One of our commentators, Annie, reminded me that Cardinal Burke would disagree with my post yesterday because he is firmly of the opinion we should be ‘afraid of Islam’. It is always with huge reluctance that I find myself at odds with a Prince of the Church:
“There is no place for other religions…as long as Islam has not succeeded in establishing its sovereignty over the nations and over the world,” Burke said in Hope for the World.
“It is important for Christians to realize the radical differences between Islam and Christianity in matters concerning their teaching about God, about conscience, etc.,” said Burke. “If you really understand Islam, you understand that the Church really should be afraid of it.”
“Islam is a religion that, according to its own interpretation, must also become the State”
I was reminded of the reaction of some Protestants to my own Church here, not to mention the reaction of some Catholic traditionalists. I am not terribly sure that either group would necessarily agree with the Cardinal that teaching about freedom of conscience is something on which the Church has majored; Protestants would say this in one type of anxiety, remembering the fires of Smithfield, whilst traditionalists would say it with another form of anxiety, remembering fondly the days of the index of forbidden books. Quite how ‘radical’ the difference between our two faith is, historically, in matters of freedom of conscience and the right of people in a State to dissent from Islam/the Church, seems to me a more vexed question than the Cardinal allows for. St Pius IX would not, I suggest, have concurred with him on that issue.
It seems to me that Cardinal Sarah gets closer to the truth when he talked about the dangers of fundamentalist Islam – but it ought to be noted he also referred to the dangers to be apprehended from the ‘mentality of the secularized world and individualistic West.’ It is not from Islam that the dangers of ‘”gender ideology”, and groups like FEMEN and the LGBT lobby’, come, which, he argued ‘leads to the “subjectivist disintegration in the secularized West through quick and easy divorce, abortion, homosexual unions, euthanasia”.’ It is surely closer to the mark to identify extreme forms of Islam as the danger we should fear?
One commentator on yesterday’s post thought it a product of wishful thinking and directed me to a lecture by an American Muslim professor to put me right. I listened with interest, but remain uncertain what it was supposed to put be right about, as he did not seem to be saying anything vastly different than I was, which is that whatever dangers are to be apprehended from individuals purporting to be speaking in the name of Islam, we should beware of doing them the honour of taking them at face value as the main representatives of Islam.
It might, of course, be that I am guilty of wishful thinking here, and if so, it would be interesting to know what those who think that would counsel in terms of how we live with the millions of Muslims in our countries, the vast majority of whom seem to me to have interests very similar to those of most of their countrymen and women in terms of life, and do not appear to be bent on allying themselves with Jihadists. Were I an advocate of that sort of Western ‘freedom’ of which Cardinal Sarah was so critical, I suppose I might think somewhat differently. I might look across Europe at the tactic of filling the population gap left by mass abortion and contraception by mass immigration, and wonder whether my faith that religion was in decline was going to be justified when so much of that immigration comes in the form of people who take their faith very seriously. As a Catholic, I might legitimately wonder why my own Church appears to be less effective at getting its people do do likewise – but that is another debate for another time.
Once upon a time, everyone within a kingdom or empire had to have the same religions views as the ruler. Dissenters were liable to be expelled or executed. I understand that once Costantine became a Christian, he allowed people be whatever they were but that wasn’t taken up worldwide.
In the UK, before joining the EEC, I understand that wizards and witches were not allowed practise their “arts” except on the Isle of Man by royal decree.The Isle of Man (pre EEC also) used put people in stocks for minor offences and employed the ‘cat o nine tails’ for major ones.
In the Republic of Ireland, equal rights were promised to Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter and enshrined in our constitution.The situation of Catholics in the six counties was dire with massive discrimination practised against them whenever possible by the unionist majority. When they started demanding equal rights in the late 1960’s, all helll broke loose. People were burned out of their houses and flooded over the border to the Republic much like the refugees from the Middle East today. Many never returned and made their homes in the twenty-six counties.
Over a further 30 years of murder and mayhem achieved little except festering wounds on both sides. The back room and front page “general’s” built lucrative political and other careers out of the bloodshed. It took a few brave prople to call it what it was and propose peace. Among those brave people were wonen who formed the “Womens Peace Movement” and David Irvine of the PUP. We now have an uneasy peace in the six counties which is tested anually by Orange marches and parades, rows over flags and occasional harrasments and murders. There are still “peace walls” separating communities, much like Israel.
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Yes, alas, what you say is so, and of course, at the time of the independence of Eire, many Protestants found themselves driven out. We have a pretty poor record as Christians, and may need to be careful before we cast stones at others.
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Many left of their own accord as they were fearful for their futures and brought their goods and chattels with them. Others stayed and were retained in the civil service etc. Most large businesses were in Protestant hands (and still are) as the Catholics had been systematically impoverished by the Penal Laws and decimated by famines and emigration. The civil war which followed independence was more vicious than anything which had gone before it.
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Very true Annie. I have some family friends whose grandparents felt they had no choice but to leave – the burning down of their ancestral home seemed a cue to go.
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Yes, many noble houses were burnt to the ground. Others had such heavy rates imposed on them that the residents were unable to retain them
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Of all the sins to which we are inclined, revenge is one of those with the worst results.
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We had a friend who led a relatively small Charismatic fellowship in N. Ireland during the troubles. Some government officials met up with him to observe what was going on as though not a large movement the depth of reconciliation they experienced was impressive. They hosted meeting where perpetrators of violence from both sides had come together as brother in Christ. Eventually he had to leave N. Ireland due to threats from forces that were opposed to the reconciliation he was encouraging.
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Fear Islam. No I don’t think we are ever called to fear. Perfect love does away with that last I heard. That said
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I think we should approach Muslims with the truth and realize that they do not possess it.
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Good recipe, Joseph
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One of my sisters went to Saudi Arabia in the late 1970’s. She was in Iran at the time of the Shah’s deposing and replacing by the Ayatollah Khomeini. She just about escaped with her life. Her view was that as the general population in SA and Iran got an education the area would become extremely volatile.
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The problem in Iran seems to be that that last has not happened. SA, who knows?
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A friend’s brother worked in SA in the 80’s He worked as a psychiatric nurse and used like to keep fit by doing some jogging. He knew he had to cover up his arms and legs and did so. It was pointed out to him however, that it was unfitting for a grown man to be running about – only children did such things.
He had brought his wife and small children with him and they lived in their own house. While he was away at work, a neighbours teenage son used come to visit and just sit smiling at her. When a deputation of the neighbours came to their house and enquired what punishment he would like to have meted out to the young man, they packed their bags and came home.
St Charles de Foucault, pray for us.
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Although the majority of Muslims are good and peaceful people I think the situation is somewhat worse than you may think.
In terms of our response our first duty is the preaching and demonstrating the gospel to Muslims. I’m sure many would welcome and be encouraged in times that are also difficult for them by simple greeting when passing in the street “Hi Hope thing are going well for or Hi have a good day”. It just might mean more to them than we can imagine and who knows where it might lead to. I always try to speak kindly to any Muslim man I pass by.
The following notes (over 10 years old) were taken at a lecture by Jay Smith who leads a Christian ministry mainly directed towards radical Muslims whom he describes as his friends and considers them to be the authentic Muslims.
How UK Muslims Define Themselves – Responding to the Radical Muslim Challenge post 9/11 – by Jay Smith:
How Muslims in the UK Defined Themselves Pre 9/11 and the Iraq War:
15% Radical: They follow the scriptures and the prophet and consider themselves radical.
70% are nominal Muslims following the traditions and cultural adaptations of Islam.
15% Liberal Muslims followed western culture and assimilate – they dislike the Quran and are escaping it in the west. They claim Islam is a religion of peace and having rejected the Quran are trying to repackage their faith.
How Muslims in the UK Define Themselves Post 9/11 and the Iraq War:
25% of Muslims surveyed considered themselves radical. Perhaps now as many as 43% considered themselves radical. However this is a guess as since the last survey Muslims in the UK have not wanted to carry out any more surveys.
Percentages of Radical Muslims in Other Nations:
Turkey 31%
Morocco 45%
Jordan 51%
Pakistan 65% i.e. 80 out of 140 million!
Radicalism is not limited to insignificant numbers there’s many groups, violence is spiralling upwards. The book ‘In The Shade of The Quran’ is a standard for radical Muslims. Radical Muslims claim that suicide bombing is justified when resisting forces greater than their own.
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There is certainly no doubt that since 1979, and especially since 2001, more Muslims have come to see the West through the lenses of radical Islam.
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I know one Muslim doctor who has married two Christian women and has six children between them. Both women had to become Muslims and are now scrupulous about following every directive and ensuring their children do too. This is how one religion is being supplanted by another.
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Take courage –
“This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached to the whole world then the end shall come”. As is said if you read the end of the book the Lord our Saviour wins.
Most of us now have Muslims living close to our doorsteps it provides a great opportunity for the gospel.
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Lately I have kept up with reading most all post here. I have not been commenting regularly as I have spent more time engaging with atheists on other sites.
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That is s better use of your time Rob – here, to some extent, it is preaching to the converted.
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When I have spent some more time at it I will try and put together a post of my experiences here.
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That would be extremely interesting, Rob.
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Sadly she died in 1982 so I no longer can call on her for explanations about Sunni/Shia etc. She had no respect for the rulers of Saudi Arabia who imposed their religious views on everyone.
There were two types of police – civil and religious. Men and women had to cover their arms and legs as well as their bodies. If they didn’t, they were whipped and had a purple dye sprayed on the offending parts She used have to wear a burka if she ventured outside her compound and you had to have a man with you or you would be insulted. Drivers had to be hired also as no woman was allowed drive outside the compound. Bibles, rosaries, holy images or anything unIslamic would be seized at point of entry to the country. Anything of Jewish manufacture was also forbidden so no Coco-Cola or Marks and Spencer goods etc etc. My sister used be able to get Sunday Mass in Saudi Arabia secretly thanks to a priest who was there to work as an engineer. Times of Masses varied for security reasons and we’re spread by word of mouth only as he would have been expelled if discovered.
Thanks to the wealth of nations which Saudi Arabia is flush with from sales of their oils, they have not only purchased a great deal of media and valuable properties in the West but have also exported their variety of religion Wahabbism worldwide and are currently involved in the slaughter in the Yemen.
The West, being beholden to them for the oil to fund their economies are not going to stand up to them any time soon, barring a miracle.
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Here in Christian Barbados (???) any woman without a suitably high neckline and her arms covered will turned away from any government establishment and not served.
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Praise the Lord for confounding all by coming to mankind through the flesh of a woman and being nurtured at her breasts! All hail, blessed among women are you, Mary!
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Quite true, Annie, and yet that too can change if the US manages to think things through. We have become the largest producer of oil (Russia is second last I Iooked) and we did that without exploiting our government lands. The USG holds a huge percentage of our western lands still. And the Bakken formation is huge, from Western Dakota to Glacier Park, and Canada down into nearly Colorado, Texas is much the same. Our lack is refining capacity more than anything.
There are reports that SA is flooding the market now, in hopes of driving our production capability down. It could work, of course. But SA is not getting the good press here they used to. Too many Wahhabi Mosques preaching violence, and their involvement in 9/11 (may or may not be governmental, not enough solid information) is starting to get attention. Not from the USG, of course, but the people are getting a bit restive, as in many areas.
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I was shocked to find out recently how heavily SA is invested in Fox. That was truly worrying – but, in a way, not really surprising.
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Interesting. The fall in oil prices, and the instability of the Middle East may beginning to chance the balance here a little.
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If the USSR could collapse, if there could be regime change in Northern Ireland and South Africa, anything is possible 🙂
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Very true, Annie – we live in ‘interesting times’.
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