T.S. Eliot wrote that: “If Christianity goes, the whole of our culture goes. Then you must start painfully again and you cannot put on a new culture readymade. You must wait for the grass to grow …”
The classic liberal secularist response to this is summed up here:
There is, of course, a double dishonesty in all of this. There is the assumption that it is not possible to retain, in a secular society, those values which we have learned as matters of good sense from a Christianity in which they were supported by revelation; it is a standard trope, unsupported by reason of modern conservatism that if we discard part we stand to lose all of our historical culture – and Eliot was too clever a man not to know that this was, and remains, mere assertion.
The burden of proof here rests, it seems to me, on the person making the assertion. Values need to be rooted in something. Christianity values the family and all human life, and if I ask whether this society does so I would query a positive answer, and more than that, I would point to the breakdown of the family in the UK and America and ask how far many of our social ills stem from that? I would also ask how far a society where the public discourse has become as crude as it has, has been coarsened by its attitude to the unborn and the elderly, where it seems that a more utilitarian attitude now prevails – one where sentimentality scarcely conceals a selfish desire that the individual’s own comfort should come first? These are important parts of our historical culture, and the fact that they are attenuating most where Faith has vanished most, may be a coincidence, but it suggests that the optimism of the critic is unfounded. In Eliot’s day this process was not very far advanced; it is now. But Eliot saw clearly that:
“a society has ceased to be Christian when religious practices have been abandoned [and when] when behaviour ceases to be regulated by reference to Christian principle, and when in effect prosperity in this world for the individual or for the group has become the sole conscious aim” (Christianity & Culture, 9–10).
The critic’s other caveat of Eliot’s position is one I think we should take more seriously:
The other dishonesty is that Eliot’s Christianity, like that of many rightwing intellectuals, is an underpinning of the status quo rather than a force for social justice or the ecstatic joy of Easter Day for believers.
If by ‘social justice’ is meant a bias to the poor and a concern for them, then it is, alas, true that too many conservative Christians react to this as though someone were suggesting that Jesus was a communist. His concern for the poor and the marginalised is not one which conservative Christians tend to stress. As for the joy of the Resurrection, again, the critic has a point. To what extent does the experience of the Resurrection inform our attitude to others and to the world? Do we express that optimism that in the end all will be well, and all manner of things will be well, or do we retreat into an entrenched conservatism which rejects the world because it cannot cope with it and prefers to see it as the enemy rather than as a target for conversion?
How, though, does, or should, our Christianity inform our cultural encounters? How do we hold on to the best that Christianity has given our culture without also insisting that there is only one way – a conservative way – of portraying this? It is to some of those questions that I hope to return during the Lenten period.
It is “. . . true that too many conservative Christians [orthodox?] react to this as though someone were suggesting that Jesus was a communist.”
I enjoyed your post though I think that, like the press today, there is the usual left-leaning spin attached as they have coopted the language and the meaning of words.
The orthodox Christian is rightly suspicious of the words and the intent of the ‘pressure groups’ that are operative in our society and in our churches. And why should we not be concerned with our leadership supporting groups such as PICO and the UN whose goal is far from a Christian one? We know that the ‘social justice’ warriors of our time are not interested in Christ or the Church at all. Theirs is but an attempt to de-fang the Faith for it stands as a barrier to their ultimate ends: an end where their own tyranny begins and our freedom of religion ends.
How many times do we have to sit by and watch the ‘Good News’ played out by placing these social justice types in control of government agencies, cities or states and get the same result over and over again? Chicago or Detroit stand as beacons of liberal control and the result is that although more money is spent people are more likely to fall into poverty and go uneducated. So what is their intent? Did they have good intentions really? Or is this the result that they want? They have created a revolutionary group at the grassroots level to do their bidding. They have created enemies to unite them in their ‘struggle’. Ususally rich, white, Christians.
The orthodox is still the group of individuals who give the most to the poor and it is the heterodox or secular social justice warriors that rise up the ranks to founding another social justice group that takes money from churches, fund drives, rich folk like Soros or even get grants from the till of the government to instill their brand of socialism and their aim of uniting people against some phantom enemy of their choosing.
The orthodox celebrate their Easter joy most profoundly by falling to their knees in prayer and thanksgiving whilst we see that the unorthodox celebrate with baloons and banners and marches for social concerns. Christianity, far from being an underpinning for society is being coopted to be the unwitting foot soldiers for social change and disruption; pawns in sociological experimentation and political ends. We have become a political pawn not a driving force.
And yes, they are our enemy; their father is the father of lies. They co-opt the language, they confuse the thought, they pit one faction against another and they turn around and say that it is the [conservative] or traditional Christian who is uncaring, unloving and unconcerned with social justice. And I know that I will not be able to convert a Barrack Obama or Hillary Clinton or George Soros. It will take a movement of God . . . a great miracle to do such. These people hate Christ and the Christian unless they can define what Christ is and what being Christian is: mostly socialists and worried about the here and now rather than the salvation of souls.
So good luck in trying to convert a world that has vowed to cut off the head [Christ] from the Church and transform the religion into a social workers and marchers for whatever particular polical cause they have taken up on a given day. Its getting harder and harder to ignore these folks now that they have interpenetrated into our worship spaces as well as the secular media that is piped into our homes everyday.
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Going to be an interesting Lent, I suspect. The American-born Sir Larry Siedentop, CBE, who was a lecturer at Keble College, Oxford, recently wrote in February’s Prospect magazine
“This is a strange and disturbing moment in the history of the West. Europeans, out of touch with the roots of their tradition, often seem to lack conviction, while Americans may be succumbing to a dangerously simplistic version of their faith. If we in the West do not understand the moral depth of our own tradition, we cannot hope to shape the conversation of mankind.”
I think he makes an important point, so often we do not seem to understand why our faith says what it says, and that likely makes it hard for us to understand what is happening to it today.
Just starting to deal with this, so likely more to come.
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Christians are called to conversion; first we ourselves must be converted to a deeper understanding of our Faith and only after that should we try to bring the Good News to others. The older I get the more I recall Christ’s words about not hiding one’s light under a bushel. One’s instinct is to do this – but to be a true Christian is to evangelise in some form or another: a neighbour, a friend, a relative, the postman…Not by thrusting ‘religion’ down their throats but by inviting them to know by what divine standard we try to live. ‘You might be the only Gospel another person reads today’ as our late parish priest used to say. We also have to be prudent, living as we do in a post-Christian environment (in the UK at least). Ron Dreher in the US is suggesting the ‘Benedict option’ i.e. Christians grouping together in communities to support one another in a hostile world; not running away but realising that we are essentially back in the catacombs…
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Seems sensible to me – Where I am placed the challenge is how we witness to our faith corporately.
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I’m not sure that the faith was ever meant to be ‘corporate’ if by that you mean that as a Church we are to form political allegiances with programs, groups, and movements that have no bearing on our personal and Christian mandate to ‘follow me’ or to go throughout the world baptising and preaching the Good News to all the nations. All the rest of these novel ‘Jesuitical’ or ‘Liberation Theology’ activities are a departure from Christ and move toward political intrusion. It is a change in purposer from the sacred to the profane.
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A hard question. Seems to me the way we do that corporately is that the members of the organization do so individually, and are seen to do so. Lead (as you do) by example, perhaps.
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Scoop and NEO, You both make interesting comments on what is a very relevant blog. As Christians we face an enormous task if the faith is to become relevant.
I’m very hesitant of accusing those who go on marches and waving banners, are our enemy under the control of the Arch Enemy Satan.
In the past I did a bit of marching under the banner of CND. Canon Collins and Fr Bruce Kent were two Christian leaders who encouraged many in my generation to march for peace. Fr Thomas Merton was another priest who worked for peace. I certainly didn’t consider that those of us who marched under the banner of CND in those days were being controlled by demonic powers. In fact quite the reverse. We were on the side of the Holy Angels.
I marched because I was a disciple of Jesus Christ and wanted to make a difference.
Yes, there were communists,Atheists, Buddhists, Quakers, Anglicans, Catholics and Christians of all shades on those marches. We also had a lot of fun and enjoyed ourselves.
Again and again I go back to the Bible and especially to St Matthew’s Gospel. For St Matthew Jesus has changed the world requiring that our lives be changed.if we are to live as people of the New Creation. Being a member of God’s creation means being involved with others who may NOT be members of the New Creation.
Matthew’s assumption was that his task was to be nothing less than to witness to God’s desire to save all creation through the life of Jesus Christ. Matthew writes to to make us active disciples of the man Jesus, Son of the Living God.
To be a Christian doesn’t mean that we should not join others in marches and demonstrations for good causes. Rather we must live as witnesses to “the world” that God has changed. We should not be surprised therefore, if the way we live makes the change visible. We might have to go on a few marches if only to witness that as disciples of Jesus we are also concerned with justice and related matters.
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Funny how the paths to the Cross twist and turn sometimes. About the time you were marching with CND, I was taking AFROTC in college. Why? because I wanted to fly bombers, to defend my civilization.
Yet we both end up here, taking rather similar positions almost always. I love Francis’ quote from her priest, ‘You might be the only Gospel another person reads today’. How true that is, for all of us.
I’m not entirely sure the Faith should be relevant to the world, it is not of the world, neither are we, although we are in it, but maybe we are here primarily to save souls, in our various imperfect ways.
I guess my point is the old one I’ve been making here for 5 years, the foot of the Cross is a junction of many roads and we forget that at our peril.
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NEO, as we grow older, and I hope mature, many of the ideals we held as students take on a different perspective. CND belongs to my past but it’s a joy to recall as it evokes past friendships and associations.
Yes, the foot of the Cross is a junction of many roads. I love your metaphor – a junction of many roads. That’s a very profound observation. Thank you.
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As the Air Force is in many ways in mine, and like you it brings back friendships and associations. Not to mention that it enabled me to meet some people that in the normal course of events I never would have, and that I admired (and still do) immensely. Sadly almost all of them are gone now, and we are the poorer for it.
I picked that up somewhere long ago, probably in the encampment on Mt. Nebo.
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Malcolm, not all marches are bad obviously . . . a pro-life march, obviously, is quite admirable and has a Christian foundation to it. It is also based on educating an individual’s conscience and thus forming them by Christian principles.
Now the Church has in its history both waged war and warned against war determined by Christian principles as well. But in a world where the con game is to make every marcher and dissenter think that their march is somehow theirs is a mark of how these agency such as the CND operates. To pretend that atomic energy is going to be abandoned by humanity is not even realistic to anyone on the planet. CND opposed all forms including the cleanest and cheapest form of power that the world now has at its disposal. They were opposed to US bases in Europe to help protect them from the real threat of Soviet attack and aggression. They also opposed their involvement in NATO which would have left them in a totally defenseless position in regards to protecting themselves. They were also joined to the hip with many other demands and smaller groups that simply protested (sometimes not so peacefully) as a peace group without any understanding that the best defense is a strong offensive ability that makes it virtually impossible for any odious power to even think of attacking weaker countries.
From Wikipedia: “From the late 1960s until the mid-1970s, MI5 designated CND as subversive by virtue of its being ‘communist controlled’. Communists have played an active role in the organisation, and John Cox, its chairman from 1971 to 1977, was a member of the Communist Party of Great Britain.[53] From the late 1970s, MI5 downgraded CND to ‘communist-penetrated'”. I am curious where these people are getting their money and who they have partnered with over these many years. It might be an eye-opener to many who, like you, participated in such marches in the past.
Jesus was no ‘Barabbas’ and not a radical seeking to overthrow a government or to alter its policies and neither should we be. We live in countries now where we can by our votes influence our political states but our primary duty is as Francis outlined above, to learn to follow Jesus and fix ourselves first and then give witness by our lives; winning souls one by one as best we can. It is the immitation of Christ that is our primary focus not dominating or cajoling states to listen to us as the experts in defense of our countries. I think they know more than we do about what is really going on in the world.
Also, I would say that it is in the interest of the enemies of peace in this world to disarm because as they arm themselves in the future, such as North Korea or Iran, they have made us weaker whilst they grow stronger.
It is obvious that non-proliferation has partially worked but is not perfect . . . I doubt that CND could have helped this in any way. But the truth is obvious; there has not been a nuclear attack since the end of the Second World War. So it seems to me that those who have had nuclear weapons in the past have been rather cautious about using them; in other words, they are sane people who know the outcome for the world would be devastating.
Let us keep our eyes on the prize Malcolm; the pearl of great price. The rest of it will take care of itself in God’s good time.
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Scoop, lighten up brother.
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I might say the same to those who get excited about every issue under the sun and spend their hard earned money for things they are not fully aware of and carry signs and protest something that they are also in the dark about.
i will go so far as to say that as Lent starts folks are going to be collecting for Operation Rice Bowl once again. When the head of the group makes close to 1/2 a million dollars a year and gets most of their money from the US government and is given to UN agencies that push everything from contraception and abortion. We have a responisibility to look into these things [like Catholic Campaign for Human Development] before we pat ourselves on our back for helping the poor and doing the right Catholic thing. I give my charity to groups I personally know and know what they use the money for.
I also marched [actually I got caught up in it quite by accident whilst walking through NY] that ended at the UN. We were protesting the Vietnam War and though I was no fan of that war it was organized and sponsored by Communists as would be expected. Their method was to create pressure from the people to withdraw support from our fighting men. I wish I could get that march off of my resume.
The treatment of these Vets was very telling about the groups that fomented these marches; as they spit on our young men as the returned all shot up and missing limbs. They claimed they did it for the love of these kids but when they came home they were villified and despised. The truth always shows its face in the end.
Truly, I don’t feel like I am being too hard on these folks . . . and feel no weight from this fight. I fear those who support these things are carrying burdens around that they need not. If you live in one of the Western democracies we alter things by our votes over time.
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I’d rather, and do, donate to CNEWA than Rice Bowl, especially after the abortion scandal.
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Only, because it was your comment Malcolm to which I was responding. My answer would have been the same for anyone. We all ‘preach’ what truths we have come to know by our own experiences don’t we? If I am wrong then I am willing to listen and think about their facts and their understanding of these issues. And you can, if it is your way, discard my responses as jibberish, foolish preaching or even ignore me. You can’t say that I am indifferent or unwilling to share my views on things though. 🙂
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It is hard to think that Our Lord would approve of the idea of his creation annihilating itself, so, although myself an opponent of CND, I have always been able to appreciate whence it’s Christian members were coming. That Communists supported the same end for different reasons is about as relevant as pointing out that Franco ran a nasty dictatorship but supported the Catholic Church; if the faithful associated only with the pure in heart, they would usually find themselves alone and unable to achieve much in this world.
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Any means to an end, eh, C?
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Not unless you were thinking of the Vatican’s support for Franco or the support of the USA for Pinochet? A coincidence of aim on one point does not mean anything more than that.
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Neither affect me as an individual. I try, at least, to keep my motivations and my goals within the confines of the faith. Sometimes we disagree with our leaders when they are delving into politics around the world. Like today for instance. 🙂
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But as Catholics we have a duty to be equal opportunities protestors.
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. . . or like Christ I can refuse to take the path of the revolutionary leader Barabbas. 🙂
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It is not recorded that he took the side of religious traditionalists 😊
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Because He was the religion and tradition starts with Him and those things He kept from the OT Church.
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Which avoids my point – he said nothing about the type of liturgy – so those who spend so long emphasising this area cannot claim his example in aid.
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It avoids nothing. Tradition began with Christ and what He handed down from the OT Church and their laws and traditions. It did not end there but organically grew under the loving care of the Apostles, the Popes and the bishops until our day.
What is your point in regards to whether the Church should be an overt player in politics rather than a personal foundation of individual souls who are committed to Christian living; to Christ and the Christian way of life and the forming of Christian consciences?
As a soverign state the Church can deliver its message to the world and can take sides with other sovereign nations or not. But it is not been the purview of the Church to be organized or cooperate with Alinskyite community organizers in order to foment dissent and disruption and sow division and hatred among people in legitimate soveriegn nations with support from its citizens.
JPII worked with the solidarity movement in Poland as a voice of support for a legitimate, popular cause of freedom from enslavement from an outside power, which the Church can and does do and which all sovereign nations do at times. The Church resisted the killing of Jews and saved many from the gas chambers by confronting that which is objective evil. That is pure Christianity at work and an instance where the Church delivers a worldwide message against slavery and genocide; Christian core principles.
I do not find that at all comparable to liberation theology or working with ‘evil agents’ in order to procure a good; pitting whites against people of color, poor against those who are not, calling for criminal resistance to legitimate laws by a sovereign nation for the safety of its citizens etc.
How you got from the revolutionary (liberation theology) of a Barabbas to the beautiful liturgies of traditional splendor for the greater gloty of God is beyond me.
I think it is you who avoided the point. Can you partner with evil to effect a good or is this prohibited by our Faith?
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On the first issue, there is nothing in Christ’s teaching to fetishise any one liturgy. As you say, it has developed under the pastoral leadership of the Church. Where do you put the implementation of V2 in this story?
I have no idea how you know what Barabbas wanted and how you can be sure he was not the Jewish equivalent of Lech Walensa?
The nineteenth and twentieth century Church at times set its face very firmly against liberal democracy, I take it you’d agree with me that this was a grave error. I would, of course, agree that we should not compensate for that by starting to support left wing causes.
But, where there is a coincidence of aim – for example getting rid of the barbarity of the death penalty, why not cooperate? It gives us the chance to point out life begins at conception and to remind such groups what it really would mean to be pro-life.
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“Where do you put the implementation of V2 in this story?” As a non-doctrinal pastoral council that one may agree or disagree with.
Whatever Barabbas was, Christ was not on-board. Also, Christianity was not as yet a sovereign state. You need not create political or economic or racial divisions among people because following Christ creates its own divisions; brother against brother, father against son etc. It comes with the territory.
As to the last, I do not know of a liberal group whose only purpose is to end the death penalty; which could conceivably be reconciled with Christianity if the state were not able to keep the person isolated from inocent victims which they might murder in the future. But if there were, for argument’s sake, a group whose aim was to overload the prison systems and bankrupt the state, make it insolvent and destabilize the government, would you join forces with them? How about if the the means of their pressure for this perceived good were to foment riots around the country, attack cops, beat civilians who opposed you and shut down commerce? You don’t answer with the Church’s answer from Her own catechism. It is never OK to use an evil means to procure a perceived good. It really is quite simple.
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Scoop you’re preaching at me.
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The problem is, Malcolm, that the people who most talk about ‘Justice and Peace’ often turn out to be fairly hostile to us Christians. I note that e.g. Brendan Cox, husband of the late murdered MP Jo Cox, talks about ‘justice and peace’ – but I am pretty sure his definitions would be different from my own. If I were to say “First I want justice and peace for the unborn child in the womb”, I suspect many would walk away.
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frrancis,
It takes all sorts to make a world and I’m sure that Brendan Cox has his reasons. That people want to talk about Justice and peace is good.
His wife was murdered and that must be uppermost in his mind. Fine you want justice and peace for the unborn child which is laudable and praise worthy, but my post wasn’t directed to any particular cause.
Okay, so some of those who talk about justice and peace are hostile to Christians. Maybe its good that we experience hostility. It means we’re doing the Lord’s will.
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Francis – you’re preaching at me sister. Like your RC Colleague. Scoop
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Its kinda interesting and at the same time sad to watch the unsaved muse about what it is to be Christian.
All the while Jesus is knocking at your door. Ask him to come in and reveal himself. How can one talk about Him if one doesn’t know Him.? yes, one can jabber on and on and philosophize about Christianity, then slip and fall on a banana peel and die and wake up in hell. What was it all worth.
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What is sad is that you seem to see being a Christian as a purely selfish option.
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Reminded me of part of a quote this morning over at TCW on a somewhat similar thread, that I think applies to our Bosco, as well,
“One day he will have the opportunity to tell God how he got things wrong when he created the Universe. No prizes for guessing which one will end up with egg on his face.”
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If I was selfish I wouldn’t be reminding everyone that Jesus is waiting to get to know you, and to ask him in.
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But your Christianity seems not to inspire you to do anything else
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So, don’t keep me in suspense. What else would you like me to do? Im not good at anything else.
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What else does the Spirit lead you to do by way of witness?
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All I have is my testimony. How I met the Lord is all I have to give. I don’t sell graven images to bow down befor and I don’t try to translate what a man in a costume says. I just tell my story. What is your story? Yes, we all know it. You went religion shopping and picked up Catholicism in the marked down isle. Ive lived along time and know a lot of things. But I still cant fathom how someone who wasn’t born into Catholicism can go from a simple faith in jesus to a reliance on a female deity and images of stone and wood.
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In any case, the Cross should be at the centre of what we should do. The world wants to talk about suffering? God Himself suffered to save us – we must show them Jesus the High Priest of the Epistle to the Hebrews: “for we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses…” One thing I will not compromise: Jesus is Yahweh.
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Scoop and Francis
I’m not a Roman Catholic, Please remember that.
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Indeed so, Malcolm. And please remember that Francis and I are RC’s and that we are tailoring our comments to the overall post as well . . . also written by an RC.
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I think we need, sometimes, to ponder what Our Lord meant when he said those who are not against us are with us.
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I only remember Him leaving them be and not forming alliances with them. That at least makes sense to me and how I have always viewed that tidbit from Scripture. Today Christ is seen as a political player . . . but for the life of me He did not seem to reflect the present day Jesuits in the least. 🙂
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No more than he emphasised the importance of the right liturgy and vestments 😊
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That is merely a duty to the love we have for Christ . . . thus its importance for our spiritual growth and expression of thanksgiving and love.
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Have no fear we are constantly working to make it better and better. From a Mass at the Religious Education Conference:
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Not quite sure here – are you suggesting we have not polluted the planet and acted as though we were its owners and not its stewards? The style is not mine, but I’m not sure whether you’re throwing the message out with the messenger?
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Well lets see now, keeping in mind Genesis 1:26.
We can’t use fossil fuel [coal, gas, oil, wood] and thus we cannot heat our homes unless we move to a place with geo-thermal energy or a nice tropical area where it is not needed. Of course electricity has to go [there goes air conditioning andlighting] as it is impossible to pay for solar in our day and impossible for most of the world to have transportation. I suppose we could go back to sailing ships for the seas though. We cannot clear the land for people to live and build houses or businesses because some poor animal might be inconvenienced and have to look for a new home. De-salinization or purification of water in any appreciable quantity is impossible due to the high energy required to purify it. Underground water is out as it takes too long for the ground water to be replaced.
I guess we should all just sit on our duffs and wait to die and hope for rain . . . whilst we all live crowded together in the tropics. Hope we get rain or the crops will fail and we will all die.
Yes we made mistakes and found them costly as we learned more about what had lasting effect and what did not. That is the purpose of technology which now can produce lower emissions from burning fuels to cleaning and purifiying water. We generally develop what is needful as the problems emerge that need solving.
Do you think we need to say prayers to God for what our large corporation have done to grow their economies and provide jobs for people such that they might have a home, water, indoor plumbing, heat and air-conditioning.
I like to think that my personal sins are more important that my ecological sins [whatever that means to the greenies of our age]. I doubt I would be joining in the prayers at this Mass . . . might leave and look for a real Mass somewhere else.
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You go to the extreme. I asked whether we had acted like stewards or owners, and you duck the question. You quote extremists. No one serious is suggesting we just sit on our duffs and die. We use our God-given intelligence to clean things up – or perhaps you think people dying from breathing the air in Beijing is just one of the prices we pay for getting richer?
If we destroy God’s planet by treating it as something we can plunder at will with no thought for our children and children’s children, then I doubt that would count as a mere venial sin.
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I guess you didn’t hear what the priest was praying then. Those were all part of it.
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I did not hear him say what you say here:
‘We can’t use fossil fuel [coal, gas, oil, wood] and thus we cannot heat our homes unless we move to a place with geo-thermal energy or a nice tropical area where it is not needed. Of course electricity has to go [there goes air conditioning and lighting] as it is impossible to pay for solar in our day and impossible for most of the world to have transportation.’ Not one of his prayers said that. If you think he did then I fear you must listen to it again. This is your extrapolation of what he must be saying because that’s what you are wanting to hear, I fear.
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If you accept that using fossil fuel is a sin that needs to be prayed for then the rest certainly is implied. For any use is sinful since it is being complicit with the sins of those who produce the energy that we use is it not?
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Over use when we know the consequences seems sinful –
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Really? Do you assess your use of fossil fuels and ask forgiveness for having too large of a carbon footprint? Drive too much, fly in airplanes too much, keep your house too warm or cool, eat too much meat, use too much electricity?
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I try to ensure my usage is low – don’t you?
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No. I live my life as I always did giving such nonsense not a moment of my time. If I want to drive around in my car and I can afford to fill the tank then I’ll do it. I certainly do not spend time in self-examen on such things to carry to a priest in the Confessional.
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That’s an interesting approach to stewardship. How does it differ from “I’m all right Jack” or “Devil take the hindermost, as long as I am OK, who cares about anyone else?” Do you not think it a little on the selfish side?
You and I agree that rampant materialism is one of the problems that besets our society – this is manifest in many ways, but isn’t a reckless use of scarce resources one of them?
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No. In tribal groups it would be selfish not share your kill with your neighbors. I need only buy what my needs are from the supermarket. Sounds like you should give up all things of this world and live naked in the jungles of Brazil. Where does such thinking end. I am not one to rant on about materialism unless one is obsessed with accumalating useless things . . . and then only because it diverts their eyes from a living God. But it is our materialism that provides jobs and oppurtunities to climb out of ignorance and raise a family.
So you have a pang of conscience for every resource you use? What an added and useless burden you add to yourself. I think you should throw away your cell phone and computer . . . especially if you look at the elements involved within these devices. Do you ask forgiveness everytime you use them?
Don’t you think that foresters and ranchers understand that they have to produce more in the coming years and thereby replenish those they can and recycle those they can’t? It is a simple act of self-preservation. I actually have faith that God gave us the resources to last until His return and gave us dominion of the earth. I think he gave us an ability that when needs exceed our ability to keep producing that a new technology will step up and replace the old.
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I’m failing to understand why you need to go to extremes which you then caricature as though they were not that? The priest in the video did not advocate giving up electricity or sitting on your duff, and I did not advocate living in the jungle. If this is where thinking about such thing ends for you, perhaps getting off the bus earlier would be an idea?
What I advoicated was sensible stewardship of the planet’s resources, and due regard to those of our fellow human beings whose lives will be even more badly impacted by recklessness than our own. Materialism of the sort you advocated – you’ll drive and fly as much as you can afford helps no one – except the gas companies and the global capitalists, who you may well think the best recipients of your money, but who don’t really need yet another mansion.
Yes, I do look at how I use resources. Why should that mean throwing away my modern devices? Again, you go to an extreme no one, but yourself thinks is reasonable, and then only to ridicule something no one except extremists suggests.
I think left to themselves the evidence is clear that logging compaies and mining compaies will take what they can the cheapest way they can – that they no longer do so is not because they got a conscience, it is because they got legislation to stop them from doing so.
Yes, God gave us the brains to work out that if we are going to survive on this planet, we need to work out better ways of using its resources than doing what we used to do and what the Chinese now do. I don’t want to see the air I breathe, and before Governments here introduced clean air acts, I used to be able to do just that – as I could if I went to Beijing now. Wise stewardship is what we are called on to do in all aspects of our lives, and asceticism should not be confined merely to some private sphere.
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And you keep thinking that sin is not like pregnancy; you can’t just be a little bit pregnant. You are either sinning or you are not. If it is a specified quantity of goods then specify the quantity and give me a source for where good stewardship turns to sin. It is a hypothetical number without any qualified authority to render an answer.
And what allows countries like China to clean up their act and purchase the technology to do these things? The money that get while crossing the threshold from agrarian nation to a technologically advanced nation. It is materialism as you call it . . . or profiteering as people like to say, that provides the money to develop the next stage of progress that outstrips and corrects the problems associated with past technologies. The technology doesn’t come without cost. If it weren’t for these stages of development we would all be living at the edge of the Nile or some other river and trading by way of barges.
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Let’s examine this without going to extremes. Is it a sin to use fossil fuels? Is it a sin to eat? No and no. But if you over eat or drink too much alcohol, is that sinful? If yes, then it is the excess where sin lies, not in the thing itself. So, no sin to drive your car. Why would anyone need to set you a quota or a specified amount to convince you to act as a wise steward? It is precisely because individuals refuse to curb their behaviour that Government have had to get involved.
Left to itself, China won’t clean up its act. Money is fine, used properly, ditto fossil fuels.
You keep going to extreme places to have arguments with extremists, when I simply go along with the statements of the Church in Laudato Si. One of us is in line with the thinking of the Church on this – it is not I think yourself.
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You mean Pope Francis and the Art of the Kiss guy that the theology was lifted from and their encyclical. Fine.
Gluttony or an ungoverned appetite is a sin because it makes of something good that which blinds us to God . . . we make a god of a natural good. So it isn’t a specific quantity it is a specific point in one’s soul where the natural object becomes the object of our appetites. Each person may have a different tolerance just like with being rich and having money. How much is too much? When we make of it a god.
So as long as there is produce which is affordable there is no sin per se of buying or using any of these things. But when we start making the Earth into a goddess [Gaia] and beg forgiveness for mining ores and such this is going a bit far.
China isn’t coerced by us at all. What is driving their movement to clean the air is sickness and work stoppage because the air is so foul. Same thing happened in London with coal burning in the city and sewage running through the streets. Knowledge and a motivation backed by money and technology moves us to the next landmark that becomes our new norm. Declaring our very act of living and breathing air to be sinful is not going to change the behavior at all: here is where morality is not the main motivator . . . it is our own health and the health and well being of our families.
If it was morality that drove a solution then we probably never would have one and we would simply stay as we are or revert to primitivism. We could make sure that we do not trade with any country that pollutes but then how do the people of those countries survive without jobs or money to buy food, clothing and housing? How do you balance the morality of both moral ideals?
You, of course, being a good steward and all have nothing that is produced by a technology that pollutes or exploits workers and the like. I know that this is impossible to do in these times and that if I want electricity then we either put up with fossil fueled fired utility plants or we switch over to atomic energy. Some find both immoral. Until they can create solar panels cheap and efficient enough or wind power it is only a technology in progress . . . not ready for prime time. Someday it might but not now. In the meanwhile I’ll live in the technological space of my day with the knowledge that what they are working on in the labs will make what we do today look ancient in the future.
I’m not going to give up refrigeration and air conditioning, like the Pope thinks we should, that has saved millions upon millions of lives lost to food spoilage and the death of the elderly and the young and opened up vast areas of land that was hitherto uninhabitable due to heat or desert like conditions. It is a part of being fruitful and multiplying and inhabiting the whole world. Most of it is still uninhabitable but we will find ways in the future to do so.
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But again, who other than you and some extremists has said our breathing is a sin? Who has said people should not make money? It is about how we make and use money that the debate centres.
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And if the only work available for some people is to work in a coal mine, then what?
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Then human ingenuity finds better methods. Having lived near a coal-mining community when I was younger, I can’t name a single miner who wanted that for his son – why would anyone? Would you want to work in one? Only necessity would make you, and we are ingenious enough to find other technologies and other, safer and cleaner places for people to work. If you’ve ever seen someone die of pneumoconiosis, you’d be in favour of finding something better.
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Yes, black lung was a common problem that my Grandad treated in the WV and KY coal country. But it was either that, working for a small merchant or living off the land which a number of folk did. Coal Mine Unions developed and protective gear and respirators reduced that problem greatly as well as the danger of explosions and caveins which better forms of lighting (loss of the old carbonite lanterns) and better boring macines, ventilation and trams were developed. Coal mining is no where near as dangerous as it was when I was boy and today it pays quite well.
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Agreed, in the bad old days choices were fewer – now human ingenuity has given that choice to us, let us embrace it. You won’t find many children who would gladly embrace that career now – however ‘safe’ it is.
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I know and it has ruined a many proud family of people in those hills that literally chased the first social workers from Washington away with their rifles who were there to give them welfare checks. They were proud and wished to earn their own way in this life. But in time they broke down their defenses and it has ruined a responsible group of people into drunks, drug addicts and the gov’t charity has made them dependents of the state and they now rely on their ‘entitlements’.
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I wonder if that is how people facing a choice between no money and no job and welfare see it?
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I think that kind of self-dignity are a disappearing group overall. Some perhaps still feel this way but in the day it was a common ethos that held them together and family . They shared their hunting kills and everything else though they had little. The churches and individuals helped as best they could. My grandfather did surgeries and doctoring without so much as expecting a dime. Most were too proud to let that stand so they would give him something; like vegetables from their garden, honey, eggs from their chickens or a slab of meat from a pig or even a bear.
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Good, and that I like – but did they live in large cities or small communities? The two make different demands on people.
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Well they lived in small communities or on the fringe of a small community far up in the hills and mountains. They wanted nothing to do with cities and city folk which they did not trust. My grandfather had to doctor them until he died though he retird 15 or 20 years before his death. That was because they refused to go to the nearest city which finally goat a hospital. Grandpaw tried to convince them to go but they refused. So he did what he could.
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That’s fine for them – but hardly an example many can now follow.
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If you keep your eyes and ears open you’d be surprised at how many people who need help are too proud to ask for it. They demand nothing and would rather starve than ask for help. Those are the ones my wife has keyed in on since she is connected to alot of people in her parish and it gives us the chance to give something directly and often to do this anonymously.
I hope you went and got your ‘virtue signaling’ mark on your forehead today. 🙂
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Indeed, but then they wouldn’t ask you privately either, so I am not sure how this is relevant?
The Gospel reading for today had Jesus saying things about not parading one’s virtue, but perhaps you disapprove of that?
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They don’t ask but that doesn’t mean that thy do not open up and reveal their sorrows and problems to their friends. That is how community works. People offer prayers and have prayer lines and we become aware of those in need. Maybe you Brits don’t open up to their friends? Our system wasn’t broken . . . it was seized and made us unnecessary.
Have you lost your sense of humor C? I thought virtue signalling was one of the lefts new attacks on their critics which you seem quite fond of. Just having a bit of fun with you. As Malcolm says, you need to lighten up. 🙂
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Of course, but you seem to be assuming that it is either or, when, as you are showing, it can be both. You say it wasn’t broken in the US – the histories of the 1930s I have read tell a different story – millions unemployed, millions moving westwards.
I was joking about virtue signalling – so I suspect you may indeed need to take your own advice 🙂
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That was because the parishioners were all in the same boat and the dust bowl drove people from family farming to being migrants. The government rightly had a ‘temporary’ and that is the key phrase, system of soup kitchens which they operated. Once the economy recovered it wasn’t until the Kennedy and finally Johnson that the government made welfare a permanent fixture. And even with this, the number of private/non-profits [who make incredible salaries] popped up all over the place and today I can’t open my mailbox or answer my phone for all the solicitations to give money to them. They are legion and they are not always what they claim to be. Maybe you have a similar problem with your private charities?
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Again, the USA is not the world, and not everyone had the sort of boom you had – and you did not have to deal with the legacy of area bombing or Nazi occupation, so without the State things would have gone very badly for very large numbers of people.
Yes, private charities are as you describe them. I only give to Catholic ones, and then not to ones that claim to be Catholic but support abortion and contraception.
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Me too. I have learned to be quite skeptical and do a lot of research before giving. I have about 20 or so that I cycle through over the months plus the occasional missionaries that we support.
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Sorry, as to tree farmers I can answer better than the other. It was already established in my area of the country at the time of the Revolutionary War. My town of Camden supplied the wood that built Charleston. They clear cut areas and then skipped to a another area leaving trees all around the clear cutting. In this way that land would reproduce and could be cut again in another 30 to 50 years depending on the size of the trees needed. After 250 years of this we have more wood that we can deal with to this day. If you take a small airplane ride you would think nobody lived here except in small dots where the land has been cleared for towns or roads. We have Southern pine trees up the ying-yang. Want to buy some? I’ll set you up. I tried to sell the EU on using them for pallets . . . but they have a thing about knots in wood. But Southern pine knots don’t split like in other species; they are very strong. Most of the floors of the early industrial revolution were made of yellow pine [same thing] in Boston and NY. They are still prized when they tear down those old buildings. It can be reused for centuries if they have a mind to.
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And if only that approach had been used in the Amazon basin and other parts of the world, but it wasn’t. You describe wise stewardship, and if all stewardship were wise we wouldn’t need to take more care than we have been.
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Who tells us what is wise: the Pope? Or is it science that says that this vein of ore has been tapped out and it is time to go somewhere else or that if I catch all the fish today there won’t be any tomorrow? Farmers, miners, ranchers, oil producers know better than anyone what their future looks like and they are planning to be leaders in whatever methods or technologies emerge that take us to the next level. The consumer does not bear the burden of overreach in stewardship. the burden is on the manufacturers to take us into the future. Some poor schlep who just wants to go to Mass and pray to God need not get a lecture or have the pastor praying to God to forgive him for his consumerism and his carbon footprint. Those problems whether people are shreiking about them or not are going to be solved because they will become a big enough problem that they must be solved.
The air in this country has been cleaned remarkably [and the water too] just during my lifetime. We have pockets of problems where greed and avarice has played its role but on the whole we have laws, standards and inspectors that deal with all of this and it is continuing to get better. It isn’t the folk sitting in my Church who need to ask forgiveness because they buy and use stuff on the market. If it proves harmful enough it will be curtailed in time by the government or the industry itself.
Gluttony is a sin indeed. That is all the folk in the pew need to hear . . . not all this silly brother bird and sister tree nonsense.
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But who will take the decision that the problems are big enough? And if you are right that:
‘Farmers, miners, ranchers, oil producers know better than anyone what their future looks like and they are planning to be leaders in whatever methods or technologies emerge that take us to the next level’
then why would anyone need to make that decision for them? The fact is that unchecked capitalism is rapacious and for every example of small-scale sustainability there are examples of large-scale rapaciousness – which is why legislators ended up taking an interest. It was not the producers and the capitalists who cleaned up the air and the water – left to themselves they would have done only what was necessary when someone protested loud enough – how do I know that? Because that is what happened historically.
I have no problem with the Pope using the insights of experts to help us; do you? Or do you think he should only listen to people who agree with you – i.e. the small minority of experts on climate change? Consider for a moment, if that minority are wrong and we do nothing, then there’s really not a lot of point wanting more babies to be born and protecting the unborn – because we’re heading for a real problem. For me, being pro-life means just that – against abortion, against anything that pollutes and shortens life, and against judicial killing. Some folk are selective, I know, but I’m not sure they realise it.
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Regardless of all of this, I never heard of ecological sin until very recently. I find it preposterous that we are taking sins that are directly from the Ten Commandments and giving people passes based on their conscience and preaching and asking God forgiveness for the people’s ecological sins. In fact it is quite rare to hear a sermon on any serious sin today but not too hard to find a sermon on some popular movement we are being urged to support.
Yes, I hope to be remnant of the Church that Ratzinger spoke of: and bypass the political Church that will eventually be nothing more than a political party or a moral arm of an existing party.
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Sin is not restricted to the Ten Commandments – love God and thy neighbour is the whole of the Law. If we love our neighbour we try to not wreck his habitat – or indeed our own.
The Church is the Church, and there have always been those who thought themselves the pure remnant and those who recognised we are all sinners.
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As I said before this was covered if we only had preached; such as greed, gluttony, avarice and a host of other things which each individual can use to actually apply to themselves and gain sensitivity to them. Then they are confessed and we try to do better next time. The idea of Ecological sins leads to collective sins and collective redemption. It is also at the cusp of pagan thought. The brother bird and sister tree talk is only applicable as a rather sensitive treatment of all that is created by the hand of God for enjoyment and use. And it should be viewed from a spiritual aspect as a gift of God rather than put forward as an actual specified sin as I spoke before. I understand the spiritual modes to some extent and love animals of all sorts and the beauty of nature but I only see in it a reflection fo the Good and not God Himself that we are harming or my neighbor that I am harming. In fact my alms, charitable works, etc. are made possible by an excess of goods that are not required to take care of my family. I can either work, save and give back to society or I can avoid these things like a conscientious objector and find that the only place I can practice theses things is by the charity of others like living in a monastery and selling eggs, bread, beer, cognac, coffee or fruit cakes to support the order. But as a married man I haven’t the ability but to work within the confines of the economy that we have.
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Indeed – but what you say here is not the unrestricted consumerism you were espousing earlier. If all we needed was individual salvation then Bosco would be right – who’d need a Church? We are one body and each part should take care of the other. Catholic social teaching is clear on this.
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I am not aware of where unrestricted consumerism or capitalism is practiced where their are laws for both the manufacturer and recourse for the consumer for violating their rights as consumers. The legal system and preponderance of lawyers is testimony of that. I say that within the laws currently and the restrictions currenly we do the best we can. Sometimes we are choking out industries and others still need more restrictions but it is an ongoing process. It does not effect my salvation at all if I am a man of upstanding character and examen my life and seek forgiveness as I grow in awareness of myself and my shortcomings.
I can’t help but remind you that taking care of one another was seized by the government and professional charities who pull down 6 figure incomes. We can find a few who are too menatlly ill or sick from drugs or alcohol to get the help that is easily attained. But there are amongst them also many a scam artist who fraudulently steals money from the system and we have not found an effective way to rid the system of their corrosive effects and harm they do to those who actually need our help. My wife sees people every week that visit a dozen churches in a day looking for handouts when their is a common fund adminstrated by an agency set up by the Church so that they can catch these perpetual abusers. So we cannot even give out direct checks inside our parish unless it is someone whom we actually know within the parish who has fallen on bad times. We do the best we can C. We live in days where even a number of the poor have an angle to beat the system and get more than their allotted share.
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The reason you are not aware of it is that the State intervened and wisely did not just leave it to some magic ‘market’. Your country pioneered anti-monopoly laws.
I am intrigued by your statement that:
‘It does not effect my salvation at all if I am a man of upstanding character and examen my life and seek forgiveness as I grow in awareness of myself and my shortcomings.’ Is that all any of us needs for salvation? Awareness of our shortcomings is useless without amendment of life, surely?
In terms of allotted share, who judges that? Charity by the individual is not necessarily any better than the State running it – both are limited by the effects of our sinful nature. The Lord did not say come unto me and I shall give you according to your deserts – or did I miss that?
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Who said that we are not to try ammend our lives? And you will never ament your life if you do not first become cognizant of a defect in your character of charity.
Allotted shares are government agency rules. We individually have no control over them. And do your really think that helping an individual directly is not better than the secular humanistic approach of government? One is from the heart . . . neighbor to neighbor and the other is alotted as seen fit to redistribute my money through a taxpayer funded bureaucracy. I see no merit in the later but do in the former. In fact as more facts are found out about these groups our money is being siphoned into I have made a conscience effort to tailor my charitable giving to individuals that need help that cannot find it elsewhere. Last week a friend of my daughter’s who has had cancer half of his life (since age 18) has been fighting a new onslaught of the disease. Many of doctor bills are now going unpaid and he must pay them out of pocket. My daughter and her friends had a raffle, a party and a bowling outing to raise money for him and my wife and I were able to send a check that went directly in his pocket rather than through some agency. I don’t have worry about fraud for we know the young man. And I need not worry that some of my money may be used for abortions and contraceptions and such things which is becoming rather common practice within governement supported agencies; women’s health, you know.
Actual charity and humanism, though they both can do good are not exactly the same and do not come with the merit of acting through love of a known person or group of persons [missionaries and such] and extending a helping hand.
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You seem to be positing a binary division here – in civilized societies we have both. The is nothing to stop each of us giving to charity, but the sad fact is that if it was up to private charity many would starve.
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Where is the proof of that: there are many who starve today with the aid, food, medicine and doctors of mercinaries and world health groups who have thrown trillions of dollars at the problem for a long, long time now. It just goes to tell you that the poor will always be here. We do the best we can and for my money I want to control where the money is spent and I don’t like people gettin 1/2 million dollars a year to administrate the efforts. If I can give the person a personal gift then they are likely to see Christ in the charity. When the bureaucrats give they are likely to see a cold form of receiving the crumbs from the table of the rich.
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The proof is that the State stepped in – not because it was filled with philanthropic intentions, but because if it had not the situation would have been even worse.
Yes, the poor will always be with us, and nice though it would be to control where your money went, who is to say you’d target it at those who need it most? Nothing stops you giving of your income to those you want, but those no one would fund need money too.
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That may be though I am not convinced that this was what happened in the US. I think it was a PR program to paint themselves as the indispensible champions of the poor; to gain support and votes for a particular party and to lessen the hold of Religion with the unfortunate and the poor. Religion was the place the poor flooded to and looked to for a hand up both materially and spiritually. That was stripped away because, traditionally, those votes were cast using a moral lens that was provided by the churches and synogogues.
And the UN and the government target it to those who need it most? I think the feet on the street who were living with these folks had a much better idea or who needed their help than these bureaucracies.
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I cannot know what was in the minds of your legislators, maybe they were the unworthy, cunning folk you portray them as; not sure what it says about a country which elects so many such people to its legislature – but I would be sad for it.
Here it was simpler, middle class men who encountered real poverty for the first time when they met poorer people in the stress of the Great War and the Second World War felt they needed to do something to help them. The lead came from the Church fo England – perhaps an advantage in having a State Church. Did your churches play no part of welfare reform in the US? You make it sound a sad and soulless place.
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Well the more they get, year after year, in boom economies and in times of bust, and despite the general welfare, food stamps and govenment housing, they seem to think they need more money for all the good work they are doing . . and it doesn’t get better, it gets worse. How would you evaluate that?
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I wouldn’t say things are worse for people now than in the 1930s – I doubt many people would want to swap if they could.
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You’re picking a specific temporary crisis to evaluate the whole. I am talking about the trillions spent sense the War on Poverty by Johnson commenced. It hasn’t gotten any better and we have more charities now than we ever had.
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Now then, do I believe your opinion or the UN statistics on whether the war on poverty has helped?
Click to access chapter2.pdf
Their figures don’t support your narrative, but perhaps they have a bias and you have none? Or even the other way around? 🙂
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Well this is what I find disturbing: http://www.philanthropyroundtable.org/almanac/statistics/
Scroll down to GROWTH OF PUBLIC CHARITIES and look what has happened in the 13 years between 99 and 2012. 50% more Charities and averaging double the donations that they receive. Now this is on top of the UN work which is mostly coming from the US not to mention our direct aid to a number of nations. It is also astonishing, but not surprising that the individuals in the UK spend more per person than any other country in Europe for charity . . . though Germany has a far more robust economy.
So let us presume that the number of poor is declining per the statistics from the UN. Then why is more and more needed each year. Either we are not trying to make countries self-sustaining and developing jobs for these people or we only in the business of giving out welfare . . . much like the development of a continual welfare class in the US. That is not going to end poverty ever. And you know as well as I that the Jeffrey Sachs solution is to contracept and abort poverty from Africa and I do wonder how much of the increase you see in wages were caused by a declining birthrate.
But of course I don’t expect to end poverty. I am one of those who simply help those I can when I know where my money is going.
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Much of the increase has to do with the crises in the Middle East. Our intervention has had some devastating effects.
That said, I share your concerns. Quite why the head of a charity should earn twice as much as the UK PM is a mystery to me.
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And meanwhile, our missionary friend Rob is eking out a living as are his fellow missionaries. Corporate charity, is to me, a loveless business that is best exposed by a quick look at the Clinton Foundation.
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We should not judge anything by the standards is a Clinton – how she won the popular vote is a mystery
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In such a Godless age I am surprised she is not our President. She is the face of our present age I fear.
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Alas 😱
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I’ll leave you with a short paragraph from a series of talks Msgr. Fulton Sheen began on the radio in January of 1947:
Because the signs of our times point to a struggle between absolutes we may expect the future to be a time of trials for two reasons: Firstly, to stop disintegration. Godlessness would go on and on if there were no catastrophes. What death is to a sinful person, that catastrophe is to an evil civilization: the interruption of its Godlessness. Why did God station an angel with a flaming sword at the Garden of Paradise after the Fall, if it were not to prevent our first parents from entering the garden and eating of the tree of life, which, if they ate they would have immortalized their evil. God will not allow unrighteousness to become eternal. Revolution disintegration, chaos, must be reminders that our thinking has been wrong, our dreams have been unholy. Moral truth is vindicated by the ruin that follows when it has been repudiated. The chaos of our times is the strongest negative argument that could ever be advanced for Christianity. Catastrophe becomes a testimony to God’s power in a meaningless world for by it God brings a meaningless existence to nought. The disintegration following an abandonment of God thus becomes a triumph of meaning, a reaffirmation of purpose. Adversity is the expression of God’s condemnation of evil, the registering of Divine Judgment. As hell is not sin, but the effect of sin, so these disordered times are not sin, but the wages of sin. Catastrophe reveals that evil is self-defeating; we cannot turn from God without hurting ourselves.
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I can’t find the appropriate place to comment on the dialogue between Scoop and Chalcedon so I’ll quickly comment here: It wasn’t only the C of E that helped the poor: at Cardinal Manning’s funeral the route was lined by thousands of the poor of the East End who knew that he loved them and had helped them as much as he could.
I read a fascinating article in a US on-line magazine which helps explain how Clinton got so much of the popular vote: through the registering of votes by illegal Latino immigrants. The author, a Virginian, observed at many polling booths people were never asked for their papers (he proved it by pretending to vote twice himself) and he reckoned that illegal immigrants were most likely to vote for Clinton.
Like Scoop I dislike the ‘big’ charities which seem to spend so much on personnel and glossy advertising and “women’s rights” (when they are not actually corrupt, like the Clinton Foundation seems to be)
; I prefer to give to smaller ones that ensure almost all the money given goes where it is meant (Mary’s Meals over here, run from a garage in Scotland, is one of these.)
Finally, Bishop Sheen is terrific. I wish we had a tele-evangelist today like him. I know some people say Bishop Barron is a worthy successor. I hope Sheen will be canonised one day.
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I agree, and I think he will be. His cause, though slow, is moving along still.
If you want the rest of the whole broadcast to read you can find them here Francis:
http://the-american-catholic.com/2017/02/26/fulton-sheen-on-the-anti-christ/
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Indeed, Manning and the Church did fine work.
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Okay and Good bye.
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You need not be so sensitive Malcolm. We’re all just exchanging our view of the world as we have found it.
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I think we all need to remember that this is ecumenical, if not irenic blog. If we are once again going to insist on everyone conforming to RC standards and statements, well I can find other places to be abused.
Malcolm gave a perfectly reasonable account of why he supported CND, in the day. OK, I made it perfectly obvious that I strongly disagreed, but that I could also understand his reasoning.
That’s why this blog was founded, and that’s what I signed on for. I won’t participate in these metaphorical lynchings any longer.
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Not once did I drag Malcolm into it. If I cannot disagree with secular groups that entice people to participate in them, then what is the point of commenting at all? It was a continuation of my disdain for groups who parade themselves as something that in the end have much more to them than meets the eye. Period. No character assassination nor did I comment or say anything derrogatory about Malcolm or anyone else in particular . . . other than Obama, Clinton and Soros.
So I wonder what it is that you and Malcolm are both reading and whether this is a place where we can exchange our views concerning church, state, politics, ideologies etc. Whatever your reading into it, it is not what I wrote.
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Bullcrap. It was a personal attack because CND would have never come up if he hadn’t mentioned it.
And that’s the thing, no, you never attack openly, you sneak around and attempt to find plausible deniability.
As far as I’m concerned you owe Fr Malcolm an apology. I’m quite sure he won’t get it. Enjoy your sixth rate CP&S, at least there they take responsibility for what they say.
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Gentlemen – I am not Jess, so I lack her ability to say the right thing – but I am sure no one meant to offend anyone 🙂
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Sorry C. I suspect that is true, but I personally would hate to lose Malcolm again. I tend to be more sensitive to attacks on others than on me. If I’m read it wrong, I’m sorry.
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I hope we do not lose Fr Malcolm, he adds so much to this place – so yes, I agree 🙂
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He does, we need that full on Anglican voice. 🙂
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One of the many things we both miss about herself’s absence 😦
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Very much so. 😦
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Actually I think Chalcedon runs an excellent blog: vigorous, informed, ecumenical, charitable. That’s why I rejoined it after it (sadly) seemed to fall apart in the latter days of Jessica’s stewardship. All that matters is that we respond to the blog arguments with our own (measured) views, never insulting the person and never insulting their faith.
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Thank you for the kind comments Francis, they are much appreciated.. None of us doubts that the Faith once given is under assault by Satan, and our job is not to duck areas where we disagree, but to focus on what we have in common.
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So what that he mentioned the group? What of it? If it was PICO or ACORN I would have answered against those groups as well. How is that personal? If I attack the motives of the Vietnam protesters (which I admitted I unwittingly marched for once) then I am using the same yardstick for all of these groups.
Oh please, Mr. Peace Maker. If I was attempting to ‘sneak around; and find ‘plausible denial’ then I havn’t been too good at it. I consistently voice my views on everything from politics and religion. And, by the way, where did the ‘hidden’ attack on Anglicanism come from? What difference in what was said does my being an RC have to do with anything? I have skewered the Catholic Church [and only the RC Church] in what I wrote today.
Tell me what I am apologizing for and I will consider an apology NEO. Maybe you owe me one for such an over the top evaluation of what was actually said . . . not your imagined plausible deniability and sneakiness and snarky comment about a sixt rate CP&S . . . whatever that ad hominem is supposed to mean.
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What’s CP&S?
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The website Catholicism Pure & Simple . . . Kathleen writes there and, of course, NEO praised the site to her though he obviously didn’t mean a word of it.
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Well, I have to admit that when I saw Malcolm’s “and Good bye” crap that I reread the comments twice and could not understand what the problem was. So NEO went off the handle also. But, remember NEO, I’m a friend of Scoop so take it for what you want.
As for wanting to plead for someone not to leave, I’m done with that crap. I commented the other day that I didn’t want Malcolm to leave and but it’s been less than 3 days and he’s upset again. Both C and me agree that Scoop didn’t mean anything. Earlier in the thread Malcolm told Scoop to lighten up, seems he should take that same advice.
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Well it beats me chief.
I guess only Malcolm and NEO are able to understand what Francis and I are saying. NEO is the arbiter of all disputes and can read secret encoded messages between the lines and Malcolm seems to think that I am preaching Roman Catholocism to an Anglican Priest. I am almost speechless . . . but then, that is pretty nearly an impossibility. I always have something to say.
It’s comforting to know that we have a mind reader here to decipher my cryptic hidden messages however. 🙂
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Of course I know that Malcolm; but I’m not sure how that is relevant to my earlier comment? I was questioning those who talk today about ‘Justice and Peace’. I suspect that during the old CND days – 40 years ago? – that you participated in, there wasn’t he same ‘spin’ on words that there is today. There is a lot of ‘virtue signalling’ today, particularly among those of a Left-wing persuasion. All Christians, of any denomination, must be wary of political speechifying. Indeed, we are told to be as wise as serpents. I don’t discern any lack of charity in this forum. May it long remain so.
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Indeed, it was a different time, in many ways. I knew q
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[to finish. computer glich] … of our people that served at Greenham Common, almost none of them had any ill feeling for the CND people. Their leadership, perhaps, but mostly they liked the people.
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Totally see what you’re saying. This topic has very much been on my mind lately.
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CP & S stands for…Catholicism for the purely simple. Its a forum for pope and mary worship. Well, you know, most people are on the path to destruction, and there is little I can do about it.
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