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One of the recurrent themes here recently has been about how we evangelise. In response to one comment from my friend Servus Fidelis I wrote:
The central problem we encounter here is twofold and hard to overcome. Most people know precisely nothing about the Church, but they ‘read somewhere’ that it has done ‘nasty stuff’ and is ‘bigoted’. They then hear some loud voice in the public square sounding just that way and their prejudice is confirmed. So before the hearer can offer any opinion, she or he is put off by these things. It is getting over that where the problem lies – at least for us.
To which he responded:
I don’t think it is truly a problem. If they listened they will either become more set against the Christ and the Church or they will perhaps read the Gospels themselves to see if they can find ways to argue against the teachings or they will soften their hearts and the Holy Spirit will lead them into the Church. We can’t do that . . . all we can do is speak the Truth as best we know it and live according to those Truths the best we know how.
It may be here that there is a difference between the USA and the UK, but I can attach no meaning to the comment ‘if they listened they will become more set …’. My main problem is precisely that people do not listen, and they do not do so in the UK in part at least because there is no forum in which that might happen. People here usually know next to nothing about the Christian faith, and when they do encounter those in the public square claiming the name Christian, it is often in contexts which simply reinforce the general prejudice that Christians are judgmental people intolerant of the views of others who would, if they could, go back to the days when they could use force to get their way, and ban books and thinkers of which they disapprove. What I never hear from non-Christians is what I often read here, that the church is in some way too ‘touchy feely’ and too full of ‘care bear love’. I have never ever heard a non-Christian say that. I’d be interested to hear from anyone else involved in evangelisation whether they have heard that.
The question for me remains one of how we get people to listen, not what they do when they listen. Where I am at the moment much work has been done on this, and disappointing though it may be to the theorists, we have found two things: that most of the people who cross our threshold do so because a friend has come here and has liked what they found. At that point, yes, they can begin to listen and decide whether what they hear attracts them or not – but before that, they knew nothing other than whatever they picked up in a media biased against the Christian faith. The second thing is that personal interaction with them is critical. People need, generally, to feel they are welcome. Now that is different for everyone, and our ‘greeters’ are well-trained on how to respond to different types of people: with the shy and hesitant, we, too, are delicate in our approach, simply registering with them we know they are there and letting them know we’re happy if they stay for coffee or tea, and that we’re there is they want someone to talk to; and with those who are neither shy nor hesitant, we put one of our more extrovert people into action.
Certainly in the UK, we have a job of work to do in even getting people informed about the existence of the Christian Faith. Neither of the great public holidays, Christmas or Easter, any longer perform this purpose. The latter is now presented as an occasion for the consumption of large amounts of chocolate to the accompaniment of rabbits and the celebration of spring; the former an orgy of commercialism with a nice mid-winter holiday. None of this is the direct result of government policy, it is the result of failures by the churches and the education system. The question for me, not least in my new job, is how we can go about doing something to help reverse that – and the local example here seems to me to be doing the job – at least here. It has, I think, lessons for the wider problem.
Go preach the Gospel – well, that’s what we have to do, and no one ever said it would be easy.
All Along the Watchtower 
Precisely what I was so clumsily trying to say last night. If we can get them to listen, let alone into the church building, we are well over halfway there, I think. Even in the US, while not as bad, this is the state of things, and all those people who have become unchurched over the last few years, are on the other side of this, as well as those, who for whatever reason have become antagonistic to the faith.
In addition, we have to motivate people to do something, and St. Mattress is very appealing to us all and an easy way out.
Preach the Gospel? Absolutely, and let people wonder at how we love one another, not at how we fight each other.
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Thank you dearest friend. I get the impression that in the US there is Christian TV and radio, so someone might come across them – but here, there are few of these things and generally only on certain platforms. If we who are in the churches, can’t get out there somehow, no one is coming in here.
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There is, but sadly it mostly preaches to the choir. I’ve watched it a bit, and it has all the problems that we have in our churches, and thus I think it may be at best neutral. It does some good stuff, but if you’re channel 497 out of 800 or so, well, it doesn’t build audience quickly. Frankly, well produced online videos might be more effective in this area, but if it’s overt, many will simply pass over. One on one is still the best way, I think.
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The United States is a large country, so I would presume that there are pockets that very Christian oriented. I remember growing up in a small community and attending Catholic school. I can remember the first time when I was probably a 6th grader feeling confused when someone was speaking diatribes against Jesus. I thought in my head, “It’s Jesus, how can you say such things about Jesus.” Of course, the more I grew up, going to high school, and later moving away to college I fully began to understand the state of the world, which is the state that has been described.
I think what Servus is getting at is that we just have to preach the Gospel. We’ve been called to do it. It may be the first time and the only time someone hears the message of Christ in the proper. My wife and I are teachers, and one of thing she has to constantly remind me is that when you teach a lesson, especially moral lessons, it may not matter to someone at that moment. However, there may come a time a year or fives years from that point, when they don’t even remember your name, and they’ll be in a situation and think, “Well, I remember someone told me…. …”
A seed when it is planted on the earth does not show a plant. After time and careful nurture it may soon grow. Furthermore, I planted peach trees about four years ago, and with patients, they are finally growing peaches.
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She, and you, are correct, of course. Much of the problem here is that the moral foundation is lacking, that comes with a three-legged stool, parents, perhaps most importantly, church, and school. Parents aren’t doing a good job because they weren’t trained either, schools mostly aren’t for reasons, I suspect all know, plenty has been written, and churches don’t work, unless for some reason you have contact with them.
Answers are few, and needed badly, and perhaps the churches are best positioned to lead this, they know quite a lot about all three, and need to be working on it. Preaching the Gospel is important, but having more than the choir hear it is critical.
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Good advice. But my puzzlement remains. How do we preach the Gospel to a people which does not even know what it means unless we can meet them where they are. They are most definitely not coming to where we are unaided, and we might stop and wonder what we are doing which prevents them.
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I think it has to be personal. Let’s look at the Gospel’s and their intended audience. Mark’s audience were persecuted under Nero–those who feel the State is a challenger to Christ. Matthew instructs in the Sermon on the Mount–the living law– in order to attain the Kingdom of God. Luke is a Gospel taught to others of different backgrounds–the Gentiles. So when Sin is noted, one can certainly judge what is good and evil, but openly teach that Christ welcomes the contrite sinner. Finally, we have John, a Gospel to a people who expected to see Christ again, here we can find Christ in the world.
We can certainly meet them where they are, a family friend’s teenage boy spreads the Gospel by making video game videos on the Internet and sharing the Gospel with those who watch them.
Of course, our actions and instructions. When the young man told me that the only thing that mattered in the world was money and it didn’t matter how you got it. I told him, “Well, I suppose it wasn’t logical by your standards for me to write a check so the poor can eat, while I may for my lunch in loose change.” A subtle seed that is planted they may grow into a thought, ” where does his standard come from? What motivates him to act in such a way?”
Also, when others ask me, “How can you have such patience?”
“My faith.”
I am not standing at the corner, yelling and screaming about the Gospel, but I am still teaching its lessons. I believe it to be effective. Although, I am playing the long game.
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What matters is that we try, as you are, as best we can, to do what we can where we can. So often I hear people say they can’t evangelise – well I certainly couldn’t if what that meant was standing on a soapbox – but if it means offering a young student a cup of coffee and listening to her, well I can do that, and bingo, someone tells me that’s evangelising too 🙂
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Did you ever read “The Cross and The Switchblade” Jessica?
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Did you ever read “The Cross and The Switchblade” Jessica?
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Yes, I did.
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My only thought when reading this post is how very sad this is; especially for a country who ostensibly considers itself Christian with a state run Church. We don’t have that here but our road has been somewhat the same in divesting ourselves from our Christian roots. I was reminded by Barnhardts latest 3 hour video on Diabolical Narcissism about the 45 Declared Goals of Communism that was read into the Congressional record back in 1963; most of which have been accomplished should you read the list: http://www.rense.com/general32/americ.htm
The following 6 seems about where we are today as nations:
17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers’ associations. Put the party line in textbooks.
18. Gain control of all student newspapers.
19. Use student riots to foment public protests against programs or organizations which are under Communist attack.
20. Infiltrate the press. Get control of book-review assignments, editorial writing, policy-making positions.
21. Gain control of key positions in radio, TV, and motion pictures.
27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with “social” religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity, which does not need a “religious crutch.”
28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of “separation of church and state.”
However, at least here in the U.S. we do have preaching on Sundays on both radio and TV. I don’t how successful they are either though I have read of many folks who were teetering on the edge of despair and suicide who was saved by such mediums. But most importantly, what you relate as something ‘unique’ in friends, sending friends seems quite odd from the American perspective. One would have a hard time getting through life (unless you just arrived from some other country) without knowing something about the teaching of Christianity. Almost to the person those who have come into our Church were spoken to by friends who were Christian. Perhaps it is because we have the largest residual Christian base per capita than any other nation despite the war on Christianity. So it seems normal.
Our problem is sometimes something rather different: the professional poor. Those who masquerade and posture themselves as seekers to get money from the Church. They will go from church to church taking the resources that belong to the truly poor and needy. We had to pool our resources and give such help to a professional group of social workers so that they could recognize and sift out the grifters from the rest. But those who want to learn about our Church usually got interested by another parishioner and show up for RCIA or Inquiry Classes.
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Those last six (minus no. 20) happened long ago here – and yet the Labour party and socialism are failing – so something went wrong somewhere with the master plan – and we don’t even have a communist party!
Here, it is not only possible, but common, for people to go through their lives never encountering Christianity, so it is important in a university city, to do what we can to put ourselves where young people will know we exist and that we are here for them – even if, as some do at first, they just want a quiet place to get a free cup of coffee and a friendly ear. 🙂 xx
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Indeed so. We usually have Catholic Unions set up on most College Campuses that will allow them. It is much the same. 🙂 xx
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These organisations do such good work 🙂 xx
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In the sixties when I was young there was a telephone number you could ring for free and hear a pre-recorded reading from the Bible. Being frequently lonely and homesick, I sometimes rang it several times a day. I think it was called International Bible Ministry.
They also offered free copies of the New Revised Version of the Bible from a Box Number to anyone who requested one. Since they said the had a version approved by the Catholic Church, I duly sent away for one.
It arrived in the post within a matter of days. I was pleased to see that the translation of St John’s gospel checked out as the one I knew by heart since it was read at the end of every Mass.
I set myself to read a little of it every night and my heart and mind were opened enormously. St Paul intrigued me -he was being criticised at the time because of his recommendation that women cover their heads in xhurch etc etc. I read his epistles several times and my esteem for him grew enormously. His testimony and the Acts of the Apostles led me to hunger for a living Christian community. Shortly afterwards I was invited to join the Legion of Mary and found what I had been looking for, in spades.
Thank you Jesus and Mary.
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My wife often talks about St. Paul when times seem dire. She often will say, “If Saul’s sin can be forgiven and his heart thawed from sin so that he could be a witness of Christ as Paul, there is hope for everyone.”
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Indeed, and laid down his life for him. I love St Paul and concur with your beloved.
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Ah yes, the Legion of Mary. Excellent choice.
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To recognize from the very outset the role and influence of Mary in the dual work of personal sanctification and the apostolate, and then to submit oneself fully to this maternal influence through intimate union with the Mediatrix of all Graces to become an instrument of conquest in her virginal hands is the secret of the Legionary apostolate—such is the method proper to the Legion of Mary
https://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/Handbook/Legion.htm
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At what point was this the point of the post Bosco?
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Now then Bosco, don’t be naughty. That link was to a very good piece about Jesus – which bit of it did you disagree with? Or are you being naughty again? Tsk, tsk …!
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the Handbook continues: “That devotion requires the formal entry into a compact with Mary, whereby one gives to her one’s whole self, with all his thoughts, and deeds and possessions, both spiritual and temporal, past, present, and future, without the reservation of the smallest part or slightest little thing. In a word, the giver places himself in a condition equivalent to that of a slave possessing nothing of his own, and wholly dependent on, and utterly at the disposal of Mary.”
ibid
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Me, naughty? Perish the thought.
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I am sure your further comments will be on topic 🙂
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The National University of Ireland, in Galway (NUI Galway), suspended the Legion of Mary as a college society last week after the distribution of posters with the headline, “I’m a child of God. Don’t call me gay.”
The A4 posters offered those of “same sex attractions” to “develop an interior life of chastity … to move beyond the confines of the homosexual label to a more complete identity in Christ”.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/05/legion-mary-irish-university-homophobic-censorship
Chastity.
I used to have a girlfriend who used to say….Everybody is doin somebody.
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The Legion of Mary is a caring group of parishioners from St. John Bosco Church
http://stjbosco.org/legion-of-mary
My favorite church
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I was continuing on what Orahaam said. Sorry.
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what a wonderful testimony to the power of the Holy Spirit – all He needs is for us to lend our helping hand – I am touched that such a little thing can have had such great results 🙂
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How Jesus evangelised http://www.wordonfire.org/resources/blog/how-jesus-evangelized/2040/
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Some good points here but he lost me as a Fr. Michael Cummins fans when he gave this aside: “(Sometimes I wonder how critical Jesus’ own relationships were in helping him to grow into an awareness of his own identity and mission.).”
That is the old Jesus Seminar day’s bit about Jesus didn’t know Who He was or what His mission was. Frighteningly shallow vision of Christ the Son of God made incarnate as man.
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Somehow I doubt that Jesus was born with a full, mature understanding of either his identity, or his mission. Is it possible? Sure, all things are possible with God, but it seems a reach, and somehow, I doubt it would have led to humility, or empathy, which he always showed so clearly. I think he grew into his mission, even as we do.
Lot’s of nonsense gets said in seminars, and late nights in the dorm, but some truths do, as well. The problem is sorting the wheat from the chaff.
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Jesus has two natures, the human and the divine. He showed his awareness of his divine nature when he stayed in the temple speaking to the doctors when he was around 12. He showed his human nature when he cried out on the cross “My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?”
Being like us in all things but sin, he took time to grow, to develop relationships with other people, to be obedient to Joseph and Mary, to have a heart for others and in all things show us how to live x
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I agree with the following:
Part 3 of this: https://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/incaa3.htm
. . . and this: http://taylormarshall.com/2013/04/did-baby-jesus-know-all-things-answer.html
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Thank you so much for this SF. It is what I was trying to say earlier.
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I thought so, and it was why I didn’t comment on it. 🙂
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Ann, sorry I couldn’t find the ‘Love’ button for this comment. What a wonderful article you linked to. It’s very much one that we all should read, contemplate, and do our best to follow. Thank you. 🙂
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That’s a wonderful piece – thanks for sharing it 🙂
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Jessica, using Ann’s great example from above, your greeters could hand each newby a Bible.
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And most of them would use it as a paperweight, if they didn’t throw it in the dustbin. Newbies always need the personal touch, not a reading assignment. Christianity is a big scary edifice to many people, and most of what they’ve heard is, at best, not good.
Invite them to a Bible study with you instead, perhaps.
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I think your answer is a bit presumptive, NEO. I read John of the Cross when I was in my 20’s and it had no “Christian” impact on my life. However, the Holy Spirit moved me 20 years later to pick it up again and it transformed my life. We seem to expect instant gratification for our efforts in this day and age. Coddling may work for some and yet a great number of people only need to be shown resources for what we believe. The Holy Spirit moves where He will. Nothing wrong in asking someone to a Bible Study or to an RCIA or Inquirty class and some will come. I only know that in my case, had I been instructed the way RCIA is taught today with all the ‘faith sharing’ stuff; I would have been mightily turned off. I read myself into the Church long before I joined the Church. I don’t think I am small number of the whole that come to Christ. Besides, if they do go to Bible Study; won’t they need a Bible?
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I didn’t say anything about coddling them. I merely said if you hand them a book, they’ll ignore it. If you show an interest in them, and perhaps friendship, as Jesus did, you’ll be far more effective. That not coddling, that’s being effective. Reading oneself into the faith, produces far more Boscos than SFs, when we’re learning we need responsive teachers, to keep us straight. Sure they will, so give it to them when they join the class, as a welcoming gift. 🙂
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There are extroverts and introverts. Introverts are unlikely to sign on to anything until they have some confirmation that this is who they are and want to be. It is (at least in my ministry to others) for me to evaluate who I am dealing with, their knowledge base or lack of, and their interests. From that point I can decide the resource I might offer; a Bible, a book on a particular subject that interests the individual or a group of people who meet in various ministries. I can’t tell you how many copies I got the parishes to buy that I gave out to folks; the most universal book for the job I found to be Why Do Catholics Do That? which was simple to read and yet gave a quick overview with simple answers to question that person may not have had the inclination to even ask. I say the last, because, being polite, most people will not challenge your faith on first meeting you. What I have found is that after reading the book, they will (usually) come back and ask more penetrating questions without feeling like they are stepping on toes or violating social norms in regards to faith or morality. It is part of the opening gambit. They either respond or they set it aside. But many come back.
No reading did not produce a Bosco. It was lack of interest to find the answers to his questions. He likes one-liners from the Jack Chick collection. Besides, I have come to think that he is a complete fraud and has pulled the wool over everyone’s eyes here.
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On Bosco, perhaps but I know many that have read themselves to that position, usually without guidance.
Yes, everybody is an individual, that’s what Jess was talking about with careful selection and training of greeters, our successful churches do it as well, there is, or should be, a lot more to it than saying, “Good morning, welcome to St. xxxx.”
We are at a point where we have to sell the faith. Waiting for random people to wander in out of the rain, isn’t going to cut it, we have to go out and find them, and finalize the sale, meeting the terms and conditions of our churches, and finding them a home. As Geoffrey has said, over the years I’ve sent some people to the Catholic church, because it fit them better than the Lutheran, and Catholics have done likewise. Supposedly, we’re all Christians, at least ISIS thinks so.
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You cannot “sell the faith” . . . you must and can only “sow the faith”. If they are driven by the Holy Spirit they will return for water and nutrients for the Spiritual Life. If not, we can certainly inquire of them (if we have their address or phone number et al) and ask if they are well or if they are put off by the faith or what have you.
Some pastors, like Steve’s, goes out once a week and knocks on doors like the JW’s and LDS’s. Whatever works.
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“When the student is ready, the teacher will appear”
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We do offer everyone a pocket Bible – not all of them take it, but we do our bit 🙂
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So, the BBC is liberal – let us look at the Press – are you saying the Times, Telegraph, Mail, Express and Sun, and their Sunday equivalents are liberal?
Also, SF was talking about socialism. I can believe that to your broad brush, there’s no difference, but to those with more nuanced antennae, the difference between socialism and liberalism is pronounced.
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Of course. I see you are another conspiracy theorist.
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There are many ways to get the gospel out. Thru a class, or in a church service or talking to friends or street ministry. As long as Christ is lifted up, men will come. If you lift up a religion, you wind up with more religious people, expecting the religion to save them.
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Indeed Bosco. Here is a piece which might resonate … http://www.wordonfire.org/resources/blog/a-christian-man-who-raps-not-a-christian-rapper/5161/
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Jessica can speak for herself, but I am not aware of being ashamed of any part of the Gospel.
There is not the slightest hint in the Gospel that being steeped in sin is a barrier to receiving Christ – although there are statements to the effect that it is those who perceive themselves as being righteous who are furthest from Him – prostitutes and tax collectors are going to Heaven before some Pharisees. So I am unimpressed and unconvinced by the notion that somehow this generation is more sinful than the one which received the Gospel originally.
I do think it worth asking why the Churches have lost their hold on the hearts and minds of people, and find it exceedingly strange that anyone should think the explanation is because it has tried to be more loving and less judgmental. I am pretty well-read in secularisation theory and the literature around the decline in belief, and not a single scholar or witness in all that evidence has offered such a view. They have, however, offered the view that people came to see the Churches as more interested in power and wealth and position than in preaching the Gospel, and as being quicker to judge than to show love. There is much evidence in that direction, but if you insist you are right, then you must be – in your own eyes.
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The Church consists of all the baptised. Many have fallen out of the habit of going to church and need to be invited back. If the mountain won’t come to Mohammed, Mohammed must go to the mountain.
Just go out, two by two as the 72 were sent out and speak to whoever you meet and ask them to come and check out your group.
You need to pray beforehand and ask the Holy Spirit to give you the words. People who interact with you will tell you straight what they think. Don’t force yourself on anyone. Have some little cards printed out with your groups name, address, phone number, day and time of meeting and as a reminder for those who are considering accepting your invitation.
The Legion of Mary facilitate groups like the Patricians which are open to people with or without faith for discussion purposes with a cup of tea and light refreshments part of the evening.
There is more to the faith than just showing up on Sundays.
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Perhaps the Patricians is closest to the forum you are thinking of Jessica. Perhaps you will find a group in Edinburgh and be able to check them out 🙂
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Perhaps the Patricians is closest to the forum you are thinking of Jessica.
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Why, C, since Vatican II, ecumenism and the endless talk of love and mercy, the hesitancy to speak of sin or hell has the Christian faith gained a reputation ‘. . . as being quicker to judge than to show love. There is much evidence in that direction . . . “? Is it because we did not give in to women priestesses, contraception and same sex marriages in the secular realm? Will we also begin looking into the issue of women We never will (unless their is schism in the Church).
It seems unlikely, with our opening the Church to the world and negotiating on almost everything concievable issue that we would be seen as such: reception under both kinds, female lectors, gender-neutral lectionaries, female extraordinary ministers, reception in the hands, pop music, groovy pop art, liturgical dances and general love-ins that are common . . . seems completely out of synch with this perception that is generated. If it is true, as you claim, I can only blame it on a media that is bent on destroying the teachings of the faith and is obviously a cheerleader for those who are activists for their own pet peeve or pet sin. It has more in common as an action of political activism that of an intellectual refutation of the faith and how it is practiced and believed. For I don’t think they care a wit about it and neither do they know anything about it nor truly care. They only see it as an obstacle to their political ends.
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Sorry. End of Para 1 should read: looking into the issue of women deaconesses. Left out the operative word: deaconesses.
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Since the C of E has done all those things and gets the same criticism, it seems more likely that there is some more general failure of witness. The media does not care enough, and isn’t smart enough to conspire against the Faith. We may end up having to look at ourselves and wonder what it is we have done that people got that impression.
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I fear there is nothing to be done if people feel that we are in some way the victim of a conspiracy. As every therapist will tell you, until you acknowledge your own part in the problem, you won’t solve it,
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Of course it has happened in the CofE, C. In fact they almost began the feeding frenzy of the secular state by their acceptance of both divorce and contraception. Like all predators when a little blood is drawn from the prey the scavengers begin to arrive. You seem to think that the only way the media can ‘conspire’ is by some secret pact. It is a taught and learned viewpoint that is prevalent in society and in the ranks of those who work in most every field; especially in media that covers the news wherever it is occuring. It is not a secret that the media is skewed in their viewpoints and editorials toward socialist causes, that they are pro feminist, pro homosexual and pro socialist in their bias.
So please do take a look at ‘ourselves’ and give me some facts as to where we are now giving these negative impressions that did not scandalize the world prior to the mid 20th century. Seems to me we are quite more accomodating than ever before in our entire history. Show me what has changed that has stirred up so much ire against us?
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I simply don’t see this socialist bias, but then having lived in a country often ruled by socialists, I have the advantage of knowing it when I see it. Our media are, BBC apart, owned by big business, and the left are always accusing the BBC os being a Tory plant. There is nothing socialist about wither gay rights or feminism – indeed many Tories favour both.
What we are talking about is not something political at all, it is the triumph of a purely secularist mindset, which follows from society’s acceptance of the myth that science has the answer to all our problems.
There is no particular ‘ire’ against the churches here – just a bored indifference. Where there is friction is in the areas that ‘science’ has assured society that our behaviour is discriminatory. There is little if anything to be done about that.
I don’t know where this socialist media is, perhaps it dominates the US, but here and in Western Europe, socialism has been rolled back is is more or less dead.
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So there has not been in the UK an agenda to get God out of the schools and out of the public square?
In the US the only positive Church news occurs when the Church backs redistribution, global warming, homosexual unions, divorces et al. The negative news is overtime the Church defends its moral issues or its ancient practices such as no ordination of women. If it doesn’t appear to be an assault to you then maybe it is because you are far too young to have a proper perspective on the changes. We are regular targeted as puveyors of hate speech for our constant teachings on morality etc. and when I was growing up there was no such thing . . . in fact our moral fabric was rather consistent throughout society and RC morality was just a bit more strict than the Protestant ethic . . . but still quite understandable and respected. It is no longer respected and if you think we have gotten worse at being loving we are only trying to defend that which we always held without being attacked. So do give me some concrete examples of how we have morphed into a monster that has changed the non-religious notions (and even some of our own folks notions) that the Church is too rigid and persecutes people etc. etc. There is no evidence for it . . . in fact, it has been quite the opposite. We have negotiated with the world and given into the world on many issues and it is getting worse by the year. So when evaluate yourself or all Christians as to what we are doing wrong more facts need to be given rather than some over-arching claim that we are at fault. God forbid that it is the world that is at fault.
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You are correct SF and our sad state was forecast by Our Lady at Fatima when she said that without much prayer and sacrifice Russia’s errors would spread throughout the world.
Atheistic communism was spread by the sword and by coercion in Russia and her satellite states. They tried to portray themselves as being more Christian than the Christians but it was just a ruse. When the children were asked to pray for Russia, they had no idea that it was a country, they thought it was a very wicked woman.
Here in Ireland, the faith is under attack from all sides but especially in the media and in certain elements of our government.
The children of this world were wiser in their generation than the children of light in Our Lord’s time and it is true in ours as well.
Perhaps it is “trade jealousy” that spurs them on or sheer hatred. In Fatima Our Lady appealed for prayers and sacrifices for the poor sinners who were falling like leaves into Hell. Ordinary sacrifices which come our way are sufficient. Therese can show us how x
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Indeed so, Ann. This megalomania world has convinced many that we are the culprits and use scripture to point their fingers at us. They have believing that we can make peace with the world and the flesh; and as for the devil . . . he simply doesn’t exist anymore.
Another aspect about Fatima is brought out in this piece yesterday at 1 Peter 5:
http://www.onepeterfive.com/alice-von-hildebrand-sheds-new-light-fatima/
Food for thought!
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No, none. It isn’t possible with an Established Church and a legal requirement for schools to hold a daily act of worship.
It isn’t that the Church has morphed into anything, it is that to the world around it, its stance on some of the things you mention makes it look bad.
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Yes and Holy Water makes the demons that inhabit a possessed person scream in pain as well. It is the world that has gone, not just quite mad, but hellishly demonic.
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You introduce an irrelevance. If God hardened the heart of Pharaoh, fine, but unless you are suggesting he is hardening the hearts of other sinners, I fail to see the relevance of the comparison.
The fact remains that Christ told us that prostitutes and tax collectors would get to heaven before some who obeyed the law and considered themselves righteous. We can heed that or we can ignore it because it fails to meet what we think God should be doing. God will carry on regardless of our views.
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Hardness of heart is often indicated by an aversion to the word ‘love’.
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Invariably.
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I have no idea what you mean by ‘the social kingship of Christ’.
Yes, I favour pluralism, as does the Pope and our bishops. If you wish to be a C19th Catholic, you need a Tardis.
At what point have I said Catholic institutions do not have the right to determine who speaks there?
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How helpful of you.
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Can you provide an actual quotation saying that? Or are you a wicked man spreading calumny and rumour and innuendo?
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As usual, you leap to a conclusion your own prejudice put there. As usual, when challenged, you have no evidence except your own hermeneutic of suspicion. What a sad man. If this is the joy your churchianity gives you, try Christianity – which frees one from the chains of the law.
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Your problem. You joined that Church, so as you make your bed, you lie in it.
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What a way to describe the leader of your church. You are a flea in his backside – but one he doesn’t even know is there. Still, you chose it, your problem – man up and stop whining.
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Jesus spoke of little else. You are really a Churchian – you make an idol of your own image of what your church should be and pay daily worship to it. One day you will meet Jesus and have a personal relationship with him – the mark of the Christian as opposed to the churchian.
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Yes, he spoke of little else except his glory and his kingship.
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People can generally find what they are looking for in the texts; sometimes they even find what they are not looking for if their hearts and minds are open to the promptings of the Spirit.
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God can turn hearts of stone into hearts of flesh as easily as allow water to flow from a rock in a desert.
Grace may build on nature but we are but dust without God. None of us can boast – everything good we have comes from the Lord. St Paul was a Pharisee and considered he was doing a holy work by colluding in the murder of St Stephen.
Every sinner has a future, every saint has a past.
When Christ revealed to Paul that by attacking His followers he was attacking Christ Himself, Paul went on to tell us down the ages through his writings that we are all part of the Body of Christ. “Does the head say to the foot ‘I have no need of you?”
Christ called on us to love God with all our hearts and our neighbours as ourselves. He advised husbands to love their wives as their own bodies. Who is my neighbour? the Lord was asked, and He told the story of the Samaritan and the man who fell among thieves. Our old catechism expanded on this to answer ” our neighbour is all mankind, even those who would injure us, speak all kinds of evil against us etc. Christ called on His followers to love their enemies and to do good to those who hate them. It is easy to love those who love us.
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“In this world you will have trouble but do not fear little flock, for I have overcome the world”
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