Over the course of the last posts, here, and here, and his link on Catholic social teaching, here, Chalcedon has done much to limn the problems many of us have reconciling our present economy to our Christian beliefs.
Most here will know that I have quite deep libertarian political tendencies, but I too, recognize those problems. It seems to me that what we see today as capitalism, is not what I grew up with, it has become something else, the unchanging focus on the quarterly bottom line highlights the problem. The world I grew up in honored, sometimes too much, the loyal employee, who stayed with the same company, doing his best to help the company, which in turn was loyal to him. Today, that entire ethos is gone, and work has both become all encompassing and completely individualized. But we, especially as Christians know that we are far better as individuals in a community, whether that community is a corporation, the military, or indeed the church.
So how did we get here, and where do we go from here, if anywhere. Most of you know how my thinking goes generally, but I’m no expert, I take in data, analyze it in view of my experience, and draw conclusions. As they say, your mileage may differ, in fact, it probably will.
But recently I ran across something that strikes me as relevant. Professor Kathryn Tanner, the Marquand Professor of Systematic Theology at Yale Divinity School. gave a series of Gifford Lectures at the University of Edinburgh. I think there are five of them, I’ve only watched the first so far, but I think she has a quite large contribution to make to the conversation.
Here is her introductory lecture.
I do agree with much of what she say about economics, I’m still evaluating, though. What do you think?
It seems to me there are all sorts of issues here we are trying to address, and they are tied together in a bundle. In the USA and the UK we are facing a crisis of depression/anxiety/low self-esteem that has several contributing factors, including the state of our economy and the issue of how companies and unions treat workers, which you raise in this post. As the Church we have to find a way of addressing that problem by putting people in touch with Jesus, but we won’t convince anybody if we don’t believe it ourselves.
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Yes, and that’s exactly why I posted this. All these are connected, and it struck me as perhaps an important contribution, a divinity professors talking economics at a secular University. Like I said, I haven’t seen any but the intro here, but I’ll be watching the others. I think all five are on YouTube. A lot of what she says about capitalism today resonates with me.
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Agreed. Our mismanagement of people and our slavishness to “rules” and other things has led to a situation where people despair of finding any meaning in life.
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Ain’t that the truth! Far too many rules these days.
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Yes, which oppresses the conscience something awful because on the one hand we don’t want to obey rules that are stupid, but on the other we don’t want to encourage rebellion or risk getting fired. Dreadful.
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Quite so. Not to mention the quandary we can get in, and trying to align the laws with our morals, not excepting that we have to decide which are moral, and whether we should obey the others, even if we are willing to pay that price. St. Augustine should be back on the best seller list soon, I think.
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And the irony is, while we are wringing our hands over things like that, dictators elsewhere are getting away with murder.
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Indeed, and our own governments are only slightly less reprehensible.
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That’s a She? Youre joking, rite?
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Not your type, Bosco, she a Christian and has a brain.
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That’s a dude.
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They had to have passed out free “No Dose” tablets befor that lecture.
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This Professor “Gender Bender” Tanner is all over the place shakabukuing for gender bending. That ought to warm good brother Chalcedons heart.
You jokingly call her a Christian. We are all sinners and need a relation with Jesus. But make no mistake…no one who lies with their own kind will enter into the Kingdom of heaven, no matter how loud they yell halleluiah.
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Neo, I must confess that I am having time to listen to the lecture posted. However, in reading your conversation with Nicholas there are some things that we need to keep in our minds as culture per se is being manipulated as never before and they might be, for starters, devided up between ‘educational culture’, ‘corporate culture’ and ‘political culture. Where exactly the big push is coming from or whether the cronyism between these elites who are in charge of each is the culprit matters little to the overall outcome which appears to a brainwashing of the populace far removed from anything we ever encountered in out past; that is, if you were raised in the 50’s.
It is, apparently, a brainwashing that has accomplished its goals at present by tearing down the religious and human values that were accepted via common sense, religious beliefs and family unity. Over-regulation of each of these 3 main hotbeds of dissent [I might even call it a revolution] are molding a new culture where we have replaced a common sense, human governor on our actions, and left us free to speak our minds though knowing that some things were antithetical to Western thought, virtues and values that were taught in the family, schools, churches and reflected in out governmental laws for society.
Thereafter we have seen a ‘freeing’ of individuals from the values and commonsense unity of peoples for a common good, to an embrace of individual licentious values which, by definitions, requires on the other hand a tightening of regulations in every aspect of our lives. Regulations regarding speech, conduct, body language, PC [untouchable truths] have made us walk on egg shells. It is tearing about the psyche of individuals as on one hand they can commit any perversion, espouse any type of discontent where they can claim victimhood, and yet they have destroyed the true freedom that is built into our very DNA.
We can now be drummed out of work, persecuted for the values our parents and grandparents held to, forced to submit to classes for ‘brainwashing’ out of existence our human tendency to joke, to flirt, to feel free to express or defend the values that our parents held and made to be model citizens where even if one person is offended the entire concept of what is spoke of is discounted as discriminatory and must therefore not be permitted or allowed. And the consequences for such a faux pas is serious to one’s career or for being able to psychologically fit in the ‘brave new society ‘ where anyone who claims victimhood is an automatic beacon of truth and worthy of making us self-examine every word, utterance, look, vote, dress or expectation in this new light. We are becoming quite psychotic as people. We gave up licentiousness from freedom from every miniscule regulation that we are bombarded with daily. It is no wonder more people are on anti-depressants and anxiety medicines that one can comprehend. We have been beaten into submission, even if not subjectively, at least objectively in our silence and compliance sith all these regulations, rules and new taboos. Open borders and open bathrooms have their same origins; an elite that wants to regulate us into a global, thoroughly submissive society that will bow to whatever the elites have decided to remake us into.
Independence is being deconstructed whilst global rule and regulations are on the rise; from the EU and UN to an eventual agency that will have teeth. The question is whether there will be enough freedom loving individuals able to fight and defeat these movers and shakers or will be simply roll over and accept the outcome of this transformation on a global scale.
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Look, you know I agree with a lot of that, only drawing the line where it becomes a grand conspiracy. That simply won’t wash. Also don’t believe everything you read, there’s other information out there, some is even sort of credible, although unsupported. We’ll simply have to see. And above all, do not give up the fight. Today is Trafalgar day, and anybody looking at the order of battle would say that Nelson will lose.
The toast say it all, then and now. “The Immortal Memory”. While I’m not really a Trump fan, he is necessary, and I haven’t given up that he just might win. Hang in there buddy. We really will have to hang together or we’ll hang separately.
She’s an Episcopalian, and fits her church, but she makes some good points even so.
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If the ‘coincidence’ in the general direction of this world does not involve those who have conspired with others with similar agendas and goals then you must believe in some natural process that is driving the world in the same direction, spontaneously, naturally or by mere chance. People have conspired fromt he start of time to get their ways; sometimes creating unlikely allies in the process. Conspiracy or “conspiracy theory” are quite separate things in my mind. A conspiracy theory is something akin to those who think that we are harboring aliens from other worlds at Area 51; something that has no demonstrable facts and draws conclusions from rather odd places. A conspiracy is when there are facts that draw folks like Soros, Clinton, Obama, Left-wing Socialists and all the progressive institutions and NPO’s (and their nutty professors) into a coziness with similar aims. You either believe their own words and actions or you don’t. If you think that’s a conspiracy theory . . . you join C in his pooh-pooing of any such movement within the progressives of the world. Their ideologies and their working for the promotion of their similar goals (look at where contributions to different groups comes from) is either real or you can say to yourself; “move along folks, nothing to see here.”
I must say I get rather tired of folks implying that I am a conspiracy theorist and who deny that conspiracies have been with humanity from the very beginning. Essau lost his blessing due to a conspiracy between Jacob and his mother.
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Scoop – I haven’t contributed for a while, basically because I feel guilty about spending time on discussions that take place in English, when I should be trying to learn other languages.
Taking issue with your last sentence: yes, there was a conspiracy between Jacob and his mother, but I don’t think that’s why Esau lost his blessing. I get the impression that Isaac, when he understood his error, at the same time he also understood that the blessing was from God and that the blessing had indeed been given to the right person.
The whole conspiracy business simply went to give a graphic illustration of the ‘worm of a man’ that Jacob actually was – and to give us a better understanding of the person whom God actually blessed.
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Whatever the reason, the point I am making is that people who desire a similar end will collude with others to make it a reality. Whether we clandestinely work with countries for a specific end or if we work with power brokers to restructure global power and economics. People are people and collusion of people who “breathe together – this is to ‘conspire'” is as natural as it is to be human. It happens constantly and to lump those who point out direct evidence of such things is not the same as the ‘degrading catch-all’ which is thrown out to discredit anyone they disagree with [without arguing the facts] is simply to engage in conversation stoppers and a maligning of another’s conclusions.
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Yes – I think we got that point.
By the way – I don’t envy you with your choice for next President of the U.S.A. It’s a choice between a foul mouthed fornicator and a sinister communist.
The big question is not so much who will win (they’re both a disaster); it’s rather why the Republicans couldn’t have found a better exponent of small-government conservatism and why the Democrats couldn’t have come up with a less sinister left-leaning candidate.
Which way to vote – do you prefer to die by hanging or from the pox?
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We’ve had scurrilous folk as President before and survived it fine. If we were voting for a person that would make the choice harder . . . but in reality we are voting for a platform, the people they will appoint to govern with them and who will be the Supreme Court justices. That makes the choice easy enough for me.
BTW, you left out that the sinister communist is a bisexual fornicator and mean as a snake; possibly a murderer but definitely one who has driven others to suicide in the past. Ambassador Stevens had no chance with her covering his back.
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Scoop – your point of view is very modern. Historically, loyalty has always been to a person, not to a platform or ideas. For example – in the Swedish reformation, those who were killed in the bloodbath of Linköping (1600) had sworn loyal to the person of Sigismund and maintained it; it wasn’t loyalty to some abstract platform (such as the Catholic church).
In the movie Katyn, the professor who is sent to the Sachenhausen concentration camp and is killed there could have escaped his fate, but didn’t, through loyalty to the university Principal who had no choice over his fate. (imagine! Is there a single university vice chancellor these days who could possibly inspire such loyalty? or are they all now bureacratic managers?)
As far as the Christian faith is concerned, again, it is not loyalty to abstract ideas or some sort of ‘platform’; it is trust in, and loyalty to, the person of Jesus Christ.
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I wonder, if in this age of instant information and disinformation, anyone of the past would be of sufficient character as to rally a nation behind them. We had rakes, cheats, cronyists, and narcissists in office throughout our short history and yet the country withstood them and they rarely get all of what they want; after all, we are not set up to be a totalitarian state.
Therefore, I vote for what is being advocated to be DONE and the sincerity of their advocacy for certain things that the people will take note of: for if they do not at least try to get them done, they will be 1 term presidents. The last person who inspired loyalty and seemed to be principled in a very Christian way was probably Reagan. But there were others who were principled in a Christian way that were miserable failures in their administrations [Carter] or mediocre such as the Bush presidencies. So it goes . . . sometimes principled people shine and sometimes they don’t.
It is amazing that this country hasn’t already fallen under the immense weight of the Obama regime . . . though much of the impact has not been felt yet . . . history may still label him the worst President this country ever had. It is his administration that has fomented great hatred for politicians and for one another. So he will have a legacy of sorts . . . only he won’t like the way he’ll be portrayed in the history books.
That brings to mind a modern marvel of sorts; how has been elected when nobody seems to know him from his past? He is an enigma to us and our press has never found out much about him. We know more about presidents from centuries ago than we know about him. How was he given the ability to silence all but a few of his acquaintences in life? It is surely a mystery. Someday, I suppose, his alma maters will have to at least release his school information. But for now it is locked away like a precious gem.
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Say good brother Jock, what language are you trying to learn? And what does it matter? Everyone speaks English now a days. Universal language used to be French. But who cares about France? Its nothing but a worn out tourist trap.
Go Trump.
Let keep those beans from sliding under the tortilla curtain en mass.
So what if he kissed girls. Hes not a rapist.
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Polish. You’re quite right, of course; they all speak English.
The main problem with Trump is that he has a tendency of opening his mouth and letting his stomach rumble.
Did you ever read ‘Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail’ by Hunter S. Thompson? There was a brilliant cartoon by Ralph Steadman on the front and back cover. On the front, it showed Richard Nixon talking into a set of microphones. The picture continued to the back cover, where he was blowing off with savage ferocity into another set of microphones.
I’m not sure what Hunter S. Thompson would have made of this campaign – it was probably too ridiculous even for him.
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