Tags
Catholic Church, Catholicism, Christianity, Faith, Marian Devotion, orthodoxy, st cyril of alexandria, Theotokos
The origin of this solemnity of Mary, Mother of God, which the Church celebrates today, goes back to the early Church and to the controversies about the nature of Our Lord Himself. Some then, as now, taking a partial reading of Scripture, insisted He was just Spirit and that He had only seemed to be human. This heresy, called docetism (after the Greek meaning ‘to seem’) was one picked up by the founder of Islam, which to this day cannot see the truths the early Church saw. At the Council of Constantinople in 381, it was established as dogma that all three Persons in the Trinity were divine, but that did not settle the question of how the divinity of Christ related to His humanity? Here the question of the role played by His mother became central to the discussion within the Church.
All acknowledged she was the author of His human nature. Contrary to the propaganda spread in parts of the West after the Reformation (and here both Luther and Calvin stand innocent, as both had a great devotion to Our Lady), early Christians took a great interest in her; in the parlance of the faithful she was termed ‘Theotokos’ – that is ‘God-bearer’ or, more commonly, Mother of God. The patriarch of Constantinople in 430 was a monk from Antioch called Nestorius. He found such imprecision not to his taste. He wished to call her ‘Chistokos’ – the Christ-bearer. To many of the faithful that was to imply that Jesus was not really human. If Mary bore the human nature only, where did the divinity come in? That sounded like Theodore of Mopsuestia and adoptionism and opened the road to docetism. To Nestorius, to call he the God bearer was to miss out the fact that Jesus was human and opened the way to Appolinarianism. To the patriarch of Alexandria, Cyril, this was an affront.
Christ’s two nature were united in the one person of Jesus, and Mary could not have given birth to only one of them; Nestorius had committed the impiety of separating the two natures of Christ. Once the Word became flesh, the two natures were united in the one person. To the Antiochene ears of Nestorius this sounded as though Cyril was saying Christ only had one nature, and that the divine had absorbed the human. I have written elsewhere here on this and do not want to go over the same ground.
Cyril saw that if the human and the divine were not two natures united in one person, then the alternative was some form of docetism or subordinationism, and that was why, at Ephesus in 431 he fought so hard to secure the acceptance of the term ‘Theotokos’. One of the interesting phenomena here was that it was popular piety, the acceptance by the faithful, that Mary was the mother of God, which helped secure Cyril’s victory. As so often, the faithful saw clearly what it took learned theologians time to articulate. What had not been assumed could not have been saved, and since our human nature had been saved, it must have been assumed, which meant that in some way it was united in the one person of Jesus the Christ. Unfortunately, the question of the form of that union was not adequately answered, and it would take another Council to settle that.
If Mary bore the human nature only, where did the divinity come in?
Glad you asked. Godd sister mary bore the human part, and the divine part came from His Father, the Holy Ghost.
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So, you think the Father identical with the Holy Ghost?
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happy new yr my brother. How come my comment doesn’t go thru when I use the word Diana?
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It somehow went to ‘trash’!
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Good brother, can you remove the muzzle from my mouth? Thanks in advance.
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Is there one?
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Wouldn’t you know if there is one? 2 comment in a row with the deceased royal pricesses name disappeared. You know, the deceased wife of Prince Charles.
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Nothing in the spam, so don’t know what happened.
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Uh, yes, I think the Father is identical with the holy ghost, don’t you? They can split up when they want. I don’t know how it works. Not a big concern for me.
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No, I don’t, nor does any real follower of Jesus. We believe what the Bible tells us – try it.
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Well, its unimportant.
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Can we get this straight, you are saying it isn’t important whether Jesus is the Holy Spirit, and whether Jesus is the same as the Father?
I think the words you are looking for is ‘I don’t understand, so I don’t think it matters’. Of course, the Evangelists thought it mattered a great deal, and St John’s whole Gospel is designed to show what the answer is. But to you, a modern American, ‘its unimportant’. Truly, you could not make it up. If you had any credibility, you’d just have blown it.
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Ok, I think its unimportant, but heres what scripture says. Remember when the religious people said that Jesus tosses out devils because Jesus is also a devil? Remember how it went on to say that Jesus spirit was the holy ghost and blasphemy against the holy ghost wont be forgive unto men? Jesus body was the son of god but his spirit was the holy ghost. Says so very clearly in what I mentioned. I don’t feel like looking it up. it don’t matter. If you have the son you have the father.
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No, the Scriptures do not say that Jesus’ spirit is the Holy Ghost – where do you get this rubbish? You have invented a whole new heresy with the idea that Jesus’ body is the Son of God and his spirit is the Holy Ghost. No idea who you have met who is claiming to be Jesus, but it sure isn’t Jesus as the Gospels reveal him.
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Just reading ‘Early Christian Doctrines’ by J. N. D. Kelly. There certainly was some early speculation that the soul/spirit or rational element in Jesus was the Holy Spirit but I doubt Bosco gathered the idea from any historic source and he has managed to give it a unique Boscoite twist.
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As you say, Rob, this was certainly an early theory, and I suspect it came from the same source as Bosco’s theory – a personal reading of Scripture. Passages can be read in that way. Arius read Scripture to support his idea that the Son was the first of the creatures created by God. There is not, it is said, a heresy that cannot be supported by selective personal reading of Scripture. For me, it is one of the reasons the Church and its Tradition are so important. All these heresies have been with us throughout history, and the advantage of the Church and its Tradition is that it has lived through these ideas many times.
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I suspect that personal reading was part of the problem. Also there were various schools of thought striving over different concerns in East and West to understand the trinity, divinity and humanity of Christ; prior to having hammered out these matters.
Most of us if we are wise consider scripture deeply ourselves while recognising we stand on the shoulders of others who preceded us.
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As I say in the piece, the Council of Ephesus represented a critical point in the conflict between Alexandrian and Antiochene views on the Incarnation. The position of Our Lady was, and remains, critical to any understanding of the Lord being both fully-human and fully-divine. I don’t doubt that Bosco is sincere, but I wish he were better-informed. It is hard to understand his rhetoric about personally knowing Jesus when set against what are obvious wrong understandings of who he is.
One reason I am a Catholic is that it seems to me that the Church has thought long and hard about these things, and that I am, effectively, basing myself on things such as the Nicene Creed which is a product of that thinking.
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I was brought up in a Christian movement that used no creeds but fully held to the Nicaean and early creeds which I had no knowledge of.
When young my constant efforts at evangelism brought me into contact with JWs and various cults and some of their material disturbed me.
This caused me to enquire from my teachers and thoroughly study right through the scriptures on these fundamentals of Christianity. Sometime later I discovered the creeds, considered church history, the development of orthodox doctrine and all the early heresies.
A whole group of friends made these studies together. A mentor gave us each topics and names of particular Fathers to research at our city central library. We then shared and discussed our finding as the process went on for many months. In this way the work of the Fathers and the creeds confirmed to me what was clear to me from scripture.
I was course in benefit from the formation and teaching I received as a child from the church I was brought up in.
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Interesting formulation Rob – after all, if it firmly held to the Nicene and other Creeds, it was credal 🙂
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//Jesus spirit is the Holy Spirit// That is not what the text you mention says Bosco. Again I suggest you speak to a Calvary Chapel pastor as you seem to have some respect for them.
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Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
God says he will put his spirit upon him.
But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
Jesus goes on to say; But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
When Jesus was baptized the holy ghost as a dove lighted upon Jesus. But these are the least of the unsaved problems. The unsaved have to worry about dying unexpectedly.
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I was wrong, it’s the oldest heresy of all, the belief Jesus was a man into whom the Spirit entered. It’s what Muslims believe. Conclusive proof you’ve never met Jesus. Satan assumes many forms to tempt us. You can escape if you swallow your pride and turn to Christ’s Church.
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Cyril was saying Christ only had one nature, and that the divine had absorbed the human.
Christ “shed his divinity” as stated in the bible. But that’s of no consequence. The Roman state run religion, in order to bring in the Diana worshipers, renamed her Mary. That’s where all this mary worship comes from. Not scripture or god, but from godless pagans.
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So you claim, with zero evidence
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Its common knowledge that the new Roman state run religion incorporated the gods of pagan religion in order to smooth over the transition of pagans to this new religion. They were not about to give up their holidays and gods. The epheisians were died in the wool Diana worshiper, and many were also in Rome. To placate them they renamed Diana statues Mary statutes. Everyone knows this.
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In other words, you have no evidence. “it is common knowledge’ is the last refuge of the terminally confused. No, it is not ‘common knowledge’, it is a prejudice held by a few people such as yourself. Some of them also believe the world is flat and that the moon landings did not take place.
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It keeps happening. And you say I run and hide and dodge issues.
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No idea why so many comments ended up in ‘trash’.
Yes, you keep telling lies about the Church. Only you know why.
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Bosco Check out what you have said i.e //Christ “shed his divinity” as stated in the bible.//
You will find that not a single pastor at Calvary Chapel will agree with you. In Philippians we learn that Christ emptied Himself and took the form of a servant but Christians do not interpret that to mean that ‘Christ shed His divinity’ while on earth.
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I believe that’s the passage . But ill look around and see if I can find it. Rite now im being botherd with evicting two different people. Ive got to get out in the cold and drive over to this rental down a dirt road.
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The text is Philippians 2:5-11
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I very much enjoyed this post. One small thing: I am not sure that I would characterize the Islamic position on Jesus as a form of docetism. My Muslim friends are always quite quick to stress Jesus’ humanity, even while avowing him a prophet unique in history and (depending on their tradition) according to him a special role in the eschaton. Perhaps I am misunderstanding your point…..
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In accepting his humanity they deny his divinity, taking the view that the divine did not suffer and die on the Cross – a key tenet of docestism.
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Yeah,phillipians 2;7. He was fully man and his spirit was the Holy Ghost. Go figure. He is called the son of man. We don’t understand the ways of the Almighty.
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No,nowhere does the Bible say Jesus is the Holy Spirit. Your beliefs are an odd mixture of heresies, closer to Islam than Christianity.
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If god and the HS and the son are one, wouldn’t that be the end of the discussion?
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That is what Muslims believe. No follower of Jesus believes it.
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Bosco:
The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one in their essential nature and deity. Usually expressed as being of one substance. However, logically they cannot be one in all respects as if they were there would be no differentiating between The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. We would not even be able to identify them or recognise them as three in any way.
Each of the three is God but neither one is the same as the other in all respects. The most obvious example is that the Son is the image of God and has a physical body, The Father and The Holy Spirit obviously do not.
All analogies of the trinity are inadequate but Ice, water and steam are all the same in that they are H20 but the form or mode of existence of each is different although they are the same compound elements.
Does this help to explain why everyone else here understands your comments as mistaken?
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Bosco, this, written by a colleague of mine, might help you:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Trinity-How-Not-Be-Heretic/dp/0809149338
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Heres my zero evidence good brother.
the Modern Catholic Dictionary gives this definition of Diana of Ephesus:
“Roman goddess of the moon, identified with Artemis among the Greeks who worshiped her as a virgin huntress.
Is it coincidence that Diana is a Roman goddess of the moon and the Catholic Mary are are both from Rome and the catholic Mary has a moon either under her or over her. This is too easy. You know, im not all upset about this, if anyone should accuse me. Its the folks that waste time chasing a phantom that should worry. But that’s not whats going to send you to hell. Not knowing Jesus is what dooms you.
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Yes, we all know who Diana is. It is your odd identification of her with the Mother of God that is in question, and to anyone who reads English as a first language, or even a second, your quotation does not support your argument.
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Well, you know, that’s not the biggest issue. God could require your soul at any moment, like he did Cary Fisher.
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It is the biggest of all issues. It is about who Jesus is.
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C, I will plead once again to begin 2017. If & when you & Bosco want to converse, please go to his site and have at it.
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Steve, Bosco is hardly the only one with the odd views he puts forth, and I do have this odd belief in free speech. Having been to Bosco’s site, it is hardly a fit vehicle for discussion.
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How dare you accuse my vehicular site as not being a fit vehicle. I welcome all who seek the truth to come and have it out with me on my vehicle to salvation, but im having trouble getting into the owners area. Keeps rejecting my password. I cant update it. But come as you are and sign in. All are welcome. Sign in and become a follower.
cherrybombcoutour.blogspot.com
See you there my friends
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Bosco, your site is a site for sore eyes.
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Why thank you my brother. How kind of you to say so.
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Good brother Steve, aren’t you one of the rats that deserted good sister Jess sinking ship? Now you want to come in and throw your weight around? Hope youre having a rip roaring time over at good brother Servus dead pan site. (;-D
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Out of curiosity, C, does Gregory of Nazianzen tackle this part of theology much or does he mostly stick to the economy of the Trinity?
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He does deal with this too.
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I must get round to delving into him again after I’ve finished my Plato reading.
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