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It is a joy to have the Rev. Malcolm back with us. This blog was started by an Anglican laywoman, and since her retirement from blogging, we have missed that irenic Anglican voice – and have been much the worse for it. One of the pleasures of having Malcolm back with us is that his posts breathe the air of a Christian who is on the journey we are all on, and who is capable of standing back and reflecting on the experience in a way that helps us all.
His most recent post, Journeying is a perfect example of his reflective writing. He does not shy away from using words like ‘doubt’ and ‘uncertainty’, and when he writes:
One has to be suspicious of individuals who think they have everything worked out, because invariably they haven’t. There is an un predictability about life that is valuable
I sympathise. As Malcolm says, life is more complex than any set of rules and regulations can encompass, and we need, always, to remember that the Sabbath was made for man and not the other way round. Repentance is a crucial part of the Way, for sure, but we must not not make the yoke of regretfulness heavier. There may be fortunate people who, after they have confessed and been absolved, can consign the burdens of past sins to the scrapheap of their own history, but for those of us not granted such Grace, we need to be able to look ahead and set our face to the far horizon.
It is not for nothing that Christianity was first called ‘the Way’. For all the certainties sometimes enunciated by those who feel ‘once saved. always saved’, for myself, and for others I know, our faith is a journey – it is a way we are treading. We know where it leads, but to continue to tread the way requires, as Malcolm has pointed out, faith. The Lord seems to my mind to promise us a reward for our faith in Him; He does not promise us a reward for our certainty. Blessed are those who, having seen, believe, of course, but it seems to me that those who believe through faith are also blessed – and it is harder to have faith than to have certainty. It is there, I sometimes think, that the sort of certainties put out by those such as our friend here, Bosco, are of far less help to the Christian and to the seeker than the language employed by Malcolm.
Saying, ‘all you have to do is knock’ is all very well, but what about those who have knocked until their hands and heads hurt? One answer would be the one offered in classic Calvinism – you are simply not one of the elect, Jesus did not die for you. That is an honest answer to the enquirer and the seeker who has not found answers, but is it consonant with the tenor of the teaching of Jesus? Whenever He encounters faith, he praises it, but it is plain to see that faith is not the same as certainty. The Roman Centurion has faith that Jesus can cure his servant, but that is not because he knows who Jesus is, or because he is certain from past knowledge of Jesus; he simply has faith in the authority he sees in Jesus.
Malcolm makes a profound point when he writes: ‘Real faith is about trust and not certainty’. The Way is long and it is winding, and sometimes it seems uphill all the way. But the alternative would be to abandon it – and faith says ‘no’ to that. Lord, help though my unbelief and see me safe to the harbour at the end.
I grew up in a ‘once saved, always saved’ tradition, and I found such a theology to be a terrible, crippling burden when I didn’t feel the certainty I was told I was supposed to feel. It opened a host of questions and revealed itself to be a circular argument. Faith must be allowed to struggle with doubt without having to be threatened with the possibility of not being elect, or of wondering, “was I even really saved to begin with or have I been deceived this whole time?”
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Thank you, Steven. I think that sort of Protestant theology is a terrible thing, as it increases feelings of worthlessness. “I have knocked. I have prayed, I have begged, but still He says nothing.” I have known people who have been there and seen some of its effects. I have never been sure if its purveyors have been aware of the damage they do; I hope not.
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As a pastor I’ve had to pick up some of the casualties and believe me its no easy task.
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I am sure it isn’t. It seems extremely unkind to me – and well done you for helping people damaged by such thinking.
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If one is not sure one is saved…….guess what.
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In which case, why bother at all? The rest of us can do whatever we like and the eternal penalty will be the same as if we were good. Is that really what you believe? It’s a nice recipe for anarchy. I presume you can also do whatever you like as you are ‘saved’? So if you break all 10 Commandments nothing will happen to you as you will be saved?
Let’s get this clear. The God in whom you believe will save you whatever you do, but damn me however good a life I live? Really? What a dreadful God you believe in!
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Its up to each man to ask to be saved(meet Jesus).
My spirit is willing but my flesh is weak.
If you feel damned then you better do something about it. Why hasn’t your religion made you feel secure in your salvation? maybe a trip to the Religions R Us store is needed.
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Because the Bible knows nothing of your man-made idea of once-saved always saved. St Paul writes about himself running the long race – so he clearly didn’t think he was saved. Your religion is made up, Bosco, it has nothing to do with what the Bible says, and is simply made up by you. I don’t doubt your conversion, but you understand very little of anything Jesus told us.
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Ill have to agree with you there. I don’t understand hardly anything. I let the Shepherd do my thinking.
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But why did St Paul, who had a revelation from Jesus, not simply say he was ‘saved’? Why was he still running a race and hoping for the crown of the victor? Your version of events does not fit with what Paul says, or what the Evangelists tell us. It was made up by men in the 1500s. It is absent from Christian history before then.
Indeed, if you were right, why did Paul have to write to the Galatians and the Corinthians about the dangers of backsliding after conversion?
Again, we have the word of the Bible and the word according to Bosco.
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Good brother Paul didn’t say he was “saved”. he knew he was lucky to know the Lord, given is background. Saved is short for saved from the wrath of god. That word seems to bother the heck out of you. Im sure there is a better term. Elect is a good term. Knowing the Lord is a better one. believe me, the elect are is shock because they realize they were headed for hell, no matter how godly and nice and giving and church going they were.Hell is full of nice little old ladies and preachers and , of course….priests.
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You still fail to explain why, if Paul was saved from the wrath of God, he wrote about having to continue the race until the end. Your deity seems a rather nasty person if he sends innocent old ladies to hell – why worship such a being?
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paul warned the Galations because it was easy to backslide. he must have got wind that they were going back to the idolatrous religions that they left to become Christians. You know, all those pagan religions that had statues all over the place and hellbound people on their knees befor them.
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Sure.0, but if they were ‘saved’ what of it? If you are saved you are saved.
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Once one is born again, one cannot be unborn. One can act all sinful and everything, but one is still born again.
You cathols have always been down on the concept of being saved.
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That is not what St Paul or the Bible say.
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Either your reading skills are dull or you don’t see what the words say in scripture. My guess is that you cant see them. Paul didn’t have a revelation. Jesus showed himself with a personal appearance. You religion people keep saying I had some kind of revelation or just claim to know Jesus and stuff like that. I didn’t have no stinking revelation, like you religious people think, like sitting in a garder and listening for the soft gentile words of god. Ahhhhhhhhh, how sweet.
God is a consuming fire, and the heavens and earth will melt in his presence.
I was changed. From carnal to spiritual. It has to happen or one just stays carnal. No matter how much the go to church and how much cracker they stuff in their face….they are carnal.
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Been here before. Paul uses the word revelation himself, and yet you tell us he had no revelation. If the only way you can make your case is to deny Paul had a revelation, you have no case.
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Yes, Malcolm’s words spoke strongly to me in “Journeying”, but his words always speak to me. I too have missed the Anglican voice here, mine as a Lutheran is perhaps the closest to it, but mine is harder edged, and that is not always appropriate. perhaps a bit of the “a time to build and a time to break down” dichotomy. But I think we enter upon a time when healing is paramount, if not now, soon.
In any case, I am very glad that he has returned to us.
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Me, too Neo. So good to have him back, and I hope he can stay.
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It is indeed, very good. I hope so too.
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Well I hope so too.
Sometime I’m asked by various parish folk what is meant by faith.
I tell them its abandoning oneself to Christ in longing love. There’s no compulsion or pressure, simply becoming aware that in the abandonment we are One with Him
“Well what if there is no response or answer?” is invariably the reply.
“Well He’s still there,” is my answer. “His silence is the silence of Love. We just have to wait in the silence.”
Its often the case that we do not so much lose our faith, but cease to be guided by it.
“The Way,” which is different for all of us in our approach to it has a common denominator. It is this waiting on the Silence of God in love.
Father Jean – Pierre DeCaussade who has greatly influenced my spiritual path calls this path – “Anadonment to Divine Providence.” (b. March 6th 1675.)
I Like the translation by John Beevers. (Image Books Doubleday.)
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Thank you, Malcolm – a joy to have you back.
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That is, of course, when it gets hard, very hard sometimes, when we receive no answer, even worse than “no”.
One that moved me greatly was Mother Julian’s “Revelation of Divine Love”, especially where she said this. (Last I checked it is available on Amazon.)
“If there is anywhere on earth a lover of God who is always kept safe, I know nothing of it, for it was not shown to me. But this was shown: that in falling and rising again we are always kept in that same precious love.”
I second C’s sentiment above.
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I’m not familiar with that translation Malcolm but did read the translation by Fr. John Joyce, S.J. some many years ago and found it quite inspiring.
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Also, along the same lines as de Caussade, have you also read Trustful Surrender to Divine Providence by Fr. Jean Baptiste Saint-Jure and Blessed Claude de la Colombiere? Also inspiring and a quick read to boot.
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NEO
I keep Mother Julian’s little book by my bedside and frequently refer to it. Her wisdom is unsurpassable.
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It really is, nor am I surprised, Malcolm. It’s one of the most read on my Kindle, as well.
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Saying, ‘all you have to do is knock’ is all very well, but what about those who have knocked until their hands and heads hurt? One answer would be the one offered in classic Calvinism – you are simply not one of the elect.
If good brother Calvin said that, it is close to the truth. But it is the will of the Father that all men be saved. The sad fact is….most men are going to hell. One has to ask for salvayion by Christ, nothing wavering. Listen to me, who wasn’t planning on being saved. I wasn’t wavering, I was saying anything to get out of there. I was beyond wavering. Knowing Jesus as I do, he picks whom he will. No matter what one thinks. The surprise is we don’t know who is all the elect.
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In which case we should all go about pleasing ourselves. If we are among the elect, he will tell us, and if not, who cares? Is that not what follows logically from such a position? Why should anyone bother? We can all be like you were, and if we get the message we’re saved, we’re fine and don’t need to change, because we’re saved, and if we don’t get the message, we can do what we like, and as long as we don’t get caught breaking the law, that’s fine, as we’re going to hell any way. Isn’t that what follows from your view?
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Negative. That isn’t my view. And its not receiving a message that makes one born again. The unsaved have all these fanciful ideas what being saved is.
Youre sitting there minding your own business, and all of a sudden everything seems different.
No voice in your head.
C
No prayerful contemplation
No gazing longingly at a cement figurine.
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OK, but how does that detract from what I said? You seem to think that only the elect can be ‘saved again’ and that the rest of us are damned. Why should the rest of us bother very much then? If we’re not saved, it doesn’t matter what we do – as long as the law doesn’t catch us. What a damnable idea?
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Um, the elect are the saved. As long as one is alive one can be saved.
Like ive said a million times…I wasn’t out looking to get saved. But im glad I met the Creator.
The “rest of us”?
I used to be “the rest of us”
I believe the Lords words don’t come back void. Maybe someone in here might become an elect. The elect are like a small group whos ship sank and they were picked up by a small life raft while the thousand other passengers drowned. They are grateful for the raft and know that they were earmarked to die but got saved anyway.
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So, you sincerely believe that it is arbitrary? It doesn’t matter how you behaved in the past, or in the future, if you are part of the elect you are saved, however badly you behave, and damned, however well you have behaved? What a damnable idea, Bosco.
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Well, ive been avoiding answering that charge. But since you have cornerd me….yes, it is as how you say. But the saved have a nagging spirit that keeps them from enjoying their sin. And it makes the saved know that a man sows as he reaps. The unsaved would have sex with a married woman. The saved would have a tough time climbing in bed with a married woman because out of dear for the Lord. being saved does put on breakers.
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But the saved could do it and still be saved. That’s not what Paul told the Corinthians – but I guess he knew less than you?
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Ill have to re Corinthians again to see what Pauls beef was.
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Do. One of them was that people who thought they were ‘saved’ were sinning.
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Ok, I ran thru it. Paul said some were commiting fornication and stuff like that. Paul reminded then not to hold men in esteem. You know what I mean. Of course you guys don’t do that. (;-D
He said not to have divisions. You know, like orthodox and Roman and Copts and Ukrainian and what all have you. He says its wrong to do that. But you guys wouldn’t do that, would you.
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So, he clearly thought that put their souls in danger – but according to you they were saved, so why was there a problem for Paul?
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Corinth was a wicked place to begin with. The saints there were falling back into the wickedness. Paulo wanted them to act in more of a godly manner. And the HS penned that book for our generations benefit. All those people are dead and gone. The bible is for us, the living.
Good sister ginny said she just got back from adoring the sacrements. (;-D
Must be some catholic ritual or another. Ive heard of adoring Mary events. When cathols get together and hold up a human in esteem. (;-D
You guys don’t stop.
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But if, as you believe, the saved are saved, why did it matter? Are you saying people can lose their salvation?
Jesus’s body and blood are the sacrament we adore – what would you do infront of Jesus, chew gum?
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Seems like good brother Chalcedon thinks only sinless people should be saved. Even though he dot me to admit that his priests and popes were sinners and could still be used by god.
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No, we are all sinners.
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I wish I could get a fellow traveler to come in here and help me.
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They’d be welcome.
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Paul also said that big shot important people usually don’t get saved. He said that high fallutin complicated concepts and speech are no help to anyone. You know, like some in here have these complicated diatribes about religion stuff…I wont mention names.
Im glad you forced me to read Corinthians again. I mean I know all this, but now I remember where it is so I can reference it quickly.
And then holding men in high regard. That is for the unsaved. Some in the church in Corinth were not born again and Paul said to go on and toss them out. Paul gives a strong warning against this holyman routine. Well, everypone is born unsaved. But now that you heard the word, you have no excuse for falling for the bigshot holyman business.
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Again, you change the subject. Paul brought the Galatians to Christ, but feared they would be lost through sinning. That does not fit what you say about once saved, always saved. So, who is right, you or Paul?
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Silly me. Ive been taking the once saved always saved heat from you, when I don’t believe I ever said that. Youre chewing me out some something I didn’t say. Your getting senile old boy.
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So, you do believed that you can lose your salvation? If so, bow can you be certain you are saved?
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Me personally? I met Jesus. Or rather, he came and supped with me and I with him. I have confidence my sins are coverd in the blood of the Lamb. Someone else can renounce their sainthood, I suppose. One cant unmeet Jesus. If you ask him to reveal himself to you, and he does, you wont have all these worries.
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What do you mean when you say he supped with you?
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I mean, the spirit that he gave me knows Jesus and was with him in heaven. My new spirit was created in heaven and then dropped down into me. The unsaved persons spirit, the spirit one is born with, is created here on earth and never has been in heaven.
Does that help?
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To a point.
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I believe its really hard to lose ones salvation. God doesn’t give you a new spirit by mistake. He knows what hes doing. Im the only person that god regrets saving.
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But you admit that you can lose your salvation? In which case, how can you know you are saved?
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When one is born again, one is changed. Theres no two ways. You know you have had something happen. You know Jesus is rite there with you. He lets you know. he starts working with you. Theres no uncertainty. No confusion with the holy ghost. Its real. jesus said ye must be born again.
By the way, in Corinthians, Paul said he wasn’t sent out to water baptize people. He was sent to proclaim the good news. he didn’t concern himself with the outward sign. You guys sweated me over that issue, cause that’s all you got, are rituals.
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We simply said what Jesus said about being born again. He said water and spirit, you said water was just for show. Who to believe, you or Jesus?
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Well, Paul didn’t concern himself with water baptism, and he says so. But you can feel free as a bird to worry yourself sick over it. Jesus didn’t even water baptize one soul. hahahahaha. So whats your spin on that, Mr. Bible scholar?
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My spin is that Jesus said you needed to be born again by water and fire. Your spin is to ignore the words of Jesus because they don’t fit you.
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