Yesterday’s post on Women Deacons attracted a great deal of interest. Whilst declining to get into a discussion with an ‘anonymous blogger’ (she meant pseudonymous, but let that pass), Professor Beattie felt the need to comment. As I pointed out in the comments, it was indeed Fr Lucie Smith who mentioned African women, it was she who felt the need to tell us what they really thought when men were not present; Fr Lucie-Smith simply confined himself to telling us what they say in public. It is a feature of a certain sort of progressive that they promote their own opinions by telling us they are those of the marginalised on whose behalf they purport to speak; this simultaneously signals their own virtue and implies that opposition to that view is a form of discrimination against the marginalised; sanctifying their own position, it demonises that of their opponents. It is one of the reasons that our public discourse has become so problematic. A liberal/left so convinced of its moral superiority finds no problem demonising its opponents; they are not simply incorrect, or mistaken, or ill-informed, or wrong, they are evil. If you doubt that, go to Twitter and follow the way Corbynistas refer to ‘Tories’. Human nature being what it is, those being demonised will respond in kind.
We see a not dissimilar process in disputes between Catholics sometimes. Those secure in the knowledge they are speaking on the side of orthodoxy can get very shirty with those who promote heterodox opinions; this is, I suppose, several steps up from feeling the need to delate them, imprison them and get the State to do unpleasant things to them. Once heterodoxy ceased to carry such risks, those holding such opinions felt emboldened to express them, and having been badly treated so often by the orthodox, they learned to respond harshly. Indeed, despite the fact that no one could accused the English and Welsh bishops of conservative tendencies, liberal Catholics still seem to feel they are a persecuted minority. I have lost count of the number of times I have been told about the terrible persecution of liberals by the “Panzer Kardinal’ Ratzinger, usually by people who deny the tenets of the Creed and reject the teachings of the Church on celibacy, abortion and a number of other issues; these same people dominate the local church, freely express their opinions without challenge, and on the rare occasions anyone raises a question, they are slapped down. In contemporary discourse, of course perception is all, so if you feel yourself persecuted, you are. In such a hall of mirrors, both sides feel persecuted and therefore aggrieved, and therefore entitled to speak of each other in terms which are, to put it mildly, unappealing – quite often citing the insults that the Church Fathers hurled at each other at various Councils. This clearly makes people on both sides feel better about the tone they use. It should not do so, because we see that in many case such language led to schisms and persecutions. Have we not moved on beyond this?
We do not, I fear, seem to have a language in which we can hold each other in respect whilst disagreeing profoundly. I was much struck, when listening to Fr Copplestone debate Lord Russell by the respectful tone used by each man. One hears it still when men like Rowan Williams debate, but one hears it too little. If, as Christians, we cannot sufficiently distinguish between what we think are erroneous opinions and the individual advancing them, we’re not trying hard enough. As Catholics, we should also remember that there is a defined teaching of the Church which should be respected and obeyed, but also that people are allowed to ask questions without having the charge of ‘heretic’ hurled at them; if those of us holding an orthodox position do not care for being called ‘bigots’, we should return the courtesy to others.
That it should be necessary to labour such an obvious point is a sign of how uncivil our society has become.
Yes – I was also struck by the civilised tones of the Copleston – Russell debate and I said as much on the blog run by Servus Fidelis (now known as Scoop)
https://allaroundthewesternfront.wordpress.com/2016/08/03/copleston-russell-and-the-empty-philosophies-of-men/
I don’t think Copleston won; sure, he exposed the moral bankrupcy of Russell’s position (but Russell was already aware of this), but to my mind, he failed to present any reason why his own position was any better.
You’re right that the tone of theological debate nowadays does often degenerate to the same level as ‘The Scottish National Ballet Supporters’ from ‘At Last the 1948 Show’, but that all seems to be part of the charm, doesn’t it?
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I agree Jock. I thought it something of what I believe is called a ‘score draw’. Your description of the general tone of theological debate made me chuckle, not least because of its accuracy.
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I recall back, I think, in the late 70’s reading an analysis of the troubles in Northern Ireland. The proposition was that both communities, Nationalist and Unionist, perceived themselves as embattled minorities. One group because they actually were a minority within the existing borders and the other because they felt in imminent danger of becoming one since they lacked faith in the UK’s will to preserve the Union. Faced with existential threats each group adopted intransigent survivalist strategies.
Broadening the argument to contemporary debates. Everyone seems to believe that they belong to an embattled minority of one kind or another and nobody has any faith in ‘the system’ as a neutral arbiter or defensive shield. As a consequence intransigent survivalist strategies are the new normal. All of which makes for a gloomy outlook.
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Good thoughts – if, as you say, somewhat gloomy. At some point society gave ‘victim status’ a privileged position, which is no doubt why everyone wishes to claim it. I can see huge problems arising from the way the police are likely to deal with ‘hate crimes’ which are defined only by the perception of those who feel they are the victim of them.
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Combatting all this from both sides in my discussions with atheist and Christians on another site.
Rather that addressing views and beliefs both sides begin generalising by attributing wrong motives to all (which they cannot know) and start making personal attacks on one another. This results in more heat than light. I am beginning to win favourable responses from both Christians and atheist of good will.
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Rob – if I may ask, on which site are you engaging in these discussions?
I think that attributing wrong motives and making personal attacks isn’t a million miles from what Paul had to put up with (of course, he didn’t have the internet back then).
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I notice that the Catholic Herald has followed the Telegraph in no longer allowing on line comments – that will drive a few of the obsessives there somewhere else – hopefully not here.
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I saw that as well, and hope it doesn’t presage the kind of regression we saw in the Telegraph, and doubt that it will. It is a bit troubling, though, it tends to increase the distance between a publication and its readers. I agree, hopefully not here, though, and I do understand why they felt compelled to do so.
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I’d guess they simply got tired of some of the nonsense from the usual suspects – as ever, a tiny minority screw it up for the majority.
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I think so too, but it does have some dangers, but I think they’ll watch it.
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I agree – and apart from anything else, where will the trolls go? Speaking of which, no sign of Bosco recently.
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None at all, he must have gotten bored.
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Not as bored as we got 🙂
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Very, very true 🙂
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Good to hear Rob – and you describe the process only too accurately – alas.
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Just a quick note here, the bones of a similar article ran through my mind last night as I fell asleep, very glad you wrote it, it’s far better than what I was thinking, so thanks. 🙂
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Glad you liked it Neo – and sorry I scooped it 🙂
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I’m not, it didn’t gel well enough for me to wake up with any coherent thoughts. 🙂
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