In my old Church, and in my new one, the unspoken question is the one which is the title of this post – does dogma matter? Clarity is not a word readily associated with the delphic pronouncements of the present Pope, but on the ancient principle that ‘If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it is a duck‘, it would seem safe to say that he thinks ‘mercy’ trumps dogma. If this is not what he thinks then his comments about the undesirability of ‘rigidity’ and keeping the commandments in such a fashion would make even less sense than they do on that reading. We saw much the same thing at the Church of England Synod last week, where the mantra of ‘if it is love it is fine’ was used to promote the idea that gay marriage was fine for clergy. What is being said here is that whatever Scripture and Tradition say can be negated by the exercise of our reason: it was our ‘reason’ that got us expelled from Eden; it was our reason which was damaged in the Fall; it is our reason which is defective; it is our reason which needs guiding by Scripture and Tradition. It is the very essence of the division in Christianity which is evidenced here: what has priority, our unaided reason or our reason as aided by Scripture and Tradition?
When I am told that we shouldn’t read St Paul’s admonitions on homosexuality the way they have been read from the beginning, I ask a simple question: before someone needed to reinterpret what he wrote, did anyone advance that argument? The answer is no. The unanimous tradition of the Church is unequivocal on this subject and on re-marriage for divorced people, as it is on fornication, euthanasia and abortion. The fact that the world does not like the stance of the Church on these matters might well be, in the minds of some, reason to go back and reconsider our teaching; but make no mistake, that reconsideration is prompted by the desire not to be so out of step with this world – at least in its Western sexual and social mores, mores which even in the West, a generation ago, were considered sinful. So, if we want to be honest about this, advocates of change should be clear – they want to make sin into something else because they feel that in our modern Western society free choice is a prime good. Fine, but God has his ten commandments, and they are not presented to us as ‘God’s ten optional suggestions’.
Dogma is the collective wisdom of the Church and its meditation on Scripture, it is God’s guidance to us. We can ignore it, we often do because we are sinners, but at least, until recently, hypocrisy surrounded this practice, and we might recall that hypocrisy is the tax that vice pays to virtue; but now there is no need. If we have abolished sin, then someone needs to tell God that in our wisdom we do not need his guidance; the last time anyone did that they found themselves expelled from Eden. We ask, with all the petulance of a spoiled child, ‘where is God?’ when bad things happen; but we seldom stop to ask how far bad things come from our ignoring God. He is where he always is – loving us, waiting for us to repent and reach out in love to him. If we have become too wise and too grand for that, then we have indeed chosen the light of our own reason to God’s light – and may he have mercy on us and guide us to repentance.
Scoop said:
Very good C.
It seems that what is in vogue today is a smug presumption that God, being love and mercy, will forgive me no matter my faults, my lack of desire to stop sinning or living a live devoid of any motivation to try to please Him. God would never vent His wrath upon my precious soul. Nay, my wonderful, spoiled self can literally get away with murder because God is merciful and loves me . . . whether I love Him back is optional on my part. No need to avoid breaking the rules and laws that God has revealed to man and no need to worry about the warnings and the destruction God has also revealed for those who reject Him; His laws and His admonitions are impossible for man to uphold. Surely, I will not die . . . but I will be like God. So let us put aside our worries and our fear of disappointing Our God and Our King. Let us sing and make merry while the light still shines. Training one’s will and avoiding serious sin is too rigid a way of life and total nonsense anyway. After all God is like the ultimate sugar daddy who has made me the center of this life and there is nothing I need to do . . . perhaps I don’t even have to believe in Him, really. And if i am wrong . . . I will not suffer but just have my soul anihilated . . . as a gentle night’s sleep. Its all good.
The best thing we can do, in order to appreciate God’s love and mercy, is to stop being rigid about those things which we are not supposed to do. After all, it is by sinning that we get to experience God’s mercy, no? How else can we experience His mercy unless we sin boldly as Martin Luther suggested?
The devil’s gospel seems a ‘nicer’ gospel and his god a far more loving god than the one depicted in the Holy Bible. So, don’t worry, be happy!
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chalcedon451 said:
It’s an interesting phenomenon, but I suppose in a world where all that matters are ‘feelings’ then God wouldn’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings. This God seems absent from the Christian Gospels, so how fortunate that modern clergymen have found him.
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Scoop said:
You have to search between the lines don’t your know?
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chalcedon451 said:
No, that’s old-fashioned – you have to look at the whole scope of the Gospels 🙂
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Scoop said:
Indeed the meanings of words or sentences is rather incomplete reading of the Scriptures. Let us grasp the overall feeling that we get: that is the only thing we need to know. The rest is pious nonsense. 🙂
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NEO said:
Quite. Far too often, it seems to me, we build ourselves a Jesus, who looks a good bit like us in the mirror.
Love and Mercy are all very well, and I believe they do trump all our sins, but only if we remember the rest of the story, “Go and sin no more”. Well, no man has ever managed that, but we should at least be able to manage to not do that specific sin anymore. It seems to me that the CofE’s three-legged stool of Reason, Tradition, and Scripture has become very wobbly indeed as two of the legs have been sawn off, and quite crudely, at that. Not to say that it isn’t the same in nearly all of our churches.
By the way, Geoffrey wrote on this as well, as have most of us, quite a while ago, it’s here:
https://jessicahof.wordpress.com/2013/05/24/tradition-scripture-reason/
Every time I see these arguments, I think of an American legal term: ‘Emanations and Penumbras’. It is a term that allows us to find things in written documents that simply are not there. It was most famously used to find a right to privacy in the Constitution, one that meant that the US Government could not intrude so far into a woman’s life as to make it illegal for her to kill her unborn child. It seems to me that many of the arguments we see about many things in the church have much the same aura about them. Not to mention the same deleterious results.
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Scoop said:
Well the ancient serpent was sorta right: we have become as gods as he predicted.
Now we decide what is right and wrong, what is good and evil, and what our final end will be. We get to be the judge and jury for our own trial and, not surprisingly, we have decided that we are not guilty. Ain’t it great to lift those old burdens off our backs after all these years? We are now fully in charge of our own salvation and we have decided that we are saved no matter what. Its all there in the gospels, dontcha know?
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NEO said:
Yeah, bloody wonderful, especially the part about not having to pay attention to the knowledge we have gained over millennia because history doesn’t matter, it’s what I want, and right now.
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Scoop said:
Well its a wonderful time to be alive, NEO. You can have your cake and eat it too.
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NEO said:
Yes, sir!
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Scoop said:
Also your second point on the actions of the Supreme Court in regards to the right to an abortion, that is most appropriate. Since the death of Norma McCorvey (Jane Roe) recently, many stories that reflect how this distraught and largely illiterate woman (who obviously suffered from a number of psychological problems) was used by everyone to further their own agendas. She was a pawn in the hands of the elitist women’s movement and then changed her position regarding Roe v. Wade but still seeking recognition, money and fame throughout her short life. She was a complex person with many faults but her main fault it seems was that she was easily seduced (not simply sexually) but also into causes and protests where at best she was marginalized and used only as a symbol to be trotted out for show at rallies for women’s health or choice advocacy proceedings. It really is a rather sad tale and we see that the entire Roe v. Wade episode was nothing other than a show that was based upon make-believe and untruths. Quite a spectacle when one thinks about it.
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chalcedon451 said:
Abortion is the slavery issue of our day. Back then people argued slavery was ok because blacks ‘weren’t fully human’ – same false argument, different target – although many aborted babies are black.
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Scoop said:
Good point. Both have their basis in the dehumanizing of a certain class of people.
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chalcedon451 said:
Indeed – the similarities are striking
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Scoop said:
They certainly are . . . as also with the Jewish holocaust of WWII.
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NEO said:
Yes, and when I wrote that comment, I wasn’t aware of her death. Some years ago she got herself clean, sober, and joined the church (not sure which one, which matters little, here). She has been a pro-life advocate since that time. A sad life, mostly, but a good example of Christ in the world, and a good end to this part of her life. I hope rests in peace, God bless her.
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Scoop said:
She was baptized into an evangelical group in a swimming pool. But even then she had gone from being seduced by men to living with as an active lesbian for some 35 years which finally ended. God only knows if it was a change of heart or simply a falling out of the two. She caused a whole world of hurt which traveled across the Western world and is still going strong today but at least she did try to right her wrong and let us pray that God will have mercy on her soul for, what hopefully, was a change in heart and a sincere desire to make amends for her past mistakes. Rest in Peace.
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malcolmlxx said:
chalcedon, I agree with much thst you say in your excellent post.
I cannot speak for other Christians but one day we shall all have to answer to God at the judgement seat, the Bema.
Religious Dogma is unlike any other, in that it forces us to choose and change. It does not allow us to stand still in complacency and error.
If we reject its truth we are left with a ruined game and expelled from paradise. If we accept then we have to allow ourselves to be changed. That goes for any Christian regardless of packaging.
The centre of our change is in our eternal soul subjected to the Grace of God. We do not change ourselves. We allow “grace” to change us and that is frightening because we want to be in charge.
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chalcedon451 said:
That is very true, Malcolm. We have to recognise the need to change – which is impossible if we think we do not sin.
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malcolmlxx said:
I think its important to saythat the Synod and the bishops do not represent the entire Church of England. Many of us ignore their secularist meanderings. and just get on with proclaiming the Good News, the need of confession forgiveness and penitence. .
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chalcedon451 said:
And you are what keeps many in the Church as a result, I am sure.
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malcolmlxx said:
chalcedon, I like to think so. It is my hope that I am faithful to Our Lord and am not going to sell him for a mess of pottage.
A mess of pottage is something immediately attractive but of little value taken foolishly and carelessly in exchange for something more distant and perhaps less tangible but immensely more valuable.
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chalcedon451 said:
Good for you, Malcolm. If I’d had access to a priest like you I might still be an Anglican ☺️
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pilgrimwaypulpit said:
The question that must always be asked in these matters is not does dogma matter but “Do we accept the Bible as the Word of God, as the sole authority in all matters of faith and practice, Is the whole of my thinking governed by Scripture, or do I come with my reason and pick and choose out of Scripture and sit in judgment upon it, putting myself and modern knowledge forward as the ultimate standard and authority?”. . (Martyn Lloyd Jones)
Flourishing relationships lie at the heart of God’s pattern for community life. But our ruling elite have turned its back on this pattern. These policies have contributed to the tearing apart of our society’s moral, relational and spiritual fabric, thus providing a seedbed for a host of problems. The relational foundation of Britain is being gradually dismantled. It is an inevitable consequence of turning our back on God’s pattern for society – with huge ramifications.
Our present age seems to be hell bent on fitting its modern thinking and lifestyles into the Christian ethos, that the Scriptures need to be adapted to reflect our changes in society, and that if we react against these modern trends we are called bigots and out of touch with society . But if we choose pick and choose which Scriptures are valid and which are not, as if it is a movable document then Christianity loses its relevance and authority, Scripture then becomes just a point of reference. If we tear down the Spiritual foundations of our faith, then we have no basis in which to live victorious Christian lives.
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malcolmlxx said:
It is scripture that judges us and not the other way around as is the contemporary heresy.
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Scoop said:
C, and all. I think this correspondence between Professor Peter Kwasniewski and anonymous Prist N, is not only pertinent to their main topic (youth ministry) but to the wider problems that we have been discussing and which are expressed as well in this post. Tease: Newman is quoted on several occasions. 🙂
http://www.onepeterfive.com/youth-ministers-give-up-past-embrace/
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
Fine, but God has his ten commandments, and they are not presented to us as ‘God’s ten optional suggestions’.
Well, if one doesn’t like a particular commandment, take it out of your bible and add a different one. That way one doesn’t feel like they are breaking a commandment.
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chalcedon451 said:
Or, if you can’t read, make it up and pretend God is as stupid as you are and does not know the difference between worshipping an idol and bowing – you make God in your own image at your own peril, Bosco.
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Bosco the Immaculate said:
lordie be, land sakes alive. Now who said anything about worshiping or bowing befor idols.Muss be yo guilty conscience. (;-D
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chalcedon451 said:
You do, frequently, must be your poor memory.
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