Theology which includes philosophy and dogma as well as a variety of other disciplines is akin to poetry. Neither poetry or theology are easy flowing rivers. Both are fountains from which meaning can be slowly drawn. No two individuals are the same and different ideas or ways of thinking suit different people. Psychology plays an important role in all this. poetry and theology require creative and sustained reading. There is rarely any quick clarity in any discipline that is worth effort and time to assimilate.
Get a group of people together talking about any subject and you’ll discover very quickly that there are no easy answers.
When I was an undergraduate I took the study of John’s Gospel in Koine Greek as my special subject. It wasn’t too long before I had to cope with views and ideas that seemed to be totally at odds with each other. All seemed to be right and all seemed to be wrong. One had to pick and choose and come to a conclusion. I found Raymond E. Brown’s commentaries on St John to be the most intelligent and meaningful. I still do and his new introduction to the Gospel of John published after his death and completed by Fr Francis J.Moloney is superb. (Fr Raymond Brown died in 1998.) The new introduction was published in 2003.
The entire Bible is closer to poetry than newspaper speak. Theology is much the same. There is no one meaning in any theological debate among a group of Christians. We don’t live in a world to-day where we can claim infallible authority for anything. Every text is filtered through the eyes of the reader, ( the ears of the listener)
As Marilynne Robinson has written in her novel Gilead, “nothing true can be said about God from a posture of defence”. We all know how biblical and theological bullets can be fired in debates to score against the enemy. Such vaporized readings and dogmatic utterances will never win souls.
The ultra dogmatic approach to faith fails to recognize something else – that from its very beginnings the human intuition that the world is a gift, that it has a divine origin, and that life and love come from this same source, was explored and shared poetically. No other language could possibly begin to do justice to the inspiring, daunting mysteries of reality itself. The Book of Genesis is the classic example of imaginative and poetic inspiration that says as much about its authors, (J.E.D&P) as of course “God.”
Ever since priests and peoples of the world’s religions have been aware of the numinous they have opened their arms to invoke the name of God and have done so in poetic scriptures pouring from their lips and dramatized into movement and liturgy. It is also striking that the Holy Texts of the world’s religions, believed by many to be revealed by God as holy wisdom from beyond the human mind, are often found in poetic form. It is acknowledged by the world’s religious devotees that God is very clearly a poet.
After the seas are all cross’d, (as they seem already cross’d,)
After the great captains and engineers have accomplish’d their work,
After the noble inventors, after the scientists, the chemist, the geologist, ethnologist,
Finally shall come the poet worthy that name,
The true son of God shall come singing his songs.
(Walt Whitman)
Quoted in Walter Brueggemann’s Finally comes the poet – Daring Speech for Proclomation. (Brueggmannn is Old Testament Professor at Columbia Theological Seminary, Atlanta.
I’m a big fan of reading the Bible in its proper historical context – which should come as no surprise since I’m a classicist. I liked a lot of what I read here. We get into needless trouble with scientific-style debates about Genesis because we want the Bible to be a scientific textbook. It isn’t. Just as it is unreasonable to judge a law textbook for not giving you medical information, so it is unreasonable to judge the Bible for not providing physics and biology information: that is not its purpose.
What we ought to pay more attention to is the supernatural narrative and worldview that the Bible elucidates. This is not affected by developments within science because the two operate largely within separate systems of thought, which Swinburne illustrates with his version of the teleological (design) argument. Christians ought to pay more attention in their study of Genesis 1-3 to the way it is written as a polemic against Mesopotamian and Canaanite cosmologies and theogonies.
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Nicholas
You’re a man after my own heart .
My favourite Old Testament Scholar is Walter Brueggemann. His Theology of the Old Testament and related books are part of my regular theological diet. His book “The Prophetic Imagination” is one of his best. In it he covers a vast spectrum from Moses to Jesus but concentrating on Moses, Jeremiah and Jesus.
I think my favourite book of Brueggemann is Finally comes the Poet.
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I shall have to look into that. I’m a big fan of Dr Michael Heiser, who is a Semitics scholar. Alas, with a lot of the academic material it is difficult to get a hold of the scholarship at a reasonable price, but he aims to make scholarly findings as easily accessible as possible for the general public. I’m awaiting delivery of his new book next month which looks at Jesus’ ministry through the lens of the Nephilim narrative in Genesis 6, 1 Enoch, Jubilees, Genesis 11, Deuteronomy 32, etc.
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That looks good. I have heard of him. My Church gave me a substantial book token for Christmas. So far I haven’t spent it. 1 Enoch is a fascinating book. The average Christian has little idea of the mixed sources of the faith.
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You’re absolutely right. Alas one of the fallouts of our canonical history. Well, at least good work is going into the field now and I think it is useful: there’s a lot that can be gained from this for our worldview and for pastoral practice in ministering to people who have had supernatural experiences. I think it is also relevant to eschatological preaching and teaching: St Paul mentions that human believers will judge the angelic orders at the resurrection, and Rev. 12 mentions the tumult created on earth when Satan and his followers are cast out of heaven.
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“Reversing Hermon: Enoch, the Watchers, and the Forgotten Mission of Jesus Christ”
Is this the book. Its £15 on Amazon UK. The following is from Amazon.
Reversing Hermon is a groundbreaking work. It unveils what most in the modern Church have never heard regarding how the story of the sin of the Watchers in 1 Enoch 6-16 helped frame the mission of Jesus, the messiah. Jews of the first century expected the messiah to reverse the impact of the Watchers transgression. For Jews of Jesus day, the Watchers were part of the explanation for why the world was so profoundly depraved. The messiah would not just revoke the claim of Satan on human souls and estrangement from God, solving the predicament of the Fall. He would also not only bring the nations back into relationship with the true God by defeating the principalities and powers that governed them. Jews also believed that the messiah would rescue humanity from self-destruction, the catalyst for which was the sin of the Watchers and the influence of what they had taught humankind. The role of Enochs retelling of Genesis 6:1-4 in how New Testament writers wrote of Jesus and the cross has been largely lost to a modern audience. Reversing Hermon rectifies that situation. Topics include: understanding Genesis 6:1-4 and the Sin of the Watchers in Their Original Context; how the ancient Mesopotamian story of the apkallu aligns with Gen 6:1-4, was preserved in 1 Enoch, and sets the stage for the theme of reversing the evil of the Watchers; how the theme of reversing the transgression of the Watchers colors the gospel accounts of the birth of Jesus, his genealogy, and his ministry; how the writings of Peter and Paul allude to the sin of the Watchers and present Jesus as overturning the disastrous effects of their sins against humanity; and how the descriptions of the antichrist, the end-times Day of the Lord, and the final judgment connect to Genesis 6 and the nephilim. Though every topic.
Its coming out at the end of this month.
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Yes, that’s the book. His previous one, “Unseen Realm” is also good as an introduction to the topic and has good footnotes/endnotes, but I doubt you need it given your seminary training and private reading. He has also written some good fiction which is quite entertaining if you have ever watched “The X-Files” or been exposed to conspiracy material. He has a section on his blog where he debunks a lot of that stuff while drawing attention to what he considers legitimate research.
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Well it looks really good. I’m considering pre- ordering it. Amazon. uk are excellent.
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I’m interested to see what he says about the Antichrist because he generally doesn’t like eschatological speculation and he doesn’t buy into the conspiracy theory that the Nephilim/Reptilians are walking the earth today as “alien hybrids” as per The X-Files.
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I have had only what I can describe as ghostly experiences, Hauntings is perhaps a better word. .
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I cannot be certain in my own case; the experience I relayed on one of your previous posts could be explained as an example of sleep paralysis. Nevertheless, I don’t think sleep paralysis in and of itself means that any “hallucination” encountered is purely of one’s own making. I do actually pray for protection against such experiences, some of the visions people describe they have experienced seem almost unbearable, and when I was younger I used to have terrible dreams.
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I have odd premonitions on occasions. During the celebration of the Eucharist one Sunday I had a premonition that I ought to go and visit a lady in Hospital at Plymouth.
Launceston, where I was the priest, is some way from Plymouth. She was only there for a day or so. However the feeling was so strong that immediately after the service I drove the thirty or so miles to the Hospital.
I took the sacrament with me. On arrival I gave her Holy Communion. She thanked me and said “Now I can die in peace.” And with that she died. This iwasn’t the first time that this kind of thing has happened.
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Dear Malcolm, I entirely agree that God is the supreme poet. Also supreme musician, artist and every other creative activity. Even Andre Gide – not a great advert for Christianity – once remarked “Your words are true, O Christ, because they are so beautiful.” But when we turn to theology it is slightly different. Theologians can’t just take poetic licence, (e.g de Chardin, whom we have been discussing.) For instance, the Creed is a set of theological statements which we are meant to accept. (Scott Hahn the US Scripture scholar and convert, has just written a book explaining the Creed very well.) Also, if there is no ultimate authority what happens to dogma? We all like to make dogmatic statements on all sorts of subjects but (speaking as a Catholic) ‘dogmatic statements’ are narrowly defined; they are like the Creed; statements which are to be believed, not endlessly debated. Again with regard to infallibility; (as a Catholic) I believe Christ did intend one Church rather than thousands of different denominations and that this Church is, in very narrow ways, ‘infallible’ or authoritative in her pronouncements. As Pope Benedict once said, today we live in “a dictatorship of relativism”: there is your ‘truth’ and there is my ‘truth’. That is poison to objective truth; and objective truth presupposes authority – and dogma. This is not to take away the poetry of faith. I agree with Gide. I know the Gospels better than the OT (the legacy of being a Catholic, I fear) and everything Christ says is breathtakingly beautiful as poetry – even His condemnations. I wouldn’t describe the Creed as ‘poetry’ – but it is still essential – and magisterial.
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Amen Francis. Man is supposed to be able to hold an inflexible conviction on a truth. Just as I have an inflexible conviction that gravity will hold me to the earth I also have an inflexible conviction to the truths of the Catholic Faith. Too often these days i hear the echoing of Pilate mockingly saying, “what is truth?” Relativism is the rage as it is the ultimate ‘tolerance’.
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Good for you that’s your choice. It isn’t mine.
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The vile and spite of Malcolm’s comments are sad. Although, I do not comment as much, I do read the blog still. At this time, I believe I will retire from that action. As I wish to still have respect for those here.
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Christ may have intended there to be one Church. However did he intend there to be the kind of magisterial church exhibited by Roman Catholicism?
Quite simply I don’t accept that the RC church is that Church. It isn’t something that can really be argued about because each of us sees reality from one’s own personal angle. The New Testament presents us with several churches. That one Church, the Roman Catholic one, gained superiority over the others was probably an accident of history. The Emperor Constantine was one of the key players in that. I don’t think we can avoid a certain relativity in our church choices.
As an Anglican I say the Nicene Creed every Sunday and fully accept it within the Anglican set up.
In many ways we don’t choose which church we shall be in. I was baptized a Christian in the Anglican Church and I’m more than happy about that. I went on to be ordained. Some Anglicans have left and become RC’s fine. Personally its all a matter of choice. In that sense its a little like poetry.
All of us has to live with many anomalies in which the churches play a role.
All shall have prizes. The important thing is fidelity to Christ the rest is peripheral.
.
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Are you not holding to an inflexible personal truth for you then? We simply disagree on what is truth and by what authority we hold that truth . . . or perhaps that there are no objective truths at all. It seems that in order ot merely communicate with others we have to assume a commonality of some held truths as a starting point or premise to be built upon. Contradictory truths is a rational impossibility . . . something can’t be both true and false at the same time. Since God gave us rational thought one would think that it is possible for all men to come to the same truths if they are disposed towards it . . . whether it is revealed truth or natural truths. Diversity of truths is an oxymoron that results in total madness. Communication becomes impossible and all truths are equal . . . unless of course you are rigid and hold the position that real truths are objective which is in this age the ultimate sin of intolerance.
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scoop
I haven’t mentioned either the word truth or diversity. I used the two words inflexible attitudes. YOU mentioned the word truth and diversity. I used the word choices which avoids absolutes. “Attitude” dear boy is very different from your misrepresentation of my comment.
Here in Britain we have a mixed fellowship which we call “Churches Together.”
.Romans, Anglicans and Methodists meet regularly together to pray, study the Holy Scriptures and work for the good of the town. We have even even given holidays to poor children who live in crowded cities. Naturally we have positive attitudes to each other that avoids inflexibility. I can assure you that we mix well together, none of us are mad and enjoy life.
I really don’t know what you are on about.
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You didn’t need to Macolm, I knew it was an extention of your ad hominems aimed at me from the previous post: i. e. “Inflexible attitudes give Jesus a bad name. Orthodoxy can be a straight jacket and intolerable for the genuine seeker.”
It is obvious that your word ‘attitude’ in context makes one who is orthodox (which treats with what is true or untrue) and intolerable to a ‘genuine’ seeker such as yourself but excludes anyone who has tried to be as orthodox as possible.
Attitude definition: manner, disposition, feeling, position, etc., with regard to a person or thing; tendency or orientation, especially of the mind: a negative attitude; group attitudes.
Since all of my comments yesterday had to do with the writings which were not orthodox in the Catholic sense and defended the orthodoxy o this position drew your ire. It happens that orthodoxy deals with truths of the faith; therefore in the definition my own ‘position’ on a ‘thing’ and that thing being truth.
Sorry if I misinterpreted your meaning. I am all for people getting along and studying scripture together and yes there will be disagreements just as you have with me . . . though yours seems a bit personal rather than intellectual. But that is fine. If you had something else in mind then I misinterpreted and am actually not understanding what point is being made if not a call to simply disregard unorthodoxy and let it slide. Martyrs are the ultimate defenders of orthodoxy so this is only a mild defense of the teachings that I hold . . . so it should not have ruffled any feathers or suprised anyone that Catholic would defend the teachings of his Church.
But as I say . . . my bad . . . I assumed another attack on being rigid in my holding to my faith (which in another ad hominem you described as ‘my understanding’) as if it were a misunderstaning of the Church’s teachings. I which case I would have been quite open to your actually pointing out what teaching I misunderstood and correct me in such.
Playing the man and not the ball is a real problem in communications and sometimes we do it almost unconsciously. Hopefully that was the case yesterday.
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Isn’t “All shall have prizes” the same as “we all go to Heaven”? What about those who, with malice, turn against Truth? Appalling thought but I expect it does happen. Coleridge described Iago’s behaviour in Othello as “the mystery of iniquity”. I have been reading a wonderful book, “Christ’s View From the Cross” published in 1927 by a French Dominican, Fr Sertillanges, who had spent a year in Jerusalem. It is pure poetry and you would love it. When discussing Christ’s words, “Father forgive them, they know not what they do”, the author says Christ is referring to the Roman soldiers who were simply doing their duty; He was not talking about the Pharisees who were mocking Him on the Cross. The soldiers, in other words, were ignorant and brutish; the Jewish leaders clever and malevolent.
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The book sounds good Fancis.
I’m reading Thoreau’s Walden at present. I love this quotation
Why should we be in such desperate haste to succeed, and in such desperate enterprises? If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, how ever measured or far away
.–“Walden'”or “Life in the Woods– Where I Lived, and What I Lived For”
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“It isn’t something that can really be argued about because each of us sees reality from one’s own personal angle.”
A disciple of relativism…
I’m out.
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I recently bought a book of poems by Olav H. Hauge – Luminous Spaces. This is one of them. Its translation from the Norwegian by Olav Grinde.
Your Way
No-one has marked out the road
you are to take
out in the unknown
out in the blue.
This is your road.
Only you
will take it. And there’s no
turning back.
And you haven’t marked your road
either.
And the wind smoothes out your tracks
on desolate hills.
I wrote a review for Amazon of the Book.
5 out of 5 stars
A Starry Vault over the Soul
By Malcolm U on 17 Mar. 2017
Format: Paperback
I debated for sometime whether or not I should buy this book. I already have “The Dream We Carry” and was immediately taken with Olav Hauge’s poems. The title Luminous Spaces drew me irresistibly towards Olav’s Selected Poems and Journals. It was somehow vital to find out more about this solitary and troubled man who could write such wonderful poetry.
Reading Luminous Spaces is a glimpse into a man’s inner soul. In the entry for April 1929 he asks the question “What is the soul? Is it a finer organism clothed in a material body?A reflection of the external world? Certainly it is all this, but isn’t it something more? Perhaps our soul cannot be comprehended, cannot be held nor embraced by our material means. Let poetry be a starry vault over the soul.”
I hope I may have whetted the appetite of many to read and meditate on these poems and reflections by a great poet. .
These are extraordinarily moving poems that continue to resonate in one’s soul. I’m so glad that I have purchased Luminous Spaces. Olav Hauge’s poems are short but manifest the wild beauty of his Norwegian land and seascape
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I have been reading poetry by Czeslaw Milosz, the Polish poet (and Nobel-prize-winner). The problem (as you will know) of reading translated poetry is how much of the ‘music’ of the language has been lost in the translation? I wonder what those poems sound like when recited in Norwegian? Some translations are works of beauty in themselves; I am thinking of Scott-Moncrieff’s translation of Proust.
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In the book “The Dream We Carry” the Norwegian is printed on the opposite page. I have attempted to speak the lines aloud. However the English translations are very good. Olav translated an enormous amount of English and other European poems into Norwegian. He was a great lover of Shakespeare and Chaucer.
His journals in “Luminous Spaces” are wonderful. The book is over 400 pages, and covers 70 years of his life. Filled with insight and personal reflections his words are luminous with significance and meaning.He was an extraordinarily well read man.
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I love this one by Olav Hauge
Don’t give me the whole truth,
don’t give me the sea for my thirst,
don’t give me the sky when I ask for light,
but give me a glint, a dewy wisp, a mote
as the birds bear water-drops from their bathing
and the wind a grain of salt.
and this
“Ocean”
This is the ocean.
All serious,
vast and grey.
Yet just as the mind
in solitary moments
suddenly opens its
shifting reflections
to secret depths
– so the ocean, too,
one blue morning
may open itself
to sky and solitude.
Look, says the gleaming ocean,
I too have stars
and blue depths.
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http://www.boloji.com/index.cfm?md=Content&sd=PoemArticle&PoemArticleID=78
This gives one info about Olav Hauge
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A Catholic perspective from which some would say is of the past. I would not be one of those. It goes along with Fulton Sheen’s plea for Intolerance that Scoop posted yesterday.
Ecumenical Madness http://www.torchofthefaith.com/news.php?extend.1579.1#page
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