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Christianity, controversy, God is love, love, Salvation, sin
‘Religion’ sometimes gets a bad name – even from those atheists would consider religious – and sometimes it’s not hard to see why. In response to my post on God being love, our friend ginny responded with a list of the ‘attributes of God’, as though in some way something theologians from her church had written could in any way qualify what the Beloved Disciple had written. He did not write ‘love is one of the many attributes of God’, he told us God is love. He knew that as humans that word meant something to us, as Jesus knew the word ‘Father’ meant something to us. So, to suggest that in fact, you need a 553 page book to understand the ‘Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma’ is no doubt true, but to suppose that has anything to do with knowing Jesus as Saviour is just the place where ‘religion’ gets a bad name. For those of us (and I am one of them as readers will know) who enjoy a good theological tome, such things are interesting to read, but we make the sort of mistake of which Christ accused the Pharisees, if we place such things in the way of the spirit of God’s laws. I doubt not that the Rabbi and the Levite had good reasons in terms of ritual uncleanness for not stopping to help the man who had fallen among thieves, and anyone familiar with Jewish purity laws will know that is the case; but God is love, and love meant not telling the poor injured man that there was a higher good than tending to him, it meant tending to him. It did not mean not healing a blind man because it was the Sabbath, love meant healing him when the opportunity presented itself.
As far as I can understand it, the distrust of love evinced by ginny and others who have left here stands on the ground that those of us who will insist on it, are saying that there is no Judgment. This is simply wrong. There is Judgment. It will be Christ who judges us. Some have an understanding of Christ which seems to me to be taken from analogies with medieval monarchs, and they see what we would think of as cruel punishments, and they say this is the just reward of sin. Some of us have a less anthropomorphic understanding of God’s justice. We know that the thoughts of God are too high for us. We cannot begin to think that if we had an only son we would hand him over to cruel punishments and a terrible death and to suffer for sinners, yet we know God did just that. So we stand back in awe. Those claiming to know how the Infinite God who did that will judge us all, are, of course, welcome to the claim, but I do wish that they would recognise that their own Church is a great deal more sophisticated in answering questions about hell than they seem to be.
Section 1033 states that hell is “[the] state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed.” Note that – ‘self-exclusion’. Yes, Revelation talks of a lake of fire, but it is a figure of speech, not a literal reality, it describes, in all probability, how it feels to exclude oneself from God’s love. We have the free will to do that, and no doubt many will do just that, they know better than God himself. For my own part, I know God loves me, and I love him, all else follows from that. Those who need a Father who will punish them unless they behave, have an understandable human need, coming from very obvious places. But they should not mistake their vengeful father for the God who is love; nor should they be frightened of love, for it is in love that the whole world is redeemed. Christ’s message is one of hope for us all. I simply fail to get to first base with the idea that somehow we can be terrified into being good Christians by the prospect of burning in hell for all time. What sort of conversion is that? It seems to be a vision of God as a sadistic headmaster watching all we do and deciding at the end how long we need to spend in detention. I’m not sure who would even like such a being, let alone love it – neither am I clear why such a being would sacrifice its son for us.
The first Christians did not need 553 pages of dry theology to get the Good News is that we are saved if we believe in Christ – nor do we. Too often, alas, religion in the form of rules and regulations, becomes a substitute for a loving and living relationship with the God who desires us all to come to him, because he loves us. Perhaps the saddest thing for me of some of the reactions to this sort of statement, is the realisation that that sort of love seems foreign to my critics. In meeting God, I know His love. I had assumed it true of all Christians; is it not?
All Along the Watchtower 
The relevant part of the Catechism of the Catholic Church is, I think, this-
1827 The practice of all the virtues is animated and inspired by charity, which “binds everything together in perfect harmony”; it is the form of the virtues; it articulates and orders them among themselves; it is the source and the goal of their Christian practice. Charity upholds and purifies our human ability to love, and raises it to the supernatural perfection of divine love.
1828 The practice of the moral life animated by charity gives to the Christian the spiritual freedom of the children of God. He no longer stands before God as a slave, in servile fear, or as a mercenary looking for wages, but as a son responding to the love of him who “first loved us”:
If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a7.htm
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Thank you. I’m never sure that the English ‘charity’ is an adequate description of the Latin ‘caritas’, which carries over, and undertones our word does not always pick up. But yes, I agree – essentially 1 Cor 13 applies 🙂
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Well, if we turn away from sin to do good out of simple fear of Hell, that is good enough for God. Contrition is that simple. Fear of Hell is enough of a reason to seek God’s forgiveness and He is satisfied with this most common form of contrition. Saints are those who actually do experience perfect contrition which manifests itself in several ways in the life to those so blessed one of which is the ability to avoid all sins, both venial and mortal. Fear of Hell keeps most of the rest of us from committing the mortal stuff. And that IS good enough for God which speaks volumes about His love and mercy and justice. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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How very sad ginny. You sound like a small, scared child, hoping if you are not naughty, you won’t be sent to bed. What sad childhood did that to you?
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Hello Jess. Sad childhood? How about this particular childhood: ”
Mr. Marto, father of Jacinta and Francisco, noticed that when the third apparition began, a small grayish cloud hovered over the holm oak, the sunlight diminished, and a cool breeze blew over the mountain range, despite it being the height of summer. He also heard something like flies inside an empty jug. The seers saw the customary glare, and then Our Lady over the holm oak.
Lucia: What does Your Grace wish of me?
Our Lady: I want you to come here on the thirteenth of next month and to continue to pray the Rosary every day in honor of Our Lady of the Rosary, in order to obtain peace for the world and the end of the war, for she alone can be of any avail.
Lucia: I would like to ask you to tell us who you are and to perform a miracle so everyone will believe that Your Grace appears to us.
Our Lady: Continue to come here every month. In October, I will tell you who I am and what I wish, and I will perform a miracle that everyone shall see so as to believe.
Lucia then made a number of requests for conversions, cures, and other graces. Our Lady recommended the constant recitation of the rosary; thus they would obtain those graces during the year.
Then she went on: “Sacrifice yourselves for sinners and say many times, especially when you make a sacrifice, ‘O Jesus, this is for love of Thee, for the conversion of sinners, and in reparation for the sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary.'”
The first part—The vision of hell
Lucia writes, “Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent. This vision lasted but an instant. How can we ever be grateful enough to our kind heavenly Mother, who had already prepared us by promising, in the first Apparition, to take us to heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of fear and terror.”
The second part—The warning of the chastisement and how to avoid it
The children then looked up at Our Lady, who said to them so kindly and so sadly:
“You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end: but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the Pontificate of Pius XI. When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that He is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father. To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of reparation on the First Saturdays. If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world. In Portugal, the dogma of the faith will always be preserved, etc. …”
https://americaneedsfatima.org/ANF-Articles/the-third-apparition-of-our-lady-of-fatima-july-13-1917.html
Hell is real. It is eternal. If you’re headed in the wrong direction, God allows U-turns. Seek Him in the Confessional while He still may be found there. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Let’s see, children of abusive father and mother imagine hell. Fine, you fall for it if it fits your picture of your god. I’ll stick with God and love, you’re welcome to God and pity.
BTW, did you ever apologise for lying and saying I’d threatened to ban you? Thought not.
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Me too, many times Ginny. Often, when tempted to end it all, the thought of ending up with the enemy of God for eternity is all that held me back.
Fear of Hell being imperfect contrition is considered sufficient for a valid confession but not otherwise. When I confessed to my pastor that I was thinking of doing away with myself he asked me, “What did God do to you that you would do such a terrible thing to Him?” Of course, God had done only good things in my life.
We are creatures of free will but our choices have consequences.
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Jesus turns tragedy into triumph http://catholicexchange.com/jesus-turns-tragedy-triumph
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I understand that Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels. Those humans who reject God and the humanity He created, have voted for the devil’s party and so go to join him for eternity. Our bodies, being material, go the way of all flesh (except for the incorruptibles) but our souls, being eternal, cannot die.
“If you love me, said the Lord, you will keep my commandments” “My yoke is easy and my burden sweet”
Sin is placing ourselves and our wants and needs before everyone and everything else. It is putting ourselves in the place of God. Love yourself first says the world, the flesh and the devil. Ignore the man in the ditch, you have important business elsewhere, etc.
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My understanding too, Annie – thank you 🙂
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In Genesis we are introduced to God. He created the universe and all it contains from nothing. From the dust of the earth he created Adam and breathed life into him. Later he created Eve out of Adam and presented her to him.
All was well in Eden and everyone got along fine together. God would come everyday to visit and see how Adam and Eve were doing. When they sinned, by doing what God had asked them not to do, the had to leave Eden. God made them a set of clothes to cover their nakedness but they had to go there and then.
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All rightie Ms. Jess. Gloves off: Take this single sentence of yours and place it over a really nice Crucifix instead of the INRI and contemplate the result of your views of God’s death upon that Cross which His perfect Justice demanded BEFORE your sins could be forgiven and paid for with His Holy Blood: “Some of us have a less anthropomorphic understanding of God’s justice.”
His atoneing Death is most definutely anthropomorphic in nature. Congratulations, you just said His death was stupid and He should’ve consulted you before sending His Son to die so mankind could be free. You imagine better forms of justice? Sheesh. Nice try, but you can do better.
God bless. Ginnyfree.
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I suppose if you stopped, thought, and read what I wrote with any degree of understanding, you’d stop writing foolish things such as ‘you said his death was stupid’, and that, whilst helpful wouldn’t be your style, which seems, alas, to misunderstand, misrepresent and to scold; you have, perhaps created a God in your own image, as your God seems just the same as you. That makes him a creature, and that’s my point, your God does not have thoughts high above your thoughts and mine, he’s a bit of a tribal god crossed with the head of ISIS, torturing those who displease him. That is the point I am making, but I guess since your god is that tiny, you really believe he does that sort of thing. Remind me, why do you worship such a tiny vengeful figure – is just that he scares you?
I hope one day you meet Jesus and know his love – you surely need it as much as the rest of us, and it must be a sad place where you believe the Infinite God is like a human tyrant 😦
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I had the great good fortune, in my middle twenties, to experience the tremendous force of Love that God is, and also to see my life as I had lived it up to then through God’s eyes when I passed out of my body in hospital and found myself looking down on my body from the ceiling
I could see a doctor working on me and the nurse saying it’s no use she’s gone and the doctor saying I’ll keep working on her for a little while longer.
I didn’t wait around to see what happened next but went off over the city to where my mother was waiting for me without any idea of where I was. She said to my flatmates that we will wait a little longer as they didn’t know where I was either.
The scene vanished and I became aware of how being in the presence of God and was blown away by the immense Love radiating from Him. I didn’t see Him with my eyes yet my soul knew Him and was enraptured by Him.
Next we had to review my life. God’s view of my life showed me as if in a mirror or a newsreel how I had hurt every single person I had come in contact with throughout my life by being completely selfish and using every situation for my own ends. I was completely amoral.
Many things I had forgotten were shown again to me. It was like reliving my life all over again but with 360 degree vision and seeing inside and outside myself and everyone I had ever met.
At the end, we were quiet. I asked if I could go back. Why, what would you do differently? was shot back at me. Love, I said. Who? I was asked. My mother, I said, though why I don’t know.. It would be somewhere to start.
I woke up in my hospital bed. A nurse smiled at me and said “You’re awake.” I rang my dad and told him where I was and he told me my mom was in the city and to ring her there. I did. Everyone came in to visit including my sister a qualified nurse. She looked at my chart and her face changed. “They almost lost you” she said when we were alone.
I know that there is nothing surpassing the Love of God. Would that I were worthy of it.
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I was shocked to see the damage I had done. My selfishness didn’t see beyond my own wants and needs – think Tracey Barlow ++ I was a user. The voice that asked what would I do differently had a edge to it. It might have been my guardian angel, Jesus from the Cross or my accuser waiting to snatch me.. Since God has the last word in everything, I was granted my request. My mother’s prayers were surely a factor.
I hope that everyone who dies gets the same chance to repent of their sins that I got but I feel it was a signal grace granted to my mom. Had I died and not come back that time it would have brought great shame on her and my whole family. God knew all that they had suffered already through me.
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Jess, here’s a nice story that shows you what love really is and showcases how our Religious see that love and live it. The Sister is smiling embracing her Cross to the end and it was a long and hard Calvary walk. If you had the ability to ask her whether or not she thinks she’s being punished by God with all her suffering, she’s probably quote St. Teresa of Calcutta and inform you that “Suffering is but the Kiss of Christ.” http://aleteia.org/2016/06/25/who-smiles-like-this-at-the-moment-of-death/
Please enjoy her story. There’s more about her on the Net as of late. You could learn something from her death embraced as if it is the ultimate dance with one’s Lover. This is love. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Ginny, do please learn to read. It is you who thinks God punishes people, not me, so why would I ask anyone if they were being punished by God – you are a caution. You seem unable to enter the mindset of anyone not you. How sad you seem to me – a small child with a big bad daddy who pities her and will punish her unless she keeps apologising – sad, sad, sad.
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Take care Jess, your responses to Ginny are frightfully nasty.
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I’m sorry Annie, I should try not to respond to her nastiness in kind, but she’s a bully, and such people usually mistake being nice to them for weakness.
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I’m a bully? Oh please. How many times have you yourself threatened me with expulsion for perceived uncharitable comments that were little more than a different opinion? Bully indeed. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Can I intervene here. GInny, I cannot find Jessica has ever threatened to exclude you, and unless you give me a direct quotation, I would ask you to withdraw that. Jessica, the tone, as you admit, is not the one we want here, so it would be good if it changed.
Disagreement is fine, but it seems neither of you is understanding the other, and can I suggest we give this one a rest? C451
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C – first, I apologise without reservation for my tone; it was wrong. Second, best of luck with ginny. I have never threatened to exclude her – as you know, I don’t have that power. Be interesting to see if she can admit error – my guess, best of luck with that one 🙂 xx
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Thank you Jess. We shall see.
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I would repeat C’s request. I have never barred, or threatened to bar, anyone from here – and as it happens I don’t have the power to do so. Anyone else, caught in a direct lie, would withdraw and apologise. You …?
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I also get weary of her constantly misrepresenting what I write and imposing her own version – it isn’t as though she’s actually engaging with what I am writing. But yes, you are right, I should try to be nicer to her.
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It’s an emotive subject. Earlier today I was reflecting on how much more vicious and dangerous the world has become. People are hurting but striking out at another doesn’t ease the pain one bit.
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You are quite correct, as is C451, and I apologise without reservation for my tone, which was wrong.
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Ya know Jess, the insults aside, you fail again. ” It is you who thinks God punishes people, ” No. I said that it is the sinner who brings the consequences of their sins upon themselves. Give it up. Hell really is a lake of fire from which Jesus would like to save you. But you continue to deny His very words that warn you of that fate if you fail this side of the daisies. Stop denying Him. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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To get to the subject, I am puzzled, if you are reading literally, how a Lake of Fire can also be Gehenna, which was a rubbish heap outside Jerusalem; lacking access to the literalist interpretation, perhaps you could enlighten us all?
On the substance, you believe in a God small enough to want to punish his disobedient children for ever. My God is rather bigger than that. One say we shall know which of us was correct.
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