The other day our commenter Ann linked to an article. Here’s her comment:
How Jesus evangelised http://www.wordonfire.org/resources/blog/how-jesus-evangelized/2040/
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I found it to be a very good article, too good to remain buried in a comment stream, so here it is, albeit excerpted.
I do not think that the New Evangelization is just about what we say as Christians, nor about what new technologies we use to proclaim the Good News but also about how and the manner by which we proclaim, “Jesus is Lord!”
When it comes to the work of apologetics or promoting/debating the faith or current issues or even just day-to-day encounters for that matter, I must admit that I have never been one for witty, “in the moment” comebacks. I think that this is due, partly, to the fact that my parents taught me from an early age not to regard a snarky attitude, in and of itself, as a sure sign of intelligence and also because I do not think that an exchange of one-upmanship in comments leads anywhere truly productive. Such an exchange tends to produce more heat in friction than light to illuminate, I believe.
I share this because there can be a tendency to view apologetics and the new evangelization solely in terms of formulating the wittiest comeback line that will effectively put the other in his or her place while affording a sense of superiority to the crafter of said comment. But in the entire gospel story I never find Jesus doing this. Our Lord certainly had truth to speak, he knew how to challenge and his wit is demonstrated time and again throughout the gospels but his words never belittled the other nor did they divide and hurt.
That is something that, in my experience, we all do, we tend to get all competitive, and try for the best one-liners. Well, we all know that isn’t what Jesus did, likely because it didn’t work then, and doesn’t now.
What I’m going to do here is simply give you a list of what Fr. Michael talks about here, you can read what he says about each of them in his article, which is linked in Ann’s comment and below as well.
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Humility
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Willingness to listen and be present to people
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Willingness to not manipulate or control
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Trust in God and others
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An attitude of joy
via HOW JESUS EVANGELIZED, and yes, I really do think you should read the whole thing.™ Why? Because, I’ll just about guarantee that if we put aside our pride, and our learning, as Jesus did, and listen to others, we will be far more effective as evangelists, than if we play the games we have been.
There is a reason why I spent 20 years as one of the unchurched, although not unChristian, and it was the attitude of many of my co-congregationalists. In fact, I still have trouble with it, that’s one of the reasons, I value AATW so highly, here we treat each other as equals, and actually read what we each write, not just go down our road, whether anybody follows or not. Well, mostly, anyway 🙂
All Along the Watchtower 
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I do, very much, and recommend it to all!! 🙂
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I think there are many more people who know what Christ teaches and simply object to the teachings of Christ and His Church than those who are simply without a clue. in fact, ex-Catholics are a huge bloc as are ex-Mainline Christians. For these, and our efforts to win these over through evangelization is probably a waste of time. These are the ones that say that we are too judgmental, unloving and unmerciful. I think you can read all you need know about these people from the Book of Wisdom:
Wisdom 2:6-19Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
6 “Come, therefore, let us enjoy the good things that exist,
and make use of the creation to the full as in youth.
7 Let us take our fill of costly wine and perfumes,
and let no flower of spring pass by us.
8 Let us crown ourselves with rosebuds before they wither.
9 Let none of us fail to share in our revelry,
everywhere let us leave signs of enjoyment,
because this is our portion, and this our lot.
10 Let us oppress the righteous poor man;
let us not spare the widow
nor regard the gray hairs of the aged.
11 But let our might be our law of right,
for what is weak proves itself to be useless.
12 “Let us lie in wait for the righteous man,
because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions;
he reproaches us for sins against the law,
and accuses us of sins against our training.
13 He professes to have knowledge of God,
and calls himself a child[a] of the Lord.
14 He became to us a reproof of our thoughts;
15 the very sight of him is a burden to us,
because his manner of life is unlike that of others,
and his ways are strange.
16 We are considered by him as something base,
and he avoids our ways as unclean;
he calls the last end of the righteous happy,
and boasts that God is his father.
17 Let us see if his words are true,
and let us test what will happen at the end of his life;
18 for if the righteous man is God’s son, he will help him,
and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries.
19 Let us test him with insult and torture,
that we may find out how gentle he is,
and make trial of his forbearance.
And that is what we are facing. Persecution at the hands of the world and the lovers of the flesh and even the demonic.
One part the article didn’t cover is that we also should not be Willing to Let Others Manipulate ot Control Us. And this is far more relevant from where I sit than is the other. I do not see Christians doing such things but I see the Secular oligarchs and elites who cheer on and support those who worship at the feet of the world, the flesh and the devil trying to manipulate and create more people just like themselves through the schools, movies, music, politicial movements, laws and destruction of families.
We know we have been manipulated when we start agreeing with them and start carrying a burden of guilt for simply abiding in Truth. Up is still up even though they will tell us that up is now down.
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While not disagreeing with your main point, I see and have always seen both.
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I can’t speak for the USA, but here, where Catholics have never been numerous, and where now they are mainly Polish or foreign refugees, the vast majority have no idea about Christianity, and less interest in it. I sometimes think one reason some Christians bother engaging with the likes of Dawkins is that at least he seems to care what they think.
I don’t see this ‘persecution’ of Christians, or at least, if we think that what we experience in the West is persecution, they we are woefully ill-prepared for its reality.
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Well you were or should have a large number of Angol-Catholics, do you not?
As for persecution, we are only seeing the birth pangs of what is likely to come. I think there is a growing sense of what will be required; replete with blood, sacrifice and martyrdom.
My opinion of the “non-Christian” opposition to Christiantiy is that they see us as a stumbling block. We allow them to gaslight us by various methods. Some like to project their own venom on Christians whilst they never admit their own. Some like to speak of how they are persecuted [like young transgenders needing to use a bathroom for their opposite sex] whilst it is they who will persecute the wider society. There is a lot of hocus pocus out there and right now Christians seem be the last barrier to their ultimate goal of controlling our lives from cradle to grave; as we will not give them the answers they want. 2+2 is still 4 to us and not 5 and we won’t submit to their new math.
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Eh, she’s not in the wilds of Norfolk anymore, not many Anglo- anything in Scotland, last I looked. Ladies from hell there might be though!
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Well that is true . . . but I was speaking to the former Englishwoman. 🙂
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I know, hard to get my mind around it, too sometimes. 🙂
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The Ordinariate is quite small in numbers, most of those Anglo-Catholics who were going to go went in the 90s after the ordination of women.
Here, no one sees us as an obstacle to anything. We’re small in numbers and politically not very powerful, so I don’t really see why anyone wants to persecute us.
On transgender people using the rest rooms of their new gender, I don’t see the problem. People keep talking as though there are huge numbers here, and there aren’t. To expect a man transitioning and wearing women’s clothes to go into the male rest room seems a little on the odd side.
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I tend to agree, the numbers are to small to worry about. My only problem is that it seems to be very damaging to those who go that route, something like a 20% higher suicide rate, and other problems. It is rather odd, either way, really.
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It is worrying, I agree, but I don’t think we help if we seem to stigmatise them.
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Nor do I, but I can understand why many women are upset, not the transgenders themselves so much (who aren’t the ones pushing the issue, at least here) as those who would abuse it – to abuse others.
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I don’t know that any of the incidents that the press have highlighted have actually been transgender – men loitering in female rest rooms tend to have one thing on their mind – ugh!
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Ugh, indeed. But from what I read, that is what is mostly perceived as the problem, and it does seem a bit reasonable. That’s the problem, I think, the transgendered are simply being used, and badly.
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Of course it seems odd; they belong in a psychiatric ward after all.
I do believe that God created humans male and female and that is all there is to it. If you are a man and think you’re a woman you have a very deep rooted psychological problem. Best to get them the right kind of help . . . not open up bathrooms to whatever sex they think they are on said day of the week it is.
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I don’t know how these things work in the US, but here you can’t just put a dress on and march into a female rest room – or if you can, I’ve never seen a case reported.
How we deal with those who feel like this is a difficult issue – but I’m not seeing any legislature saying we add to the bill for mental health.
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We were just talking in the shop this morning that we used to warehouse the mentally ill in hospitals, and then we drove them to the street, and are now making things, illegal, leading to many of them being warehoused again in a different sort of warehouse – prisons. Not a good progression, and more expensive besides.
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It might be money better spent than how it is being spent at present. 🙂
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Wisdom 2:6-19Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE
I can see why that is not in the Bible. At the risk of repeating myself, the catholic version also took out the second command. It does have an agenda
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and his wit is demonstrated time and again throughout the gospels but his words never belittled the other nor did they divide and hurt.”
Jesus was politically correct.
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I don’t think that is what the piece is saying – it is saying that the Lord kept his harsh comments for those who thought their righteousness exceeded that of those sinners whom they despised.
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Im beginning to hear the voice of the Master in you good sister.
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I always have Bosco, or at least His Mother.
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His Mother?
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Bless you Bosco 🙂 xx
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Good sister….we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities in high places.
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But we know that not even the principalities and dominations of the evil one can keep us from Christ Jesus who is our ever-present strength.
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We do know that. And did you know that there is a War in the spirit world to keep us from getting the Word? I have trouble wrapping my head around that. Our reality is a sham. We are here for but alittle moment. But the spirit world is forever. And its a violent place. Thanks to Lucifer,the guiding light of the CC.Michael, the archangel, told Daniel that he battled the Prince of Persia for 21 days. That was the reason it took him that long to come and see Daniel.
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Yes, the devil is a lion prowling around seeing whom he can devour. He is lonely in hell and wants company – that’s why it is so important we bring all souls we can to Christ – with the help of the Spirit.
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A mighty fortress is our God, a bulwark never failing;
Our helper He, amid the flood of mortal ills prevailing:
For still our ancient foe doth seek to work us woe;
His craft and power are great, and, armed with cruel hate,
On earth is not his equal.
Did we in our own strength confide, our striving would be losing;
Were not the right Man on our side, the Man of God’s own choosing:
Dost ask who that may be? Christ Jesus, it is He;
Lord Sabaoth, His Name, from age to age the same,
And He must win the battle.
Martin Luther 1555
My favorite song.
I have a synthesizer piano. I set it to pipe organ and play this wonderful song every once in awhile. I love it as much as eating pastrami sandwich and fries. Well,…almost
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“people who know what Christ teaches and simply object to the teachings of Christ and His Church”
I accidentally came across a history of the catholic church.. Maybe ill do a post on it. In short, there became a rift in the two legs of the religion….one in Constantinople and one in Rome. Rome was, and still is, a center of corruption. At that time of the beginning of the catholic cult, Rome started to claim that it was the true seat of the religion. Well, I mean, its leader made claims that he was the true leader. His aim was to discredit the church at Constantinople. Then the claims became more wild as the days went on. Next, the claim was made that one had to be a member of the church in Rome in order to be saved. Then, a violent and barbaric crusade was waged by the wonderful church at Rome against the people at Constantinople. This secured the rift between the two.
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“but also about how and the manner by which we proclaim, “Jesus is Lord!”
Ah, a method of evangelizing. Read a book, or , or, maybe take a class. (;-D
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If anyone in here ever meets the Lord, he or she will tell other people that they met the lord. There is no method. The Woman at the well met Jesus. She ran and told the town she met the Lord. She didn’t read a book or take a class.
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Dr. Phyllis Zagano
Catholic Scholar and Lecturer
“There has never been a formal commission to study restoring women to
the diaconate … A formal Vatican commission could take the matter away from a small and select body and present to the church an open opportunity to comment on restoring the tradition of ordained women deacons in the West…
The Church and its bishops can train, ordain, and give faculties to the women already working in diaconal roles in the US and elsewhere. In doing so, it would recognize the deep anger so many women have in being told—implicitly or explicitly—that women cannot image Christ.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/catholic-women-react-to-pope-franciss-latest-initiative-for-women_us_5734cf39e4b08f96c1827ee5?
Hell no. We already let butches be nuns. Kiddie fiddlers are supposed to be men and that’s that.
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Lesbian Nuns Break Their Silence : Former, Current Sisters Discuss Religious Life in Book
May 01, 1985|ANN JAPENGA | Times Staff Writer
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ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. — She was what was known as a “particular friend” in convent vernacular. An older nun, she was both teacher and inspiration to Nancy Manahan, who was at the time in her first year at the Maryknoll Missionary Sisters’ Novitiate near St. Louis.
Because talking was allowed only during restricted periods and preferring the company of one nun over the others was forbidden, Manahan said she often had to confess to two transgressions–breaking silence and having a particular friend.
Manahan and 50 other former and current nuns declare in a new book, “Lesbian Nuns: Breaking Silence” (Naiad Press: $9.95), that not only did they cultivate special relationships in their religious communities, but that those friendships sometimes turned into love affairs
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Yummo
(;-D
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Id like to be the meat in that samich
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Nuns ,,,,, yuummy
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I take back every thing I said about the CC
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OH yeah. uuuubabay. That’s how I like it. Thats rite sugar. Yeah baby yeah
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SF Said “I do believe that God created humans male and female and that is all there is to it.”
Yes but that was only singularly true of the first couple and the word used for their creation is (I think) not applied to all humans. We are both the creation of God and the offspring of a fallen race that God gave the power to procreate as other species.
Medically the statement made is incorrect. Although many transgender individuals may not be in the category I mention there are those born with both male and female ‘plumbing’ – so to speak. In some cultures they decide their gender according to their psychological identity later in life in others (e.g. USA) medical practitioners usually take action during infancy to make adjustments and determine the identity they consider best fits and some report that the wrong choice was made for them.
To say that transgender individuals as a category belong in psychiatric institutions is uniformed, hash and untrue.
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So you are telleng us that the 0.033% of babies that are born with this abnormality, usually fixed surgically in the first world shortly after birth, using genetic and hormonal levels present in the infant, is responsible for the majority of people who call themselves transgendered? These are medical oddities like being born with a tail or with two heads or 3 legs. the rest are simply mentally sick. Of those few born this way and the wrong ‘choice’ made by the parents and surgeion would even make them far more rare than this; even if were 50/50 . . . though it is highly likely that there criteria is far better than an even chance of ‘guessing’ correctly.
Far more of these mentally ill folks exist than medicine can explain . . . they are suffering from a psychosis Rob not a medical condition. I hope you treat your grand children according to their physical anatomy because God knows that this is what they were made to be. If you think this blooming of transexuals among us is merely abnormalites of a physical nature then you are simply not paying much attention. Recent polls found that a significant number of our high school students (without physical abnormalities) were confused as to their gender identity. Gender theory was forced taught them as children in school and they have been aided an abetted by a society that no longer treats boys as boys and girls as girls. If you are a cheerleader for this movement to manipulate society and teach the world that they can’t believe their lying eyes then have at it. That would make you an accessory to this child abuse which our present society has foisted upon us. They are sick and the promoters of such things are sick. Best that they find a reputable psychiatrist if there is such a thing anymore. What you support is the result of your being gaslighted along with the rest of society by an elite group of sick psychopaths and sociopaths that are enjoying their use of power and prestige; they being afflicted with Narcissistic Personality Disorder [NPD] or what Ann Barnhadt is now calling, rightfully in my mind, Diabolic Narcissism [DN]. Learn to recognize the modus operandi of the Naricissits among us and you will find the ‘expert’ and ‘scientific’ excuse for the cross dressers who were raised to be DN’s as well. The more you allow these people to tell you that right is wrong and up is down and black is white the more you are giving over your own understanding and your God given ability to see the manipulators of all manipulators as they go about the world and rearrange the fabric of society to their diabolical ends.
You really surprised me Rob. If there was anyone here that I thought might operate outside of the new paradigm that the megalomaniacal purveyors of such thought have created . . . I thought it might be you. Especially since you work in the 3rd world so much. Didn’t think these same types had invaded the poorer nations with the same ferrocity that they did in the first world countries. I guess I was wrong. It is international and respects no culture or national boundaries.
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It is hard to know how to respond to this, dear friend.
In the first place, the experts in this field do not confirm your diagnosis that transgender people are mentally ill. Now it may be that you are right and they are all wrong, but since Governments are taking their expert advice, they will act on it. In the second place, who is going to take on the cost of looking after all these mentally ill people for the rest of their lives?
It seems to me that some of these problems may well have a relatively simple cause – the amount of estrogen going into the water supply thanks to contraceptive pills. I’d be surprised if that had no effect in this area. But again, as no one os going to ban the pill, and Church teaching on it is disregarded by most Catholics, that’s not going to change.
So it seems, at least to me, we have a situation where we do have individuals who identify as either the other gender or as no gender at all. Since no Government in the west is calling them mentally ill, and since no Government is going to pay the costs of looking after them, the question arises as to how we, as Christians, should respond to such people?
Here, it seems to me that the proper response is the one the Church advises for the pastoral care of homosexual people. That starts with respect and treating them as we would wish to be treated. There are of course many atheists who think we are mentally sick and worship our imaginary friend, and we would not accept their ‘diagnosis’, and we would point out, if we had to, that no psychiatrist agrees with them. How do we regard such language? Just as we would be offended and think (rightly) that people who use it are hostile, so, too, do those identifying as transgender regard language such as that you use; how is that helpful to anyone? It isn’t treating them as we would wish to be spoken to.
This is not to say we have to agree with them, but it is to say that the Christian way is not to speak of others with scorn and language which breathes a sense of contempt for them.
It is terribly easy to invent new disorders, and if Ann Barnhadt has invented yet another one, all that is doing is digging the trenches in your culture war even deeper. On one side, she hurls her insults, on the other, those insulted will hurl theirs – and the result is what?
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First, Ann Barnhardt did not invent anything . . . she only connected the obvious (the diabolical) to an already established mental illness. And since when is seeking to care for ill persons properly, whether physical or mental, being contemptuous. I am contempuous with the elite classes who have gaslighted us in to believing whatever they would have us believe. Their experts are only the same people that populate the beauracracies, mega0business and governments all of ther world. Barnhardts look into this dilemma which fits to a T the movers and shakers of this world ties together all the different influences that we see in this world without the need for your favorite comeback of folks being wrapped up in some type of conspiracy theory. The only thing one needs to understand is that DN’s produce more DN’s. And that is how it spreads; it is like a contagion of sorts. It makes more sense than anything else I can think of though one may argue who (individually) might be one or exhibit traits of becoming one can be disputed and each of us have encountered the type over and over again in our lives.
Yes, hormones could be a great part of this. And defective organs that produce hormones might be fixed, modified or supplemented. It thereby can also have a physical component to the malady. To ignore than and to treat them as though their sypmptoms are a ‘lifestyle’ is quackery. And to go a step further we are giving this illness political protection as though they are being discriminated against rather than viewed as ill with a need for treatment.
But now that most of the world has been thoroughly manipulated and feel guilt for sayiing that up is up then we have slid into a slavish society that takes the next ‘scientific’ discovery that tells us right is wrong and wrong is right and easily follow like little lemmings whatever they would have us do next.
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That seems a little sweeping in a number of ways.
In the first place, the consensus among those who have studied this is that it is real. You can just dismiss that, and them, with a sweeping statement about them being part of some elite conspiracy, but that is hardly an argument which will work with anyone who disagrees with you.
It is analogous to the Dawkins line that those who believe in God are mentally ill. He would no doubt say there is nothing contemptuous in his telling us we are mentally ill – but I doubt we’d accept either his diagnosis or the view he was not showing contempt. What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
Whatever the rights and wrongs of this, there is only one attitude Christians can take to those who feel they are transexual – and I do not think it is telling them they are mentally ill. But if you think that is good Christian witness, you will have to say it as you see it, as I will.
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Here you go with the ‘conspiracy’ talk again; your fallback position for anything that might be overarching in its ill effects on this world. It is far from the Dawkins line; as human being have in their natural heart a need for something beyond themselves and have been believing in God’s since we were advanced enough to think.
As to the DN’s . . . take 3 hours and listen [loving her or hating her] to the principles of what Ann Barnhardt presents in her latest video. You may hate her presentation skills, her language and tone or whatever else you personally dislike about her or her past rants or raves but it is the principle of what she is speaking about that is more important here and it certainly seems to be ‘dark matter’ and ‘dark energy’ that cosmologists needed to tie the universe together except in the area of ‘what has gone wrong’ and why it is mushrooming at such a fast rate. It is a self-fulfilling malady not a conspiracy as you love to vocalize. I personally can point my finger at its rise as a personality type in modern society that has become dominant. And it seems to produce more of the same to those that they dominate.
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Funny how she only says it to you, you might try looking in the mirror for the reason.
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Please NEO, we all know you worship Jess, but isn’t this a bit over the top even for you.
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No, I love Jess, but I worship God, and only God. While I often think many Catholics worship the Church first and God secondarily. I see your arguments the same way as Jess does, and I doubt we’re the only two, for that matter.
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How can either one of you who have not even listened to the 3 hour presentation on Narcissism even have an inkling of what I am speaking about. You and Jess want to create a knee jerk reaction to this without even knowing the concept. That is you following Jess’s lead without any knowledge of the subject at all . . . simply because it is Jess.
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Not really, do you really think I simply follow Jess? If so, your knowledge of me is even more shallow than it is of the subject. And here it ends, this is getting to be too personal, and abrogates too much good work done by us all.
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You started the personal and asked me to look into the mirror. Maybe its time you did the same . . . seems a bit of projection on your part doesn’t it?
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There is no doubt that the chemicals we are pouring into the world’s oceans are having a detrimental effect on marine life and that some plastics have a dubious effect on life. Rather than apply our brains to how we might do things differently, a degree of fatalism is evident. Jacques Cousteau warned us several decades ago and showed us the evidence. He was of the opinion that the damage had passed a tipping point and was irreversible. Some work being done on undersea earthquakes are revealing how renewal may be possible.
Back in the 60’s as well as the ‘peace people’ nation states were busy testing out their hydrogen and nuclear bombs. Those who were aware that human genes were being affected by them brushed away concerns, assuming that all progress was good. The bikini was even named after two Pacific islands which had been rendered uninhabitable by bomb testing. The fact that vegetation was more lush was little consolation to the former inhabitants. It was only after Chernobyl that people truly accepted the dangers of radiation. Before that it was presumed to be essential to evolution.
The Malthusians among us would prefer if there were less of us but never offer their own necks. Forced sterilisations in India and one child families in China are part of the terrors imposed on the many by the few. The pleasure principal is supposed to replace normal paternity and maternity. Encouraging the homosexual lifestyle is just another ruse.
We don’t know a whole lot about homosexuality in the ancient world except that the Greeks and Spartans accepted it. Eunuchs were to be found in biblical times because we have several mentions of them in both the old and new testaments. There were the castrata who became eunuchs for commercial reasons and others who felt compelled to become eunachs regardless of consequences.
We are a mystery to each other and to ourselves. In the 60’s new wave feminism encouraged women to throw off their veils, hitch up their skirts and offer free love. By doing these things they were supposed to be as good (really as bad) as men. The old tempter from the Garden trying a new trick. Having had the experience of the Saviour of the world entering human history through a virgin, he was going to ensure that virgins were a thing of the past.
Homosexuality used be blamed on Victorian fathers, doting mothers and same sex boarding schools. It was considered to be a part of maturation and normal for adolescents to have crushes on favourite teachers etc. It used be the case that the only adults who wore tattoos or had homosexual relations were either sailors or ex-prisoners.
The forbidden fruit …
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Lot here, and a lot of common sense, as well.
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Jumped in without a parachute…. some things I had been mulling over.
Pax
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Common sense should always be respected. And so should jumping in without a parachute. Pax, indeed 🙂
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