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Something that it would pay us to bear in mind. We’ve all stressed it here many times, but perhaps it is something we should be reminded of, particularly as our political systems seem to be in a sense tearing themselves apart, not least because Christianity in less noted in public life than it usually has been. From Fr. Aidan Kimel, writing in Eclectic Orthodoxy.
The love of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit for human beings is unconditional. This fundamental truth of the gospel bears repeating. It bears repeating because we Christians, clergy and laity, seem to forget it so easily. Yes, we know all the words—”God is love,” “Christ died for the ungodly,” “This is my body which is broken for you,” “Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed”—and we can recite from heart the parables of the prodigal son, the shepherd and the lost sheep, the woman and the lost coin, as well as the stories of Jesus and the paralytic and of the woman caught in adultery—yet for whatever reasons we seem to prefer a different narrative. It goes something like this:
God is angry with us, and he’s been angry with us since the day we were born. But if we repent of our sins, he will change his mind, forgive us, and give us eternal life, as long as we continue to believe in him and avoid mortal sins. But we need to be careful, because if we trip up, God will turn on us at a moment’s notice.
Orthodox, Catholics, and Protestants tell different versions of the story; but the popular narrative remains constant: God is a God of conditional love. If we fulfill the conditions he specifies, he will be to us loving and merciful; if we do not, he will be to us wrathful and punishing. God is Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde. Which one we meet depends on our performance.
And so I repeat the fundamental truth of the gospel: the love of God for human beings is unconditional. God does not love us because of anything we have done. He does not love us because we are virtuous or obedient or kind; nor does he cease to love us when we fail to love as we should or when we disobey his commandments. He does not cease to love us even when we commit evil. God’s love for us is unconditional, unmerited, unqualified, unreserved, absolute, immutable. We cannot earn it, no matter how hard we try; we cannot lose it, no matter how hard we try. God does not change his mind. He is eternally and hopelessly in love with the creatures he made in his image.
Considerably more at Finding the God who is Love
How easy it is for us to forget this, as the events of our world, and yes our churches swirl about our heads.
Oh dear! My favorite little figgy! The greatest fallacy of our age it this: “The love of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit for human beings is unconditional.” – Fr. Aidan Kimel
The devil himself couldn’t do more harm with so few words.
God made man and woman and placed them in a garden called Eden where they could live in peace provided they not eat the fruit of a tree. That is a CONDITION placed upon them by God. God’s love created the very first condition and if you notice, they failed the test. The sin is called original. They knew shame and this is God’s justice which is perfect. It cost them their Eden and caused all mankind to suffer. In His mercy He promised a Redeemer who would buy them back from their sin at some future date. Again, conditioned upon the death of His only begotten Son, who could be at that time, the ONLY One the Father could love. There are other reasons I could give to shoot a few holes in this fallacy of some sort of love God has towards His creatures that permits no justice because that would mean He doesn’t love them at all. The theology of the sin of presumption begins with such statements as Father Kimel’s.
The fires of God’s love are found in Purgatory and the conditions there have to be met before the soul can leave it.
The dis-belief in Purgatory that pervades so much of our age’s discourse on the Last Things is a direct result of the above fallacy. Those who imagine God’s love for them as unconditional see no reason why a loving god would punish his dear child with suffering in such a state as has been so clearly outlined by our very host, Ms. Jessica here at AATWT. But I know different. And I’m very thankful. My Father in Heaven loves me and does so by placing many conditions on my life. I love Him, so I keep these conditions as best I can and when I fail, I seek His Precious Blood in the tribunal of mercy called the Confessional. Contrition, Confession and Satisfaction. All three conditions are expressions of God’s love for me that will if I meet them, bring me to a place where His mercy can meet me and buy me back from the mess I call my life. This is a very conditional love. I really don’t want to fall for another other.
Thanks for bringing it up NEO. It is a fine little lie that smacks of the sickening sweet sentiments of Universalism. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Hi Ginny, it been a while hope you are well ad ding fine Rob
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Nice to “see” you too Rob. I’m well enough and couldn’t ask for more. I hope you are too. I saw the little figgy tree and had to water it. Ya know, some figs will simply do that to you. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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What, ginny, does it mean to say ‘God is love’? Did St John write ‘God is pity’? No. Perhaps though, he didn’t know as much as you do about God?
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Hello Jessica! Nice to “see” you. Glad you popped up. I like the new Avatar. You ask a good question but I’m about to leave for Mass and Communion, so I haven’t got time to answer you in a way you deserve, so it will have to wait for later. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Always the best thing to do on Sunday – God be with you 🙂 xx
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Lovely to see you back, Jess. I wish I could say something to help with the pain, but all I can think of is “mourn with those who mourn.” Peace be with you.
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Absolutely Nicholas 😦 xx
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The statement that God is love that is found in the Gospel of St. John is a descriptive statement about one of God’s divine attributes. These are the essentials necessary for a full and complete understanding of God in His essence. They are the building blocks needed for a person to know God from the ground up, so to speak. They are 10 in number and the understanding we’ve gathered about us over the centuries about them has provided theologians, philosophers, and contemplatives with great satisfaction in growing in wisdom and understanding of Jesus our Lord. They are the gold from which the complete picture of Him Who is can be developed in the mind of one seeking to know Him as He is in His entirety, one who seeks to do so without color of error. If one is lacking in the basic knowledge of these attributes, one fails to recognize potential distortions in ordinary converse of God that others may present. But once you get the picture, when His image is distorted by others, their misunderstanding or flat misrepresentations of Him scream out at you from the pages or from what you hear in person. It is really simple, (which BTW, is another of God’s attributes: absolute simplicity).
Yes, Jessica, God is love, but He is much more than that single attribute. There are others and they are all equal to each other and essential. One cannot be emphasized over the others without a distortion of the total picture. There aren’t any that negate the others either. You cannot play one up in order to make a point. Nor can you eliminate any of the others with one of them or several of them. And they must be understood prior to gaining knowledge of His Divine Will. They determine the actions the will takes and by knowing them, you find out how the will wills things and acts upon the whole in completeness.
God is love and in that basic sentence, the word “love” is used as a verb, an acting, and an action. It is the attribute acting according to the will and to understand its full meaning is beyond ours. It is not meant to mean this “when I feel love, I’m experiencing God.” This plays out in many ways most common is that when a person feels kindly disposed towards someone or something, they think it is love and that it is of God because of the sentence “God is love.” But then they’ve managed to reduce the Infinite God to a mere human feeling. Disaster! You couldn’t do Him a greater disservice than to call Him that! But it happens. That is partly why church hoppers tend to go to the service that makes them feel the best! They’ve lived with the misunderstanding of God that that leaves in the mind: God is a feeling of love and to experience Him, you have to have a feeling. So that is why some folks leave a place for another: it simply wasn’t a moving experience so they go seeking to find their false image of God elsewhere.
Alrighty then. I’ve said enough. Not the answer you were looking for I suppose, but it will be fun to see how you respond. I hope I’ve helped you understand me a little better at least. I tend to look at the whole and not its parts. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Your first sentence is where the ‘fail’ starts. John says ‘God is love’. He does not say what you say. Whenever anyone finds themselves explaining away what one of the evangelists says, you know they are uncomfortable with it; for me the question is why are you so discomforted by the notion of God being love?
I am no church hopper, so can’t say why people hop around looking for a church which suits them. If you think ‘God is love’ means he’s a human feeling, I think you fail to get to first base on theology 101. Can you tell me where you find this straw man you are erecting – that is that God is a feeling? Sounds like you are guying others rather than addressing what it means to say ‘God is love’.
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Hello Jess. So, you think the Divine Attributes are a failure. That is your opinion. Thanks for sharing it. Dr. Ott can explain it better than I, so here is a link to one of his works that does: http://www.essan.org/SignumMagnum/e%20Books/Fundamentals%20Of%20Catholic%20Dogma.pdf
Warning though, it is a basic Catholic course on Dogmatic theology and may not be to your taste, but he and I are in agreement. I use his text often. I sincerely hope you take the time to read those chapters that explain what I mean. You could begin on page 28 and take it from there. I sincerely doubt you’ll accept his teaching, but that is okay. It will at least give you an idea of where I’m coming from.
Can I ask what grief it is that Nicholas is speaking of in your life? It’s been a while since I’ve been here and so have no clue. I will offer prayers for you in a few minutes at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. God bless. Ginnyfree
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I have read it previously, and don’t find he denies God is love. You draw an unnecesary distinction between attributes, which no one denies God has, and essence – and the essence is love.
Things not too good at the moment generally – ghastly idiots believing lies and voting to leave the EU – I may well leave the UK for work in Germany.
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Hello Jess. Just back from Mass. I lifted your poor heart up to the Lord. I hope He showered down some consolations on you. I asked.
Now, back to the debate – “John does not say love is an attribute, if he’d wanted to, he would have. ” St. John was not writing a dissertation on theology. He was writing under the influence of the Holy Spirit as no others could again since his passing from this world on Patmos. He was writing exactly what God wanted him to, no more or no less. Inerrant. Scripture contains no fault. Nor does the study of dogmatic theology detract from Scripture. If your parameters were absolute, no one could even give a homily. They’d simply have to stand up repeat Scripture and leave everyone floundering to interpret it for themselves as they wish. The study of the Scriptures I’m sure you aren’t discounting and just as surely you don’t think folks should never speak or write about how they see things in them?
” ‘love is only one of God’s attributes’? That is adding to the words in John. ” No this is not adding anything to Scripture. Once again the accusation falls flat. It is simply an explanation. I have not said anywhere in anything I’ve written that my words or Dr. Ott’s are Scriptural.
“As I say, you are mistaking attributes for essence.” The essence of who God is is described by the attributes, as I’ve already said. God is also ipsum esse subsistens. Are you familiar with these words? If not, I won’t bother about that. You don’t need to agree with them, but do try harder to refute them. It is fun to have you try. God bless. Ginnyfree.
P.S. I’m relieved that your sadness is over the Brexit. I’d thought perhaps the way Nicholas was consoling you it was a death in the family. Yikes!
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I don’t see what God is existence has to do with God’s essence and attributes, those are two quite different theological arguments- as you’d know if you were familiar with Gregory of Nyssa or Gregory Palamas – but I guess you don’t do the more sophisticated Greek Fathers and prefer Latin scholasticism – just so narrow and uninspiring, hard not to be as Latin is such a dull language in which to conduct theology – the original Greek so much better. If you are going to throw Latin saws at me, at least make ’em relevant.
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P.S. Ott’s work isn’t perfect, but it does provide some basic building blocks.
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As I say, you make a simple error – you assume attributes and essence are the same – if you’d ever read any Maximos the Confessor or Gregory of Nyssa you would be better informed – you really ought to read the Fathers you know.
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Want proof of my “theory?” Read Psalm 5:5-7
5 You are not a god who delights in evil; no wicked person finds refuge with you; 6 the arrogant cannot stand before your eyes. You hate all who do evil; 7 you destroy those who speak falsely. A bloody and fraudulent man the LORD abhors.
There ya go – three verses that speak the truth about what God feels and thinks towards the wicked. It would be wise to take these words very seriously. Or you can continue to swim in the swampy mire of the age we live in that says, no matter what you do, God will forgive and you get Heaven just because God is love.
God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Yep, three verses that speak of God the Judge. And so He is. But I am not, and so I do not indulge in judging others, merely myself. And I know that with all the beams in my eye, I can’t possibly see the mite in another’s.
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You know, Ginny, there is something I never understood. Why exactly would God, if he didn’t love us, even with all our transgressions, have knowingly sent His own Son to us to be tortured and murdered?
Of course, He expects us to be honest with Him. what father doesn’t? Mine did as well.
We are saved by His Grace alone, not by works. We all sin, and we all confess, so what exactly is your point, not do we require an intermediary. We confess to the High Priest.
What you’re missing is that God is a universalist, He wants us all to be saved. That some harden their hearts against His Grace is not his doing.
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I hope you will allow a new comer to interject for a moment. It seems to me this article is very good and it is about God and his unchanging love for his creatures. As it says in Romans 5:8, God showed his abounding love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners – while we were still sinners. This is the love of God that knows no bounds, is unchanging, and yes, unconditional in terms of God’s unchanging nature. Nowhere did I read in this article that God’s unconditional love = all mankind will go to heaven, no questions asked! It is simply describing and helping we poor sinners to understand how great is the love that is God.
It is gospel teaching that God’s love is eternal and unchanging. I am not permitted to call God’s pure love for us “Unchanging love”? I think it is permissible to add the modifier, it lends to a a greater understand of just how great God’s love is. It transcends our sinful nature and is unchanging. It does not depend upon how “good” we are since we all know we change switch from good to bad in the twinkling of an eye. Does God despise us when we are in the act of committing a sin, or does the gospel teach us that he is waiting for us to repent and return to his loving arms?
We are the ones who change and who love conditionally, not God. He is constant and unchanging. That is why it is justified to call it unconditional love, God is not subject to feelings or whims or preferring chocolate icecream today but strawberry icecream tomorrow. (To stretch the analogy, he loves icecream unconditionally regardless of the flavor.) I believe the blog writer is making a valid point about God’s eternal, unchanging, unconditional love for all of creation regardless of our sinful nature. Good golly, that is what the entire gospel is all about!
I found this article, “The Unconditional Love of God.” I think it good. http://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-study/topical-studies/the-unconditional-love-of-god.html
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Hey there new guy! I’m sort of a gadfly around here. You bring up some interesting things. I’ve not been here recently but noticed the topic and thought I’d say a little something about a pet peeve. It is one of the bones my dog loves to gnaw on too. God bless and welcome. Ginnyfree.
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Ginny, I am a gal and not a guy. To say what I meant a little better, the blog writer does not write that SALVATION is unconditional, just that God’s eternal unchanging LOVE is unconditional. We wouldn’t have the recording of Salvation History as recorded in the Bible if God didn’t love us eternally and unconditionally. God counted all the hairs on our heads before we were knit in our mother’s womb, for goodness sakes, I can hardly think of a more awesome love than that and it never waivers. Salvation is a different topic, it seems to me, and it is quite justified in recognizing, naming, glorifying, and praising the unconditional, eternal, unchanging love of our creator.
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Well hello then new gal! I stand amended. I think if you go back and read what the good Father said, you will see how his distortion effects his conclusions about salvation. Most telling is this: “We cannot earn it, no matter how hard we try; we cannot lose it, no matter how hard we try.” Right there you see his mixed up theology expressing itself in a rejection of the basic understanding we have of Salvation, that our individual salvation is NOT guaranteed, which it isn’t or you’d hear of a St. Judas Iscariot, wouldn’t you? Yet he does this even after calling to mind the lessons contained in the prodigal son’s return to the Father. Many prodigals never make it back from their pig sties. He has complete negated God’s perfect justice with His love. Yes, it is possible to lose one’s salvation and presumption is the way to begin. I could I suppose find more of his stuff out there on the Net and show you, but I didn’t bring the man’s thought here for praise, so it wouldn’t be welcomed if I did so. I’m quite sure I can find a few more holes in his swiss cheese theology. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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The love of God is so great that He has given us freedom. He continues always to love us but not always to love what we do with that freedom. Our abuse of His gift makes us unreconciled to Him. The relationship, us to Him, Him to us, is qualitatively different depending upon our enmity or friendship towards Him. The amount of God’s love towards each of us is always the same, always infinite. The specific form in which that love finds expression, predominantly as mercy or predominantly as justice, is dependent upon how we accept and use the grace which He freely pours out upon us.
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NEO, here is your question:”Why exactly would God, if he didn’t love us, even with all our transgressions, have knowingly sent His own Son to us to be tortured and murdered?”
Here is my answer: Pity. For pity’s sake. He pities us like sheep without a Shepherd. Those were His own words. Your question places an unconscious limit on God who is limitless and not bounded by man’s thinking it so. “If He didn’t love us………..” Meaning His love means that we are off scot free. Jesus died for your sins so therefore you get Heaven, right? Not so fast. Is your contrition sufficient? God doesn’t owe you anything at all. You owe Him everything, even your life’s breath and the grass between your toes that feels sweet and the air you breathe. You owe Him. His love is not limited by your expectations of what that love should accomplish for you specifically. You expect love to behave in an expected way. But love is pretty rough sometimes.
Have you ever punished your children? In your parent’s mind, they may have deserved much more than you gave them because you can see fully the damages done by their actions, but they as children aren’t mature enough to see the fullness of their sins and so to them, their punishment rarely fits their “crime.” They generally whine and moan and fawn at mom or dad or both, expecting to have whatever punishment there is meted out, lessened and they expect that because mom and dad love them. This is no different when applied to the “unconditional” love stuff that gets you out of Hell free without having to bother about the Laws of God. See what I mean? The spiritually mature individual knows that he or she doesn’t deserve to have Heaven handed to them. Rather, being humbled they know exactly how they don’t deserve it because they’ve looked inside and found their own uglies and realize they fall short of the Measure with which our Father measures: be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect. Oh dear? The hard sayings of Jesus that need some explanation. Perfect? Why would Jesus tell you to do this if as everyone tells you, it is impossible? Saints. That is what we are expected to be. Saints. Perfect. A reflection of the Son who died for us. Are you there yet? I got news for you, if you expect to be perfected by God’s love for you without any effort on your part, you’ll get a really rude awakening after your last breath. Yes, God may very well love you, but if you’re a sinner like me, you know it don’t get you a free pass through the pearly gates.
I’ve gotten a little far off from my figgy: the unconditional part of the problem. God loves. It needs no qualifier and that is what the term “unconditional” is, a qualifier added by men to lull others into a place of complacency. Look at the two side by side and see the actual distortion of the image of God you get:
God loves me. God loves me unconditionally.
In the first, there is a fact that may be true or it may not be based upon the information I get from God’s Word in the Psalms, in a particular Ps. 5:5-7. Seems if I love violence or am wicked, evil, arrogant, speak falsely, the words used against me that tell me what God really thinks and feels about me at that point are abhor, hate, destroy, etc. Not very loving terms are they? Yet that IS God’s Word. His Son’s death doesn’t change that at all. His death fulfills it all. All things are fulfilled in Christ. Including the just sentence He will bring about on the last day for all.
But if I want to live in Candyland among the daisies and pink elephants on parade, then I’ll throw a word into the message of Christ, “unconditionally” Choose the second and live a fantasy that ends in Hell. the word “unconditionally” has been added to the sentence and it distorts the image one gets about God. Yes, there is God’s wrath. It is true. Lot’s wife: salt. Noah and 7 others the only ones to escape. Hell is real. Don’t let it become your outcome. Seek His face while it may be found. It would be much smarter to simply stick with the Word, “God is love” and leave it at that, unadorned with qualifiers that really do harm. That is the Word of God. If you read the last part of the Book of Revelation, you find out what happens to those who add to the Words of the Book and those who take away their prophetic message. Rev. 22:18-19 “18 I warn everyone who hears the prophetic words in this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19
and if anyone takes away from the words in this prophetic book, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city described in this book.” Um that means adding a word like unconditional to the image that God willed for us to have of Him when He said in His Word, “God is love.” Woe to the poor person who thinks they need to add to that image to make it into something God didn’t actually say about Himself. Nuff said. I’ve tried your patience and you’re a good listener. I’m going to bed now. Pray for me. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Oh dear. You do know that Revelation was not written to be the final book of the NT, don’t you? In which case, how can comments meant to refer to the book itself be taken to be referring to the whole of the NT?
Now a little quiz for you, ginny.
’10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. ‘
I am sure you know where these words appear. This says God loved us though we were sinners. This seems not to be the Gospel according to ginny, but you know what, I’m going with the beloved disciple – hope ya don’t mind, and are keeping well.
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Yes, Jessica, the last book of the Bible is at the end of it for a reason. A well thought out reason. It does refer to the whole and that is part of the reason why those discerning the order in which the New Testament is arranged settle upon it. It also may interest you to know that this curse found in its pages is part of the reason some early scholars didn’t want it in the Book and also the reason why Martin Luther wanted it out! Must’ve been his fear of these verses that he had because of his addition of the word “alone” in another of the books, Romans. Those who compiled the Canon of Scripture are smarter than you or I and I’m sure you’ll agree. You wouldn’t want to detract from their works I’m sure as they were truly inspired by the Holy Spirit to act as they did. Most wise. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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I see, so, it is like saying ‘love is only one of God’s attributes’? That is adding to the words in John. Perhaps you are right, but since you are the one adding words, perhaps you might want to have another think on that one then?
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No, Jessica. Your accusation is inaccurate. I’m not adding anything to Scripture. Nor do I ever imply that these words are Scripture. I’ve never said they were. The divine attributes are basic to dogmatic theology and denying their validity shows a lack of education. You shouldn’t do that. I detracts from your credibility. You can do better, so give it a try. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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As I say, you are mistaking attributes for essence. John does not say love is an attribute, if he’d wanted to, he would have. That you fail to make this basic distinction would distract from your credibility – if you had any 🙂
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