ask them C . . . I as an ordinary citizen have not the intel that they have nor the acccess to their overall strategy. It didn’t work out well and it was not carried through in a way that I am comfortable with. That does not make me, personably responsible for the cost to these people. Our leaders need take some responsibilty for the loss of our own blood and treasure that was expended. But this was not a groundup movement. We knew that something needed be done and we were given enough information to make most of us supportive of doing something. It could not stand anymore than Pearl Harbor could not stand.
That is what I am saying about the majority of the bishops and the Pope as well; political through and through. You’re welcome to your own analysis of course. The USCCB did nothing to combat the laws affected religious freedom, same sex legalization and pro-life legislation. What little they said had no bite and no action to back it. Nothing was said to parishioners and we have watched as they shifted their focus from sexual issues to climate and immigrants due to their loss of moral authority by their own failures to address the child abuse issues in their own dioceses and their own complicity in the crisis. So I hold them in low regard as did Bishop Bruskewitz of Lincoln – the only one who had the nerve to blame the bishops at their meeting in Dallas. So how did the USCCB respond? By issuing rules on all the teachers and parents that have any contact with the children in their care etc. with things like VIRTUS. Shameful response.
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It is so easy to shake off any responsibility; I only elected them, nothing to do with me, the consequences, well … . Well, indeed, do we not all bear a share of responsibility for things done in our name. There was zero reliable information that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11, and to call it in aid as an explanation as to why the invasion was justified is really not on.
The obsession with sexual matter has been overdone, and has given the world outside the Church the impression that all it cares about is sex. There are other things. You may deny the insights of most of the world’s scientists about climate change, but I have seen no reliable work that says climate change is not happening and that it is not dangerous.
I agree on the child abuse, and there is no excuse for the Church not doing what it ought to have done, but we shall not recover moral authority by going into a holy huddle and preaching about sex.
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Let the abortions continue! Talk about not taking no responsibility.
The cllimate is always changing and always will. Whether it goes up or goes down it is being used as a mantra to give politicians more control . . . because we caused it don’t you know. I think you need to be a bit more skeptical and see how serious opposition has been shut up and how data has been manipulated. Believe what you want. I’m all for reasonable legislation to clean up our waters and air but to a large extent that has been done by the more advanced countries already. You want to boycott China . . . I’m with you.
As for dealing with the Muslim refugees on your own soil, I think that’s swell that you Europeans do it. We can use you guys as a guinea pig and gauge our solutions on your successs. So far, it doesn’t look so good. Seems the majority of the poor and middleclass are not so keen on it . . . nobody asked them. But then you have no problem with your governments forcing this on them. Why do you think these large rifts in people have opened up in our countries as late; because the govt. keeps shoving their fixes on the average Joe and of course it is done with the use of their tax money. Good luck with that. If you gave people a safe zone in their own land and provided food, water, shelter and clothing then maybe they would fight for their own freedoms and security . . . but then we really don’t want to arm them do we? I wonder why? Because every group we have ever backed turns out as bad as the one’s before maybe?
So by all means, you can invite every Mulim in the world to your shores if you like and tell yourself that it is the Christian thing to do whilst Christianity will soon gets its last nail driven into its coffin.
We are no better but at least some of us are trying to stop the idiots in Washington from visiting this ‘solution’ on us without our consent. Of course, we have one thing that helps us from being tyrannized by those who are ‘the few nutjobs’; Smith & Wesson. And without their help I don’t know how more violence is to be prevented in Europe. It is only a matter of time before they do something that you and the world will not be able to ignore. Reminds me of Chamberlain at the moment. But the people will speak, or act, at some point hopefully to bring this insanity to an end.
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Why the over-reaction? Who, including our bishops, of whom you are so critical, and the Pope, of whom you are also so critical, has suggested abortions should continue? So why write that, as though someone, other than your reactive imagination, had suggested it?
You read the denier website, I spent 30 years working with real, actual scientists who did not start off with the hypothesis that climate change was man-made, but came to that conclusion; it is called scientific research. Every responsible government in the world agrees, as do most scientists, so if you want to stick your fingers in your ears and say ‘la, la, la, not listening, I know better, I read an on line piece’, then that’s your prerogative; but as you said about Iraq, you don’t have the intell, and it’s what you pay governments for; or does that only apply when when it comes to pointless wars?
If you are saying that the gutter-press here are stirring up xenophoia, well, what’s new; at least we don’t have a leader who wants to build a wall and boasts that he’ll get foreigners to pay for it. How’s that one going, by the way?
Again, why the over-reaction? We are not inviting every Muslim in the world here. To remind you, we were talking about those hit by the actions of our own governments. The USA can afford to ignore the crisis it helped create because Europe is taking the refugees. On the whole we are doing a good job of it. The gutter press pick up on the inevitable problems, which allows some of the site you use for news to pretend that this is the whole picture. To characterise looking after those needing refuge as ‘insanity’ is an odd way of proclaiming the Gospel of Christ. Presumably at the last you will say that these people were not Christ, so you felt no obligation to feed, clothe or even empathise with them; best of luck with that one as an excuse.
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So Cupich did not forbid his priests from lending a Catholic presence at pro-life demonstrations or abortion mills? And the Pope did not raise up the man to be Bishop of Chicago and put on a red hat? The culture of death has now become anathema for those in the Francis circle of pro-homosexualists and pro-marxists.
So you have bought into the left’s xenophobia arguments I see. Good luck with that one. About as useful as calling people racists.
So how are you vetting your Muslim refugees. They come from every country in the Middle East. Looks more like a migration to me rather than a desperate effort to flee tyranny. Young men with expenisve leather jackets, designer jeans and Gucci sunglasses seem to be largest demographic.
You deal with them in your own backyard . . . I’ll vote to leave them in the Middleast and support giving them the necessities of life. You assume that these people ‘need refuge’. I don’t. Where are the Christians who maybe do need to escape that land where they have suffered for far too long? Something else is going on here and it has to do with globalism and the disruption is bought and paid for by the elites backed by the UN and the likes of George Soros . . . the experts that the Pope and his bishops like to side with. Eventually, you will sell your heritage for a bowl of pottage.
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I think you will find that the Bishops and the Pope have spoken consistently against abortion; if you are expecting every bishop to be on message 100% of the time, you will always be able to find the exception; but it is the exception, something you seem unwilling to even acknowledge. It is as though anything short of 100% has you commenting as though it were the rule and not the exception?
You seem unwilling to admit that xenophobia and racism exist? Are you denying they exist, or is it just that it is easier to pretend they don’t. Here’s an example from the Express:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/786782/Asylum-seeker-Croydon-child-migrant-assault-London-gang
If you think most of the refugees are in Gucci, then God help your comprehension of what it is like to be forced from your home by a war started by those who can just go home and blame their governments for it.
You can vote all you like to leave them in the Middle East, but oddly enough, they still come, as a result, in part, of your vote in the past. Seems as though you’re happy to vote for the actions but didn’t want to take any responsibility.
I am not sure, except for your conspiracy theory, what Soros has to do with anything here. He was not a Republican neo-con advising Bush to go to war against Iraq, or a Republican Senator of Congressman, or even voter, so how even your conspiracy theories smuggle him in here is a mystery. You seem totally unwilling to admit your country smashed up Iraq and has made a huge mess. I voted against the war, and my MP voted against it, but I still admit my country has some responsibility and ought to help. You seem to want to pass by on the other side whilst somehow proclaiming a respect for our heritage. Best of luck with that one. By the way, how’s the great wall of Texas coming along 🙂
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You keep thinking that in 10 weeks Trump will fix everything Obama wrecked in 8 years. How typical of you liberals who use Soros money and Hollywood money to obstruct anything that he was elected to fix. If nothing he was elected for is done due to the cry babies on the left then they will deal with a civil war. Americans are getting tired of their bull. We are sick and tired of searches at the airport of little old ladies and cripples and the constant intrusions of our privacy. Don’t much like the gathering of of intel on every citizen and our loss of freedoms due to this balance of keeping us safe. Safe from what? You know but you will not say it. We are bringing something far worse to our shores than what we left in the Mideast. We are exacerbating the problems and you aid an abet them. I can’t help it if others voted for these liberals and neocons. I never did. I am consistent in my beliefs.
I love all of this self-righteousness on the left concerning human rights and yet am quite puzzled by their blindness when it comes to our own human rights or the violations of those rights by Muslims and making of ourselves to be victims. Well, that will teach us! It makes about as much sense as when the Hollywood elites slept under bridges with the homeless to show solidarity with the poor. What hypocrisy and foolishness. You live in a fools paradise.
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Not sure what that diatribe had to do with anything I wrote. You have the President you wanted, and seem to be getting ready to explain why he failed. That he seems an alien to the truth, and useless at politics, may well be part of it. Better blame Soros the all-powerful.
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Does someone fail in their presidency after the first 10 weeks? Really?
Seems you are the Amazing Krekin of Johnny Carson fame. It is only that you hope for him to fail. He may and we have never seen a more hysterical left than we have now. Don’t let their hysteria infect you mind . . . they are always a bit unhinged and you really don’t want what they have to offer.
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BTW, the NCCB/USCCB has a storied past. Our bishops today come from the appointments made by Bernardin: https://bryanhehirexposed.wordpress.com/category/national-council-of-catholic-bishops-nccb/
This piece is well investigated . . . in fact it leaves out some stuff. My diocese was up to its ears in this whole mess.
So you might understand with what contempt I hold this group.
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I always appreciate your wisdom chalcedon. That was a very thoughtful post.
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Thanks, Malcolm. The fact is these people need help, and as Christians we have a choice – be the Levite or the priest, or be the Good Samaritan. I am not sure what Scopp recommends here.
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I don’t think we have done enough in Britain. Our response has been very weak. Strangely enough I thing Maggie Thatcher would have done much more. For all her “the lady was not for turning,” she was a very compassionate woman.
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it is all very disturbing, Malcolm, and we are not finished yet, alas.
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Try as I might, I can’t see the arbitrary limiting of history to post-Operation Iraqi Freedom. It’s similar to talking about World War II without speaking of The Great War As always, much is relevant, much is not, both in Islam’s reaction, and ours.
Would Hitler or Stalin have come to power without World War I? Seems unlikely to me. Would we have invaded Iraq, if not for 911? I doubt it. So it goes both ways.
That said, you are exactly on point. The basic problem here is with the breakdown of our society, and of Christianity itself. Annie spoke on mine this morning about how many of these people (our home-grown ones) are the products of broken homes. She’s right.
But beyond that, it’s difficult to simply blame our sin and call this the ‘Wrath of God’. It may well be, but it may be also a normal result of that sin. I think they are rather indistinguishable. It also doesn’t really matter, because in either case, if we repent the sin, and quit doing it, well the problem will decrease. But we show little sign of that.
The basic cause of Europe’s decline is beyond question what you state. America also has the problem, although not as badly. But I fear it is beyond the tipping point, although I’m quite sure much the same was said during the Black Death, and it spurred a new growth.
Then again, in Syria, we did little but talk, since our President had enough sense to take a cue from Parliament. Lybia was simply stupidity, the blind leading the lame. All Hubris, all the time.
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The problem here is that we all know that 9/11 had nothing to do with the Second Iraq War, and none of the lies told about it were true. Without that, and the breakup of Iraq which followed, we’d have had none of any of this, so I am afraid that 9/11 etc have nothing to do with the crisis – except in so far as our Governments decided to use it as an excuse to invade Iraq and destroy the balance of terror in the region.
The question remains, what to we do about the millions of human lives changed forever – Scoop seems to have no answer except to blame neo-Marxists for everything.
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Who are these neo- Marxists?
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It’s all the fault of a man called Alinsky, of whom only Right-Wing Americans have heard.
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No, I disagree. In practical terms it may not have. But the support for it in America was predicated on striking back at all enemies, all of whom were undeclared. It’s inconceivable that we would have struck without 911, or we would likely have done so, the armistice violations were enough to cause that anytime since Gulf War I.
I don’t have much of an answer either, really. But placing the blame is basically unimportant. Other than that, it is our responsibility to repair the damage, perhaps. There is something to be said that if you anger the tiger enough to get bit, it’s your problem to find a doctor. But in no sense is it a duty of our governments. They are not, can not be, Christians, Madison defined their role, notwithstanding that they often overreach. It is our responsibility, as Christians, to do what we can.
You and Scoop (as was I) were speaking of the migrations to America. Well, what we did was isolate them and discriminate against them, until they assimilated, then they become some of us. It seemed to work fairly well. Sounds harsh, but sometimes, harsh short term is kinder long term.
The basic problem is a clash of cultures, intended or not. If we don’t enforce British (or American) law on all residents, we return to the rule of the strongest, and that’s no solution, at all. In our case, we can define it as the intersection of the executive’s duty to enforce the law, and equal protection of the law, that is the linchpin of the rule of law.
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But in what way was Iraq America’s ‘enemy’? Iran was, but Bush stupidly took out the only counter-balance to Iran and helped unbalance the region. If you are going to strike out, best not do it like a bar room brawl
The USA is far enough away not to have to deal with the human consequences of its decision to destroy the balance of terror in the Middle East, but the rest of us don’t have the Atlantic between us and the refugees, so we have no choice but to do something.
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An excellent point, the only thing I read at the time that might shed light is that Saddam wasn’t cooperating and that American forces there would provide a buffer against Iran. Seems weak, I know, but the writer made a somewhat reasonable case, as least that’s how I remember it. But, we’re not very good at long term occupation, we tend to get bored and go home, wonder how Germany would have turned out without the Soviet threat.
Nobody’s far enough away, it’s not as bad here, but the problem exists, usually through Mexico, although I expect it will increase from Canada as well. Minneapolis, specifically, is starting to have much trouble. In our case, so far, it’s usually Somalis, and lots were imported, sadly as cheap labor, when Hispanics got too Americanized.
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The whole thing made no sense at the time, except in so far as Neo-Cons (not neo-Marxists) wanted to make democracies in the region – a mad undertaking, as there is no history of it and no desire for it!
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That’s what soured me on the whole nation building racket. No history, and no desire either. It made it’s comeuppance in Egypt. One of the worst things I can remember.
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Indeed. Iran was the real enemy, and how the Mullahs must have been laughing when America destroyed their one real enemy in the region.
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I agree, and it still is. Why on Earth couldn’t Carter have had more sense? The Shah was nobody’s idea of a saint, but compared to the Mullah’s…
That’s what bothered me today with the demonization of Putin, he’s surely no saint either, but we’d be wise to at least try to split him off from Iran, and there are signs it could be done, and deal with them finally.
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I agree, Neo. Some people never learn – Putin isn’t my cup of tea, either, but do people really want the Mullahs to have no enemies in the region?
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Well, I expect that at that point the Saudis, the Egyptians, and the Israelis might have something to say. Speaking of unlikely allies, but it seems to be happening.
The Saudis (and everybody else in the oil business, even the Russians) have a problem; our cost of shale production keeps dropping, we can make money at about $40 a barrel last I read, and it’s continually improving. Many in the middle east are already dipping into their sovereign wealth funds. I doubt I’m the only one who remembers how we killed the Soviet Union. I’m quite sure Putin, for one, does.
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Putin certainly does. Best thing we can do is nothing much for now.
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Agreed. Simply keeping on keeping on is the best prescription right now.
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