The question arises as to what Eliot meant when he wrote about a ‘Christian society’. The first thing to note is that he did not think that the British and American society he inhabited in the 1930s was one. That society was, at best, he thought, neutral. Its values and laws were shaped by a Christian heritage, but these were, he thought, in danger of becoming vestigial; at best Western society was neutral – at least it did not actively persecute anyone for being a Christian. What was true in the 1930s is no longer so; what was vestigial then is fossilised now, and it is very easy to be prosecuted for being an orthodox Christian. At the bare minimum, a Christian society ought to be one which promotes a Christian way of life. It is not a search for an abstraction of a set of principles, it is the recognition and promotion of a way of living which recognises that man’s destiny is eternal, and that the things of this world are, at best, a means to an end, that end being eternal life. This has profound implications for what we think the ends of education are, and for how we define concepts such as ‘success’ and ‘failure’; it is a radical call to humility and to the recognition of the reality of the effects of original sin. At the very least it is a call to be sceptical about the utopian solutions peddled by liberalism, and to be cautious about changing the status quo except with evidence that it runs counter to the Gospel message. So, to take two practical examples: it would argue that slavery was bad because it encouraged the dehumanisation of the individual and ran counter to the message of Jesus; but it would argue that changing the status of marriage was a bad idea for the same reason. Why was man created as he was? The ends to which God intended mankind are actively promoted by the traditional Christian idea of marriage; that it also has a variety of desirable social outcomes is no accident; we do best as a species when we follow the lines laid down for us by God. To be blunt, He knew what what He was doing – and we don’t.
Does such a route require of us self-discipline, self-abnegation and and some discomfort? If so, the chances are we are on the right road; if not, the chances point the other way. Such a State would not be limited to having only Christians as its members, for its values are ones which people of all faiths should be able to see the virtues of; neither would it be a narrowly confessional State. As Eliot put it, a Christian society should be one in which those who govern, whatever their particular religious beliefs and personal preferences, are confined
by the temper and traditions of the people which they rule, to a Christian framework within which to realize their ambitions and advance the prosperity and prestige of their country. They may frequently perform un-Christian acts; they must never attempt to defend their actions on un-Christian principles” (CC, 23)
For this to happen, education would be crucial. If the young are not reared in the maxims and principles of the Gospel message, and if they do not see it preached and practised, then the Christian society cannot come into existence. So, what would such an education look like? To that I shall attempt to return in my next post.
Cardinal Ratzinger seemed to speak on the same theme: https://www.romancatholicman.com/father-joseph-ratzinger-1969-prediction-future-church/
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Nice to think that an Anglican Church Warden said it first.
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“So, what would such an education look like?” Well, ponder this. Are we moving in the right direction? Ah, the wonders of liberalism.
http://www.crisismagazine.com/2017/georgetown-slavery-riots-sweden
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Hamburgers tonight or carrots and peas tomorrow night . . . that is the pressing question.
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Oh yeah, can’t tomorrow night because of Mass, so it’s hamburgers tonight! Glad at least one of us was thinking.
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I’ll be there.
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Hard work this free speech thing, Steve – but by all means demand speech you don’t agree with should be dealt with, but don’t complain when the Left do the same, perhaps?
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I agree, although his statements seem a bit strange coming from a Catholic University. Just doesn’t seem to me to be a good image for the school. But he certainly has a right to make them.
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C, I will remind you of what you posted: “As Eliot put it, a Christian society should be one in which those who govern, whatever their particular religious beliefs and personal preferences, are confined
by the temper and traditions of the people which they rule, to a Christian framework within which to realize their ambitions and advance the prosperity and prestige of their country. They may frequently perform un-Christian acts; they must never attempt to defend their actions on un-Christian principles” (CC, 23)”
But, as the article I referred to stated, because Muhammad did no evil then Muslims can do like him. And do.
So, my question to you is this. How can we advance the prosperity and prestige of the UK & the USA by defending our actions on un-Christian principles? I would posit that it can’t be done. This is precisely why multiculturalism does not work. Which brings me back to a question I asked a few posts ago and will re-ask so if there are thoughts of those not sitting on the fence.
what I can’t understand is this article: http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/02/25/new-bbc-head-religion-gave-islamist-extremists-platform/
Now, using this wiki article showing the breakdown of religion in the UK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_Kingdom, there are 33% of the population that either don’t care or are too scared to identify with any religion. 7% are other (including Muslim) and a whopping 60% Christian. BUT, your BBC has had a Muslim as head of religion and ethics since 2009! In London 48% are Christian with 13% Muslim, and have just elected as mayor a Muslim!
Is this total fear that you will be beheaded if you don’t kowtow to their every want and desire? Or is it that the Christians have had the wool pulled over their heads by the liberals for so long that they truly don’t have a clue? Islamic jihad is a worldwide phenomenon with death totals increasing daily. By the looks of it, Britons seem not to care! Please help, is my conclusion in error?
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Not sure how we got to multiculturalism. As it happens I believe in free speech, you seem not to. Best of luck persuading anyone that it is OK to repress speech you don’t like, but they shouldn’t repress speech of which you approve. As it happens I know the Muslim head of religion at the BBC, and a fairer and more decent fellow you could not find. Unlike most secularists, he knows faith matters.
The Muslim who is mayor of London won this thing called a democratic election, and oddly was not in favour of beheading anyone, nor is he saying that everyone should kow tow to Islam. Where do you get such weird ideas?
Oddly, people care about things such as employment, transport, health and education, and they vote for the guy who might deliver them. I believe you have such a system in the US and I am told that it does not work by people who demonise your new President. They are wrong to do so, you are wrong to do so here. Two wrongs never made a right.
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Do what good brother Malcolm says……seek first the kingdom of heaven and all these things will be added onto you.
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C, thanks for your thoughts. You seem not to care either. I’m for free speech, even a Muslim at a Catholic University. I wish he wasn’t employed there, but Georgetown has become other than Catholic. But you know as well as I do that if a so called “white male christian” advocated sexual and marital slavery, he would be put on the rail and scooted out. What I believe is citizens must assimilate. Both of our countries have a basic English and Christian ethos. Education and morality can’t be taught in 40 languages and religions without losing our way. We must champion and defend our Christianity. We cannot be stopped by the banner of free speech. We cannot have 40 sets of laws.
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I don’t see how this applies here. The example you gave was of a white American convert. Just which part of American values was he not brought up with? How would you propose stopping him converting?
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C, thanks again. I can’t find it now, but one of the websites or blogs I follow, has at the bottom of their comment section this quote; “It is impossible to write in such a way as to never be misunderstood.”
I would hope Jonathon A. C. Brown, because of his intellect, is not part of the 15-25% Muslim population that hates us and wants us to submit to there rule. As Brigitte Gabriel states so well:
we are at war.
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Sounds to me like that’s just what he wants. There’s your puzzle, a free-born white American who converts to Islam!
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OT, but interesting. http://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2017/2/27/14754990/boston-dynamics-handle-robot-debut-video-watch
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“We must champion and defend our Christianity. We cannot be stopped by the banner of free speech.”
Must we?
Perhaps, but we must expect that others who differ from us will also wish to defend their beliefs and culture. That works both ways. It also opens the question as to how we are going to defend Christianity and what sort of Christianity are we to defend.
The Christian Umbrella covers many diverse interpretations. It worries me when individuals start talking about defending Christianity. They are often very aggressive about it and repel genuine seekers. They can be offensive and unloving in the way they go about it.
The only way given by Holy Scripture that we can defend Christianity is in the words of Peter’s first Epistle.(3:15)
“But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and be ready always to give an answer to every man who asketh you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear. ( KJB)
Meekness and fear has to be the order of the day. It is the hope within us that will open the hearts of true seekers. It has to be Jesus all the way in our lives and a continual turning towards him for salvation.
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Ha Ha Ha Ha. I can retire and let good brother Malcolm take over for me. Defend Christianity. Jesus is a big boy. he doesn’t need us to defend Him.
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P S Defending a Christian Culture or Church isn’t the same as defending the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.
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I’m reminded that St. Augustine, in “The City of God” wrote,
“calls citizens out of all nations, and gathers together a society of pilgrims of all languages, not scrupling about diversities in the manners, laws, and institutions whereby earthly peace is secured and maintained.”
Defending our values is, of course, fine. What is not fine, in my view, is attempting to shut down debate, from either side. That does not mean that one is obliged to support it in any way, or even read/listen. I too question why Georgetown would. (Well, not really, I didn’t fall off the turnip truck last night). But that is a different issue. Mostly for those who fund Georgetown, in this case.
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It really is an issue for them – I can’t imagine why a University would want to attract the amount of bad publicity this one is bringing them, but it is, literally, their business 🙂
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Agree. 🙂
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