I am very grateful to those who have posted here in what has turned out to be a more prolonged absence than I had anticipated. Last Saturday, instead of being at home, resting, and catching up with various other things, I was at the Wembley Area at Flame 2017 – as the Catholic Herald reported. At least one of my Twitter followers said what no doubt many thought – which was was this the sort of thing our young people needed? I can imagine more than one of our readers wondering what on earth it was all about, and what was Catholic about it?
I will not say that I was not a trifle apprehensive. The music is not my sort of music, and a great deal of public emoting is not my style; but so what? This was not about me – it was about Catholicism. If someone wants to tell me that Catholicism does not embrace everything from the Tridentine Mass through to ‘Worship Music’, I simply ask them to think again about the meaning of the word Catholic. There were more than 100000 young people in that auditorium. As well as music they heard an inspiring address from Cardinal Bo of Myanmar about the Church in his country and its experiences during his lifetime; the heroism of the story and the patent holiness of the man ensured a rapt audience – 10000 young people heard a story few of them would have heard before and were reminded that the Faith requires guardians and courage; and they found a new hero, even though the Cardinal disclaimed any such claims; he was trending on Twitter for a while!
Those 10000 young people were also exposed to a Eucharistic Adoration – many for the first time. For some of us that was too short a part of the day, but it was done with great dignity and awe; and 10000 young people were lost in silence; I am told some were taking photos, but that is what they do. I suspect many will go back to their parishes and ask questions about it. They were also treated to a long session on the refugee crisis, and if some of the contributions differed not at all from what a secular liberal would have said, Cardinal Nichols reminded us that we are all made in the image of God, and Christ died for us all – we are our brothers’ keeper. We care because when we see the outcast, we see Christ, and when He says we did not help Him, He means that we did not help those with whom He stands. Our selfishness was challenged.
So, yes, there was rock music type worship songs, but if you read the verses on the screen (you surely couldn’t have heard them!) their message too was that Christ who had died had risen and we were saved by Him and in Him and through Him. As I watched the young people from my university dance and sing, I thought to myself how wonderful it was that young people could be so alive in the Faith. We went home inspired. I’m not sure I’ll ever like that sort of music, but I could grow to like that sort of thing.
All Along the Watchtower 
Ha! Not my style, either. But, you know, a part of me envies you the chance. In any case, while you and I may not believe a proper hymn has been written since 1940, well actually we know better, and Bach was a dangerous innovation once, as well. Catholic is what it says on the tin, whether Roman flavor or not.
And this is what the whole thing is about, “As I watched the young people from my university dance and sing, I thought to myself how wonderful it was that young people could be so alive in the Faith.”
I do hope, though, that you remembered your hearing protection! 🙂
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Nor my style, Bach may have been an innovation, but it was never amplified in those days.
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True, but a cathedral choir and organ going fortissimo, might tell health and safety that hearing protection is required! 🙂
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Ah, but what joy.:)
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Agreed! 🙂
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Maybe, the folks who orchestrate these Youth Ministry festivals would do well to read this exchange of letters concerning the state of youth [youth ministry] and the spiritual music that is discussed in this article.http://www.onepeterfive.com/youth-ministers-give-up-past-embrace/
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Maybe, but do remind us all of how many young people are being brought to the Church by 1Peter5?
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Does it really matter who published the article written by the distinquished professor? You would do better to deal with the ideas rather than your bias.
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The ideas are familiar – the concept of them bringing young people into the Church is unfamiliar – so if you or he can provide some examples of it working, that would be more useful.
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Quite simply, just look at the growth of the youth within the Traditional Rite churches and the number of priests and religious that they produce. That is proof enough. If you think what we are doing presently is working then you might want to give something else a try . . . unless you think we haven’t been liberal enough in our doctrines and our new mercy without regard to sorrow.
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If, as we say, we are Catholic, it seems to me we have to be open to more than one form of evangelisation.
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I think you are taking liberties with the concept of evangelization when Tradition is absent.
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Did you miss the photo of Eucharistic Adoration? Is that not part of Tradition?
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Of course not. But even so, what is the impact when adoration is divorced from the solemnity and the tanscendent form of the Holy Sacrifice that is presented every week for the edification of souls? Once this connection is broken then adoration will have perhaps a momentary effect but not a lasting one . . . not one that carries over to their Sunday worship which almost negates the transcendent quality and holy experience of meeting the Very God in the Eucharist. They will come to either disregard adoration as a joke or the Mass as a joke. There is no continuity of experience.
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Actually I disagree with you Scoop on this. Theologically you are correct; but I think you underestimate the power of Eucharistic Adoration to change people’s lives. I know of several cases and have read of many more, concerning people outside the Catholic Church, who have come inside a church and who have been irresistibly drawn to the Person within the Tabernacle, as well as experiencing an irresistible attraction when Christ is exposed in the monstrance during Adoration. St Patrick’s church in Soho Square London (an area very like the hedonistic Corinth as described by St Paul in the old days) has regular Eucharistic Adoration during which complete strangers, many of them young people, are invited into the semi-dark church, where candles have been lit and sacred music is played. For some it is life-changing; for others grace works more slowly.
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Francis, of course there are selective souls who are open, by some received Grace, to grow in faith and to immerse themselves completely in the Faith of their Fathers. I was lucky for I had traditionally minded priests who were ordained long before the Novus Ordo came into being. And I, likewise, have tried to impart this same understanding of the Mass to others . . . but the success rate is not anywhere close to what it should be even amongst those who temporarily have a movement deep in their souls that beckons them to a fundamental change in their lives. More often the reason for those who see a ‘temporary’ change of direction is a slow weaning caused by a lack of support for the beliefs that they had caught a short glimpse of in these programs. This, in my experience, is due in part with the mundane worship that over time wears down their desire for this new transcendent thirst for the Holy. It sadly falls into a distant memory and perhaps a quaint little reminder of that which no longer exists in any universal or catholic sense. Eventually, it is forgotten altogether, unless God so moves them again in this life to seek out this forgotten experience and to embrace it for a lifetime.
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This isn’t a debate about the merits of the Norvus Ordo and the Old Rite is it? The parish priest at St Patrick’s, Fr Alexander Sherbrooke, celebrates Mass in the Novus Ordo, but with great reverence and recollection – and has drawn in a thriving parish community (including the young.) Of course, there is more than simply Eucharistic Adoration; he runs a soup kitchen for the poor, natural fertility classes faithful to the encyclical Humanae Vitae for couples, a catechetics/mission programme designed to help young Catholics share their Faith and so on. I should add that St Patrick’s is fairly unique among parishes (though my daughter’s own parish of the Oxford Oratory is also very vigorous, with youth groups for boys and girls, young adult groups and so on.)
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No it isn’t though it could be very easily if we were to examine how the ideas of Benedict XVI had limited success in transforming the culture into one where the ordinary and the extraordinary would inform one another in a way that would safeguard the teachings and the transcendent qualities of the tradition. Sadly, his resignation interrupted any fruits that might have been made, or else he recognized that he was trying to push the bus uphill and that he was getting nowhere.
https://www.firstthings.com/article/2017/04/return-to-form
Bishop Bruskewitz also had great success throughout his diocese . . . supplying more priests than any diocese in the US year after year. It is simply that these are anomalies and exceptions which is clear by the lack of vocations overall and the lack of large families etc. And as such, most youths do not receive what they need most; good and proper formation in the faith. I do not see this problem getting better but in my own area of the US I find it getting worse once again.
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I do wonder quite what the point of constantly denigrating one form of Mass is – does it not simply sow dissent> We are where we are, and those who want something which looks like a Calvinist vcersion of catholicism, where only a tiny remnant can be saved, and who think that links to TLM are, of course, free to believe that. They may find themselves the only ones in heaven, and if not, then they will be pleased to see the rest of us.
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I have no earthly idea about all the conclusions you are drawing only that it is easy to tell a Rembrandt from a Pollock and a gourmet meal from a happy meal at McDonalds. As to what results from the changes in regards to the salvation of souls will only be known in the next world. But the impoverishment of the faith has undergone the same impoverishment of our tastes in music, art and cuisine and thereby we have lost perhaps the best means of communication of the spiritual life that ever existed. Sadly, most people these days have never seen or witnessed what they have lost. So you won’t see folks clamoring for that which they don’t know . . . just like I wouldn’t ask a restaurant owner to put an item on the menu if I had never tasted it. You seem to think that once you make a turn there is no way to correct course. The experiment has largely failed and Benedict XVI wanted us to integrate the older Rite into the New Rite . . . but he ran into resistance from bishops who apparently have no taste for doing so and folks like yourself who rather than trying to make things better are satisfied where things are clearly not working out as intended. And if these radical changes are working out as intended, then what does that say about the intentions themselves?
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But how very poor the world would be were Rembrandt the only type of artist allowed. There was a time the Church tried to ban polyphony – and how impoverished our music would be had that succeeded. God makes us diverse and we make diverse types of art, music, liturgy etc. We all have a tendency to fetishise our our taste, but different things appeal to different people. If the Catholic Church cannot be catholic, who can?
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I won’t feel a bit poorer if I never see another felt banner and modern wood carving that has all of the emotion of a work of art by a kindergartner. I also will not feel at a loss if I never have to hear Shine Jesus Shine or Lord of the Dance again.
So diversity is the key word here for your money. Unity, which was the hallmark of the Christian message is now a type of relativist institution that offers to God the best that men have to offer as well as the schleppy stuff that we hear in most parishes? Fetishise our tastes? Please C. Can you compare Shakespeare with the dialogue on Days of Our Lives? That’s not taste it is an objective standard that Church guarded jealously for 2 millenia and it is why it took the Church so long to lift the ban on polyphony. How long did it take for the banjos, guitars, folk music, negro spirituals and other ‘fetishes’ that may have been seen in Protestant churches infiltrate the sanctuary of our Churches where Jesus Christ abides in the Eucharist . . . we used to take care that we kept Whom this was being sung was kept at the forefront of our minds. Now it seems it is to entertain those who have different preferences in their music. This is not AM radio . . . they can hear worldly music and see worldly art anywhere outside of the Mass. Why must we drag it into our sanctuaries? Rock bands and dancers and a host of other brands of foolishness are now being defended by you as a legitimate form of music and art for the Catholic Holy Sacrifice of the Mass? You have a funny way of thinking of the Universal Church as being a unity of world and Church. Catholic was used to describe what once was a universal unity of belief and it was strictly regulated as was the Rite of the Mass, the music within the Mass, the architecture and the art. You seem to have it ass backwards.
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See today’s post – where I attempt to deal with some of these excellent point.
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Scoop, if the Old Rite, which I knew well when I was growing up, was so awe-inspiring (I know the quote by Hilaire Belloc that is always brought in at this point), why was there such a wholesale collapse of Faith and the practice of it in the 1960s? The sad fact is that Catholicism (in the UK) had become in most cases merely a cultural adjunct to people’s lives, not its life-giving centre. Mass was something you ‘did’ simply on Sundays. I was of that generation that learnt the Penny Catechism ‘by heart’. I am all for teaching children to learn by heart – but there has to be much more to catechesis than rote-learning.
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I suspect that the modernist movement felt unleashed and that experimentation in liturgy [condoned by the many options in the New Mass] gave every priest the feeling that he could put his own spin and take on the liturgy. In fact to this day much of what we see in the average parish is not anywhere to be found in the rubrics and instructions for the Novus Ordo.
I think that children learning the faith by heart was a good beginning. It leaves them with answers for almost any question outside of the faith who inquires. Of course there is much more to it . . . and those who believed what the penny catechisms said did learn more: went to junior seminaries in high school and then to major seminaries afterward.
I don’t know about the UK though here in the US if you went to a Catholic School you were taught by something equivalent to the series; Our Quest for Happiness, volumes I-IV. That series is beyond the understanding of most adults today and yet was widely used in grades 9-12.
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Yes, but that does not answer the question Francis posed. What was it that made priests do what you say? If things were so good before, why did they want to change?
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It is not I who is making an assertion about what the spirit of VII priests did, it is a matter of record, history and is simply proved by looking at most parishes today and their deviation from the Norms of the Mass that they claim to defend.
I have no idea. What makes people do anything in life? Perhaps they believe in it or they want to make a name for themselves or they are currying favor from people and craving popularity or a host of other reasons that could go on for pages on end. It is unanswerable. What makes people commit evil acts when they know that they are evil? It is a mystery for us humans but God knows and that is sufficient.
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So, on one side there was this splendid rock solid church where everyone was well-catechised and then a tiny conspiracy was enough to change everything. That sounds so unconvincing I can’t believe it is what you are saying.
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So you are totally oblivious to the pre-release of the Novus Ordo of all the experimentation that went on, all of the abuses after the release and the on-going abuses by a great number of parishes on-going to this day? I find that you are poorly informed if that is the case.
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So you are totally oblivious to the number of priests from your golden age who abused children and left their priesthood? If the Church had been what your imagination tells you, how would the experimentation have worked. Sorry, the facts and your version are at such variance, but they are.
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And you are oblivious to how many more are running about today and even occupy the highest seats of power in the vatican? What is at variance? Did the experimenters rush into parishes with their dancing girls, guitars, hootenannies and break up the altar rails and such or not?
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It’s the generation in the 70s who masterminded the cover up – when were they formed? The ‘experimenters’ were products of the pre-VII Church, so I don’t see how that supports your case/
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I explained in a previous response. That is a far too simple observation that takes nothing of the banned theologians and the stirrings of modernism in the Church for years. Now it is out in the open . . . is that a good thing? It would be if they were laicized and/or excommunicated.
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It seems far too soon to come to such a superficial verdict on men like Balthasar and de Chardin, but then I have no read all their writings.
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Nor is their reason to do so. The Church spoke and warned us and there are countless people who are are beatified or canonized to choose from We couldn’t read all of them even if we wanted. Why waste time on those who are found wanting in their theology whe there are plenty who are not?
It doesn’t matter which one’s were infecting the priests and seminarians but we know by the gravity of the fight from the Popes that modernism was on the rise and a clear and present danger to the Faith.
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You are wrong. The Church lifted the interdicts on their books, and if you haven’t read Balthasar you’ve missed a great deal.
This comes to the heart of the discussion, you wish to narrow down to things you feel comfortable with. That doesn’t sound very like anything Christ taught.
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I am aware of no prohibitions of either Bathasar or de Chardin . . . but of a warning concerning de Chardin by the Vatican. I am not aware that this warning was ever revoked for de Chardin and not aware that any formal warning was issued for von Balthasar. But that does not mean that there is much that is questionable about his thought: http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=3344
Now Balthasar was free to ‘hope’ that all should be saved but in this hope he does imply that he hopes that Christ and the Church and a long line early fathers were in error. So it introduces doubt into may minds as indicated by the article above.
I would add that the most famous of aparitions of our day, Fatima, showed the children of this aparition the horrors of hell and those who were suffering there. Now we do not have to believe in private revelation though I tend to take it quite seriously in light of the attention that the Church has paid to this particular event.
I have read some of von Balthasar but must attest that though he is a very good thinker that he also can confuse and bring into question our beliefs from the beginning.
And I would simply apply to de Chardin the words of scripture itself as he seems to have taken on the aura of a cult leader and those who hold to him are unwilling to even consider that he may be in error:
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. __Galatians 1:8
For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears:__2 Timothy 4:3
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I don’t know which brain-dead Csatholics would not have been aware of the possibility that all might be saved, but it certainly would not have been anyone familiar with the history of the Church. As far back as the Council of Orange the Church condemned Origen for teaching universalism, but it allowed for the pious hope that all could be saved, but forbade teaching it as doctrine. Balthasar is simply one in a long line of Catholic thinkers to explore this topic.
If one does not want to think about one’s faith then one should avoid books because they generally make you think.
Your reading of Catholic history seems very selective. Throughout our history we have had vigorous debates – the difference now is that thanks the Internet everyone can join in.
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Theological exploration is good, obviously, but sometimes it can lead ordinary people (who are not strong in their Faith) to think that mere speculation is ‘the Truth’. Then it’s not so good. Balthasar has been reinstated – but not de Chardin I think. I am open to correction here, but I think De Chardin went well beyond the boundaries of Truth in his ideas. As I understand it, his theories on evolution ended up leaving out a major fact of Christian belief: the Fall of Man, Original Sin and thus our own sinfulness. I recall a saintly old Jesuit visibly shuddering with horror when his name was mentioned, and telling me with great sorrow in his voice that “De Chardin gave up saying Mass by the end.” We forget the “horror of Heresy” that used to be the hallmark of devout Catholics. The old priest was not ‘judging’ de Chardin, but his ideas which he felt would lead people astray. And for a priest to give up the desire to say Mass struck him as awful. As to ‘all people being saved’ – what are we to make of Judas when Jesus Himself said ‘he would wish not to have been born’ and that he ‘went to his own place’.
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I don’t think de Chardin is condemned, and I have to confess that I have less than zero interest in the debates over evolution and whether Adam and Eve were actual real people; the Church says they were and I accept what the Church teaches 🙂
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If he has not been condemned his writings have been marginalised and his wilder theories seen as suspect. I also accept the Church’s teachings. It just annoys me when someone like de Chardin, a brilliant scientist (and priest) persuades those in the secular world who read him, as well as progressive Catholics, that humans are in a state of glorious, ever-advancing ‘evolution’ when you only have to look at yourself and those around you (as GK Chesterton observed) to see the opposite. I agree with Scoop that there does seem a kind of ‘cult around him. It reminds me of the Gnostics. Our parish is reading Pope Benedict’s Jesus of Nazareth for Lent and it’s wonderful stuff – clear, scholarly and accessible to ordinary people. Above all, he shows Christ.
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I love those volumes by the Pope Emeritus – so readable and so good. I suspect Teilhard was a product of his time, and I doubt many under the age of 60 read him much – which is a shame in some ways, and not in others.
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A further thought: if all are (possibly) saved, why did Christ spend so much time in the Gospels describing and warning about Hell (especially in relation to the Pharisees)? Also, the fact that Hell is never talked about any more means that funerals, including most Catholic ones, have largely turned into sentimental eulogies of the dead, now seen as happily ensconced in Heaven. Even someone as holy as St Bernadette begged her Sisters to pray for her after her death as she was very frightened at the thought of Purgatory (which again seems to have gone straight out of the window as we move from a beery get-together in this world straight to a beery get-together in the next.)
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I am much tempted by universalism, but you are right, Christ talks about hell, and therefore it exists and people choose to be in it.
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I am tempted too – but I know it is my weedy and sentimental side that is being tempted! Jesus was not a sentimentalist. One of the most wonderful exchanges in the Gospels (among countless others) is: “Jesus, remember me when you come into your Kingdom” with the reply “Tonight you will be with me in Paradise”. That is the story of a sinner coming home…
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Me too, Francis – so moving 🙂
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I agree with you – but I don’t think Scoop’s comment was designed to be divisive. Paradoxically, when the Latin Mass was essentially ‘banned’ in the late 1960’s, those who defended it – with good reason – made sure it was celebrated worthily. Growing up in the 1950s I was present at many Latin Masses – then the only Rite – which were not edifying at all (especially said by Irish priests when we went to Ireland on holiday.) The point, surely, is not which Rite is ‘best’ but how reverently and self-effacingly the Mass is celebrated.
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I agree with your overall view. We are talking of exceptional parishes (and that is why we know about them.) Interestingly, Bishop Bruskewitz’s predecessor was Bishop Glennon Flavin, a wonderful Bishop who insisted on good orthodox teaching/catechesis in schools, seminaries and among the medical profession. Because he didn’t ‘water down’ the Faith he did get numerous young men coming forward to offer themselves for this great vocation. In that kind of diocese you can guide the liturgy in both rites so that they enhance each other; otherwise you will get chaos and division.
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I met Fr Alexander for the first time last week – what a man – very inspiring witness.
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If such an event inspires or recharges the Faith of young Catholics, that can only be a good thing. Youth 2000 is thought by some to be too ‘charismatic’ – but for over 20 years it has been the reason many young Catholics love their faith and have continued to do apostolic work in their later life. The old-style ‘parish’ structure does not cater for youth in many cases – but their are the future of the Church and its lifeblood.
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Youth 2000 is a wonderful experience for the youth who go. They end up quite often in tears of repentence and standing in line to have their confessions heard. After it is over, that may be the last time they will go to Confession until something in their lives brings them back to the Church on their knees; at least this has been my experience with all these things. For when they go back to their parishes there is nothing there to focus them on Christ . . . it is all fun and games and service hours and such. The kids can’t wait until they no longer have to go to Youth Ministry classes . . . in fact, if their parents don’t demand it, they usually don’t go anyway.
Youth ministry in most parishes on a weekly basis is next to worthless in molding faithful Catholics. But then I’m sure there are some sprinkled about that do challenge kids with the Faith and the stuff of Faith.
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I understand that many young people (here in the UK, at least) regularly keep up with Youth 2000 at retreats, regular Eucharistic Adoration, pilgrimages to Walsingham and other shrines, World Youth Day and other events. These help to keep their faith alive and maturing (especially in difficult times like the one we are living through.)
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Here it is usually a one-off event and most pastors see it as too traditional and opt for more ‘kid friendly’ programs, outings and retreats that usually are quite pedestrian.
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That is a shame. I read Michael Voris on the situation in the US. He seems pretty accurate – but also negative. What do you think? (I also follow Fr D Longenecker who is more nuanced.)
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I would say that I am more nuanced as I think that Fr. Benedict Groeschel’s group of friars has created a program that is beneficial and makes numerous breakthroughs with kids who have never truly thought of spiritual things . . . in a Catholic perspective. But then, my wife as DRE was the first who hosted Youth 2000 at our parish for her last two years at the parish. Since then, it has vanished, we have a paid Youth Minister and the kids know absolutely nothing of their faith or have any connection to the Traditional Catholic Faith of their fathers.
Since my wife went to a larger parish, it became evident that they were not open to Youth 2000 and that they too had a ‘professional’ youth minister who did his own thing. And likewise the results are kids who quite often fall away from the Church and don’t return until they have their own families [if we’re lucky] or if they have had some extraordinary spiritual experience that drove then to seek God with a new maturity and vigor. Quite often we see the returning Catholics as young adults returning only to continue the family tradition of raising their children in a Catholic Church and having them Confirmed in the Catholic Faith . . . though they have, practically speaking, no idea of what being Catholic truly entails.
Most have never heard a Catholic Hymn or a Gregorian Chant, know nothing of the Holy Sacrifice of the benefits of suffering when offered to God. They think that we are free to disagree with Church teaching as most of the rest of the people in the pews agrees with them. So Catholic they are not: just catholic in name only.
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I wish we had even pedestrian stuff for our young – in many places there is nothing
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Perhaps . . . or perhaps many of the programs actually confirms them in their ingnorance and makes them think that there is nothing more to know than their own personal fictions. I suppose it depends on the teacher and the material, if any, that is conveyed.
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When I say we have no programmes where I usually live, I mean just that – zero, zilch, nada.
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I know. We have many that in the same situation. But the programs are no guarantee of making any difference at all unless their is serious teaching going on. Kids know empty counterfeits almost instinctively. And they are not drawn to frauds.
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I wish it were true that kids weren’t drawn to frauds – but I know what you mean 😦
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It isn’t the case here that there is anything back in many parishes for the young / that’s often why so many lapse
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Agree entirely – no doubt some thought the Apostles a little charismatic 😊
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what would a catholic festival be without a big fat image.
The Sun symbol….central in the Sun worship of Nimrods religion, sit center stage, also figures prominent in todays version of Nimrods religion. I don’t think you can have a catholic service without someone in a costume holding up the Sun symbol and telling everyone that …”here is your God”. I used to be amazed, but that was awhile ago. The lines are being drawn…..”let he who is filthy be filthy still”.
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Christ is the Light of the world – sin gives light to this world – you have the poetic soul of a lump of wet tripe, Bosco.
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No doubt. Many in here agree with your assessment of me, including myself. Did you enjoy watching the young delight in the sound of the harp and timbrel as they danced and gyrated in from of the Sun God?
People call us modern man. But nothing is different. Pagan rituals and wanton idolatry. We just have better mouse traps. Im sure good brother Nimrod was, eh, looking up….upon this display of devotion to his world wide religion and saying…”what a pleasure to see ones work thrive so well”
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Did you never read what David did in front of the Ark of the Lord? Do you suppose the wedding attended by Our Lord in Cana was a quiet affair with no drink and no dancing? If you had any poetry about you you’d see what a sad sack you are
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If I remember correctly, good brother David danced and jumped around like a madman. he was with the Ark that held the tablets and a walking stick. The Ark was designed by god himself and had gods food the manna from heaven in it. Im sure there was merriment and dance at the wedding Jesus went to. Why do you ask all that kind of stuff? I hope your not trying to equate that with a festival devoted to the Babylonian Sun God. You, and others, have attempted to explain away the pine cone staff of Bacchus the Holy Father holds and the Dagon fish hats your costume holymen wear and the mother child Semeramis Tammuz worship, but this big fat Sun God symbol is going to stick in your craw.
The time is at hand. mans probation is at a close. Choose who ye will serve..
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Oddly enough, all Catholics chose Jesus – most of us whilst you were still on drugs.
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Rather reminds me of Lutefisk, fish totally spoiled by means of preserving it.
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Not only does the Holy father have a pine cone staff of bacchus, there is a well known Satanic symbol on top…..a bent crooked cross with a grotesque jesus on it. Good brother Servus came to the rescure and said it was bent because it had been dropped. If it had been accidently dropped, why is it bent symmetrically? He felt the need to explain away a glaring satanic symbol that his fearless leader holds in his hands for all to see. I particularly enjoy watching the flimsy excuses get even shabbier. My all time fave is….if I remember correctly….don’t quote me on this….I think it was good brother Phillip…..maybe…..who said the big fat Red Dragon sitting up on the wall in the Vatican, wasn’t really a dragon. (;-D it was a furry kitten, or something like that. Jesus nailed to a tee the catholic church in the book of Rev, all the way down to the Red Dragon. But, the cathol devotees will deny deny deny. I would too if I was hoping to get to heaven holding onto a catholic females dress skirt. If I admitted that Catholicism, my religion, was false, im condemning all my family who went befor me.
Hell has enlarged its borders to accommodate the influx of people who thought they were doing god a service.
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If you don’t get tired of all this nonsense, which has been answered many times, I do.
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yeah good brother, im very sure youre tired of seeing the same old things. You and others need to give them some real thought . You have explained them but they didn’t go away. Things are rushing to a head now a days. After the rapture there is no easy salvation.
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Yes, so you keep saying – but so far, neither you nor any of the tin-foil hatters have been right on this.
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Jesus would be one of the nutters. he said two women would be sitting at a mill….one would be taken and the other one left behind.But , you know what?………the NT was written for the saints, not the religious . Good brother Paul prefaces most of his letter with,,,,,to the saints who are at such and such a city. his letters are not photo copied and put into every mailbox in the city…its one just to the saints. Now you saducees get a bible and think you are on top of things, when you have no business opening a bible. Its not written for you. You have your writings of men that you love. You have a female queen of heaven that came down and left some secrets that no one could have. You have a magisterium that tells you what the bible really means….if the price is right.
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Your reading of this verse was unknown until modern times – no doubt everyone else misunderstood it until you came along.
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Gods people always knew what the verse meant. I believe in Isaiah it says that we shall not all die, but we shall be changed. But, its for gods people, not the popes people.
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