The French National Assembly has approved a bill which would criminalise pro-life websites which it says “exert psychological or moral pressure” on women not to abort. The proposed offence would be punishable by up to two years’ imprisonment and a €30,000 fine. Quite how one would legally define such terms is, no doubt, a question which will keep lawyers in fees for many years to come. We know that here in the UK the authorities will not allow pictures of abortion procedures to appear on screen because of the fear of causing ‘upset’. Thus, killing babies in the womb, which might do more tan ‘upset’ many, and would certainly ‘upset’ the baby is allowed, but let’s not talk too much about it, and let’s not do anything which might cause a mother-to-be to change her mind in case she gets ‘upset’.
This is a difficult issue precisely because it marks the point of intersection between a Christian view of life and a secular one. The society into which Christianity came was one which held human life cheap. There was a lot of it, in the sense that many babies were born, and there was a lot of death, in the sense that mortality rates for babies and infants was high. Unwanted babies were left out on hillsides to die, human beings were bought and sold as commodities, and for all but an elite, life was usually poor, nasty, brutish and short. It might be added that that last condition has been the case for most of human history, but the coming of Christianity changed the attitude to life. If all human life was from God, it was sacred, and even if someone was a slave, they deserved treating as a fellow child of God. Without that Christian impulse it may be doubted whether slavery would have been challenged; certainly in societies untouched by it, slavery persisted, and it may be no accident that as Christianity has receded in the West, we have discovered slavery is on the rise. Fallen mankind has within it the darkest instincts derived from the father of lies, and left to itself will indulge itself in acts so wicked that they defy description; it is also capable of finding specious reasons for its actions. Left to itself, its own comfort and selfishness figure high on mankind’s lists of ‘needs’.
None of this is to minimise the distress of women who find themselves pregnant and who feel unready or unable to take care of a child; it’s easy enough to stand in judgement and sniffily tell them they should have thought of that first; how easy it is for those without sin to cast the first stone – but at least the Pharisees had the sense of shame to walk away without casting any stone. Nor its it to excuse the way in which society, not least agents of the Churches, have treated what used to be called ‘unmarried mothers’. Indeed, that mistreatment, like the way in which the Church dealt with sex abuse cases, has eroded much of its moral authority in our society. It is hard to take lessons on morality from any institution which showed itself more concerned with its own reputation than with the damage done to others by its agents. Thus are the sins of the fathers visited on posterity.
In a society where life is not sacred and where the feelings or preferences or life-styles of people take preference, and where the Church’s point of view is compromised by its own history, finding a language in which to discuss this most emotive of issues has not proved possible. The natural next step is for politicians to close down points of view they do not want to hear. The banned the pro-lifers, I was not pro-life, so did nothing. When they get round to banning your own point of view, there will be no one there to speak for you – and perhaps no point in speaking.
Liberty, Equality, Fraternity. Viva la France. I guess this is the logical end of the French Revolution.
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In a sense yes, it is the tyranny of the majority come to life in all of its awful majesty, Robespierre won’t be far behind.
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It is indeed – and as was prophesied, men will find it worse than that of any individual tyrant.
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Indeed a robber baron may sometimes be satisfied , but not one looking out for your goodness.
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That’s the problem with so much legislation these days, there is absolutely no way to define the terms. “exert psychological or moral pressure” or for that matter “hate crime” may to me be a public service while to Harvey Lunchbucket they may be the exact opposite. Amongst the other problems you highlight, it is the end of “Rule of Law” as we in the English-speaking world know it.
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Apparently this has been going on for some time in France and the Senate rejected this same bill earlier this year. My first reaction is where is the Catholic press, the bishops and cardinals and the Pope? It seems to me they are quick to run to the aid of every liberal agenda and loathe to speak out publicly against pure evil. If this were the ‘killing’ of the climate by carbon emissions or if it was Trump building a wall to stop illegal aliens or blocking criminals refugees from entry into our country they would have made it a priority to address. It is indeed a topsy turvy world and worse yet it is a topsy turvy Church that remains silent on evil unless in their views it is a social justice sin that occupies there every waking moment. When you work with Jeffrey Sachs on global warming and the contracepting or aborting of black babies in Africa [for the sake of sustainability of course] what would you expect? We are now accustomed to this barbarity that the globalists have now foisted as the ultimate cure of overcrowding of our planet and a means to help the poor and feed the hungry. No wonder this new ‘populism’ is on the rise throughout the Western World.
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excellent points!
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Well after-birth abortions are the next big thing: https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/canadian-ethicist-advocates-post-birth-abortion-for-newborns
I might agree with that if we adopt the words of Bill Cosby: “I brought you into this world and I can take you out.” We might allow this up to the time a child leaves home. I’ll bet a whole group of middle-aged liberals who still live in their parent’s basement would give a little pushback to this idea however. 🙂
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That’s probably true
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There are three factors in play at the time of temptation to abortion: the world, the flesh and the devil. Up against all three at once, the single mom to be has little chance. But if the true Christian community draws near to save the life of the child by embracing the mother in love, both may actually be saved. The innocent child is hostage to the French government and it will take even more heroic measures to save that little baby. The government has been in bed for too long with a population controlling measure, abortion on demand is actually rarely demanded in the sense that the brazen woman walks into a doctor’s office demanding he kill the child right now!, etc. For the most part that actually circumstances find the woman up against overwhelming odds, including the world, the flesh and the devil. She needs help and now it will take a different approach. We pro-lifers will simple have be shrewd as serpents but as gentle as doves as our Savior has instructed.
C, your words, “This is a difficult issue precisely because it marks the point of intersection between a Christian view of life and a secular one.” Now, at this point in time I am of a mind that no longer gentrifies those who are pro-choice. I will no longer use the words to describe their position they prescribe for our dialogs. It isn’t a simple intersection between Chrisitan views and a secular view. You are, as always way too kind. Barbaric is a much more accurate description of those methods used to dismember the innocent infant in the womb, waiting for his or her chance to life freely as a citizen of whatever society is waiting to embrace him or her. Barbarians. I firmly believe that history will call us all that when this age has passed from the human scene. A people that kills children so others can have any sexual lifestyle they choose without impediment is nothing more than a barbaric society. Murder made simple. The abortionist is just murder for hire in my book as is the doctor who commits euthanasia. Barbarians in league with the world, the flesh and the devil. Disgusting really.
God bless. Ginnyfree.
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It isn’t kindness, it’s Realpolitik- these people are in the majority and we can’t win by insulting them.
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Sadly true, but I suspect the times they are achangin’. The American abortion numbers are now lower than they have been since 1971, two years before Roe v Wade.
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Which is good not only in its own right, but also because it is a sign of organic change.
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Exactly my thought when I read it.
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This is truly terrifying and makes me highly sceptical regarding the possibility of France becoming a truly Catholic nation again. That being said, this is one of the last acts of a liberal regime. When the right wins the coming election, we may well see a swing against these measures.
Sancta Maria ora pro natione Francorum et episcopis Ecclesiae Christi. Domine Iesu, mitte apostolos ad nationem Francorum. Miserere et dona eis pacem, gratia nominis Tui.
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We may indeed – Filion seems a different kettle of fish.
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Maybe, one hopes so. But France has been not only a secular state, but an anti-clerical one since the revolution itself. But one hopes and prays.
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You invoked Our Lady. This delights me in an extreme degree.
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Post birth abortion proposed in Canada:
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/canadian-ethicist-advocates-post-birth-abortion-for-newborns
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I wonder how long after birth? Perhaps the Trudeaus might change their mind about Justin?
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This also reminds me of newspeak in 1984. “Post-birth abortion” – what conservatives would call “infanticide”.
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A relative recently wrote an e-mail to me in which he made the following off-handed comment: “What do you think of the pope’s recent course change on abortion?”
Well, at least this article starts out with abortion. Our current pope is certainly adding to “A topsy-turvy world.”
http://www.crisismagazine.com/2016/the-concern
What do you think?
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I think anyone who thinks the Pope has changed his mind on abortion isn’t following closely.
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No? What do you call this pontificate’s being in lock-step with the UN’s Sustainability goals? Here is just one article: http://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/2905-sachs-watch-white-man-lectures-black-man
Is Jeffrey Sachs an honored guest at the Vatican? Or have his ideas been repudiated and his presence there made unwanted? Oh, the irony of it all!
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Sorry, can you show me where the POpe has endorsed his agenda? If everyone whom the Pope visited was thought to be approved of, then we really would have incoherence. It’s just this sort of thing which adds to petrol to the flames. The Pope has made himself crystal clear on abortion.
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Ok, this is just one article, and at the bottom of which are listed other related ones. http://voiceofthefamily.com/pope-francis-gratified-by-un-goals-that-demand-universal-access-to-sexual-and-reproductive-health/
This is one from June 2016 also. http://www.lepantoinstitute.org/vatican-representative-endorses-un-sustainable-development-goals-verbatim/
I will put one more in another comment so to escape the spam filter.
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This is precisely the point I was making. The writer of the article insists that because freancis supports the ‘sustainability’ programme he must support abortion and contraception. Nothing he has said on either issue directly supports this. Surely by now it is clear that he is not a systematic thinker, and therefore he is supporting the idea of sustainability not necessarily the details in the UN plan – anyone assuming he knows the detail is doing so disingenuously.
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http://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/2642-vatican-watch-the-vatican-s-greatest-supporter-and-collaborator
Now I will be easy on you. After reading them please answer one question. Are all these sources fake news or propaganda?
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the first 2 articles above tie the Pope to the UN’s goals. The 3rd article ties Jeffrey Sachs to the Vatican, where he has spoken 9 times.
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And all of them make inferences which they can’t support from anything the Pope has said about contraception and abortion here:
https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2016/11/20/pope-francis-calls-abortion-horrendous-crime-grave-sin/
or here:
http://www.catholic.org/news/hf/faith/story.php?id=67431
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First of all C, I would like to tell you that I possibility could be wrong. I don’t really think so, but my wife swears it has happened at least a couple of times in 30 years. 🙂
So having established that, you really need to listen intently. 🙂 Archbishop Bernardito Auza, Apostolic Nuncio and Permanent Observer of the Holy See to the United Nations gives a formal statement to the UN, where his exact words were: “We support the verbatim inclusion of the sustainable development goals and targets…” This is after Jeffrey Sachs has been to the Vatican numerous times selling his snake oil. Then Pope Francis stated that he was “gratified that in September 2015 the nations of the world adopted the Sustainable Development Goals… And Pope Francis has praised the 1960s German moral theologian Bernard Häring, one of the most prominent dissenters from Pope Paul VI’s 1968 encyclical Humanae Vitae: https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/francis-praises-prominent-humanae-vitae-dissenter-for-his-radical-new-moral
Fact: the Vatican under the previous 2 popes has always been on the outs with the UN concerning this subject, to such an extent that the UN has passed resolutions condemning the Vatican. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/06/world/europe/un-panel-assails-vatican-over-sex-abuse-by-priests.html
The report, issued in Geneva, addressed issues far beyond child sexual abuse, taking the Vatican to task for its opposition to contraception, homosexuality and abortion in cases of child rape and incest. The committee even suggested that the church amend its canon laws… And now the Vatican is all chummy with the UN.
Couple this all together with the fact that Pope Francis is obsessed and fighting against all the rigidity in the teaching of the Church for the last 2000 years and you have a recipe for disaster. It has already caused the current crisis (AL). You see Francis wants the “spirit of Vatican II” to bloom and dance down the aisle. Contraception, homosexual acts, and abortion will end up being up to the discerning priests and the conscience of the penitent. Which you have stated; “then we can be sure that what is done, is what ought to be done.” Church teaching will mean nothing, it will all boil down to “WHO AM I TO JUDGE?
You said you would answer my question posted in the comments, 3rd from the bottom, of your post, Private judgement? on 11/28/16. Reading the comments from the articles I posted is not important. They just make it plain that there are many others that believe this Pope is way off course and some take the time to explain their reasons why. As The Masked Chicken stated, I probably don’t read much that I disagree with, so I’m waiting on you to tell me why the Church teaching should be turned upside down. You can bet I’ll read it.
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You extrapolation may be right, but the Pope has not said that he is in favour of abortion – quite the opposite.
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What Pope Francis says and what he means is always in confusion . . . for he actually never says anything at all in many cases. If a man is committed to the life of the unborn then why would he heap praise upon the notorious abortionist in Italy, Emma Bonino? The same could be said of the ‘sustainable goals initiative’ of Jeffrey Sachs and the UN which is notoriously trying to ‘improve’ the world by contraception, abortion and the focus on black Africa; a type of genocide if ever there was one. No he won’t come out and say that he is for abortion, just like he will not come forward and say he is for communism, or the Fidel Castro’s of the world but he will praise them in their lives as well as in their deaths. And no, he will not say that it is OK to have adulterous or SSM relations and still be right with the Church; he will only allow them (next year for SSM I’m betting) accesss to full communion without anything more than their personal conscience to be their guide. It is sort of like a man that says he is a woman. You are whatever you think you are (you are as innocet as you think you are) and who am I to correct you?
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But he has spoken, and often, against abortion- so to insist on reading the gestures as contradicting the words seems to be straining things.
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Who among us understand what his words mean? He speaks and there is immediate confusion. As to his acts, I can tell much more. Who can mistake his removal of the orthodox cardinals from places of importance and replaced them with those who are pro-homosexualist and pro-communion for the divorced and remarried? Where are his words backed up regarding abortion even in Italy itself? When did he condemn a regime or country for passing legislation that is pro-abortion? It is not straining anything to see that he has cozied up to some very evil people and ideologies in this world and yet has slandered and cursed those who hold to their ‘old’ traditional beliefs as Catholics. It is as plain as it needs be for me and I do wonder how someone of your intellect is still trying to pretend that there is a third way between good and evil rather than yes or no. No wonder he won’t answer straight up the dubia as presented him. He wants to answer neither yes or no but maybe, no?
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Of course, as he wants, no one can say.
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The comments on Private judgement?, seem to have been closed. Just to add to the official record, I would like to add 2 articles.
The 1st from EWTN happens to be by Deacon Nick Donnelly, who many here will remember has in the past allowed us to post his articles and has even blessed us with responses to our comments of those articles.
https://www.ewtn.co.uk/news/holy-see/there-s-already-a-bizarre-schism-among-some-clergy-says-bishop-schneider
The 2nd is from the Catholic Hearld (UK) in which Pope Francis states that: “It is interesting that all that it contains [Amoris Laetitia], in the Synod it was approved by more than two thirds of the fathers. And this is a guarantee.” In my discussion with Scoop tonight we, for the life of us, can’t remember that to be the case, and as is stated in the article, neither can the journalist Edward Pentin, author of a book on the synod. So, to save face we now have Pope Francis lying. Why would the pope lie? http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2016/12/07/pope-francis-everything-in-amoris-laetitia-was-supported-by-the-synod/
And why would the pope lie in the light of fact that in the article by Deacon Donnelly, he states:
At the beginning of the interview Bishop Schneider pointed out that Pope Francis has made it clear that Amoris Laetitia is not part of the Magisterium:
The magisterial value of the apostolic exhortation Amoris Laetitia is determined by the intention of its author, Pope Francis, who expressed it with clear statements, as for example in the following, which I will quote:”I would make it clear that not all discussions of doctrinal, moral or pastoral issues need to be settled by interventions of the magisterium.” (AL 3). These are the words of the pope.
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just for the history of this controversy, we need one more source.
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2016/12/article-considerations-on-dubia-of-four.html
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And this article from First Things points out pastoral practices that may evolve from the misuse of AL. https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2016/12/an-open-letter-to-pope-francis
“In this letter we request Pope Francis to condemn eight positions against the Catholic faith that are being supported, or likely will be, by the misuse of his Apostolic Exhortation Amoris Laetitia. We ask all bishops to join in this request and to issue their own condemnations of the erroneous positions we identify, while reaffirming the Catholic teachings these positions contradict.”
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