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Nicholas’ post on democracy prompted some thoughts which I had imagined would provide a comment, but which have grown into a post. There are, to be sure, some odd things about the recent UK referendum. In the first place it was an advisory referendum; there was nothing in the legislation which bound the government to abide by the result. The atmosphere in which the campaign was carried on clearly convinced David Cameron that he had no choice but to go, and it was equally clear to his successor that she had the same lack of choice. The fact that the political establishment ran their campaign on ‘operation fear’ was one of the things which poisoned the campaign, and it should have been clear to those who ran it that if they lost, they’d find themselves in a difficult situation, since the real harm they feared would not happen for some time. It was the height of irresponsibility not to plan for what might happen if the Brexiteers won. For these two reasons alone, the political establishment deserved censure. It is not the job of the Government to ignore clear and present dangers. Who knows, the effort needed might have thrown up some of the troubles we are now beginning to encounter. It may be that I was not listening when there were serious discussions about the implications of a Brexit vote for the future of the UK, especially Scotland and Northern Ireland.
Those who found themselves in the minority have been loud in their condemnation of the dishonesty of the Brexit side, not least the implication that the money which was being spend on the EU could be spend on the NHS. They have a point. But as I have already said, so do those condemning the tactics of the ‘Remain’ side. This points us, as does the way the American presidential election campaign has been run, in the direction of some real doubts about the democratic process. It relies upon a number of thing which, as Nicholas pointed out, we no longer have – shared values, shared assumptions about the ‘good life’ and a shared assumption that this world is not all there is and that one day we shall all stand in God’s presence to be judged. We get some trace of what this meant in Kipling’s ‘Epitaph for a dead statesman’:
The implicit answer is ‘none’. On both sides of this debate, as in the USA now, politicians have lied and are lying ‘to please the mob’. But ‘the mob’ is less and less convinced by the lies, which is why they are becoming more and more blatant. Goebbels was correct when he told Hitler that if you were going to lie, make it a big one, because people would more easily believe it.
We are seeing now where this leads. Mrs Clinton’s supporters will vote for her come what may. That she has lied, lied and lied again about a whole array of things matters not, she is their candidate. The same is true of Mr Trump’s supporters. Is he a vulgarian, is he crude and are some of his idea (the wall for example) not just mad, but unpleasantly so, who cares, he is their candidate.
This is politics as team sport. People back their teams come what may.
Yet, as we are seeing in the UK in the aftermath of the Brexit vote, there are some knotty realities which will need untangling. But there is no sign that anyone is going to get behind a national effort to do what needs to be done – quite the opposite, with politicians on all sides jockeying for personal advantage. It may be that I am too harsh, and that beneath this appearance of playing politics as though it were a game, there is a deep seriousness hidden; but if so, it is in deep cover. Democracy depends, in the end, on the notion that the majority are right; but what if they are not?
I think the people have it ‘fundamentally’ right. It seems to me that in the UK, much of Europe and in the US the people have left their ‘teams’ in disgust and come rightly to the conclusions that “Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.” The rumblings of the people against our deteriorating political elites is loud and clear in their overwhelming ‘vote of no-confidence’. How the particulars will be handled has become a moot point – – that the elites need to be run out of town on a pole seems the first step before one can start digging into the mountain of problems they have enshrined in law and regulation we have been living under for years. The problem is always that in the confusion and exuberance of destroying a pustule that we might inadvertently create another infection far worse. These are difficult times; live with the corruption or take the risk that accompanies the throwing out of what is, even if we don’t like it, a type of order. Without that order, the possibility of anarchy looms large as the worst outcome which usually opens the door for some really bad and unlikely saviors . . . like a Hitler, Stalin, Mao etc. But like it or not, the people are fed up with the status quo and the gradual selling of their self-determination to outsiders: the EU, the UN or Global bankers and Global elites. Folks don’t like feeling powerless against these power brokers who tend to suffocate the people and make their lives miserable. No wonder we have been largely drugged to allow us to make it through the day and no wonder licentious license has been given to distract us from the truth. Like the magician who has you looking where you shouldn’t, we are all getting tired of being played the fool. Some will remain in that reality but most are tired of being led by those who have us believing in a magician’s trick designed to entertain and distract. Misdirection is their trade mark and that is the key to their power; they are the folk behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz.
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For myself, it comes down to almost a version of urban renewal, the structure is condemned, the only solution is to tear most of it down, and rebuild. Hopefully, not too many good people get hurt, but I doubt OSHA applies.
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You have to crack some eggs to make an omelet. There is no way around it. Hopefully, education and healing of those ‘egg huggers’ will be possible. Otherwise, we face a cold or hot civil war for years to come. The cold one has been waged fairly quietly so far . . . but some real anger and hatred is not far from the surface.
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Yes, it’s getting quite near the surface, not a good time to stoke the kitchen stove, I think.
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Indeed, I think politically speaking Trump needs to speak softly and carry a big stick. He need not make attacks at this point . . . he can let the people make the points for him.
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All he really has to do, in my opinion, is make sure the media doesn’t cover it up.
“Look! A Squirrel!”
Shouldn’t be hard for him.
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Indeed. I think the internet will do the job that the press won’t anyway. But this one seems to be ‘strangely’ something all the mainstream media are covering. It makes me wonder what they’re up to. 🙂
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This is why a Trumpslide is coming!! For those in a confused state, Trumpslide = Trump wins in a landside.
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Don’t forget about the ‘misdirection’ of the elite. It may be that internal polls showed a moving shift towards Trump. One ‘conspiracy theory’ that is not out of the question is that if Hillary wins . . . they claim it is a mandate. If she loses, they scream that the election was compromised. The DOJ will investigate and an unprecedented extension of Obama might be required until the parties can run a new election with new candidates. Just sayin’ . . . we have no idea what goes on behind the curtains of Washington.
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The daily polls today seem to be within about 1%. But he’ll need to win by a good amount to overcome the World War I veteran vote, which is heavily Democratic, I hear.
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The dead and the illegal are voting in unprecedented numbers this year. And of course this is part of their core constituency . . . not to mention felons in prison.
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Indeed, last I heard Indiana had something to investigate in 92 counties, out of 92. Pervasive, I would say.
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Are you CRAZY!! That would require Obama not believing in the rule of law. And we all know he does. 🙂
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Yes, him and his chief DOJ flunky, Loretta ‘I take the fifth’ Lynch.
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And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Get used to the turmoil my friends, there is more in store for you. The one whom you long for will be in charge one day soon. Good sister Elizabeth has offered to take over America, but she will be pushing up daises soon. The one whom ye all serve now is next in line to rule the earth and its peoples.
I love it.
You will all get what you deserve. I cant wait.
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Bosco, if we all got what we deserved we’d all end in hell
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Ok, so I should have clarified myself. Im too lazy to put everything down in type.
You people will get on earth the deserts you have been working for. Your earthly endeavors to rid the world of the Almighty and of his Christ shall bear fruit. The man you want will rule over you, here on earth. If you happen to get saved along the way is up to you.
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Democracy depends, in the end, on the notion that the majority are right; but what if they are not?
Hey, no worries. Just so happens that the good ol catholic church has the Holy Father who has a hotline to God. Lets have him tell us how things should be. The Holy Father should step up and solve the worlds problems.
I cant wait to hear what solutions he comes up with.
You cathols are so privileged to be led by the Vicar of Christ himself.
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C, I admit I’m a Trump stumper, and an avid one at that. But, if you will indulge me a bit, I would like to explore your idea that Trump’s desire to build a wall and make Mexico pay for it “not just mad, but unpleasantly so.”
Now, do you know how many illegal immigrants have flowed over the Mexican border in the last, say 50 years? Do you know how many jobs they have taken from Americans? Do you know how many lives, or at least years of those lives have been destroyed by the drugs that flow over the Mexican border? Do you know how many prisons have been built to handle the criminals that have flowed over that border? Do you know how many tax dollars have been spent on medical services, schools, police, food stamps, social services, and welfare payments? The answer to all of these questions is no. You cannot know the extent of the problems until we start enforcing our laws and stop the flow over the border.
Now, I think all who want to enter America should do so legally. Agree? I think Americans should have American jobs. Agree? I think the wall will help slow the flow of drugs over the border. Agree? I think the wall will also, at the very least, stop the increase from year to year of the tax dollars needed for these illegals. Agree?
Please explain to me why I am “mad and unpleasantly so.”
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You missed one [probably many more] but it is one that I personally find disgusting. How about the landowners whose land abuts the Mexican border and have no right to their personal property anymore. The live in fear, find drugs, dead bodies and gunfire on a daily basis. Nobody helps them. They routinely find dead illegals in their fields, killed by cartel or dead from disease and countless other reasons. For those who want to build bridges instead of walls I would suggest that they buy out these folks who live on the border and do just that. After living or ‘dying’ from their huggie feelies for the illegals they will soon abandon their property and vote for something other than a porous border or a so-called ‘bridge’ to aid the illegal aliens to pour unrestrained into our country. “Welcome, to the US. Here is your driver’s license and voter registration. Please remember to vote for the democrats who are supplying you with amnesty for your illegal actions.”
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Yeah, C can answer this one also.
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I’m not completely convinced that a wall is the right answer, but we certainly have a right to control immigration, it is one of the hallmarks of a nation-state. Like the UK, there is a reason so many want to come to the US.
Now, all that said, once we control the borders, we absolutely need to reform our immigration policies, which too often make impossible for worthwhile immigrants to come here while allowing completely undesirable people in. Again the parallel with the UK is uncanny, unless one really does believe that those kids they just let in, really are kids, even if the look older than this old man.
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Well, I think a wall is preferable to the fallout that we would get should we simply give the property owners our full support to protect their property and families by shooting tresspassers on sight. We can stop them by passive means or by active means . . . which will cause a shooting war on the border. Best spend our money steering immigrants to the border crossings and demand that they are registered. Don’t see how you can do that without putting a shooting force on the border or an almost impenetrable wall at this point. We may have been able to negotiate a cooperative deal with the Mexican government had we played hardball with them in the past. Trump may be able to do that as well for some economic incentives.
Yeah, there sure are a lot of ‘children’ that seem able and willing to wield automatic weapons for their cause.
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Indeed so, the one picture I saw, well he was 40 if he was a day.
Re the wall, I agree, but passive defenses never work, combined with actual patrols, even a fairly modest fence would do wonders.
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I certainly agree. A wall that is not patroled and maintained would be useless. I’m sure a combination of the two would go a long way to ending this invasion.
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Indeed so.
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Not to mention why are the only Syrian refugees we’re not letting in, are the Christian ones?
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Another very valid point, NEO. The number of Christians is miniscule. The other interesting thing is how Obama has bused illegal immigrants and ‘refugees’ into many of the red states and swing states. That never used to happen . . . he must think we are so stupid that we don’t understand his intent to change the electorate via immigration.
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Well, I’d guess he does, but we’re sometimes complacent, but when we pay attention rarely stupid. I think the internet has a bit to do with that, since without it, how would we hear?
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True that except in small town America which isn’t shy about telling their citizens about the feds busing in loads of illegals into their midsts. I’m amazed that the citzenry has to date not totally shut down these groups from arriving in their towns. I saw a few standoffs that took place in various places but the ATF or other Feds seemed to force the issue and the folks gave up their protests. At some point it won’t work anymore.
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Yep, it’s a place where the local government is likely to side with the citizens, and that will change the equation.
By the way, I still think the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms sound more like a convenience store than anything else! 🙂
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Yeah a convenience store that buys more ammunition each year than the US Army. I wonder what the hell they are doing all of it . . . target practice really doesn’t seem to sound like a reasonable explanation.
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So, those drugs are forced on innocent US citizens? Those illegal immigrants are all profitably employed by other illegal immigrants? Or do US citizens have a role of agency here?
This wall, how are the Americans going to make the Mexicans pay for it? Hadrian tried ir here, it didn’t work.
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C, yes, all of the problems are ours, no doubt about that. Trump just has one answer among many, he’s not sitting around saying woe is me, nothing will work, all has been tried before and nothing worked, we just have to put up with this misery. The British came very close to a treaty with Hitler, but Churchill said NO!! We will fight!! It surely wasn’t the easy way but the Brits still rule themselves, not Germany. We must control the border, stop illegal immigration, stop illegal drugs, before we have our 2nd civil war.
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I rest my case.
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So you’re going to give it a rest? That’s nice.
By the way – I discovered today the main reason why Trump has support. His supporters don’t like Mexicans and they like Trump because he wants to keep them out.
What is supposed to be wrong with Mexicans? I visited Mexico once for three weeks and they seemed jolly decent to me.
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Good brother Jock, its not that we don’t like Mexican people…..its that criminals from mexico sneak in here because the pickens are easy. They do every sort of horrible crime. Mexicans are brought up in a lawless society and raised like animals, and they grow up to be lawless animals.
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You mean that Mexico today is just like Chicago from the 1920’s?
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There’s still some decent music south of the border.
I’m reminded of Orson Wells ‘Cuckoo clock’
in Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace – and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.
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Not just mexico, but all of south America. South America makes 1920s Chicago look like a nunnery.Maybe you don’t get the news about mexico. Im 80 miles from the Mexican border. Ive lived in and among mexiccans all my life. They steal. You can count on them stealing everything they touch. I stayed at this apt while I was working on it. Its in a solid Mexican neighborhood. Everyone had a padlock on their garage door down the alley. Troops of Mexicans must parade along the alley looking for unlocked doors every nite. Tension was high. Everyone was on guard to secure anything and everything.In south America its pandemonium. Just last week, im talking 5 days ago, 3 thieving Mexicans were caught and the people chopped their hands off at the wrists. This was in mexico somewhere. They showd the pictures of the dirtbags with their wrists all bloody and wrapped up. You can probably google search it. ha ha. Wonderful. Hey, I love Mexican food and much of mexico is a jungle paradise.
I say nuke the whole place.
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Update on situation in Mexico. More wonderful news from Mexico city. Thieving Mexicans regularly board commuter busses and rob everyone on the bus. Broad daylight. Its just how it is in mexico. Well, a passenger had a gun and when the filthbags got off the bus the citizen shot and killed all four of the sleazeball thieves. Joyful and triumphant.
In a separate bus hijacking, a passenger shot four filthball thief Mexicans and two of them died. Slimeball thieves even walk thu traffic and rob people in cars stuck in traffic in broad daylight.
A nation of scumbag thieves.
Mexicans and other south Americans know exactly why we want a wall.
The honest productive Mexicans who made it here don’t want those thieves flooding into the US. They already have to live with the worst of dregs of society….thief Mexican who are already here. Mexican neighborhoods here in the US are nothing short of war zones.
A story ive been following for a yr now; 3 dirtbag Mexican American gang members went to rob a man sitting in a car in a empty parking lot. This was here in Downey, a largely mex area. One waited in the car while the other two went to rob the man. Well, for reasons unknown, they shot and killed the man and didn’t get his money. All that for nothing. The ignorant dirtbags didn’t know it was a parkinglot for the Downey police dept. The man they killed was a office off duty. My guess is that the man identified himself as a police officer and the filthbags killed him so he couldn’t report them or follow them. A officer in a police car was not too far away returning from patrol and heard the gunshot and saw a car speeding away. The officer followed the car and then got word that an office was shot. So he stayed on the chase. Then he got word that the officer died. The young gang members tried to run and led cops on a chase. The dirtbags went to their neighborhood and tried to escape on foot. Two were caught quick and the third was caught about 5 hrs later. One dirtbag turned 17 a few days later and the other two were 18 and 22 yrs old. The 17 yr old had a family who tried to get him released. He had a future ahead of him. School, a career, girls, hamburgers, fried, malts, movies . Now he will never see the free light of day ever again. I feel sad for them. They are in prison for life. But this scenario is played out 100 times a day in Mexican areas.
We need a wall and we need it yesterday.
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