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Catholic Church, Catholicism, choices, Christ, Christianity, Faith
To the evident discomfort of some here, we have a long-time contributor who goes by the name of Bosco, who criticises the Catholic Church and all ‘religions’, preferring, instead, his own unmediated connection with Jesus. He recently committed some of his thoughts to a piece here, and it, and the comments it provoked provide an interesting insight into the strengths and limitations of that view.
Its strength is obvious.As Bosco recently put it:
When one is born again, one is changed. Theres no two ways. You know you have had something happen. You know Jesus is rite there with you. He lets you know. he starts working with you. Theres no uncertainty. No confusion with the holy ghost. Its real.
Not all the insults he directs at my Church can take away from that. It can make me doubt his level of theological literacy, and it can make me lament the language he employs about my own Church; but it cannot detract from the effect he says it made on him. I, too, would be an even worse person were it not for Jesus.
But in this attitude there is, it seems to me, some confusion. He states: ‘If you ask him to reveal himself to you, and he does, you wont have all these worries.’ But then, when asked whether one could lose this sort of salvation, Bosco states he does not believe in ‘once saved, always saved‘, although he thinks ‘its really hard to lose ones salvation‘. This puzzles me. You know you are ‘saved’ Bosco says, but you can lose salvation. Does that mean that the promise of salvation Bosco has could be lost if God changes his mind? This seems, at least to me, a strange version of God.
It opens up some odd prospects, and ones of which St Paul was only too well aware, as his letters to the Galatians and Corinthians show. If one is ‘saved’ and one has that assurance, then one is amongst the ‘elect’ and if God is faithful, then one cannot lose that election, whatever one does. St Paul clearly warns those early converts against such an attitude. Salvation, for him, is like a race, and one must keep running to the very end to win the crown of the victor. Nowhere does Paul talk like Bosco and tell us of his assurance that he is ‘saved’. He remains convinced he is a great sinner, and he keeps up the effort to be worthy of the Lord whom he serves. For him, as for the sort of Christian I am, salvation is a process. We were saved from sin when we were baptised; we are saved from the effects of sin by our sacramental life; and we hope that, at the end, God will judge us worthy of his greatest gift of being with him for eternity.
Bosco tells me ‘One cant unmeet Jesus. If you ask him to reveal himself to you, and he does, you wont have all these worries.’ But what of all those who ask for this (and it is not clear from his own account that Bosco ever actually asked Jesus to reveal himself) and do not get it? Are they not part of the ‘elect’? If so, then why should they bother trying to lead a good and moral life? If, whatever they do, they are damned to hell, why not h=behave as badly as the law will allow and ensure that at least in this life, you have the best time possible. It isn’t a question of damning the consequences, after all, because if you have asked and Jesus has not turned up, then you are already damned.
This seems to me as far away from the message Jesus offers us as you could possibly get. Jesus came so that all could have eternal life. Not everyone will receive him, but to as many as will receive him, he offers eternal life. There is nothing here about a random set of appearances to sup with the elect, such as Bosco. There has always been, within Christianity, the danger of various forms of pharisaism, that sense that others are unworthy where one is, oneself, worthy, but of all of them, it seems to me the idea that Jesus will appear in a random way to some of those who ask him to appear (and to some who don’t) is one of the worst. It offers no hope to many, and an unconditional offer of salvation to others, regardless of the lives they lead. This is certainly how a cult would operate, but it is not how the Church founded by Jesus has operated, nor is it how most Christians, in whatever church, looked upon these things. It is, perhaps, a form of hyper-calvinism which speaks to the contemporary need to be special. I’d be interested in your view.
I’ve always believed that the key to salvation is abiding. “Abide in me and I in you.” Its also an abiding in Jesus with others. There’s no room for egocentricity. We are saved with others in an ongoing relationship centred on and in the Saviour.
Our Lord in St John’s Gospel gives us the symbol of the vine. which finds it’s true fulfilment in the Eucharist. The entire chapter of John’s Gospel both looks back to Jesus’ teaching about the Eucharist in chapter 6 and looks forward to his High Priestly prayer in John 17.
I never cease to be both amazed and inspired by the words of Jesus at the beginning of chapter 17. I meditate on them almost every day whilst walking along the beach.
“And this is Eternal life, that they may know thee, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.” Amen.
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Thank you, Malcolm. Wise words.
As I say in the post, I am puzzled by the view Bosco puts forward. The easy thing would be to doubt his word, but I don’t. But the logical consequences of his view seem pretty bleak to me – back to the question of how you deal with those who want to know Christ but have no revelation of the sort Bosco had.
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I’ve always been a little apprehensive about individuals who have had a dramatic revelation. Surely its better to trust the Church and her sacraments as proclaimed in the Gospels and Epistles? One kind of slowly falls in love with Jesus and we discover that trusting him not only works but leads to a deeper life. I’m unable to point to any specific conversion experience. Yet in my heart of hearts I experience him without having to say why or how.
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That matches my own experience exactly, Malcolm. When I encounter Him at the Eucharist, I know who it is I encounter, but as to any explanation of how I know, I have none.
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Grace – chalcedon. The Hesed (חֶסֶד) or loving generosity and compassion of God is vouched to us.
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So it seems to me, Malcolm. Just seen an interesting comment from Nicholas, and I’d be interested in understanding more of the Calvinist position.
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Historically, I have avoided weighing in on these discussions for various personal reasons to do with mental health, amongst other things. However, I would comment that there are a number of angles to this problem and one that we don’t discuss perhaps as often is apostasy, which is arguably the more prominent one in a lot of the relevant Biblical passages.
As Dr Heiser and others argue, Israel as a nation is elect, but that doesn’t entail that every Jew in under the Old Covenant (or now) is saved. Those who went after other gods and who did not repent were considered cut off from the covenant people. Salvation is about a relationship with Yahweh.
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Indeed, and like apostasy, heresy is another worry of the Evangelists, which reinforces the notion that the early Christians did not take a Bosco-like view of salvation.
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I obviously cannot act as a magisterium to divide heresy into categories, but I do feel we have to be careful with this one. Clearly we all have errors and blindspots in our theology since we are all fallen, but not believing in the doctrine of the Trinity would be an example of a heresy I would consider significant enough to affect salvation.
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I agree. The early Church rightly regarded it as the acid test.
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There seems to be a wide gulf between traditional Christian thought and those of the Boscovite Calvinism as depicted. One thought amongst many is to wonder what these Calvinist’s on steroids believe happen to children who are still-born or born with a serious brain defect which will not allow them to understand the Gospel much less embrace it and ascent to it. Their very lives seem as important as does the life of a fruit fly or cockroach. Unless one understands Baptism as that which operates without our help from our rational minds, there is nothing that can be done for these. Baptism will have to suffice in my mind for that which they cannot respond to. There are many who will never have the rational faculties to be confirmed or to ‘open the door’ if Jesus is knocking on it. Seems a rather cruel diety that has no plan for some and no answer for the grieving parents of such a child.
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The Boscovian deity seems a rather cruel figure given to random acts, and one quite content to see most of those he created cast into the lake of fire. We’re a human to behave so we should not worship him, so I am unclear why this deity requires anything from us or expects us to behave in a moral fashion, when he doesn’t.
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I think many evangelicals would respond to the problem of aborted children and so on by denying the doctrine of original sin. They would hold that each person is accountable for their individual sins, not for those of Adam. Furthermore, since very young children do not have the mental capacity to understand right and wrong they cannot be held accountable for “evil” deeds committed. Thus, they would argue, God does not impute sin to them.
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I quite agree, C. It also seems to me that the metaphor of the door as used was not simply a one-off opening of the ‘doors of perception’ of each individual . . . a forever ‘yes’ to God. It is only the first step amongst many and there are many more mountains to climb and rivers to cross in one’s life before we rest in the shade and drink the cool waters. Why would an apostle say that they were working our their salvation in fear and trembling if the road were not precarious enough to warrant this statement? Seems we are to be on our guard and not rest in our ‘self-assurance’ . . . praying always for perseverance of faith and begging always for God’s mercy for our many sins.
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That seems to be Paul’s message and that of the NT. I am clearly not understanding something here.
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No, I think we do understand. It is just that we find this thinking quite muddled and inconsistent with Christianity itself. Either that or it is an ‘experience’ not unlike the feeling of well-being one might experience on certain drugs. They cannot deny their own experience . . . so to speak.
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Key word is “work out your salvation”. One has to have salvation befor one can work it out. Those who are religions think one has to be saved in stages. That’s because you cant understand and wont until you are also born again. This is scriptural.
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We do not think that we are saved ‘in stages’ Wayne. We know that we are likely during our lives to go through periods where we are in a ‘state of grace’ and times where we may be in a ‘state of grave mortal sin’ . . . thus the importance of the sacrament of Reconciliation. The hope is not die in a state of mortal sin but in a state of grace. If you knew what the state of your soul is going to be at the moment of your death then you can say you are saved. If not, then you work it out with fear and trembling . . . knowing full well that we are weak and we can fall into grave sin or error at any time.
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:” knowing full well that we are weak and we can fall into grave sin or error at any time.”
Gee, I guess your religion taught you that. Slip in aand out of grace and hope one doesn’t die in mortal error. Sounds like a crap shoot.
In Christ, the born again have a sure foundation and there is no fear. Jesus is the Prince of Peace, not doubt. Try asking for this miracle of salvation. Its way better than the fear and doubt that your religion affords.
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No, this is what St Paul says. The dilemma is that what you say and what St Paul say are not the same thing. Why believe Bosco and disbelieve Paul?
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That makes no sense. If I am working out the solution to the problem, I don’t have it, that’ what ‘working out’ means. Again, the only way you can maintain your case is to misread the English language.
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Either one is born again or one isn’t. You think you can work out salvation? Your religion teaches you that as a substitute for the real thing. Time is running out ol bean. Religion or relation. I saw that you said you see god at your church in the Eucharist thing. You go visit god. Shame what religions do to people.
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No, that is what your religion says. It is not what St Paul says or what Jesus says. I see your method. You cherry pick bits of the book of the Church to support your own man-made religion. Well, best of luck, and I hope you are right.
But let us stop for a moment. If you are, most of us have no hope of salvation unless God randomly sends us a spirit. That’s fine, but actually means most of us don’t need to bother at all. If we are saved, God will let us know. If he doesn’t, then we are damned anyway, so we might as well get on with things.
Isn’t that what follows from your man-made religion?
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No, what I said is that I meet Jesus where He told us He would meet us – in the bread and the wine. Again, I simply follow what the Bible says Jesus says. You have to deny he meant what he said and substitute your own words for his. Does that not trouble you?
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Well, my brother, I too grapple with that same question, and ive never got a good answer to it. If one is destined for destruction….why bother? I am also botherd by it. The nice little old church going , giving, kindly, old lady will wake up in hell, because she never knew Jesus. I believe im troubled by that on a daily basis ever since I was born again. When im in a crowd , I look around and think….all these people are going to wake up in hell. I stood on the promise that my house will be saved, and my recalcitrant daughter informed me one day she was now a follower of Jesus.
I don’t have a good answer as to why some don’t experience what I and other born again folks do. My first thought is what Jesus said. That ye ask amiss. Maybe people have some preconceived idea of what Jesus will do to them. maybe they expect a mythical queen of heaven to be waiting for them. I had no preconceived ideas. Actually, I thought I was done with the holy rollers and good riddance. Get back to my mystical Led Zepplin and LSD and weed. Then again, mybe one is just asking to be born again but inside they think that they are actually good to go because someone told them they are gods children. Those that are whole need not a physician. Bottom line is, keep trying and asking. The kingdom of heaven will be taken by violence. Demand to be saved.
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Thanks, Bosco. Yes, it is baffling.
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Strangely that capriciously cruel God, from what I’ve read of Malcolm’s excellent recommendation yesterday, was also one of Luther’s problems with the medieval church. It’s always been a problem, I suspect. It seems to me to go far into the difference between works and faith. I need to reread, but seems to me Luther found the answers in Paul, at least mostly. Difficult points here, for which I’m obviously not qualified.
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It seems to me that part of the problem is the subjectivity of one’s own experience (cf. Kant’s transcendentalism). We can doubt our salvation, but that does not in and of itself entail that we are not saved – unless salvation by faith is defined as unwavering faith.
The tension that emerges – just from this one thread, mind – is between a view of salvation as dependent upon us and one of it as dependent on God. God’s action is a necessary condition for salvation, but from this point the roads of theology diverge.
I can understand why Calvinists have their doctrine of “unconditional election”, because it is entailed by their definition of grace (and other things). But if the definition is altered, then it no longer becomes a necessary consequent of the other premises in our reasoning.
Contrariwise, those who argue that we can in some way forfeit our salvation presuppose that we have free will and that free will is allowed a hand in our salvation. This is a reasonable position, but to fully support it, we must deal with some difficult verses in Romans, Exodus, and John.
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Might be good to expand this, if you want, Nicholas – sounds as though you understand the position which eludes me, and I’d be genuinely interested in knowing more.
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Yes, I probably should write a post on it. I have occasionally touched on this stuff in my posts on Calvinism and Romans, so there may be some synthesis and shortcuts I can take. I’m just going to look for a particular post I remember.
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Thank you, Nicholas. It is genuinely something I don’t ‘get’.
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Mostly over my ability to respond, Nicholas, but I think I see what you’re driving at, at least.
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For me it resolves itself thus. I have no idea why God loves me, but He does. In return I love Him and seek to do my best to follow Jesus. For the rest, it depends on God whether I am saved to be with Him for eternity.
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I think that is a very humble position, and this is also why this debate is difficult and is analogous to debates in philosophy about God’s attributes. People with different positions, if they are sincere, are guided by a kind of piety. They are each trying to defend something about God, according to how they perceive Him. But if the understanding is wrong, then the defence is unnecessary or misguided. Calvinists have vigour because they want to defend the position that our salvation is totally unmerited. Their piety is directed towards what they perceive as the glory of God. Anything that resembles human works strikes them as taking glory from Him (as per their understanding of Romans). Again, I’m not a Calvinist, but to some extent I can empathize with them.
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I’m entirely on side in terms of unworthiness, but I think all Catholics are.
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Definitely. As I said, I think the problem basically comes from synthesis: the way in which we combine our concepts to form the doctrine of salvation influences how we view what counts as “works” and what doesn’t.
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I have scheduled an introductory post on the topic for tomorrow. I don’t think it will in and of itself answer your questions, but hopefully the series as whole (if I am diligent) will produce light rather than heat. My aim is to help us all to understand and empathize with Calvinists, while also demonstrating weaknesses in their argumentation.
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Thank you, Nicholas.
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“but hopefully the series as whole ”
Another series. Be still my beating heart.
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This is my favorite topic, beside the Feast Day of St Bosco.
The topic….How do I Know Im Saved.
If you have to ask that question…guess what.
When one is changed, they know it. I thought, at first, that I was having a acid flashback that I heard so much about. I said to myself..Bosco, calm down, its must be a flashback. Just sit tight and it will go away. Everything look vain and useless. I saw the world and everything in it as worthless and vain. When I got home I had a over powering urge to grab the bible. My parents got scared and wouldn’t let me take the bible out of the library. I went and got it the next morning.
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So, you hadn’t been asking Jesus or knocking, he just turned up?
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Ive told this story befor. I was tricked into going to a Jesus festival. The poster said free music, free food, free love. So, I was on my way to another free concert which were happening all the time. I was gonna get me a chick. The only chick I got was a Chick Tract. A girl took me aside and asked me if I believe Jesus is real, etc etc. I said, well, yeah, I believe all that. Then she made me say the sinners prayer with her. That was all I needed. Im outta here. Anyway it was getting late and I was ready to get out of there and away from those gat danged holy rollers.About 40 mins later , on the ride home, I was changed.
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So where does that leave the idea that we need to knock and Jesus will enter? You were not knocking.
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I sorta was. I was” singing” in the choir at my church. The minister was a family friend. I figured that satisfied my godly duty. He musta wanted me for something. Shortly after I was born again I went out into the world as a missionary. I took no 2 sets or clothes or money and god housed and fed me the whole way. Maybe that’s where I did some good. have you ever lived solely by faith, my brother?
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It may well, Bosco. I am sustained in what I do by faith.
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have you lived by faith? Your every meal…your shelter, your clothing? behold the birds of the air, they sow not neither do they reap, yet your heavenly father feedeth them
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Given I have had no such revelatio,pn, it might be slightly foolish to give it all up and see what happens.
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Im not trying to slight you. I was sent out as a missionary as the apostles were, with nothing by the clothes on my back. Not all are called to do the same thing. Im just sharing my witness. People doubt my salvation and even say that I have a demon. A servant is not above his master. I count it all joy when I am reviled. I witness from a point of having lived by faith. Im not some armchair Christian that has always played it safe with a good job and stable home. Ive been on the front line, so to speak. That’s why my faith cant be shaken.
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Indeed, but would have done that with no revelation?
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I didn’t have a revelation
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So what did you have? A revelation is defined as a message from a God.
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I didn’t get a message or hear a voice.
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So what did you get?
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As an Aglican I have always felt free to draw on the Eastern Orthodox tradition as regards salvation.
Orthodox Christians hold that man was originally created in communion with God, but through acting in a manner contrary to his own nature (which is intrinsically ordered to communion with God), he disrupted that communion. Because of man’s refusal to fulfill the “image and likeness of God” within him, corruption and the sickness of sin whose consequence is death entered man’s mode of existence. But when Jesus came into the world He Himself was Perfect Man and Perfect God united in the divine Hypostasis of the Logos, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. Through his assumption of human nature, human existence was restored, enabling human beings, the fulfilment of creation, through participation in divinity by incorporation into Jesus Christ.
“The Word of God came in His own Person, because it was He alone, the Image of the Father, Who could recreate man made after the Image. In order to effect this re-creation, however, He had first to do away with death and corruption. Therefore He assumed a human body, in order that in it death might once and for all be destroyed, and that men might be renewed according to the Image [of God].” St. Athanasius, On the Incarnation
Salvation, or “being saved,” therefore, refers to this process of being saved from death and corruption and the fate of hell. The Orthodox Church believes that its teachings and practices represent the true path to participation in the gifts of God. Yet, it should be understood that the Orthodox do not believe that you must be Orthodox to participate in salvation. God is merciful to all. The Orthodox believe that there is nothing that a person (Orthodox or non-Orthodox) can do to earn salvation. It is rather a gift from God. However, this gift of relationship has to be accepted by the believer, since God will not force salvation on humanity. Man is free to reject the gift of salvation continually offered by God. To be saved, man must work together with God in a synergeia whereby his entire being, including his will, effort and actions, are perfectly conformed with, and united to, the divine.
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Very much my belief, Malcolm.
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As a recent convert to the Catholic faith, I see so much misunderstanding between Catholic and Protestant beliefs, particularly on the issue of “salvation”. I have yet to meet a Protestant who subscribes to a “once saved, always saved” viewpoint. Most Protestants believe that their salvation CAN be lost, and that they must “work out their own salvation with fear and trembling”. However, many Catholics are unduly concerned by this “salvation” terminology – for the Catholic it appears to mean that salvation is automatically ensured to an individual once the Sinner’s Prayer is recited. Not true, and you would be hard-pressed to find a solid, scripturally-informed, Protestant Christian who actually subscribes to this point of view.
On the flip side, many Protestants believe that the Catholic church teaches that even nominal Catholics are ensured salvation simply through the ritual of baptism. They believe Catholics have a “one and done” view of theology – once a person is baptized and confirmed, they’re good to go and they don’t need to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling because they’ve received the sacraments. Protestants think that the Church teaches that a change of heart is not necessary, nor a truly contrite heart that is sorry for past transgressions and is striving to live a life of holiness and virtue in accordance with God’s will – as long as one has been baptized and confirmed. Again… not true.
The strange thing is… truly informed, real, “born again” (for lack of a better phrase) Catholics AND Protestants believe the SAME THINGS regarding one’s salvation. But we don’t bother talking to each other about it, since our main objective is to prove each other wrong and convert the “sinner” to our way of thinking.
*sigh*
It’s genuinely exhausting to see Catholics and Protestants arguing about things they actually AGREE on.
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True. But Bosco is, as his comments show, one of those who does believe that he is saved and most others are not 😔
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I don’t believe it….I know it.
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Yet you had no revelation- so how do you ‘know’?
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How do I know what, my brother?
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If you didn’t have a revelation, how do you know God sent you the new spirit?
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I DIDNT KNOW AT FIRST THAT I HAD BEEN BORNAGAIN. iT WAS PROBABLY YRS LATER THAT I FOUnd out. Its when I look back that I remember something happening to me. I thought it was indigestion at first.
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That seems a bit strange. How can you not know you have been born again?
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It never ceases to baffle me how people go religion shopping and settle for the catholic cult of personality, with its idols and morally bankrupt priestcraft.
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It never ceases to baffle me why people can’t see a picture or statue without thinking someone must be worshipping it.
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Why do yall need the images so bad?
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Some of us like art – it helps lift our thoughts to higher things.
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Cant do it on your own? You need a idol made by human hands to aid your spiritual life?
I serve an invisible god.
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Do you not find certain scenes or music uplifting?
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Well, eh, now that you ask…of course I do. I love the movie “The Ten Commandments” with Charlton Heston. Charlton is a real nice and down to earth guy. I met him at a wedding and stood in line with him to get a drink for half an hour. Real good guy.
I like looking at art also.
I don’t get on my knees befor them at gaze up at them longingly and pray to them to send a message to Jesus for me.
You call yourself Christian and condone people bowing befor images of men and females? Then you wonder why I don’t think you are born again?
When I was carnal I even knew it was stoneage to bow befor idols. I was no bible scholar. The only place I saw people bowing befor idols was in movies. That’s because I had never been into a catholic church.
Come to my cinematic site and see cathols in their natural habitat.
cherrybombcoutour.blogspot.com
Come in and relax. Kick yer feet up and stay awhile. Sign in.
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No one is worshipping idols Bosco, this is just sheer prejudice on your part; get educated.
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Tell me, if you had little children and were religion shopping, would you chose the Catholic Church? Assuming you were literate and watched the news. and news papers.
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I do and I did. That there are sinners in it is fine, I’m a sinner. Are you without sin?
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Come on man, don’t play the sinner card on me. When one waltzes into a church, one isn’t expecting the priest to grab their kids and rape them in the back room. That’s what one expects when one goes into a bar. matter of fact, id feel safer in a bar full of drunks with my kids than I would in the catholic church. And that’s the gods honest truth, baby cakes.
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A tiny minority of priests do such things. So, are you a sinner?
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Im not a sinner. I was born in the Immaculate Conception.
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St john says those who say they are without sin are liars. Are you sure you read the right Bible. I will let you find the verse.
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Tiny minority.(;-D
Its one after another, all over the globe. And those are just the unlucky ones that got caught.
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The are tens of thousands, more than any other church. About 2% is a lot of people but a small minority – do the math.
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Yeah, sure thing. I read somewhere, a cathol site, where it said the CC has cleaned up the whole priesthood and they are now free of bad priests. The propaganda maching Catholic Answers.org is a shade more realistic but still isn’t far from that. They just about say there is maybe one or two peds in the priesthood. Evildoers(sexual perverts) seem to flock to priesthoods and ministerial and pastor jobs. I read about them here in the US in Baptist and Methodist churches, mainly in the southern states. In the southern states its mainly homersexuals, not so much peds. But that’s what people get when they flock to religions.
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Out of about 410k priests, there have been about 3400 convictions of proven allegations. Do the math.
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Me and good sister Mary are both born in Immaculate conception. Eat your heart out, you sinner.
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Well, again, I go with Scripture:
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1-John-1-8/
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0If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
hey, you use the same online bible site that I do.
Say, if good sister Mary can be sinless, so can I. So there.
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Didn’t know you were pregnant with the Messiah.
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Ill tell you in a heartbeat which religion I WOULD choose.
The Mormons !!!! You got that rite buddy pie pie. Id have me 10 wives so fast it would make Huge Hefner mad.
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I think you’ll find the USA forbids polygamy.
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Going where no reality show cameras had gone before, TLC this fall aired “Sister Wives,” a television series that invited voyeurs into the lives of a fundamentalist Mormon family that practices polygamy.
The finale aired earlier this month, when Kody Brown of Lehi, Utah, married his fourth wife and, with the addition of three stepchildren, expanded his kid base to 16.
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/10/25/sister-wives-explained-a-fundamentalist-mormon-polygamy-primer/
Ahem…Uh what did you say again? I couldn’t hear you.
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Are you saying that is legal?
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Laws are meant to be broken. Tons of multiple marriage in Utah, the nest of Mormonism. Hell with the law. Im mnot supposed to tear the tag off my pillow, against federal law, but I do it just for the thrill of it all. Yeah baby yeah.
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An odd reaction if you know Jesus
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Come on my man, lighten up, have some fun. tear that tag off the pillow and feel the rush of sheer lawless abandon rush in. AAAHHHHHhhhhh. Feels good.
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I shall leave that to you and Flicka.
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Oh, eh, Flicka sends his love good brother. By the way, Flicka has a friend and wants to know if your still single. maybe we can double date. Go out for some carrot juice or something. (;-D
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Me, I’m hitched already.
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Crowds of an estimated 10 million people took part in a gigantic procession in Manila, Philippines, to honour 17th century black statue of Jesus Christ. The icon, referred to as The Black Nazarene, is thought to have healing powers and is able to grant miracles and can cure ailments and provide good health and fortune.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/31d39c8a-f112-36f4-a033-1c9256ff2186/manila-brought-to-a.html
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Not sure of your point here, Bosco, are you saying God can’t heal people?
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I hadn’t heard any stories of Catholic Idolatry recently and was hoping it was becoming passé. But millions of papiest in Manilla are carrying some graven image on their shoulders, and claiming it has powers. The priests stand by and watch, or maybe participate. The Holy Father has never once uttered a word against that practice. In short, as I always say, its encouraged by the clergy. You claim no one worships the images. Yeah, you don’t, but have you ever toured south America? Ever seen one of those celebration of some graven image? They worship the image because it is who it represents. The bishops and priests don’t discourage it….they encourage it. But you, good brother,will dismiss it as a wonderful thing , and Bosco is a bad person for bringing up the subject.
We are taking about millions of folks in danger of hellfire.I don’t turn my head and say it doesn’t exist.
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What is worshipped, or rather who is worshipped is God, not the idol.
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