Before I converted, Anglican (and Catholic) friends warned me that if I was expecting to find brotherly love and amit, I’d do better not becoming a Catholic. I recall one friend, a former convert who reverted, telling me that as an Anglican I had no idea of the bitterness of the divisions within the Catholic Church – there were, he told me with some vigour, even those who did not think the Pope was much of a Catholic. That Pope is now a Saint, and yes, there are still Catholics who don’t think he was much of a Catholic, even as there are those who don’t think there has been a licit Pope since Pius XII; for all I know, there are those who would argue that the See of Peter has been vacant for longer than that. He was, of course, correct, and that was, of course, irrelevant. The Church is the Church founded by Christ, it has a Magisterium which is authoritative on matters of faith and morals, and when it pronounces on these things it does so with the authority of its founder. Do I think it ought to pronounce more on x or y; do I wonder why it does not say that this or that politician cannot receive communion because they support abortion; do I think it ought to take a firmer stand against this or that thing I think is evil, and which even I can see runs counter to the teaching of the Church? That is a bit like asking if I am human. Of course, I feel these things. But then who am I to judge my bishops and priests? Do I know something about these things or these people that they don’t know? Or might it just be possible they know more than I do?
My good friend ‘Scoop’ has forcefully argued in the comments boxes that:
teaching the faith to the best of our ability is our calling. Should an RCIA teacher (a layman without any formal teaching) do their best to follow the catechism and teach others what is expected of a Catholic? Or should he simply say that it is all up to your own discernment? We really don’t care if you teach the gospel in season or out of season. If it is unpopular you can still be a good Catholic by just keeping your mouth shut and agreeing with those who hold positions that run afoul with the teachings of the Church . . . i.e. don’t make Catholicism hard on you, find a comfort level with the world where you won’t be criticized or chastised.
I am unsure that the dichotomy in the second and third sentences is a real one. Of course all Catholics should do their best to live the faith, and by their example, if nothing else, witness to what it is to be a Catholic. But is there an alternative to one’s own discernment in the end? Are we to assume that those who fail to live up to what our own discernment and our expectations are not doing their best? It seems to me that the reluctance of the Church to censure individual politicians may just be the result of its greater wisdom in these things. Of course it is hard to see how bishops and priests could possibly be in a better position than those of us who read websites and newspapers and see things with our own eyes – away with such faithless shepherds, they are hirelings who have sold out to political correctness. Are we then, alone, and those who agree with us, the only ones who get this right? What effect do our words have?
We can get some example from the reaction of traditionalists to Pope Francis’ strictures. There is little sign that his words prompt anything by way of a rethink, and every sign they prompt further anger with him. Is it to be supposed that non-traditionalists will react is some morally superior way when they are called ‘cafeteria Catholics’ and go ‘goodness me, yes, they are right, thank you?’ Yes, it is true that the Church Fathers sometimes used harsh language, but then one bishop even punched another – are we going to say that we think that is a good way to witness in our own time? If we are to be known as his by the love we bear one another and that were used in evidence to convict of of being his followers, how many of us would be sure of being convicted? As one often on the receiving end of criticism for my conservatism from what I might want to call neo-traditionalists – that is those ‘spirit of Vatican II’ Catholics who want to go further down the liberal road – I also find myself criticised by those who want to close down such avenues. Each side is convinced of its moral rectitude, each side criticises the other. Where has it brought us? What good has it done to the cause of witnessing to the Gospel?
Do such disputes, when conducted in harsh language, do any good? If so, it is hard to find the evidence. Since at least Vatican II some of those in the Church have been calling each other the same things, and it is difficult to see that anyone has been convinced by the other. The mote in the eye of the other is always clearer than the beam in our own (especially when we are convinced we have rid ourselves of it). We all struggle, and I think we all do the best we can according to the Grace we have. I may well think that those Catholics over there are falling down on the job, or even not very good Catholics, and I may well be able to find chapter and verse for these views in the catechism, and I may well tell myself that what I say is inspired by love for their souls. I may also tell myself that I am doing what my priest or bishop will not do because they are politically correct cowards. But then I recall what Jesus said to the teachers of his own day about putting heavy yokes on others, and about the need to love even your enemies, and what St Paul said about the characteristics of love – so I suffer a little longer. As I hope for mercy, I shall give it, and I shall be judged by the judgements I make. Only God’s infinite mercy through the blood of Christ can save me; in that I am no different from everyone else. So I shall leave the name calling to those who are convinced it does good.
I think that you have made a red-herring out of the original post and comments. Where you conjur up in our minds wild crowds pointing fingers and yelling ‘sinner’ at one another. That was not the case nor the gist of the article you wrote nor the comments that were made. Monsignor Pope did nothing different than make an assessment that can easily be made by anyone familiar with Scripture; especially that we see about Laodicea in Revelations:
14 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the origin[a] of God’s creation:
15 “I know your works; you are neither cold nor hot. I wish that you were either cold or hot. 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17 For you say, ‘I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing.’ You do not realize that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. 18 Therefore I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire so that you may be rich; and white robes to clothe you and to keep the shame of your nakedness from being seen; and salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. 19 I reprove and discipline those whom I love. Be earnest, therefore, and repent. 20 Listen! I am standing at the door, knocking; if you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to you and eat with you, and you with me. 21 To the one who conquers I will give a place with me on my throne, just as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 Let anyone who has an ear listen to what the Spirit is saying to the churches.”
That seems an apropos reminder in all ages but especially relevant in our own. We have become ‘comfortable’ in our Catholic lives. We do not confront the world nor, on a whole, work to develop the virtues. Few are found to defend the teachings of the Church against the lies of the world. I could go on. We find ourselves in these messes throughout history when people become cultural Catholics rather than practicing, believing Catholics. It applies to all of us . . . not some mythical left or right that you are now turning this into.
My comments could best be read as introspection and if I read the monsignor correctly that is how he wrote his piece and what the spirit of the piece was intended to convey to the reader. That you took it to the level of civil unrest and name-calling seems to say more about where you find yourself in all of this rather than the sober assessment that Pope meant to convey to all Catholics of any stripe.
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I’m missing something. In your first comment you say that Msgr Pope’s comments are aimed at us all, and yet as you go on to point out here, the comments about lukewarmness are aimed at a particular church. They are spoken by the direct command of God. It is the presumption that we can speak in that way which worries me. You quote, rightly, strictures from God via an angel. That seems to me in a different league from, say a site like Rorate laying down its version of what is and is not Catholic.
I cannot quite grasp who the ‘we’ are who have become ‘comfortable’? From what standpoint is any one of us to make such a comment about us all? If the person making the comment is included in it, why take him seriously? Maybe he is getting uncomfortable and wants to make the rest of us share his position? At the very least, what is sauce for the traditionalist goose is so for the liberal gander. Those who get upset by the Pope’s strictures, do they thing again and amend their attitude, or do they, as in the examples I provide, rail against him?
From what standpoint is any of us qualified to say that ‘few defend’ the Church? To say that implies that the person saying it knows better than those with a charism from God; that is where I see a want of humility and docility. Again, who judges who is a good catholic and who is a bad one? Is that really the province of a layman, or indeed, of any of us? If it applies to all of us, good, but in that case, humility suggests we should shut up and amend our own lives before daring to comment on others and call them ‘cultural catholics’. Do you not see you are making a judgment there? Of course we all do it, but it is up to our fathers in God to say who is and is not a good Catholic.
Still, it may be you think Rorate also includes itself in its strictures and that there are no liberals or conservatives – that last appears to be what you suggest when you write about .mythical left and right’ – if it is mythical, it doesn’t exist. Are ACTA and Rorate myths?
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i am not naive to the existence of left and right . . . far from it, as you well know. I and you and any other Catholic who has the smallest understanding of the Catholic teachings knows immediately that Pelosi, the Kennedy’s, Biden, et al are [or were] creating scandal as public figures that professed their Catholicity. We know that is not true and if you wish to not trust your lying eyes in such matters that is for you and your individual conscience to sort out. Balancing fortitude, with prudence (for instance) is at times a difficulty unless one feels compelled by their conscience to react in a certain way. But prudence without fortitude quickly turns to cowardice and a comfortable place where one idly sits by as evil gains the upper hand. Take his piece as you will, C. I don’t think that those of us who have lived these past 50 years (whether lay or ordained) have done a very good job of putting up a fight outside of a few folks who cried out to a predominantly dear world.
Speaking of Rorate: they had a very good piece reprinted from Pope Saint Pius X that has much to do with where we now find ourselves. Or, because it was reprinted by Rorate, are you loathe to read or contemplate its content? http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2016/08/the-prophetic-words-of-pope-st-pius-x.html
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On the individuals you mention, yes, as I say in the piece, I am apt to draw similar conclusions to you; where we may differ is that I am less inclined to think that those in the Church with a responsibility to take the decisions over whether these people should receive communion are acting from considerations of pcness. Might it not be they know something we don’t know? Why the need to think you are right and know more than they do? There might be private considerations of which you and I know nothing? I feel less able to rush to judgment here than you appear to be comfortable doing.
I find the tone of Rorate unfortunate, but when they stick to what Popes say without the need to offer us the benefit of their snide comments (or do you think their comments on the current Pope do not fall under that heading) I’m always happy to read.
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You will find as many hierarchs in favor of excommunication and/or denying communion as you will that condone it. So I don’t know how you make an assumption that the ones that do condone it know something nobody else knows. In fact JPII gave permission to withold communion from such pols but alas few have done so.
And do you find all of Rorate’s criticism of this Pope unfounded? Or is their growing evidence that all is not right with the direction that this pope is now leading the Church? Is the Soros connection and his penchant of holding up those who promote homosexual agendas etc. just a fiction or does it really exist. Are the people of Chili happy with their new bishop and should they simply keep their mouths shut? I only see it as a mess that has been forged by the confusion that has multiplied three-fold from where we were at Pope BXVI’s exit from the throne. Do you find us in a better place?
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I am making no assumptions, but it seems you are in supposing that those most directly responsible are not acting for base reasons; or are you not supposing that?
I take my spiritual advice from my Church, not a website with a very biased agenda, and one which, moreover, will not accept comments which do not go with its line.
I read the Soros material and see nothing in it which suggests he has the slightest influence on the Church; if you have evidence he has, then you have more than the sites I have read.
If you know of a time when every country was happy with its bishop, again, you know more than the historical record attests to.
I would simply say that I believe the Spirit guides us where we need to be as a Church, and am content not to place my judgement in His place.
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I’m supposing nothing. I am only cognizant that the most liberal pastors and bishops [who defend these pols] are the one’s that find them acceptable Catholics. It is a simple deduction of facts if you look at who these men are and what they have said in their own words. I simply find that 2+2 usually equals 4.
I take my spiritual advice from my Church as well and find that certain people who are identified as being ‘the Church’ are diametrically opposed to those who were ‘the Church’ in the past and who are also ‘the Church’ today; men like Athanasius Schneider and Cardinal Burke for instance plus a host of good pastors like Fr. Z or Msgr. Pope. If they all spoke with 1 voice and their voice was the same as the Shepherd of the Faith then all would be quite easy to discern. But that is not the case. I cannot listne to a Maradiaga and a Schneider and not have an opinion between the two . . . for they are at odds with one another.
And yes, I would say that the people of Chili knew the man who became their bishop far better than did the Vatican that was far removed from the well-known scandals the man was linked to. There was a time that even a hint of scandal would have been enough to disqualify a candidate. Not so anymore.
You seem to think that when bad people do bad things that the Holy Spirit is in charge. I don’t buy it. If so, which of the bishops and cardinals is being led by the Spirit and which are not? And how do we decided . . . unless we think the Spirit has two plans operating simultaneously which are opposed to each other? A house divided comes to mind.
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Again, not knowing the men of whom you speak as you appear to, I cannot comment on their motives; it always amazes me when others manage to know what is in the hearts of men they have never met or conversed with or indeed know outside of the media; it is a gift I lack.
Is this not coming quite close to saying that one prefers x set of bishops to y set of bishops, with one set being good catholics and the others not? As I say, I quite lack the ability to make windows into men’s souls. it is a marvellous gift and I envy you it.
If, as I believe, and the Church does, it is indefectible that does not mean that bad men cannot do bad things, but it does mean that it work for the greater good in the longer run – Arius, for example, produced Athanasius and the orthodox definition of the Trinity. That is what I mean when I say the Spirit guides the Church – what do you mean when you say it?
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So for you both the pastor who refuses to commune the offender and the one who does are both right because you are afraid to make a judgment . . . even though the positions of many of these persons is known. All men have a trail of teaching and action that they leave. You don’t have to be a boy scout to find their footprints.
If one say x is a teaching of the Church and another say that x is no longer a teaching of the Church somebody is right and somebody is wrong. You can make up your mind as to who is right . . . though I prefer the Catechism of the Church. I need not have a window into a man’s soul for that is concerning God’s final judgment on every man’s soul. I can only decide if what the man says or does is causing good or ill, glory or scandal, clarity or confusion among the people. That I can do.
I believe, concerning the Arius example, that indeed God brings to a head the seemingly insignificant corruption of a truth to show the Church the depths of where that small error might lead. But it always culminates in a painful purging so that the Truth might once again shine forth without the corruption that was introduced by poor thinking or by love of our own delights or senses. I think we are in the end stage of that corruption at present and that a great purge might be expected for we are long overdue.
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No, not making a judgment is just what it says. I know nothing about the priest of Ms Pelosi’s parish church, or her bishop, or what he’s been told, neither do I know anything about the interiority of their souls nor of Ms Pelosi’s. That’s why I refrain from criticising them. Ms Pelosi is another matter, she’s a politician who makes a point of saying she’s a Catholic; it is perfectly in order to point out that he support for certain measures conflict with the teaching of the Church.
Is it really always as easy as x used to be a teaching now y is? Take the view that there is no salvation outside the Church. That used to be read as meaning unless you were a Catholic you were not going to Heaven (although, of course, never as all Catholics go there); now the Church says it is only by being a member of the Church you could be certain you had the fullness of the faith and what follows. Some would say the Church has gone back on what it used to teach, others that it has explained it further. That example could be multiplied. Of course, to those who wish to read it as showing the Church has resiled, that is how they will read it; it does not mean their reading is correct.
I doubt anyone would doubt that purgation is necessary, constantly, or that it is ever anything but painful.
Where we perhaps differ is that I see no reason to suppose we are in any sort of end stage. History is long, we have gone through many phases, some when men might have been forgiven for thinking the whole world had gone heretic. Yet the Church perdures.
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So since it’s introduction, the present Catechism is in now in doubt and can be accepted or rejected at will because ‘no salvation outside of the Church’ has been refined (not changed)? You would equate that with those who would marry 2 men or 2 women, have women priests and find that any contemporary issue can be justified if you examine it long enough?
The situation in my mind is that we are trying very hard to avoid having a purge . . . though they are necessary. Again that is a ‘comfortable’ attitude that seems to think that things will just quietly work its way out all by itself without any pain or suffering. If it does, I will certainly be happy that it happens but my experience in life thus far seems to deny that this is at all possible.
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Since were were discussing truths and half truths in the context of the teaching of the Church, I picked on an example which some say shows that we no longer teach what we used to to show we do. I had not thought to include things the Church has never taught.
In terms of ‘purge’ I am not quite sure what is wanted. Were the Pope to ‘purge’ certain conservative bishops, I doubt that would meet your approval, though it would of some – and that’s my point about avoiding labelling others. When purges happen it is not always those one might want to be purged who go.
I don’t know these Christians who think things will work out without pain or suffering. It doesn’t sound as though they have much experience of life. Again, I am simply unaware of these ‘comfortable catholics’ – last time you were saying they were all of us, now they seem a subset of that?
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I doubt seriously that any purge will be begun within the Church hierarchy as you suggest. I think that our decadence will end up in our persecution and abandonment by those who were Christian in name only. What will be left is those who believe to their dying breath that which Church stood for and believes. That type of purge is easy to anticipate. For in countries where the faith was forbidden, only the most holy and devoted, risked their life and limb to keep their underground faith alive. The comfortable will leave for it is no longer a comfort zone to be associated with the faith. I do believe that some of the emptying of the pews presently is the start of that purging.
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I should have thought that anyone who was Christian in name only has gone by now? In what way would it profit them to claim to be a Christian? Even in your own country, where that matters far more than here, Mr trump feels himself free to criticise the Pope and say very little about his faith; as for the other one, least said soonest forgotten.
The Church stands for a lot of things, and the social justice lobby are not without merit in pointing out that our society has not done what the Bible suggests it should for the poor. They have taken it further than I would, but it is equally arguable that their’s is a reaction to the Church spending too much time in the past of the side of the wealthy and powerful.
Again, I don’t know these people who feel ‘comfortable’ belonging to a Church for the sake of it. What advantage now lies in such a line for them? A puzzle, and I wonder whether they are not something of a straw man you are beating?
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I thought that as well when I became a Catholic. But then even after JPII said no priestesses they have hung around for a new and more understanding pope. That is a problem today . . . people think that the truth has now become negotiable and can be lobbied for.
Trump defended himself from an obvious attack by the Pope which had never been done by a Pope before in this country. His meddling in our election was rather strange. I suppose Trump had a right to strike back though it wasn’t a smart idea to do so.
And how far would you or the Pope like us to go in social justice? At one time it was about our govt. allowing child labor, then about providing schools, then libraries, then welfare, healthcare etc. How much should govt. be willing to give? Should we all be equal and all have an equally dismal outcome in life or will we decide that everyone who has less than I do is poor . . . though our poor lives better than most kings did 100 years ago. Now with disappearing national boundaries it is no longer our own countrymen that our government is concerned with but with the people of other goverments. I hear nobody giving those dictator’s the business for their neglect of their own people. How much of every person’s salary should be spent to be spread by the beneficient UN or Obama or whomever to those who are needier than we are in our own country? I don’t know what the answer is but I do know that the whole economic sense of this is preposterous since we are actually broke as is Europe. We are borrowing more money that we make. It is untenable as it is. What would make Jesus happy? That we should all starve or perhaps that we try to teach others to throw the oppressive regimes that ruin their lives off of their backs? I don’t have an answer . . . I only know that the progressives, socialists, communists, peronists, and marxists have failed the people of the world far more than did any democratic republic . . . even with the horroble specter of cronyism. After all . . . it was the cronies who built our railroads, oil wells, cars, etc. and once even bailed out a broke US government. Even horrible people sometimes do good things that benefit us all.
I can’t explain what comfortable Christians are any more than I already have C. But if you don’t get it, you don’t get it. The only straw man that was beaten here was the one you set up between conservative and liberal which was not even mentioned in msgr. Pope’s article. He was clear and you only muddled up his thinking into some kind of abstract. I think you were looking too hard for a bogey man and missed his entire point. No need to belabor this . . . I think we have probably both used up more of our time that we wished at this point. 🙂
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The other way to look at it (and you know I agree with you entirely on the issue) is that there are some Catholics sincerely convinced that the Spirit wants us to ordain women and they wish to continue to advance that case. If that is what their consciences tell them, what are they to do other than what they are doing? We, and the Church, continue to say no. We can’t, I think, expect people whose consciences tell them they are right to shut up because the Church says they are wrong. We can, and should, expect them to accept what the Church says, and we can, and should, be critical when, after yet another report on women deacons saying ‘no’, they keep banging on. But we should not forget that they are our fellow Christians whom we are bound to treat with respect – and at least try to love; do I manage that with these people? No, no I don’t, they annoy the heck out of me – but that’s a cross to bear and a sacrifice to offer up. If I adopt their attitude then I am no better than them – that is if I treat them the way they treat me.
The Pope is simply doing what you would want in pointing out that it is not Christ-like to build a wall against refugees, or helpful to talk about them as Trump does. But there lies the problem with this Pope, When he agrees with people they align him with their political camp.
As your Government, like mine, is a secular one, it is under no obligation to follow Church teaching on anything. That is the job of the Church. How far should it go? Is there a limit? Did Christ say we should care only for those within our boundaries or only for deserving refugees? Did he set a limit on how many we should take? No, no more than he told us what the money supply should be or what interest rates to set. There is a general obligation on us as Christians to help the poor; that seems not to be qualified by the adjective ‘deserving’; but perhaps I err?
You will get nothing but agreement form me on the subject of the uselessness of socialist regimes, and for all their faults (which are many) a moderated capitalism seems to me the best we have managed by way of governing.
As you admit, there are liberal and conservative Christians, so I don’t see it as a straw man, but as a fact. It seems equally clear that ‘comfortable Christians’ refers not, as I think you said, to us all, but only to some of us. Do you suppose anyone would own up to that description? If not, then it is a divisive one in which one of us calls the other something to which, were we called it back, we should object. 🙂
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I readly accept the fact that Msgr. Pope is speaking to me. He is prodding me and my conscience to make a difference and to be part of the solution rather than indifferent to it. I would hope the article was read the same way by others as well. 🙂
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Except elsewhere in your comments you appear to admit he is talking to a subset of us all. That you and I may feel we are part of that subset does not mean he is speaking about all of us. It seems to defy the sense of the piece to think he is. If so, all he needed to do was to say ‘we are all comfortable Catholics’. I do not see how it can be read that way.
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As long as there is but a single Padre Pio alive then, yes, it is a subset . . . if that makes you happy. Though that is not how you assess a nation or a society or a Church the size of the Catholic Church. You speak in collective terms as to the overall state of the group, nation, union etc.
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Indeed, but if you are making distinctions within that group
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Again, I don’t think anyone did.
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If you’re making distinctions within a group, you’re not referring to the whole group. You may read Msgr Pope as referring to everyone except the sole Padre Pio, but that is a forced reading.
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I always assume that this world has a few saints whether known by the world or unknown. I don’t think that is forced just an observation that the message will be heeded by some in every age and there will always be holy souls in Mother Church.
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It is not the obvious reading of his categorisation of some as ‘comfortable’, or of yours. If you think many Catholics are lukewarm, it’s fine to say so – as it is for me to wonder how, by appearances alone such a judgment can be made.
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The state of affairs is the proof that it is true. That would be like denying that Obama wouldn’t have been elected if the Catholics did not deliver the vote for him for instance. We only need to see the movements in society where the Catholic and simply Christian values have been ignored. Somebody was asleep at the switch. And it is not a jump when we have exit polls that show that Catholics have consistently for years supported issues, ideologies and candidates that were and are inconsistent with the faith. That is rather well verified judgment of the known facts. It has now put religious freedom in the crosshairs and seems quite likely that this right will soon be lost or at the least degraded. I personally think that if we get another 8 years with the progressives that it will most likely be lost for good. I could be wrong but then my track record on what Obama would do turned out worse than I predicted.
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It is, I think, one of the downsides of American influence that anyone thinks that any one political candidate is somehow more Christian or Catholic than another; in the UK this is not an issue at all. I dislike what Obama stands for, but then I dislike much of what Mr Trump stands for, as I did Mr Bush’s foreign policy, and things such as Guantanamo Bay. If we insist on candidates whose whole platform matches that of the Church, we vote for no one – and so cannot complain whoever gets in.
I am deeply sceptical of the Church and politics. It had a huge influence in Ireland, and it is by no means clear it helped either the Church or the State. The result now is that the majority of the Irish are rejecting the Church, largely because of the way the sex abuse cases were handled, but also because of the way the Church exercised its influence. Gladstone described the Church’s rule over the Vatican States as the ‘negation of God erected into a system of Government’, and the Church has a poor record where dictators like Franco and Salazar are concerned.
I agree with you on the results of the democratic process in your country, but it is that, the will of the people.
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If there is a downside to American elections, it is that we expect and almost cannot fathom the idea that they are coerced, rigged, bought and paid, miscounted and thoroughly corrupt from primary to election. We don’t like to hear that and we are not likely to look at the problems seriously until we start looking at the anomalies and force our politicians to provide safeguards. That said, I agree. Most folks I know do not vote for a personality (though a majority of folks do) . . . the last two who were voted in due to charisma were Reagan and JFK. It happens rarely. What I vote for is the principles as stated in the platforms. For instance there are no paragraphs in the democratic platform concerning abortion; the republican platform has devoted a number of paragraphs to this barbarity. We also vote for who is likely to fill the roles of advisors, staff, secretary of state etc. Then we look to judicial picks that they are likely to make and the economic policies that are likely to be made. So when I support Trump over Hillary this November it will not be remotely because I am voting for a man but because I am voting for a set of things that this man will bring into office with him and against the things that Hillary will bring in tow.
I am not talking about Catholic intervention in politics . . . and right now, I suspect that the Church would push for progressives rather than conservatives anyway. I am calling on individual voters both Catholic or devoutly Christian to look to the values and principles that they hold before pulling the lever. But, alas, most people who identify as Catholics, seem to have the same principles (or lack thereof), that the rest of the country has been manipulated into accepting [having control of education is a powerful weapon in elections in the future of a country].
A normal person cannot run for office in this country . . . the cost of the run is beyond our reach. It is a recipe for great corruption and indeed that is why we get the type of folks we often do. We have recently started to look very much like the south and central american political scene of the 50’s where tyrants ran for office and rigged elections; thus the spectacle of a coup of the week to be covered by our press. I hope it doesn’t get that bad . . . but we are well on our way, sadly.
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I don’t disagree my friend. On Trump I would say only one thing, which is that to my mind the greatest danger facing us is Russia (yes, Romney was mocked for it at the time, but he was right back in the day) and on that Trump is dangerously wrong.
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I would fear Hillary more in regards to Russia. She and Obama have allowed him to show his bluster and bully his way around parts of the world. Trump will not have progressives in those areas . . . and a strong military along with resolute positions in international affairs will go a long way to tamping down the bullies of the world. We won’t get that from Hillary. You will get another 8 years of Obama or worse.
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To be fair to Hillary, she seems to have learned that that was a bad idea; Obama already knows it all so can’t learn anything, and Trump is another one of the same ilk from a different store 🙂
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She’ll be playing with the same chess set as Obama . . . not so much Trump . . . he will draw on others that are not in the familiar progressive camp.
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Trump’s attitude to Russia worries me. He seems to admire Putin – a dangerous man. That said, I’ve little time for Hillary. It is sad that your great country (still for me the greatest triumph of our civilization) has to choose between two such people. If anyone needed to underline your earlier point about politics being somewhat broken, pointing to the two of them would be a shorthand way of proving it.
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There is no doubt that this is the strangest election on the books and that the two candidates are probably the least qualified people we have ever had to run for office. But thanks to our constitution, Presidents do have their limitations in what they can do . . . as long as we don’t start letting the courts legislate or keep allowing presidents to use their executive orders in ways that were never intended. That is danger here . . . a corruption of the balance of power in our government which was a stroke of genius by our founders. Alas, they have gradually found ways around it and we stand at a precipice where tyrants might be born and elections suspended should it continue. A complicit congress has allowed this . . . and thus the disdain that the people have for politicians at the moment has raised a man such as Trump who has not the talents that we expect from a politician . . . because he isn’t a politician. It is a last ditch effort by the people to send a message that politicians might take to heart. If you don’t want a Trump then do what you promise and quit caving in to the bully pulpit powers of the president no matter how much pain he can send your way.
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I hope someone gets that message. The outlook is grim, I fear.
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The only think more grim would be if Obama declared Martial Law and suspended elections. As a personality type, I think he would do it if he thought he could get away with it whilst preserving his own skin. I doubt that is the case since he failed at disarming the populace.
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He knows he can’t get away with it – which is possibly the only reason he doesn’t do it.
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I agree but he has stated publically that he could get elected again which I thought was a feeler put out there to see the reaction of the people . . . an FDR moment. It got no traction whatever. Of course, in the future, there is always Michelle . . . . if you want to get really sick about a possible run for the Whitehouse.
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Having abandoned an hereditary system, you seem to be reembracing it – you have to be Bush, Clinton or Obama! Given me the Queen 🙂
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It’s true, my friend. We seem to be making royalty everytime we elect someone these days. The Kennedy’s seemed to get that ball rolling and now we have th Bush clan, the Clinton clan and, God help us, we might end up with an Obama clan. I’d take your Queen Elizabeth over a Queen Hillary or a Queen Michelle any day. 🙂
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I am sure we’d welcome an application to rejoin the Empire 🙂 But seriously, yes, a sad decline from the days when the likes of Harry Truman retired and lived on his pension, which I think Ike did too.
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Indeed. I’m inspired to sing:
Boy the way Glenn Miller Played
Songs that made the Hit Parade
Guys like us we had it made
Those were the days.
Didn’t need no Welfare states
Everybody pulled his weight
gee our old LaSalle ran great
Those were the days
And you knew who you were then
Girls were girls and men were men
Mister, we could use a man like Herbert Hoover again
People seemd to be content
$50 payed the rent
Freaks were in a circus tent
Those were the days
Take a little sunday spin
Tonight I’ll watch the dogers win
Have yourself a dandy day that cost you under a fin
Hair was short and skirts were long
Kate Smith really sung the song
I don’t know just what went wrong
THOSE WERE THE DAYS!
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Very good 🙂
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Scoop – I don’t want to get into the Catholic specifics, because I’m not a Catholic, have no intention of becoming one and I don’t want to get into the dogfight.
But there’s a lot of truth in what you write if you replace ‘Catholic’ with ‘Christian’.
I would say that a ‘cultural Christian’ who is not a ‘practising believing Christian’ isn’t a Christian at all.
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Again Jock, a simple point, some may feel able to make such comments on their fellow Christians, lacking a standpoint beyond my own sinful state, I prefer to leave it to those whose spiritual state equips them to judge others.
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Jesus tells you that your spiritual state enables you to judge others. Furthermore, you’re neglecting your Christian duty if you don’t.
The statement from Matthew 7v1 ‘Do not judge, or you too will be judged’ taken in isolation, would seem to preclude all assessments, both negative and positive.
The command clearly does not mean we cannot show discernment; immediately after “Do not judge,” Jesus states “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs” (Matthew 7:6) and later “watch out for false prophets. . . . By their fruit you will know them” (verses 15–16). Clearly, there is an assumption that we have the ability to make judgments on doctrines and deeds, to tell right from wrong.
From a Christian stand point, truth is objective, eternal, and inseparable from God’s character. Anything that contradicts the truth is a lie; calling something a ‘lie’ is to pass judgment. To call adultery or murder a sin is likewise to pass judgment.
Jesus also says, ‘Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead make a right judgement’ (John 7:24). He calls upon us to make right judgements.
Abolutely nowhere do I see him stating that ‘making judgements is above your pay grade – leave it to the priests and bishops’; absolutely nowhere do I see him saying that we shouldn’t be judging those with ‘pastoral authority’. Indeed, he seems to be exhorting us to judge the scribes and pharisees (namely, those higher up the hierarchical order) and if they are anything like those whom he spoke about, we are expected to conclude that they are wrong.
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It is with reference to the spiritual state of another that I was writing. Your Spirit may indeed give you the insight into the heart of another, mine fails to do that. I am not, of course, talking about the obvious sins of others, but rather about their spiritual state.
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Then we are in agreement. After all, King David was an adulterer and a murderer – precisely the sort of fellow whom I would have dismissed as a thoroughly bad fellow – and I probably wouldn’t have believed his claims that he had repented either.
We don’t know what God ultimately has in mind for others (bishops and priests do not know this either); we are called upon to call sin for what it is.
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I agree Jock, and being mindful of my own state, I most often call it in myself – so I can recognise it elsewhere. But most Christians I know struggle, and they do the best according to the Grace they have. Your comments about King David are most apt. Scripture is a wonderful treasure chest which so often defies our expectations.
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Yes Jock, I could very easity have said Christian rather than Catholic as it cuts accross all lines. Few people take religion seriously these day as poll after poll indicates: attendance at Church is at an all time low for those who profess to be Christian. I can draw conclusions from that but C, it seems, finds that he doesn’t feel qualified to make such an assertion though the empty churches and increasing scandals are rather hard to ignore.
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It seems here you are making a judgment not on those who don’t go to church – after all that needs no judgment – but on those who do. If not, why say ‘those who profess to be Christian’. If you go to Church and you say you are a Christian, then you are you, or who am I to say ‘you simply profess to be a Christian?’ The implication would be that one considers oneself a ‘real’ Christian. Our Lord seemed quite harsh on those who made such judgments.
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Well, foolish me, I consider Christianity not simply showing up once or twice a year or accepting the easy teachings without accepting the harder teachings. To be a Christian has always been work; hard work. If you are comfortable in your Christianiy [as the world gives comfort] then it is doubtful that you have bought into or accepted all of what Christianity implies. Our comfort is found elsewhere . . . in the spirit; in faith, hope and charity . . . in every word that issues forth from the mouth of God. Christ does not offer us peace in this life but gives us a sword . . . not a literal one very often but a sword still to confront the enemy at his every turn. If we won’t use it is there any reason to expect that the enemy keeps winning most of the battles?
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No, what would be foolish would be to say that those who go to church are not good Christians, which it seems to me is the underlying implication of the comments? Is that not so?
I am also confused about the comfortable Christian label. A moment ago you were telling me that Msgr Pope meant us all by it, now you seem to be accepting my reading, which is that he meant a sub-set of us all. It can’t be both. I am in no state to comment on whether others are what you call ‘comfortable’ with their faith. Again, that seems to me to arrogate to oneself an ability to judge the spiritual state of others which I quite lack.
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I think he speaks to what we all know and have been saying here all along. That since VII few parishes and priests, nuns, bishops etc. have done a good job of teaching the people what the faith actually says and what we are to believe without question. But since, he as a minister of God, is responsible for some of this ignorance, he probably feels more responsible than those who do not attempt to learn the faith or who think that they can be Christian without accepting certain teachings of the faith. We are all to blame. We have become comfortable and our pastors have become uncomfortable in teaching the harder sayings of our faith. Is that a misconception on my part? I have only heard 2 or 3 sermons on abortion, 1 on masturbation and sex before marriage, 1 on homosexuality, none on SSM etc. Yes, there are so few examples I can remember the exact number of these. So do the pastors deserve to be bundled up with the rest of the ‘comfortable’ Catholics? Indeed they do. They do not like confrontation any more than the rest of us do. And that is how we all seek our comfort levels and that is a big part of why we will eventually, if we travel this path to its logical end, will find ourselves outcasts [or secularists] in the future. And we know that the outcasts of society are the ones who will suffer persecutions of all types . . . perhaps even tasting martyrdom. It is not inconceivable when things have degenerated in our society as fast as they have during these past few decades.
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A number of reactions here. In the first place, if he has failed hithertofore, why should we now think he is correct? Again, I can’t speak for others as you appear to be able to. I am far from comfortable with either the way the world is, or the way the church is, or indeed my own self. It may be that you are correct and the church is full of these ‘comfortable Catholics’, but not being one, and not knowing anyone with the kind of depth of knowledge that would enable me to comment on their spiritual state, I can’t, alas, follow you into saying what is true of ‘us all’.
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I am sure Laodicea had a few good people as well. There are always some due to the fact that here we are speaking of the Church that will overcome the gates of hell. The cancer is not going to kill the patient but medicine is called for and the first step is to recognize that we have cancer and seek treatment. If you want to pretend that there is nothing to treat and that the whole body is being weakened by our reluctance to even admit that we are in need of strong medicine then we will make ourselves as comfortable as we can until we can no longer ignore the facts.
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Again, I am specifically not commenting on individuals. If you are saying that the Church has not done nearly enough to show what it means to be a Christian in this world, I am in full agreement. What medicine did you have in mind?
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Abandonment to Divine Providence, God’s Will rather than the will of the world, Truth rather than half-truths, God’s praise rather than the praise of men, eyes fixed on heaven rather than the appeasement of the world, peace of soul rather than peace with the enemy of the soul. You?
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In which case, why the need to call others ‘comfortable Catholics’? You seem to me to be assuming that our Pope and many bishops are afraid to preach the truth and that their eyes are fixed on appeasing the world. That seems a great judgment to take on oneself with only the evidence of the newspapers and the media.
From my own point of view, it will be time enough to pronounce of the spiritual state of others when I reach that blessed stage of feeling I can.
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When my parish priests and bishops start speaking the truth then it will be obvious . . . for they will be malined by the press and the pews will start to thin out even more than they have now. Nobody wants the hard teachings and you know that I am right about that and you also know that most priests are scared silly to cause any dissention among their flock. So anything goes and I have seen with my own eyes how far things can go when ‘good men’ say nothing. It is a common enough problem that I would think that the UK would have its share as well.
You keep throwing around the ‘judging’ label as though to speak the truth of God is to judge everyone. Or to oppose the things that God has ordained a judgement on those who accept these ideas. God will judge them and all of us. There is also, if I might remind you, judgement on those who could have done something but failed to do it: sins of omission. Its a precarious life being a Christian. But it is one that takes courageous leadership to inspire others to lead such a difficult life. If you think that monsignor Pope overstepped his bounds I would only say that we disagree because he was doing what the Church mandated he do: remind us of the choice we made when we decided to deny ourselves, take up our crosses and follow Christ.
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Again, which ‘hard teachings’? Few seem to be prepared to love their enemies and to turn the other cheek so it can be struck, or to carry the burden laid on us by an enemy further than we have to? Is there not here an element of selecting what you think are the hard truths and not others which may well be equally hard?
Are you not judging others? God will judge, he can do that without our help, as he will when he gets to us.
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So we struggle with things. What is your point? You try to equate enduring pain and suffering at the hands of an enemy to quietly sitting around and watch unjust practices explode throughout society. We allow our children to be subjected to disgusting teachings about morality and sexuality by our schools. This is what silence delivered us. Refusing to act as a slave or a punching bag for another does not carry such widespread repercussions with it.
Oh God will judge and as said before he will not only judge what we have done but what we have failed to do. You seem only worried about the first whilst I am obviously worried that we are called to actually do something to stop this errosion into the sewer.
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Did anyone say we should sit quietly and watch unjust practices spreading? If so, it was not I. We live in this thing called a democracy. No one is obkiged to send their child to a school if they can provide their own education, and I think you greatly underestimate the independent mindedness of children. The more anyone preaches an orthodoxy at them, the more they rebel.
I am not second-guessing God. He will judge by standards I cannot.
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He will indeed. Though nobody here nor did Msgr. Pope, judge any person or specific group of people either . . . but he did give us a good overall idea of the climate that has permeated our society and our Church . . . a climate of letting the next guy fix it or we simply throw up our hands and say with great remores, can’t we all just get along? The longer we wait to fix what is broken, the bigger the job it will be. I think I’ll leave it for the next guy for I don’t want to insinuate that anyone is actually, personally at fault or acting in complicity. So you can blame me for the mess . . . for I give up seeing as though I can’t fix it. 🙂
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Do you not see that calling another group of Catholics ‘comfortable’ is labelling a group of your fellow Catholics? If it isn’t that, what is it?
If we each of us fixed ourselves, we’d have no call or reason to comment on the shortcomings of others – we’d be concentrating on those of ourselves.
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True enough but then collective salvation seems to be all the rage . . . and implicitly endorsed by more than a few of our own clergymen.
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There is a point about collective salvation – even if it isn’t the one some make 😄
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Not sure I fully understand your joke. 🙂
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It’s another example of trendy thinkers misreading what the Fathers say about us being saved within the Church; these same people would run a mile if you told them they were effectively saying there is no salvation outside the church. Well, it amused me 😊
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Thanks for that . . . you lost me with that one. 🙂
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We are at risk of tearing ourselves apart if we insist on labelling each other. Even terms like “orthodox” make me uncomfortable these days – people mean different things by them. I can’t speak to the situation within Catholicism, but I understand the irenic spirit that C is hoping to promote (for which I salute him).
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‘We are at risk of tearing ourselves apart’
You mean like old Oedipus? (when he realised what he’d done, he tore his eyes out one by one)
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I was thinking of St. Paul’s admonition in Galatians 5:5 “If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.” The Wheat and the Tares also come to mind. It’s not our place to pull people up by the roots.
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Ah – my error – I noticed the reflexive ‘ourselves’ and misinterpreted it.
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As my father would say, “vagaries of the English language”. You’re Reformed aren;t you, Jock? Are there similar discussions to this one in Presbyterian circles?
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Probably – but I don’t have a Presbyterian (or Baptist) church nearby, so I don’t follow what is going on these days with church politics (any denomination). When I did attend a Presbyterian church, I was happy with what the minister in the church I attended was doing and I tried my best to ignore what was going on elsewhere.
I think that if you have a good tone from the pulpit, then you find that people either conform to it or else they get out, so you don’t really have the problems that Scoop is talking about over whether or not to permit someone to take Holy Communion.
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I’m inclined to agree with that assessment. Preachers who “play it down the line” make it clear how things stand and that deprives people of the ability to hide in ambiguities.
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Of course, when I make a judgement about the minister, I simply judge that what he is saying makes good Spiritual sense and that the way he does his job (preaching and pastoring) together with everything I can see about his life is commensurate with the Christian calling.
I can’t judge further than this, but Scripture makes it clear that I should judge on these matters.
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Thank you Nicholas.
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Well, I call it as I see it. It is important that we all do our best to preserve the bond of unity as far as is practicable. There may come a time when persecution returns to the West and changes the situation in the churches, but for now we need to be careful to support one another and to have honest conversations. In this respect, I think we ought to be doing more to find “neutral” resources that can help us have those conversations with people.
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“Which bishops are guided by the Holy Spirit and which not”?
This sounds very familiar to Boscos knowledge of who possess a new Spirit and who does not.
I do not think the uniformity in the faith is found in any church, tradition or the history of its magisterium as it is claimed by some. We all make judgements about truth and hold to the opinions and interpretations that make most sense to each of us.
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I’d agree entirely Rob. It seems to me a most spiritually perilous course to suppose that one can judge the state of faith of any bishop or priest. I dislike this modern habit of assuming others act in poor faith whilst attributing one’s actions to one’s own good faith, and then taking offence when others act as you do them and assume you are acting in bad faith.
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Then a Catechism is a complete waste of time and effort and nobody should ever read one.
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Well, I’ve never read one, but I’d dispute your statement that it is a complete waste of time. I have the Catechism by John Paul II on the bookshelf. It looks quite smart on the shelf, along with other unread books (for example, the complete works of Aristotle).
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Well they are thick enough that they can be used as a weapon of defense if you chuck it at an intruder. 🙂
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Could I ask you about Catholic catechesis? Never having gone through it myself, I have a very limited idea of what it is like. Is discussion a part of the process? Obviously some things can only be taken on faith, but am I right that students are encouraged to try and understand things to the best of their ability?
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Depends on the parish, the diocese and in some respects the time frame you are speaking about. In modern times is was traditionally done with the aid of a catechism that taught the faith . . . usually and exposition that is based upon the creed. Each point of faith was then elaborated upon and discussion of those points was encouraged so that the person might incorporate its belief more fully. Today there is a tendency afloat to have what they call a Lectionary based catechesis. This would center around the readings from Mass for the next Sunday. It neglects teachings quite often and is more like a Bible study of whatever was read. There is no way that this could work unless one read the entire Bible over the period of time that is given to learn the faith. Many, and I shudder, spend the entire hour or hour and a half discussing endlessly what each person thinks themselves without giving them any inkling at all what the Church actually teaches. Catechesis in such parishes are abysmal and the failure rate for those who enter the church is rather high.
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That is helpful and would explain part of the problem under discussion. When I became a Christian I had a mentor for a time and we were able to discuss things and he sent me to places where I could look these things up for myself. I learned about the core doctrines and as time went on I have learned for myself the various “positions” regarding certain points of doctrine.
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How so?
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Although you can’t judge his ultimate salvation, you can certainly judge whether he is spouting garbage or not.
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Indeed, as he can about me. I, of course, and right, and he, of course, is an idiot; which is what he thinks of me 🙂
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I think that if you got on to specific concrete issues, rather than dealing with abstract principles, you’d discover that you both saw eye to eye.
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Religions.
At least good brother Scoop is honest enough to say that the CC is one big fat scandal after another. While the devotees stand there and say that their church is led by the Holy Spirit. It keeps them from waking up screaming in the middle of the nite. What most fail, or don’t want to mention is, that the catholic org has always been a corrupt murderous gang disguised as a religion. Lift up the the cover and you will find that the CC and its prices are knee deep in human trafficking.
All the while Jesus stands at the door and knocks.
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prices is supposed to read…princes.
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I am sure you are going to provide us with a quotation from the National enquirer showing this human trafficking Bosco.
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Oh yeah. The clergy is not involved in the lucrative trade in humans sex slaves. Wake up man.
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If you would kindly provide evidence. Otherwise, keep the tin-foil hat on and avoid taking your meds.
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A former Ohio seminary student who pleaded guilty to trying to adopt and buy baby girls in Mexico so he could sexually molest them was sentenced in San Diego Friday to more than 15 years behind bars.
In April, Joel Alexander Wright, 23, admitted to seeking sex with infants he
wanted to adopt from Tijuana. He will serve 188 months in federal custody, the office of U.S. Attorney Laura E. Duffy, of the Southern District, confirmed.
Source: http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Joel-Wright-Sentencing-Ohio-Seminary-Student-Seeks-Sex-With-Babies-in-Tijuana-385235391.html#ixzz4IoEzNlcV
Follow us: @nbcsandiego on Twitter | NBCSanDiego on Facebook
These seminarians all know each other. They live together. Don’t embarrass yourself by saying this is a lone wolf. They all feed on flesh. Just this one got caught. all of them do it. Priests of graven images and a queen of heaven. Everything god hates. This is the religion you settled on when you went religion shopping. Good choice…Bozo.
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Let me get this straight, one former student in a seminary wanted to do this and this, in your hands, becomes evidence everyone is involved? I do hope you don’t work anywhere where an ability to weight evidence and think clearly matters. You worry me sometimes.
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I have worked where ability to think clear saves lives. Have you? I doubt it. Don’t try jiving me on my ability. I don’t worship a queen of heaven. But you do. Wake up my brother.
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No, but I have been responsible for helping educate people.
No one worships a Queen of Heaven, you know that, if, by worship, you mean looks to such a person for salvation. You act like a freshman science major on this subject. Honestly Bosco, most here wonder why I bother trying to educate you. You seem wilfully ignorant. Why is that? I think it is because the devil fears that if you get at the truth you will be a truly formidable foe for him, so her prefers to fool you. I’m sorry for that, because the devil is right, if you came to the fulness of the Truth you would be a deadly foe for him where, now, you unwittingly play his game.
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The CC is guided by the Holy Ghost.
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Jesus said His Church would be guided by the Spirit. If you don’t agree with him, you need to correct him next time you talk. But then you believe only those bits of the Bible which fit your prejudices I fear.
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The Holy Spirit does guide his body.
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And Jesus founded the Church on the rock of Peter’s faith. He said that Church would not fail. You seem to be saying Jesus got it wrong.
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His body is good. He chastises those he loves. Jesus church doesn’t bow befor the works of men hands. Get a grip my brother.
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So where is the Church Jesus founded, Bosco. You have been told so many times that bowing does not equal worship, and yet you keep repeating it. It makes you seem very stupid Bosco, which is a shame, because you aren’t. But you seem to have little ability to think about things.
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“There are no words to describe the horror that might have happened, had an innocent baby been placed in this man’s arms,” Duffy said in a statement in April.
Wright, a former seminary student at Pontifical College Josephinum in Columbus, Ohio, had plans of becoming a priest.
ibid
If he didn’t get caught, you would be eating Isis Horus and Seth crackers out of his hand. Many don’t get caught.
Let not your heart be troubled. Jesus stand’s at you door and knocks.
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As you ought to be educated enough to know, IHS is a Latin abbreviation; you are educated, are you not?
As you also ought to be clever enough to understand, every organisation has within it those who succumb to temptation. To smear a global church on the basis of the failings of an individual seems odd. You believe in the devil, well, were you the devil’s adviser, would you advise him to concentrate on places where God is strong or places where evil already rules? Not really hard to see is it?
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Ahhhhhahahahahaha. The more perverse and wicked the CC is, the more it shows how godly it is. The Devil attacks those men of god and makes them rape infants. The Devil shouldn’t have outta done that to those devout men of God.
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No, that is not what I wrote, Bosco. I wrote that the devil is going to attack where God is. What do you think the devil does – other than hang out in California with the potheads?
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The Devil sets up graven images for idolaters to bow befor. Then he sets up big religions for people to think they are saved by joining. Then his priests feed off the flesh of the devotees, like he does in your Satanic religion.
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An idolator is, as you must know, someone who worships an idol. Bowing is not the same as worship. When I was introduced to Queen Elizabeth II I bowed; she did not think I was worshipping her, I was not worshipping her, and it you think I was, then I suggest you need to exercise your thinking muscles a bit more.
Jesus set up a Church. It is still here. It would welcome you, but Satan keeps you blind and acting as though you are rather stupid. You aren’t, but being under the influence of satan might be why you seem so. You do realise that most people here think you are a bad joke? That’s a shame, as I see more to you than that, and God’s Church would gain in you a fine soldier.
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Satan keeps you blind and acting as though you are rather stupid.
I commend you on your steadfastness to your heartfelt religion and your desire to see me saved thru it.
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Far from it Bosco. I spend a great deal of time in prayer, and even more exploring the history and the practice of the Church. I am far from blind to the shortcomings of those who are part of it and those who run it. But no one in it worships statues, no one in it thinks Mary will save them, and no one in it thinks that bowing to a statue equals worshipping it. Those things are believed only by you and a few others. You must know it is not true, so why keep repeating it? You look and sound stupid, and you aren’t.
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You forget I know Jesus personally and have learned at his feet. What I tell you is what I know from knowing the creator of heaven and earth. You seriously think his religion included graven images? Do you seriously think his priests are the most vile child molesters and drug runners and human traffickers? You can feel free to ask Jesus to show you himself.
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Again, Bosco, I simply ask you for where Scripture says that Jesus will tell us all we need to know and that we will have no need of the Church he founded.
We know that God commanded the Israelites to decorate the great Ark of the Covenant with images. Perhaps you don’t have that in your Bible?
Out of the 12 people Jesus himself chose, one betrayed him and, at the moment of crisis, the rest ran off.
As I have told you, Jesus guided me to his church. I am not going to argue with him.
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We know that God commanded the Israelites to decorate the great Ark of the Covenant with images
Get back with me when you can be realistic. Maybe some Mary in here can correct you, and them maybe they wont. Lying is the stock in trade of Satanic cults.
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Yes, we do know that Bosco, and I can see that as you have no argument left, you have to retreat to name calling. The only lies Bosco are the ones you tell, and as you say, lying is satan’s stock in trade. I shall pray for you to be enlightened and to escape the blindness he enshrouds you n.
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Say, how about asking Jesus what to do? Don’t listen to Bosco. Get on yoyr knees and ask Jesus to show himself to you. What the hell is wrong with that?
You believe Jesus is there for you. Ask him to show himself.
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I did, long ago, and he guided me to his church.
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Oh geeze. Well, I cant say anything. I used to think a dragonfly was going to wisk me away to Jupiter. Your church is a snake pit. How come you cant see that? Oh gee man. Freakin aye. God reached down and pulled me up out of the sewer. Why…I don’t know. But I know him and we go our rounds. Its better than not knowing him. Good brother Chalcedon,…you might as well take those beads and do a Robin Williams. They aren’t going to get you into heaven. But you will wake up in hell expecting some female to save you.
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You are still unable to understand what is being said to you Bosco; were I you, I should ask what was getting in the way.
I am saved by the blood of the Lamb in the Church founded by the Lamb. You, and few others, may be the last people on earth to believe we believe Mary saves us. But then, Bosco, this has been said to you so many times that you know it. So what is it stops you from admitting it? The answer seems to be to be satan blinding you. That’s what he does to powerful spiritual warriors; he wants to keep you from the church, so he fills your brain with so much mush that you cease to think clearly. You repeat these tired old mantras from the distant past like so out of date ‘speak your weight machine’. It is to that that satan reduces you. Wake up Bosco.
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I admire your steadfastness. You would make a great warrior for Christ.
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I do what I can with the Grace that is given to me. What I don’t do is to repeat old discredited untruths, and it saddens me that you do. No sensible or well informed person believes Catholics worship statues and think Mary will save them.
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Get me off your word police. What are you scared of?. Is Jesus scared of the spoken word? Your scared because of the truth. Darkness hates the light. Do you feel the need to protect Jesus own religion? Jesus is a big boy. He can defend himself.
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Scared of what Bosco? What gave you the impression I am scared? I am in the Church Jesus led me to, it is the Church Jesus founded. It has survived every event since the Crucifixion, and it has always had those who slander it. It has outlived them all, as it will you. You can never say in your defence that you were ignorant of it or that no one tried to straighten you out.
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Let me know when you stop cowering behind your reject button.
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I have no idea what gives you the impression I am cowering. I know Jesus personally, he led me into the Church he founded. You say you know him and you learnt from him. Did he tell you I worship statues? No, that was you telling yourself, or you believing a lie. You know that Bosco, and one day you will come to a better understanding than you have now – I pray for you, as ever.
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Do you seriously believe that old claim that Jesus founded that Reign of Harlots?
Jesus stands at your door and knocks
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Jesus said he founded a Church, it is still here. Jesus led me here when I answered his knocking, Bosco. Should I ignore him and follow you? Jesus tells the truth, you tell untruths, obviously, rather childish ones than no one with any education believes. I shall go with the Truth and leave you, sadly, with your untruths.
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Oh heck, Bosco has discovered that we’re all involved in human trafficking. The game is up.
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It is. I think someone leaked the info – shall we go to Plan B?
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