I have been asked to demonstrate that being born again doesn’t imply one has to subscribe to a religion. Good enough question.
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
This is how Jesus Himself said for us to know Him. He didn’t mention joining any particular church. He does mention that there are 7 churches. These are/were groups of believers along a trade rout. Me personally, I don’t know why he has these 7 churches. Ive been told that they were here for our edification. That we can see our self in each one or some of them. Let the Papist note that there isn’t one in Rome.
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Jesus says ye must be born again. Those who aren’t born again but assume they are because their costumed holyman told them they are, have a problem with me saying I can tell if someone doesn’t personally know Jesus. Too bad. Tell it to your costume.
Let us note that Jesus does not tell good brother Nicodemus to go join something. But lets note what He did say. Jesus said that the born again come and go and you don’t know where they came from or where they went. You could be on a train and someone next to you asks you if you would like to meet Jesus. Then he or she gets off and they are gone. No uniform, no flag, no costumed man calling himself by gods name Holy Father. Your lucky if they give you a card with a meeting place on it.
Now if the born again are like the wind that comes and goes, why would one expect a born again to have a religion with a headquarters and a flag and a jail and a bank replete with laundered drug money and costumed holymen parading around withtheir hands folded in phoney prayer.
Yes, deny not the gathering of the saints. I was led by the nose to a gathering of saints. Once one is born again, the holy spirit takes you to where some of them gather, locally. You get to know them and do things together. No central org. Its you and the holy spirit. Now these souls who have been duped into thinking that one has to go to some certain temple and in this temple one will find God, they don’t think God has any power outside the temple. Who knows what else they think. They tell me that…..”oh, the early church had elders and decons”. I wouldn’t worry bout that as much as you should worry about not being born again. Large groups were coming to the lord in Judea and they gathered. Someone had to be the big mouth and decons made sure there were enough chairs and maybe food and water and supervised those who performed these tasks. This is the Church. The body of the saints.
Catholics have been told that their org is Christs church. Jesus founded a church on a man. Silly ninneys…Jesus didnd found a church…he built on it what was already there, and he used the word build when he had his talk with good brother Peter.
He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
It should say that Jesus charged them that they should tell no man that Peter is the first Pope, the head of all believers. A sane and sober look at what just transpired with tell you this….good brother Peter said…..Thou art the the Christ. Jesus goes on to say…upon this rock will I build my church. He didn’t say that upon you Peter I will build my church. Only an idolatrous deceived religious devotee would think that Christs body is built on a man. Yeppers, and there are 1.2 billion of them, just as the Master said there would be. All thru the bible from cover to cover, Jesus is the Rock upon which his church is built on. Its not surprising that devotees stare at the 2nd command and look me straight in the face and tell me….God commands us to make images and to bow befor them. Its easy for them to believe salvation flows forth from a human being.
So in closing….one will not find Jesus recommending anyone to join some org. No set org is even mentioned in the NT. The religions of those days Jesus call horrible names. They earned it. What do you think Jesus would say if he examined the costumed holymen who inhabit the catholic religion? Viper would be too good a name. that would be an insult to all vipers in the world.So what do you want? A relationship with Christ or a cracker in a golden cage.
Nihil Obstat. This work has been approved to be valid and trustworthy as Bosco the Great has examined it for errors.
Bosco, I’m curious, to whom is Jesus speaking to and what is the context when he says, “19l I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.* Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
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hes talking to all of the born again.
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No, he’s not. He’s speaking to Peter’s faith, and that of the faith of the Apostles. Nice try, though.
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The born again are also apostles.
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No, they are not. There is a hierarchy that you refuse to grasp. There were three positions held – bishop, priest and deacon. It’s only in the fever swamp that such things got changed. The laity have their role, but they are not apostles at all. That is passed by the laying of hands.
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Jesus says we are all brothers. Your religion says that only a select few ordained by the CC are saints. The NT says all born again are saints. Your religion has robbed you of your status as saints. You unsaved aren’t saints but your religion has convinced you that you wont become a saint. A hard rain is going to fall on that wicked cult of personality.
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Furthermore what about the Armenian Church, the Orthodox, and Coptic Churches? Do they have any valid claims? Or are they idolaters as well? Or do you just have disdain for Catholics because you don’t come into contact with these folks?
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Growing up I was surrounded by catholics, but I never gave it any thought. I even went to a few Xmas eve masses. Thanks for asking. My girlfriend was raised catholic, I almost married a catholic girl way back, I live with a catholic, who doesn’t practice anymore but still believes in their witchcraft.
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Are high altar protestants misguided too?
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About the Armienian and Copts and what else, yes, they are a bunch of Hooey, as my grandpa put it. Say, so tell me, …..they all cant be correct…so which ever one you subscribe to, you are saying the others are no good, other wise you would have joined them….is that not so?
I don’t know what a high altar prot is, but just like their catholic counterparts, they still walk out the doors of their services still unsaved. One has to come to Jesus himself and ask him to show himself. Im not saying you cant do that at a church service. One can cry out to Him anywhere at any time.
I don’t use the term misguided. Either one is saved or one isn’t. Let me tell you what misguided is….praying to a queen of heaven while on your knees befor some statue of a female. Come to my misguided site and see some folks doing just that. Sign in and become a member. Glad to have you aboard..
cherrybombcoutour.blogspot.com
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Jesus had his boys standing around him. He told that to all of them. It also goes for all of the saved even todays. When I was set forth as a missionary, I only once shook the dirt from off my shoes when I left a town. Ive met some real winners, but ive never loosed someone from heaven…..yet.
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Well Happy New Year Bosco! You’ve outdone yourself. Here’s my thoughts: Bosco quotes Revelation 3:20 – “if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”
Ginny quotes John 6:56 “Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood remains in Me, and I in him.” These verses explain each other.
In the first verse used quite often here by Bosco, we find God asking man to hear His voice and open the “door,” that is their hearts and minds to the fullness of the truth as revealed by God just prior to his death on the cross. Yet that is not what Bosco means by this at all.
I’ll continue. God told everyone in the Bread of Life discourse that they needed to eat him to abide in him. All the people turned away from him at this point, thinking he’d gone mad and was asking the Jews to become cannibals or something. Peter was asked if he desired to leave as well, but he answered “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.” Jn. 6:68. And so he does. His body and his blood reside in the Blessed Sacrament for all ages. It is through this means that we remain in him and he in us, just as he said in the above verse. God does not lie. He meant every word he said. In the verse quoted by our lovely little clown friend, he asks us to let him in by opening the door. The way he means for this to happen is found in the Catholic church, namely in our Eucharistic Lord. He comes to “sup with us” and we with him. I find it odd that Bosco doesn’t see the obvious connection to eating in this familiar quote from Revelation. It is about EATING silly man. It ain’t rocket science. God wants you to eat not only with him, but to actually EAT HIM. If today you hear his voice, harden not your hearts. If it is about eating perhaps that is exactly what he wants you to do.
If you are at Mass and thirty other persons are around you, each just having consumed Jesus in the Eucharist, don’t you think it a bit obvious that we are all eating together with and through him?
I almost want to laugh about how obvious the name “Revelation” is given to the book Bosco quotes. Most folks of the Protestant persuasion see this revelation of God to us of himself as our Eucharistic Lord run from it and spend the rest of their lives trying to prove the obvious wrong. The most common method is plain ole denial. It works, but not to their advantage. Sad, really. I’d much prefer they changed their minds and see him as he is, or rather as he said he’d be for all ages until the end of time. He abides with us through his church, through his sacraments and most intimately in communion with us in the Eucharist. It is a foretaste of Heaven not to be missed.
Bosco’s favorite quote is all about communing with our Blessed Lord in those few holy moments we enjoy here on earth in Communion. It truly is a feast. Yet it passes so quickly. I often pray St. Pio’s prayer, “Stay with me Lord,” http://padrepiodevotions.org/stay-with-me-lord/ I love my God and I love being with him in holy communion. It is the most awesome experience a person can have this side of the daisies and he meant it to be that. I get all lost in him. It is the most intimate thing I’ve ever known and I’ve only just begun getting to know him this way and he me. All he desires for me is heaven and he gives me a bit of it here on earth all in a very short time span while I quietly rest in him on my knees in my pew after walking up in the communion line and receiving him. A few holy moments with Jesus, true God and true man, who humbled himself to become a piece of bread to feed me with himself.
Yes, Bosco, he really does knock, but the door he’s knocking on could actually be those pretty golden Tabernacle doors just beyond the altar in your parish around the corner. He wants out of that place of rest and into your heart once again. You are only one good Confession away from your first holy communion in a long, tiresome time. He stands at the door and knocks, open and dine with him, on him, in him and through his priesthood.
God bless and Happy New Year everyone. Ginnyfree.
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“The way he means for this to happen is found in the Catholic church, namely in our Eucharistic Lord”
I knew this was coming. The only way to salvation is in the catholic church. Well, of course you believe that or you wouldn’t be in the CC By the way happy new yr and hope you had a nice Christmas..
“If you are at Mass and thirty other persons are around you, each just having consumed Jesus in the Eucharist, don’t you think it a bit obvious that we are all eating together with and through him? ”
One day , awhile ago, I asked good brother Chalcedon if eating the communion wafer made one born again and going to heaven. He said no it doesn’t.
“Yes, Bosco, he really does knock, but the door he’s knocking on could actually be those pretty golden Tabernacle doors just beyond the altar in your parish around the corner.”
If anyman say lo, here is Christ or lo, there is Christ , believe it not.
Good sister ginny, its nice that you desire the Lord. My advice to you is…don’t trust a man in a costume to dish out Jesus to you. You have to ask Jesus for yourself for him to reveal himself to you. Me, personally, I asked him in just to shut this girl up and get away from her. I really believed what she was saying about Jesus and all, but I thought that was the end of it. Im here to tell you that a new spirit is dropped in you, one that knows Jesus first hand. Everyone born again knows the same person….Jesus, and you realize what is of god and what is of the devil and men.
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Ginny, if Fr. Z had read this, he would most certainly give you one of his “Gold Star of the Day” awards. Good job.
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Of course a costume will applaud someone who tows the catholic line.
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Bosco, I was truly born again in the waters of Baptism on April 6, 1996 at the Easter Vigil. I died with Christ and rose with Christ to new life as I passed from this world into his kingdom when the priest serving that night poured the water over my head and repeated the 2,000-year-old formula, “I baptise you in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit,” etc. I was born again thru water and Spirit, for it is Christ’s sacrifice upon the Cross that paid my debt to him for my sins and it is applied to my soul at the time I am Baptized.
All sins are forgiven then, both Original and personal. Nothing remains. He gave me a share in both his kingdom and his life thru my Baptism, for every Sacrament is an encounter with the living God. Thus I was born again, as the Scriptures state. He is the God of the living and not the dead and His holy spirit animates those waters and stirs itself into my soul so deeply, it leaves an indelible mark there that will remain unto the next life and beyond. It is that Baptismal grace that joins me to the Church and its head through all times. I am alive in the spirit who lives in his Sacraments.
Only my sins stop me from living the fullness of this grace and should I sin mortally, I am dead in my sins and trespasses as the Scripture describe. Only his blood shed for me on that Cross can revive my failing spirits and that can only be had in either perfect contrition, which if truly received brings with it a dire need and desire for the actual sacrament, or it can be had with sufficient contrition in the actual sacrament of Penance and once my satisfaction has been given, I am alive again in Christ to live as he wills.
It is a wonderful life. It is the only life Christ wills. Read prayerfully his words found in the entire 17th chapter of St. John’s Gospel. He willed that we all be one. You work against that unity, and so you work against him. Not a good spot to be in when your time comes.
God bless. Ginnyfree.
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“Bosco, I was truly born again in the waters of Baptism on April 6, 1996 at the Easter Vigil. I died with Christ and rose with Christ to new life ”
Only a friend will tell you your zipper is down. Good sister, now don’t take this wrong…..if you knew Jesus personally, why do you attend a church/religion that has its flock bowing down befor images made by human hands? Its no giant secret. From one end of the old test to the other, god is constantly chastising the Hebrews for images and idols. There is a weak excuse floating around that cathols don’t think the images are gods so its OK. The Hebrews knew the idols were just a representation also. God sent the whole kit and kaboodle off into captivity for idolatry. No no no. No one who knows Jesus would be a part of that graven image festival called the CC.
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We’ve been down this road before here Bosco. I’m not willing to go there again. Got any pics of your loved ones? If you could afford it, would you love someone enough to have a statue carved of them? What about the Lincoln Memorial? Are all those tourists worshiping an idol? Stop already. You know your claim is ridiculous. Gdo bless. Ginnyfree.
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A photograph is a direct image of a human that is not made by human hands. Licoln memorial is and idol, but people shouldn’t bow befor it. You can make all the excuses you like. The old test and God has nothing nice to say about images used in worship.
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I read the headline, and thought “Good, my dear Bruvver Bosco is leaving. Don’t let the door hit you on your way out.”
But it was not to be. Just another daft piece showing that Bosco is right and millions of Christians throughout the ages are wrong.
Seriously, Bosco, the absolute minimum that you can do to avoid that lake of fire with the sign “reserved for a clown” is to get yourself baptised. Any progress with that one yet?
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Good bruvver Eccles, May the ground open up and swallow you, like a sinkhole in Florida.
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A long time ago in an argument far from this current one, our dear little clown revealed that he is actually a Baptized Catholic who has fallen away and evolved into the Bosco we know and love today. I got as far as asking him how long it has been since his last confession and then he stopped responding to my wheedling and nagging. It is for a good cause though, to get the clown out of his suit and back into his Sunday best warming a pew for the first time in probably about 30 years or so in his local parish AFTER a very good confession of course. He has unfortunately grown fond of blasphemy as a form of evangelisation. This will not turn out well for him if he fails to turn back from his particular brand of insanity. Does this help? God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Yes Ginny, at least he has a chance because of baptism. I have a good retired doctor friend that told me he had been baptized. At that point I stopped trying to convert his atheistism and told him that at least he had a chance. God would see to that. His anger only increased.
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Were you trying to convert him to Catholicism or just make him believe in god.? Its a tough sell to get someone to join the CC, what with all of its high profile corruption and pedophilia.
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I was born and raised prot. Ive never been to a confession. Never. Ever. I thought everyone knew that. And Lord willing, I will never in the future go into a confession booth.
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Bosco, are you fibbing now or were you fibbing back then? Pleeeeeeeeease don’t make me look it up here at AATWT. You admitted more than once to being a stray Catholic. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Good sister, im going to say for you to look it up. You could be mistaken me for someone else. Ive done that befor. If I was a ex cathol, id be even more intolerant when im attacked by cathols. You heard me say my girlfriend is an ex cathol. I say that all the time. Im proud as punce to relive that story. I even turned them on to calvary chapel, to which her kids love and attend. Her kids have never seen the inside of a Romanish temple. Even though she dropped that phoney religion in a matter of one second and never looked back, she still believes in some of its witchcraft.
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The least convincing part is your playing fast and loose with Jesus’ words. Why does he change Simon’s name? Peter is the latinised version of the Aramaic ‘kefa’ which means ‘rock’ – so, in changing Simon’s name to ‘rock’ and saying ‘on this rock I build my church’, Jesus is saying he builds his church on Simon, now renamed rock.
A tip, when you find yourself explaining away the plain sense of the words of Jesus, you are in a cult. Still, Gid loves you and his church is open to you.
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No doubt your religion is built on a man.
If you read the whole paragraph , it centers on Jesus neing the Messiah, not on Peter being the Pope. The daily news confirms that your religion is built on a human.
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Jesus said what he said. You build your religion on a feeling you say you have. Sand or Rock? You are welcome to the sand. The Rock stands as it has and as the real Jesus said it would.
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Bosco, if you get your theology from that toilet paper, ooooooops, a mean news paper……………um you’re in it up to your hips wading through that sewer. I’d send you back to your Bible, but you can’t seem to read it rightly. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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I take scripture literally. A few paragtaphs up you said Jesus is knocking on the catholic church door. Id call that adding stuff that isn’t there. Hes knocking at YOUR door. You said that you experience Jesus when you go to mass service and stare at the wafer in a golden cage. God says…..where is this house you would build for me? I could go on for yrs exposing the anyi bible practices of your beloved religion. At least the prots don’t have all that baggage. They just preach the bible as is. But still the followers walk in unsaved and walk out unsaved, same as the catholic devotees.
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Bosco
Do you pray?
One of the most profound prayers in the New Testament is that of the blind man in St Mark’s Gospel.
“Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me.” The tax gatherer in Jesus’ parable of the publican and the Pharisee is virtually the same prayer. “God, be merciful to me, a sinner.” (St Luke)
King David prayed the same prayer, “Be merciful unto me, O God, be merciful unto me.” (Psalm 57:1.)
We are all are all blind in some way, none of us is without sin and therefore the prayer for mercy is the heart of our relationship with the Lord.
The Eucharist begins with the prayer for mercy.
Lord have mercy, Christ have mercy, Lord have mercy.
The Lord’s life that culminated in his offering on the Cross was the most complete prayer ever performed. He prays from the Cross in an agony so intense that his death is a total act of love. He prays at Emmaus as the Easter bread is broken and on the shores of the lake when he prepares breakfast and the disciples rush to him in disbelief and faith. In Jesus we meet the mercy of God and the power of his crucified love.
Christian prayer by its very nature centres on Christ in the Church’s offering of the Eucharist.
Our personal prayer life is an extension of the Eucharist. Tht’s how I see it as a traditional Anglican.
Others may have a different understanding. The way we approach God is significantly influenced by our background and those who have taught us the faith.
We live in times bombarded with words that have become almost valueless. Let us use few words in prayer. We don’t want to bore the Lord. “Jesus mercy” is enough. Prayed in combination with one’s breathing the Jesus prayer is a powerful way of experiencing the presence of God. Breathing is the most important function of our bodies. Breath is life and Jesus is life. Breathing is a kind of listening. Close your eyes and be attentive to your breathing. What a mercy it is to be able to breathe. I watched my father struggling to breathe as he was dying. He could only just speak.
Prayer is a great mystery. It emerges from the secret depths of our hearts and assures us that the Lord is present. We are convinced that we can reach God in the silence of our souls. The Jesus prayer is a way of listening to God. Setting aside time during the day and repeating the prayer often moves us into silence. “Be still and know that I am God.”
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Yes I pray. Not enough though. I thank him for all hes done and is doing for me and being who he is.
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This is a long thread and I’ve struggled through it.
Some of my family are Quakers and I’m reminded of a profound comment by John Woolman
John Woolman, an American Quaker who was born in 1720 wrote these words.
“There is a principle which is pure, placed in the human mind, which in different places and ages hath different names; it is however pure and proceeds from God. It is deep and inward, confined to no forms of religion, nor excluded from any, where the heart stands in perfect sincerity. In whomsoever this takes root and grows, of what nation so ever, they become brethren in the best sense of that expression.”
It was in his dealings with the Indians, whom he loved, and Negro slaves, whose emancipation he ardently desired, that his true greatness shines out. Even in a time when Quakers kept – and bought and sold – slaves, Woolman was faithful in his commitment to freeing them.
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Malcolm, it seems Mr. Woolman was elaborating upon the principles of natural law. It is an interesting spin on this most basic of human guidance. But he goes too far in calling it pure or of the spirit or above religion or perfect. That which is natural in the lowest form of human guidance. Get this wrong and you’ve lost all understanding of what natural law actually is. He is of the age that tried to elevate the natural man to mythic proportions. They worked to shame the sophisticates of their age with the bliss of the ignorant. Some went so far as to bring back Indians from the New World to put them display in their “natural states” to show how “pure” they were. It really was a circus. Just some thoughts. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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ginnyfree
Woolman was very much a man of his times. However with all the convolutions and arguments on this thread, I reckon he has a point.
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Malcolm X . Wasn’t he a black dude who was a nation of Islam leader? Just trying to interject some humor in this war of words. (;-C
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To all: This morning after writing here, I left for Mass. Our discussion and Bosco’s little essay proved timely as you’ll see. The readings today were exceptional, as are all the readings in this holy time of year. The first reading was from 1 John 2:18-21. It goes like this: “Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that the antichrist was coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. Thus we know this is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number. But you have the anointing that comes from the Holy One, and you all have knowledge. I write to you not because you do not know the truth but because you do, and because every lie is alien to the truth.”
As I was hearing it, I prayed for poor ole Bosco, that he not be truly of the type described in this short passage, those who St. John describes as “not really of our number.” Yes, Bosco is rather bold in his adoption of anti-Christianity as a religious outlook. He speaks quite a bit of their irksome rhetoric. He is one version of the types of persons described in the passage of St. John as a warning to the faithful and as an instruction on how to view them within the schema of a Christain worldview. For those who have eyes to see, these things are too obvious to be ignored.
I pray that Bosco isn’t fully one of those St. John describes and puts away his sinful ways and follies and returns to the one true Church before he passes from this life to his judgment. I have seen him shamed into some attrition by Chalcedon, who should get a medal along with Dave, for all they did to help poor Bosco a while back. But attrition can fade away if not acted upon. If acted upon, more actual grace can follow and true contrition grow and bear fruit. Attrition can save one from Hell, but it needs to be acted upon. But this is stuff from the Church’s teachings on Moral Theology, not a popular subject among most. All this takes a movement of the will towards Christ. Without it, the little sorrow that is attrition will wane and the person will return as is outlined by St. Peter in his second letter, 2 Pt. 2:22, “What is expressed in the true proverb has happened to them, ‘The dog returns to its own vomit,’ and ‘A bathed sow returns to wallowing in the mire.'” (also see Proverbs chap. 26) It’s all true. It is the Word of God. Poor Bosco has a whole lot against him and needs everyone here to pray for him. I did this morning at Mass. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Well thank you for praying for me good sister ginny. I can use any and all prayers.
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By the way good sister…anti Christ means , another or substitute Christ. Anti means another in greek. The word antichrist has been used to describe the Devil incarnate.
But where do we find subdtitute Christs? Well, the only place I know that advertises that it has a stand in Christ is your beloved catholic church. Not only is the top man a substitute (Vicar) of Christ, all the pretty little priests are called “little Christs” This is something that is not up for debate.
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Actually, Wayne, here are you arguing that your particular reading of the gospels stands in substitution for the actual words of Christ – that sounds like ‘Anti-Christ’ to me.
And ‘Vicar’ means ‘bloke who stands in while the boss is away’, not ‘substitute’.
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A stand in is a substitute you blithering idiot. Happy new yr.
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You really do not get it Bosco.
Christ, as God, has immediate authority [the only uncontested type of authority as it belongs to the nature of the person Himself] because He is God and has authority in His own Person and Nature.
There is another type of authority however called mediate authority. It is the authority that is received by the direction and appointment of an immediate authority [in this case Christ] to handle His business and to rule and judge in His absence. By granting this mediate authority, God Himself has promised to back-up and accept the judgment and the rulings of this mediate authority [why else would you give it?]: what you bind or loose will be bound and loosed in heaven as well.
That is who the Vicar of Christ is: the mediate authority that is given the privilege to act in the physical world, carrying on what Christ did by His very Presence here on earth even though He has now ascended to His Father in heaven – – – and we have His promise that what the Vicar binds is bound in heaven and what he looses will be loosed in heaven [note the Gospel].
So when you use a metaphor you might want to understand that in the order of a Kingly metaphor repleat with a Prime Minister or Ambassador is closest to what is being asserted and even surpasses the metaphorical ideas that are put forth. The metaphor for the Vicar of Christ must be extended to analogy . . . having logic as well as symbolic unity to the reality that is being discussed. It is appropriate in our understanding of what Christ did and promised and all the pieces of the puzzle fall nicely in place if you do this. If not you are left to stare at a few odd pieces and disregard the pieces you are not interested in. You need to have a long think about this some day and pray over it for you are like a horse with blinders on and see only a small piece of what is the full revelation of Christ.
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Ive been told this enough when I ask the question, …Is the succession of Popes unbroken? The answer is always yes, even though the Chair has been bought and sold and acquired by murder and 3 Chairs at once and the vilest of men on the planet sitting in it. And im told that it doesn’t matter how perverted the Holy Father can be, that god speaks infallibly thru him.
If one swears by a particular religion, one must justify anything it does. The Mormons say that there are 2 camps…one is for polygamy and one is the true Mormon against polygamy. That’s because it got embarrassing and half of them wanted to distance themselves from the mother religion.
I don’t belong to a religion to where I have to explain away its murderous past and perverted present. Jesus said to follow him.
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He who says he is without sin is lying. Are you saying you are without sin, Bosco? We are fallen, we rise through Christ, but the idea that anyone is without sin is nonsense. If you think everyone who attends your Calvary Chapel is sinless, then you are a fool. If you admit they are sinners, then you are part of a religion with sinful men and women in it.
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Bosco, God turns what seems evil at some point in time into a good. All those horrible things happening around the papacy and even some real cads gaining the chair, all serve to prove one thing: the gates of even the netherworld have not prevailed. Even after all that trouble, we still have a Pope, a visible head of a very visible Church that is one, holy catholic and most certainly apostolic. 2,000 years worth of enduring in good times and bad. How old is Calvary Chapel and what trials and tribulations has the good Lord seen that place thru so far? Maybe a leak on a rainy day that thankfully didn’t ruin all the hymnals in the closet? Gee, a real act of God that is. Hello?????
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We are all sinners, and those saved who attend calvary chapel will be the first to admit. The playing field is level.
Yes good sister ginny, the calvary chapel I attend hasn’t had many if any trials and tribulation. Maybe a leak in the roof. Its staffed by actual born again folks. They don’t have the problems that a org full of people who use graven images do.
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When a teacher is sick and stays home, who is called to replace him or her?
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The supply teacher?
I know what you’re getting at, Wayne, but that simile doesn’t work for a British English native audience.
You’d have been better to try a sporting metaphor: what do we call someone who we call off the bench to play, say striker, if Didier Drogba is unable to play? A substitute. Does that person pretend to be Drogba? No. He tries to play as a striker, to the best of his abilities; he will never be Drogba, but will serve in his place until Drobga is able to return to the pitch.
It’s a good simile, in that Peter, like Eliachim before him, was called to serve while the boss was away, but never pretended to be the boss.
Which is why clinging to the word ‘substitute’ doesn’t really work – it has rather more meanings than you’re trying to allege.
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Your explanation ordinarily would sound good, to someone other than me. I believe no man can sit here in place of Christ. By the way, did you get my question to you? Does water baptism make one saved? What say ye?
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You’ve got to be kidding Bosco. “Antichrist” means exactly what it means – against Christ, against God. Opposed as in “the opposer” which if you follow the Hebrew etymology of the word satan, it comes the opposer or adversary.
I am not fooled Bosco, with your clever little flip of the words: “another or substitute Christ.” That is you Bosco calling the devil, the adversary, satan, the antichrist, a substitute for Christ. If the devil is your god Bosco, and you have truly tried to convince others that the antichrist is a good thing, you are sunk. Done for. Over with. Worship the devil and blaspheme the Church all you want. Your reward will most certainly be Hell for all eternity.
Ginnyfree.
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What time is it where you are good sister ginny? That will explain why you are drunken. Anti means another in greek. No charge for the lesson.
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Bosco, I know it is useless to show you something in writing that proves you wrong, simply because you read the same Bible as everyone else here yet fail to see what is actually written on the pages, but I will try.
The definition of “anti” found with the Merrriam-Webster Dictionary available on line is thus: Definition of anti-1 a : of the same kind but situated opposite, exerting energy in the opposite direction, or pursuing an opposite policy b : one that is opposite in kind to
2 a : opposing or hostile to in opinion, sympathy, or practice b : opposing in effect or activity
3: serving to prevent, cure, or alleviate
4: combating or defending against
antiacademic
So there ya go. The truth is that anti-Christ means opposed to Christ, opposite of Him, i.e. the devil and all those in alignment with him.
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Good sister, may I ask what level of education did you complete? Just wondering.
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Good sister ginny, let me explain something to you. What im saying is that calling the incarnate Devil the antichrist is not really the correct term. But, its the term people use and recognize. So, what are we to do. Semantics is really a harmless thing. You can call me anything you want…..just don’t call me late for dinner.
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Bosco, the devil cannot incarnate. He can only possess. He has no creative powers either, that’s why those in league with him are so uncreative and can only memorize useless arguments to repeat by rote. As soon as those who rely on this anti-Christian garbage reach its limits and are asked to think for themselves, they usually fail. It requires creativity to think beyond rote answers.
And as was expected, you have failed to admit and accept that your measly attempt at deflection has fallen flat. You haven’t responded to the proofs that you are wrong. You never do. Why? Because you’ve been robbed of your creative ability by an entity that lacks the ability to create anything. Left to fend for yourself, you fail.
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If I don’t respond it could mean I didn’t see it. Yesterday I was too tired to go on line after work. I wonder why none of your fellow papist never come in and correct you when you miss the mark. The Man of Sin is supposed to be Satan, I think. I could be wrong. We don’t give it much thought. We wont be here for that. Most likely, by the way you sound, you will not only be here but join his army.
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Interseting you don’t want to give your education credentials. I don’t give mine because they don’t matter. But I ask you because you talk like a retard.
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Oh Wayne, here you go again: you very, very clearly do subscribe to a religion; and a religion of men at that.
You quote a couple of verses from the Apocalypse, but leave out the quotation from the Gospels, the very words of our Lord and Saviour:
How do you reconcile your religion’s creed that we just need to ‘open the door’ with the very, very clear and direct words of our Lord himself? No doubt someone at a conference gave you a couple of proof texts to deploy in this situation, but that is an answer derived from human (or more likely demonic) ingenuity; the words of scripture don’t support your assertions, which leaves you relying on your own false, heretical religion.
Jesus Himself tells us how to know him in John’s gospel and here you are arguing against it.
The seven churches mentioned in the Apocalypse are all in Asia Minor and are not along a single trade route (we know where these places are, for heaven’s sake! some of them are on the coast, others are inland, but none of them is particularly on a route through any of the others). It is a tradition of men that they are just ‘groups of believers along a trade route’ – there is nothing in the gospels or the epistles to support such a suggestion; this is an idea that you have received from your own version of the ‘costume holy men’ (admittedly their costume is a cheap pair of dungarees from Rural King).
And Jesus may well have said that unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God, but he also said that unless you eat his flesh and drink his blood you will have no life in you. Gotta take the whole thing in context.
Let’s face it, Wayne, if you are right (i.e. that there is nothing more to salvation than being ‘born again’ and knowing our Lord as your saviour) all of your Catholic interlocutors are saved. If you are wrong and you really do need to be baptised and receive our Lord’s body and blood (as He commanded) then you are well and truly up a certain creek without a paddle.
And let’s go back to Nicodemus:
That sounds awfully like a commandment to be baptised (which would mean joining the Church) to me.
And here you are again, telling us in words of mortal men, who are long dead and damned to hell, that the gospel should say something different from what it actually says: “It should say that Jesus charged them that they should tell no man that Peter is the first Pope, the head of all believers.”
Only a person who made an idol of a particular English translation of the gospel would be so naïve as to claim that the text here has any other meaning than Peter was being chosen to stand in the place of Eliachim: to be the Vicar of our Lord.
In closing, our Lord, Jesus Christ, ordered everyone to join the Church through baptism, anointed Peter his vicar on Earth and told us that reception of communion was the only way to salvation; any cult which says otherwise is just another religion of men. Or perhaps you have some deposit of holy Tradition to draw on to justify your opinions (oh, the irony!!)
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Bravo! Bravo! Play it again Sam. Happy New Year and God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Its nice that you dare about the ways if god, but still you need to meet the Lord.
Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
His Words are the Bread of life and are His flesh. You idolatrous cathols think a cracker is going to save you because you refuse to have a personal relation with Him. You substitute a relation with a mouth full of crackers.
“The seven churches mentioned in the Apocalypse are all in Asia Minor and are not along a single trade route ”
They are along a travel route or road, something like that.
” the words of scripture don’t support your assertions, which leaves you relying on your own false, heretical religion.”
My words are straight from scripture. I know jesus personally. I don’t have to guess at anything.
“Gotta take the whole thing in context.”
Is that why you call costume holymen Father? Isnt it time for you to grab your beads and repeat some prayer to a queen of heaven?
” that there is nothing more to salvation than being ‘born again’ and knowing our Lord as your saviour)”
It easy and hard to explain. We know him and were with Him in heaven. We just don’t know Him as savior, we know Him.
“That sounds awfully like a commandment to be baptised (which would mean joining the Church) to me.”
How do you get joining a church out of the command to be baptized? And why would anyone join that snake pit called the catholic cult of personality?
“And here you are again, telling us in words of mortal men, who are long dead and damned to hell, that the gospel should say something different from what it actually says: “It should say that Jesus charged them that they should tell no man that Peter is the first Pope, the head of all believers.”
Ive known you for along time good brother Raven, and ive always know that you are thick as a Brick. I was making fun of your idolatrous religion when I said that, you ninny.
” and told us that reception of communion was the only way to salvation; any cult which says otherwise is just another religion of men”
Listen up good brother…..I didn’t eat a cracker or bow befor a costume holyman or get sodomised, er eh, join the catholic church, and I was changed and born again. Take that and stick it in your craw.
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Now, Bosco, let us spend some time on your answer to this, because it is a perfect example of your inadequacies and failings.
Raven quotes St John to you, where Jesus says that unless we eat his body and drink his blood, we shall not have life. A whole slew of people who were there walked away and left him. They would not have done that if they had thought he was referring metaphorically to his words. They, unlike you, knew Jesus and heard him and they rejected him. His Church takes his words literally and at Communion we receive his body and his blood. We do not seek, as you have to, to explain away what he meant; we believe him. You claim to, but you have to keep explaining he did not mean what those who were there thought he said; that alone should give you pause.
Having failed to say why Raven is wrong, or even engage with him, you immediately resort to insulting his religion. This is the act of a thug, not someone who knows Jesus.
How do we get joining the Church out of a call to be baptised? That would be because the Church has always followed the words of Jesus and required believers to be baptised. You, if memory serves me correctly, have never been baptised. You should be if you are what you say you are.
Jesus renamed Simon ‘Rock’ and said ‘on this Rock I will build my Church’, and yet you do not believe Jesus because it does not suit you.
Then, again, you resort to insults.
Ask yourself, if you are capable of any self-reflection, how this comes across to people? The sort answer is that you look and sound like the worst sort of anti-Catholic bigot. If this is your intention, you have succeeded beyond measure. If you hope to convince anyone you are a follower of Jesus, then you are having not a great deal of success. If you are trying to refute Catholicism, you are a hopeless failure as you cannot even begin to engage in argument.
There are those here who would have me ban you, I shan’t because Jesus wants you saved, and eventually, you will be – that’s what keeps driving you here, time after time.
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Jesus said as oft as ye do this remember me. And he broke bread and handed it out. He said this is my body broken for you. I reference your religion because it is what has convinced you that a man in a costume says some incantations and the wafer becomes Jesus flesh. But it doesn’t become his flesh if I do it with a friend in a public park or at home.
No, im not anti catholic. Im anti unsaved. Catholic is something that lives in the mind. Its nothing one can touch. Its an abstract idea. I don’t hate fairy tales or comic book characters. Calling me a bigot helps, in your mind, to dilute my message.
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If you read the Bible as a whole rather than cherry-picking bits out of context, you might see a connection between Jesus founding a Church and the Apostles and their successors giving communion. But you don’t do that, your man-made religion is based on you thinking you understand a book written by followers of Jesus for followers of Jesus. You dismiss two thousand years of worshipping him and thinking about him because they don’t fit with your feelings.
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At least you are spiritually minded. That’s rite, I don’t have sympathy for religions. And I didn’t want to be a holy roller. He took me. But he quided me to others that had the same thing happen to them. Why didn’t he quide me to the catholic faith? When people get born again they leave their religion.
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The question you might ask yourself is why not one other Christian here, not even Rob, thinks about Jesus the way you do? There are many spirits in this world Bosco, and evil ones don’t come flat out and say “I am an evil spirit, follow me”. If you have ever been involved in the occult in your past, you are in danger from evil spirits. Have you had any such involvement?
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Good brother Rob is with me on most issues. I have reserved judgment on him because, of his accounts of his exploits.+
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You have failed to answer his questions. You keep replacing Jesus’s words with the words of Bosco. What’s to ‘be with’?
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its like you guys are in a trance. You keep accusing me of not believing its Jesus body. I never said it wasn’t.You just keep slamming me with that. I guess it makes you feel that my message is incorrect , in your mind. Im doing my job to warn you. Others will plant, others will water, others will harvest. I warn people.
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You keep saying it is symbolic and anyone can do it – that’s not what Scripture says. But why believe the Bible when you have Bosco?
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Well, if you believe water baptism does something to the participant, that is your right. You say it brings one into the catholic religion. Well, ok. Everyone has their belief. But I got born again without water. That’s all I know for sure. And jesus never waterbaptized anyone. The apostles water baptized whenever possible. Paul only water dunked 3 people. I think.
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And yet there Jesus goes, daring to contradict Bosco. He says we must be born again by water and the Spirit. Bosco on the other hand says water baptism is for show. Jesus or Bosco? I’m going with Jesus again.
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Hell, the batteries went out on my keyboard. I lost what I said. let me remember.
I said water baptism is showing that we now have a new life, a life for Christ. I gave it some thought because all you works religion people got all upset. Dang, these batteries are jive. That’s what I get for buying cheap batteries. wterrrrrrrrrrrsouward sign
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Who are these ‘works religion people’ Bosco? They don’t exist outside your prejudice and imagination. Cite me one authoritative document from the Church that states ‘we are saved by works’. You can’t, and if you can’t, you have just peddled another lie. What sort of witness is that Bosco?
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water is outward sign. You Pharisees live by your rituals. That’s because you don’t know the Lord. And you cant fathom someone who does know Him. You have these 7 sacrements to do. Your religion says to do these to be saved. The bottom line is…..the priests of your religion are the only ones to benefit from Catholicism. They have a lifelong job and money. As long as they keep you believing you have to belong and give your money, they have an income. I don’t slight you all because you belong. You all really want to do god a service. But the reality is, there is no Catholicism. Its a money making scheme to give these lazy bums an income. And they live lavish and have no intentions of giving it up.
Jesus stands at the door and knocks.
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Again, proof? Where is the proof that I, or any other Catholic ‘live by your rituals’? You have none, it is another of your smoke-screens which goes up when you have lost the argument. Yes, I do know the Lord, I meet him in prayer every day, and every time I take communion. My religion does not say these things will save me. It says that the blood of Jesus will save me. And as to the idea it is all a money-making scam, that’s the oldest one in the book. Sure, people go get martyred and live their lives serving the poor in far away places because they want to get rich. Really, is that all you have, old prejudices? One say you will have to face it, you are wrong about the Church, you keep changing Jesus’ words to substitute your own, and when challenged you throw out smoke to cover your failure.
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Incidentally, what is your reply to those who say they knock on the door but Jesus never answers?
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Forgive me, but I am going to put this a little less gently than Chalcedon: Wayne, you are selectively choosing which word of our Lord to believe – if you have a ‘spirit inside of you’ it is of the devil and not of God.
You say:
“His Words are the Bread of life and are His flesh.”
But that’s not what Jesus said, our Lord said:
Our Lord tells us that He, Himself, is the bread of life. He doesn’t say “my words are the bread of life” He says something completely different to that.
And then in St Matthew, at the last supper, our Lord explains to us how we can partake in His sacred body and blood:
And the parallel verse in St Mark:
And St Luke:
You know these verses, you being a ‘Bible believin’ Christian’ an all. But here you are telling us that they do not mean what their plain words say: we shouldn’t read these words literally; instead we should ignore these express, unambiguous words from our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, and listen to your ‘spirit’ instead.
And here you are telling me that my relationship with our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, is somehow inferior to yours. To be blunt again: how the heck would you know? You’ve never received God in the way that He commanded you to receive Him; you’ve never received the baptism that He commanded you to receive. All you’ve got is your ‘spirit’, which could have come from Moloch or from the booze aisle at Walmart for all I know.
Moving on.
I said: “The seven churches mentioned in the Apocalypse are all in Asia Minor and are not along a single trade route ”
You said: ‘They are along a travel route or road, something like that.’
And I reply “Rubbish!” – of the seven churches, three are on the shore of western Anatolia, the other four are inland; if you really stretched it, you could argue that, if you landed at Attalia (modern day Antalya) Laodecia would be on the way to Ephesus and then you could make out a route via Smyrna (now Izmir) to Pergamos, but you’d have to take a huge detour over very difficult terrain to visit Thyatira, Sardis or Philadelphia as part of the same trip.
In other words, not part of a trade route. Your ’spirit’ is lying to you again.
And you ain’t got squat to back up that claim that the churches were just gatherings of believers. Whereas I can point to the writings of the Christians of the first and second centuries to gainsay you.
Moving on again.
You say: “How do you get joining a church out of the command to be baptized? And why would anyone join that snake pit called the catholic cult of personality?”
I say: you join the Church by being baptised. That’s all there is to it. If you choose to be confirmed later, you can share fully in the sacramental life of the Church. If you do not get yourself confirmed you cannot share in the sacramental life of the Church and can never truly know our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.
And finally.
You say “Listen up good brother…..I didn’t eat a cracker or bow befor a costume holyman or get sodomised, er eh, join the catholic church”
Which is why you’re still on here telling lies, that you, yourself know to be untrue, and doing the Devil’s work for him. Perhaps when you’re ready to have a dose of truth and actually get to know Jesus you might consider actually following his words instead of pretending that he means something different.
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His Words are the Bread of life and are His flesh.”
But that’s not what Jesus said, our Lord said:
And then you quote this;
“And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life:
Jesus , in the begining of John says he is the Word of god. Jesus is the Word. To eat him and live means to believe his Words. But you think its eating a wafer that saved you. That’s a start. Now you have to ask him to reveal himself.
If you do not get yourself confirmed you cannot share in the sacramental life of the Church and can never truly know our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.
aH, NOW IM STARTING TO APPRECIATE YOU MORE. You are a good follower of your beloved religion, not like some others who say that everyone goes to heaven.If one is to belong to a faith, one should believe everything. No salvation outside the catholic church.
If you ever get born again you would be a great soldier for Christ.
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Bosco, re-read what Raven wrote. Reread what you wrote and honestly ask yourself and answer the question of who sounds as though their answer if firmly Bible-based. You keep exlpaining away what Jesus said, Raven offered you examples of Jesus saying we had to eat his body and drink his blood. You claim this means his words, and yet you can provide not a Bible verse in favour. For a Bible-believing Christians you’re pretty rubbish at using Scripture to support your arguments.
You know that you don’t actually have an argument. It is not a ‘wafer’, Jesus explained it is his body and his blood, and we believe he meant what he said. You, on the other hand, keep having to explain away his words. Ask yourself honestly what it means not to be able ti support your arguments except by telling us Jesus meant what you think he meant, not what he said?
You are standing on the door-step, Bosco, He will receive you if you listen to Him and not your own thoughts.
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And here you are telling me that my relationship with our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, is somehow inferior to yours. To be blunt again: how the heck would you know?
I am under orders to give each man an answer. Since you asked….If you don’t know Jesus personally, you don’t even have a relationship with him. There are no inferior relationships with Jesus. There are tons of things that give away one born again status. Believing the CC is the sole way, or even A way to salvation tips your hat 100%. Sorry bout that my brother. Ask him to show himself to you. Whats there to loose. Don’t take my word for anything. Go to the source.
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Good brother Chalcedon, ill let you in on a secret. I haven’t gotten in on the discussion as to eating Jesus flesh. It doesn’t get anywhere. Jesus broke a loaf of bread and handed it out. Some non cathols will say that if its his real flesh that you guys are cannibals. I don’t agree with that line. Its still bread but its his body because the fullness of the earth is the Lords.. Once you are changed then communion wont be a ritual to you. Its an act of remembrance. The religious rely so much on doing something to appease god. Its a works religion. You cant see that because that’s all you have to go on, is rituals in hopes that they work. Jesus says ye must be born again. Ill say it once more…ask him to show himself and then ask him what is true.
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Again, you don’t believe the Bible. John tells us that when Jesus said we had to eat his body and drink his blood, a whole host of people who knew him walked away. Why do you say communion is a ritual? Again, that’s your prejudice speaking. When I receive him at Communion I know who it is I encounter there. You would not know because you have never been there. How very sad that you discount everyone’s experience except your own. If it was merely a ritual, I would feel nothing. It isn’t, it is receiving him – as he promised. You see, I just follow what Jesus said without having to apply my own excuses.
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No, that is not what I am saying; again, your emotions blind you to what is being said.
What I am saying is that your understanding of who Jesus is conflicts with everything Christians have believed for two thousand years. If you are arrogant enough to think you are right and everyone else is wrong, fine, but everything you write about Jesus shows that whoever it is you think you know, it is not the Jesus who was Incarnate of the Virgin Mary, made man and suffered and died for us.
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If im not mistaken, Ive never said the catholic communion was worthless or bad. Anyone can break bread and remember Jesus sacrifice. But the CC says if I do it at home its invalid. No one pays attention to what the CC thinks but cathols.
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That is not what St Paul says – so again, you replace the Bible with your own views. Your claim to believe the Bible fades – you believe your own interpretation of the Bible and explain away any words which don’t suit your man made religion.
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As soon as I was born again I knew him. That simple. Its fine if you don’t believe that. Too bad I haven’t been able to convince another brother to come in here. There are others out there , you must know.
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You don’t convince anyone when you keep telling us all Jesus meant what you say he meant, not what he said. You are the sole person here unable to see that.
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Geeze Jimminy. You guys really base everything(salvation) on eating Jesus real body. You see, that’s where I strongly condemn those who taught you to think that way. I wonder if the big bad Raven think eating the wafer makes him saved? You, my brother, have said it doesn’t. lets see if we can get good brother(I used to think Raven was a girl) Raven to say if he thinks eating the wafer makes him rite with god and going to heaven.
Hey good brother Raven…what say ye….does eating Jesus body make one born again and heaven bound?
Thanks in advance
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That would be Jesus you are condemning then, because that is what he said (John 6:53): Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.” I believe Jesus, you believe Bosco.
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I believe that 100 % good brother. I believe that more than you do. That is the law and the prophets all rolled into one. That is all there is. There is nothing else and no one else.
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And by the way, happy new year!
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“telling us in words of mortal men, who are long dead and damned to hell, that the gospel should say something different from what it actually says:”
Excuse me I have to sneeze….AAAAAHHHHCardinal NewmanCCHOooooooooo. Uh, must be something in the air.
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This makes less sense even than usual. What’s your beef with Newman? Surely you are not still peddling the lie he was homosexual? There is zero proof, and no reputable Newman scholar believes it. But hey, you read something somewhere that went along with your prejudice, so who cares what men who have spent their lives studying Newman say? Really, is this the best you have got?
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Yeah, its a ridiculous and crazy idea that a catholic priest could be a homer. (;-D
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Oh bury me
on the lone prairie.
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What do you mean by ‘saved’ Bosco?
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I’ll answer for him and for thousands like him: he is SAVED from having to live according to any moral standards and from having to subjugate his will to someone greater than his own ego. He can enjoy as much sin as his body will permit, these are most likely those of the flesh. He can also make a hobby of defying all those who try to live as Christians. I suspect there is also some deep rift in his childhood with a singular person who represented the whole entire Church to him who slapped him on the one cheek and he took it personally instead of turning his cheek as is suggested by Christ when we get put to that particular test. Having flunked that test, he decided to get even. His studied rhetoric is used by many types of personalities, in his case, it provided the means by which he could attack the Church via a few members and gain his satisfaction. It is tiresome and boring. He doesn’t at this point desire Christ nor his peace. He simply wants to cause disturbances. I’m no shrink, but his whole personality is wide open here for observation and it is obvious he has some mental issues that prevent him from moving beyond the confines of his own mind. There ya go Chalcedon. He is SAVED from having to grow up and change himself. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Again, no one said that. You seem to operate in black and white. No one else here does. No one has argued that some Catholic priests are not homosexual, any more than anyone has argued that all catholics go to heaven. You are simply deploying old stereotypes because you’ve run out of arguments. Sadly, you always do this. You get to a point where you might listen, then something tells you to shoot your mouth off, try to rile people, and it will go away. it won’t, the questions are there, you know they are. The Bible says x and you say y. You keep having to explain away what Jesus meant.
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Bosco, I asked you why, in your theology, Christ had to be incarnate as man and to doe on the Cross, and you have never answered that question. Yet, if you are right, and all it takes is for us to open the door when he knocks, then there was no need for the Incarnation or the Crucifixion or the Resurrection, and no need for a Church. Yet the Bible tells us all these things were necessary. The Bible or Bosco-ism? I’ll go, as others here will, with the Bible.
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You are accusing me of running scared and refusing to answer a question. Its like you either tarried at the eggnog or you don’t know me.
Why did god be born and give his life? Ill tell you why. He has rules. People die for their sins. Why…I don’t know. Why doesn’t he just let everyone into heaven? But anyway, He himself came and died for our sins. He was the perfect and last sacrifice. Something the CC tosses in the trash with their demonic resacrificing jesus every gat danged day. How satanic. And you my ideas anti biblical. Well, the unsaved can and will believe anything. I outta know, I was chief among the unsaved at one time.
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The Bible tells us – unlike you it does not take refuge in ‘rules’ but tells us it is because He loves us. You have been told before that we do not ‘resacrifice’ Jesus, but you repeat the lie – why?
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Jesus took our punishment, once and for all. And if your mass service doesn’t resacrifice Jesus over and over again, well then its my mistake. That’s just what I heard goes on there. My apologies, sorta.
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Your Spirit should surely enable you to know truth from lies?
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I don’t put anything past Catholicism. Oh, I remember…its called an unbloody sacrifice. Now I heard that from the catholic radio station Immaculate Heart Radio AM 93 on the dial. Cant tell me they are lying. If you do, im gonna call the station and tell them what you said. (;-D
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It must be hard not understanding English. If we were resacrificing Jesus
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If we were resacrificing Jesus,it would not be an unbloody sacrifice.
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A link which folks might find interesting.
http://www.catholic365.com/article/5781/are-you-saved-.html#
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Forty years ago, when I was still a Protestant, I looked at Catholics with suspicion. Catholicism seemed like a cult that worshiped Mary and idolized statues. I pictured Catholics rattling off memorized prayers as clouds of eerie incense billowed around them, bells rang, and candles illuminated their pagan rituals.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.
Religions.
I got up to get a drink and go to the bathroom and now ive spent 2 hrs in here jabbering. I gotta go back to sleep.
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So, you fantasised a prejudiced version of Christ’s Church and you have never let reality get in the way?
Sleep well.
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That was a quote from the above website. heres another quote;
However, most Protestants we come in contact with simply question if Catholics are Christians, challenging our faith with questions like:
•Have you accepted Christ as your Lord and Saviour?
•Are you saved?
•Have you been born again?
•Are you filled with the Holy Spirit?
http://www.catholic365.com/article/5781/are-you-saved-.html#
Its a really good site, for catholics. Its futile to explain how a born again thinks. But let me try. We don’t have to ask you if your born again or have you accepted Christ or are you filled with the HS. Anyone can say yes. But we can hear the voice of the Lord, or not hear it in you.
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Yu keep having to explain away that Jesus did not mean what he said. Does it not worry you to replace the words of Jesus with the words of men?
You have a totally man-made religion Bosco. Remember, religion simply means a set of beliefs. Ours come from what Jesus said, yours come from explaining that he didn’t mean what he said. That’s what’s so odd about you Bosco – you replace the words of Jesus with the words of Bosco and don’t see the problem.
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Some how you get the impression I don’t believe Jesus. ye must be born of water and spirit. Ok. I think you believe I discount water baptism. It isn’t needed to be born again. If you noticed, in the NT, people believed, THEn were water baptized. And if you noticed, Jesus never ever once water baptizes anyone. Yes, its just an outward show. using your(or the CCs) logic, we can expect to see good brother Earl kaultenbruner and good brother Rudolph Hoess and good brother Hitler at the marriage supper.
Funny you condemn me for not believing Jesus words. Don’t have me go over all the things you guys do.
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You did discount water baptism, you said it was just for show. We quoted Jesus at you, you denied Jesus and cherry-pick verses which suit you. No one ever said that being baptised meant you were saved, so your comments about Nazis are just a sideshow. You deny Jesus and substitute your words for his. Fine, but that is Boscoism not Christianity.
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OK, …said Simple Simon to the pieman….now im getting some ware.
You admit water baptism doesn’t make one saved. So, what does make one saved, in your religions rules? isn’t that the important one.? lets see what Good brother Raven says. maybe we should ask good whatever Cconey if water baptism saves you. What say ye Ms or Mr Cconey?
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It brings you into Christ’s family and open up the chance of salvation. Very few believe ‘once saved, always saved’.
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The apostles preached the Word, and then those who believed went and got water baptized. believe first, then water baptize. Technically, the believer is already in the house of god, then the outward show of water. But im not of that school. One can hear the Word and rejoice and get water dunked and still not be born again. Isnt that so? its up to each individual to ask Jesus to reveal himself. I didn’t get water dunked. When I was a baby I guess I was. I did at a service while I was a missionary up the coast. Just for the heck of it. Hell, I was already saved.
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As I say, I simply follow Jesus and his Church.
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Hey good brother, don’t your sons believe as I do? You must get tired of being slammed from both directions (;-D
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No, they believe Jesus meant what he said.
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What do they say when you tell them lots of what Jesus said isn’t to be interpreted literally, like you tell me all the time.
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Most people use their common sense. It is clear Jesus does not want us to pluck our eye out and that he is not saying don’t call your father, father, and it is clear he does mean he is literally a door or a vine. Then, with the Reformation, some Protestants, wanting to attack the Church, started saying that the ‘father’ passage should be taken literally something no one had done for 1500 years. It is to such odd places that prejudice takes people.
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I am an occasional visitor to this blog but this post and the ensuing discussion have confused me. The author of the post quotes Jesus as saying, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” This verse is offered (among other verses) by the author as part of his defense that Jesus teaches that we only need to be born again and does not command us to join a religion. I get what he is driving at but a question about the author of this post is bothering me and so I have decided to ask it.
My question is simple: Is it the author’s testimony that he was baptized by water and by Spirit?
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I was at a free concert in downtown los angeles. I was changed on the ride home. No water needed. Water baptism is just a show to the outside world.
One can be dunked in water a million times. That doesn’t give one a new spirit. John was baptizing with water but the Holy Ghosts gives the spirit. Even though John baptized with water, the HS wasn’t given to man at that time.
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Jesus threw in the water part just for show? Matthew 12:36
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When people turn it(water baptism) into a ritual that you stand in line to perform , to get god dished out to you, then it is worthless. Just as is communion. What is it worth if you do all that and wake up in hell?
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What an astonishing attitude. God’s Word is not to be trusted to mean what it says, then?
Are you saying that when Jesus was baptized in the Jordan River by John the Baptist, it was an empty ritual?
All scripture is God breathed (2 Timothy 3:16) and does not deceive or tempt us with empty words or rituals.
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Thanks for joining the discussion my new friend. Does water baptism save one from the fires of hell? What say ye.
When jesus was baptized, it was no empty ritual. The holy ghost settled on him rite afterwards.
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And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Some scripture is difficult to be understood, even for the elect. His ways are way higher that ours. The unsaved have even much less a clue what scripture says or means. Just look at this gigantic behemoth of a religion the CC. It has its flock on their knees befor graven images of male and females. Talk about not understanding scripture.
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Brother cockney, I think you know who I am.
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Why no, actually, I don’t know who you are.
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Good. jesus said you don’t know where I come from or where I go to.
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There you go again, Bosco. Cccony quotes Scripture:
“Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” And you quote yourself: ‘Water baptism is just a show to the outside world.’ That was not what Jesus said.
Do you not see that, yet again, you replace the words of Jesus with your own words? Perhaps you are worshipping yourself? You certainly replace the words of Jesus often enough.
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Yeah, your rite. Seems like im replacing His words. But I try to explain why I say what I say.
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You do, but it involves effectively replacing what Jesus said with your own views. I believe Jesus meant what he said.
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You do eh?
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Yes, he changed Simon’s name to Rock and said he founded his church upon that Rick; he said unless we eat his body snd drink his blood, there is no life in us; he said we needed to be born gain by water and spirit. On all these you deny his words.
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Don’t forget to call no man father on this earth and no vain repetition of prayers and no bowing befor images made by hands.
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If this were true, then two things would follow: no one would call their ‘father’ father, and the designation of God as Father would have no meaning. If no one used the word father, how would we know what it meant to call God father? So we begin from the logical place that you have, as usual, misunderstood. Both Paul and the author of Acts call Abraham and Isaac their ‘father’, so clearly they did not understand Jesus’ words as you do. In the same passage in Matthew, Jesus says to call no man ‘teacher’, and yet we all have teachers, so again, either everyone is damned for calling their dad ‘father’ and their teacher ‘teacher’, or you have the wrong end of the stick.
Jesus often uses hyperbole. Do you think, for example, that when he says you should pluck your eye out if it sins, he means it literally? If so, you would be blind, I suspect. No, he does not mean it literally, he is emphasising a point by using extreme language – he’s saying we need to guard our eyes and our thoughts against impurity. Similarly, he is warning against making anyone but God your real Father and anyone but God your real teacher. He isn’t saying you can’t call your father your father.
Sometimes you really seem almost deliberately obtuse. If you think Jesus meant hyperbole literally, then next time you lust after a woman to whim you are not married to, you should rip out your eye. I’m betting you won’t, because even you realise that would not be what Jesus meant.
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Its early and im sleepy. So I wont go back and cut and paste all the quotes you cathols said about believing Jesus word literally.
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Some things do need to be read literally, some not, and it is a matter of discernment to know which. I take it you do not really think Jesus is commanding you to tear out your eye when you lust? So why assume he means literally not to call your father ‘father’. A bit of common sense can be quite useful you know sometimes.
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The very first time I read that I believed He meant that literally. I still do.
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You guys jump on me for saying baptism is a show, yet good brother Chalcedon says it doesn’t save you. Sounds like we are on the same page there.
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Read 1 Peter 3:21 about baptism and being saved through water. Those are the words of the Holy Bible and not of any man (or clown). 🙂
I will repeat what I already asked: Is it your testimony that you were baptized in the way our Lord commands, by water and Spirit? Your answer is no, you say that the water is just a show and you do not seek a water baptism. And so the answer to my original question is that you reject our Lord’s word. There is no other explanation and no way to wiggle out of this. By Jesus’ own definition, you are not born again. God loves you and will never desert you, but he also will never deceive you. Believe his Holy Word. You have turned your back on his word by rejecting water baptism. Sorry to have to break it to you but it is the plain truth.
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my friend cockney, im starting to smell something. Im smelling an education in bible study. maybe college or seminar. Maybe im imagining things. You said I don’t seek a water baptism. Find where I said that and cut and paste it here and I will go away and never come back. If you cant find it, admit that you hallucinate. But anyway it goes, im glad and privileged to meet you and talk with you.
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I just read the Bible, love it, and discuss it with friends. I have quoted the Bible and Jesus’s words for you and you descend into an attempt to bully me. This is very telling.
Cut and paste here where you told me that you sought a water baptism. What you told me is that it is not needed, it is all for show. That is not what Jesus says.
The facts are that your entire blog post about being born again is based on a falsehood as you are not born again according to the very words of our Lord. I realize this may be brutal for you to take in. But only a friend will tell you when your zipper is open.
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I didn’t seek a water baptism. And im not here because I want to be here. I was changed, whether you like it or not my friend.
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Actually I like it that you were changed. I don’t know why you would put it that way, it sounds like a belligerent challenge. I wonder if that is how you mean to come across. Some people who have experienced what you did call that a baptism in the Holy Spirit. My born again friends have been baptized, if they weren’t baptized as children they chose to be baptized after meeting God on a personal basis. I know this happens and never challenge it in anyone.
I was raised knowing that my baptism was something powerful and wonderful, that it made me one of God’s own beloved children and that he would always love and protect me. I count it as the most significant event of my life even though I don’t remember the event (I was 4). I don’t understand an attitude that rejects water baptism. That seems to me to be a rebellion against the gifts that God wants to give us. I imagine that if you were to decide to get baptized, amazing things might happen to you, things like joy and love and peace. Not such bad gifts to accept from God. Maybe you could think about it and submit to God’s will in this one thing.
I’m not telling you what to do, it is just something to think about.
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Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
8 souls were saved by water. They climbed into a boat. Now you say water baptism saves us. Thank you for your answer. Im conducting a poll as to if water baptism saves.
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Since you are using a modern, man-made version of what it means to be ‘saved’, best of luck with that one. Paul talks about our running the great race and winning the prize at the end, even for himself. If St Paul did not believe that simply having a revelation from Jesus direct ‘saved’ him, why do you think the opposite of what St Paul thought? Another example of you ignoring the Bible, cherry-picking a passage and applying a meaning to it the opposite of what Christians have always believed.
Short answer is that no one except you believes we are ‘saved’ by water baptism, and I’m not sure you believe it either.
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Paul met Jesus. he didn’t have a revelation. I didn’t have a revelation. By the way, ive been attacking Catholicism from the wrong direction. Mormonism was started as a money making scheme. Catholicism was started as a means to keep men from knowing Jesus but its priests, the priests of Dagon from Babylon, went to Rome so as to keep the religion going so they could have incomes and continue to live lavish. They perform a show for an hour and collect the money and live big. The bishops don’t have to perform. They just live big. The Holy Father just has to pop his head out a window and say something.
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Again, if you read what Paul wrote, he did have a revelation of the Lord speaking to him. He no-where writes “I met Jesus’ – he had a revelation – or at least that’s what he told the Galatians: ‘I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.’ Again, you deny the very words used in the Bible by Paul. On what authority?
Catholicism was started by this Jesus fellow who founded his church on a man he called Rock. It is still there. The idea that there were Babylonian priests in Rome is speculation, and the notion that men who had suffered rather than renounce Christ, were taken in by them a sad fantasy needed by those with no evidence. Bishops live big, do they? I know two, and they both earn less than I do.
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No, because no one but you is saying baptism ‘saves’ you. That is because you have an entirely unbiblical attitude to what being ‘saved’ means.
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I was changed, like it or not. Screw my attitude.
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And that is what keeps me talking to you when others want you banned. I can see you have changed, I can hear it in your voice, despite the attitude. That’s why you are well worth the time and the effort. I believe you have changed, and I believe in your own way you do know Jesus. I just want you to know about other ways of knowing him. Read my piece today and you’ll see what I mean.
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Banned. Oh geeze. People are funny. Im banned from my own site. Shoot the messenger. My mother used to say……the world is a stage. and the people are actors. People are people. But some act as though they are more than human. They are actors. Bigger than life. She said that because I went to school with TV and movie personalities. She made me realize that they are just every day humans.
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It was Shakespeare who said it first, but your Mom was right.
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Good brother Chalcedon asked me if I was ever involved in the occult. Im not going to use semantics. I, when in early teens and befor, loved glow in the dark skeletons. I was being drawn into the occult, but was to young to do anything about it. I sympathized with Krishna’s and then with Nishren Shoshu, then the Lord grabbed me, all in rapid succession. If you are trying to figure out if im demon possessed, I hope that info gives you something to cling to.
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It suggests that you may well be vulnerable to the operation of unholy spirits. The problem is a simple one, Bosco, you claim to know Jesus, and yet you replace his words as recorded in Scripture with your own words. Sorry, but that does not sound right at all.
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OK. Im giving up the holy roller business.
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Just spend a little time thinking on what Jesus said and using some common sense.
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Most of us were baptised as infants. We didn’t have a say in it but our parents believed it was so important that many children were baptised before they or their mothers had left the hospital.. Where a baby was in distress or in immediate danger of dying, they were often baptised by the nurse on duty or by a parent. Baptism is one sacrament which can be given by any baptised Christian. The formula is simple : While pouring water over the child’s head one says “I baptise you “x”- in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Sprit. Amen.”
There are three types of baptism; by water, by desire and by blood. Since Jesus was baptised by water we follow his example in this as in all things, especially since he asked us to do exactly this so that there would be no doubt that we were his, by word AND seed.
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Deed !!!
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I guess you don’t have to know youre being baptized.
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No, although usually your parents tell you!
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Also, you are provided with a white garment, symbolic of the wedding garments provided at the Supper of The Lamb, and of our souls now washed clean of the stain of original sin thanks to Jesus, the Son of God.
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The Holy Father good brother benedict said that good brother Maciel aws a good brother. Opps. Good brother Johnpaul II said Marciel was a wonderful priest leader of the leigionair of Christ. No matter. Doesn’t matter how wicked the priestcraft is, god works thru them. Jesus always said….its what they say about them is how we shall know them.
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There you go again. Are you saying God does not have the power to transcend the wickedness of a man? What God is this you believe in? He seems pretty tame and useless if he can’t manage that.
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OK, im going to concede and give you the point on that. Your reasoning is supported by biblical fact. I guess ill have to go back to the drawing board.
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Thank you.
One starting point, and it was as hard for me as it it is for you, is humility. There have been lots of other people in this world over the last 2000 years who have followed Jesus, and many of them have written about their experiences. Even if you don’t believe that the Catholic Church is THE Church, it has tried to keep the legacy it received from the Apostles, and it, as with the Orthodox Church, has thoughts long and hard about some of the issues we’ve been discussing.
You are not alone in reading the Bible and assuming it means x or y, we all do it; I know I used to. Understanding why, for example, the Nicene Creed matters, is something that will help. There are some pieces on this blog which will help. This piece by me may be a good start?
https://jessicahof.wordpress.com/2015/05/17/go-and-make-disciples/
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Humility is the starting point. I agree.
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good closinging words.
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Bosco, you know you are welcome here. I’ve written a post tomorrow you may, or may not, find interesting.
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You never know
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