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Acts of the Apostles, Catholic Church, Catholicism, Christianity, controversy, Council of Jerusalem, orthodoxy
There has been a deal of discussion this week here about a subject which occupies far too much space on the Internet – traditionalism. Those who want to believe in a hermeneutic of rupture will, in my long experience, do so whatever arguments are adduced for the hermeneutic of continuity. I recommended to Jessica this site which has some exellent pieces, not least on the issue of the older versus the newer Mass. It has a great deal of excellent material on it, and for anyone either flirting with Sedevacantism, or coming to the Catholic Church for the first time, I recommend it. I don’t, myself, find ‘discussions’ over the form of Liturgy useful, not least since, as an amateur liturgiologist, I am very aware of how liturgy has developed across the last nearly two thousand years. I have very little doubt that when the Church in Rome stopped using Greek, someone grumbled and thought it was a sign the Church was going to the dogs (Greek, is, after all, a much better language in which to discuss the Infinite mysteries of God than Latin, and it is no accident that only the genius of Augustine and St Leo put them in the same bracket as the many Greek Fathers).
One of the things I like about the post Easter Mass readings is we get selection from one of the most neglected books (from the point of view of Mass readings), the Acts of the Apostles. Today’s reading provides us with a glimpse of the first great clash between traditionalists and innovators.
It is very easy to forget (which is why it is done so often) that the very first Christians were mostly observant Jews, they went to the Synagogue, they observer the Law, and they did not see themselves as somehow separate from their fellow Jews. They knew the Messiah, and they wanted to share that Good News with their fellow Jews – but that this early stage they would probably have been horrified if someone had told them that their activities would lead their descendants out of Judaism. So, imagine if you will for a moment, the horror such men would have felt at hearing that Gentiles were coming into the Jesus movement who were not circumcised and who did not keep kosher. We know, for example, that wherever he went, Paul preached first to the Jews, and then, if they would not receive him to the Gentiles, and we can presume that many of the latter came from the ranks of the God-fearers – that is Gentiles who attended Synagogue but were not Jews. As more of these became believers, tensions grew within the movement. The question of what made a good Christian was posed – and for many of the original converts, the answer was that you could not be one of you were not a Jew first – so converts should go through the whole process of converting to Judaism. That Paul was letting men in without that provision, and that Peter was eating non-kosher food with them was, to the traditionalists, a scandal. Nowhere in Scripture (and here we are talking about what we call the Old Testament) or tradition (Jewish tradition of course) was there warrant for such things. The protests of such men prompted Peter to go back on his new practice – and Paul to angry responses.
The question posed here is one with which the Church has wrestled through its long journey through the ages. What does it take to be a good Christian? Is it enough to obey the ten commandments and to love God and your neighbour as yourself, and to confess Christ is Lord? Or, is it necessary, on top of these things, to abide by sets of rules and practices which we have inherited from our forefathers in faith? Do we prove our fidelity to Christ by the fervour with which we adopt practices about praying, fasting, dressing and the like?
Here it is clear where the traditionalists were coming from – in two ways: they were from Jerusalem, and they were what Paul called Judaisers. James, the ‘brother’ of the Lord (who has been variously seen as either a son of Joseph from a first marriage or the son – my own views are set out here) was head of the very conservative ‘home’ Church in Jerusalem, and clearly had to take into account the views of its members, although, from the account in Acts, he may, himself, not have been of their opinion; but like all church leaders, he found he had most trouble from those who shouted loudest.
It is interesting to see how the early Church resolved this dispute. All sides were allowed to speak. Peter spoke simply and passionately of his mission to the Gentiles, pointing out that the Holy Spirit of God who brought men to him made no distinction between Jews and gentiles, which was, he explained, why he did likewise – adding yokes to the necks of the people was, of course, precisely what the Lord had preached against. He, like Paul and Barnabas who followed him, were effectively saying their job was to make men more like Christ, not to make them like themselves; it was to Christ we are to be conformed, after all.
No doubt those Pharisees in the movement had expected such arguments from those who were living among Gentiles, but they could not make the same criticism of James, who was famously devout and orthodox – and his declaration was effectively for Paul, Peter and Barnabas. He pointed out, referring to Amos 9:11-12 that what was happening with the Gentiles was what the prophet had foretold, and so advised that greater yokes should not be put on them. It was enough, he said, that they should abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality and from meat from beasts which had been strangled.
The process here is interesting. The elders who had reached the decision put it to the Jerusalem community, who approved of it. We see here pastoral sensitivity by James. His decision amounted to less than a full ‘victory’ for either side. No doubt some from the Pharisees went away grumbling about James going soft, and perhaps Paul was less pleased than he might have been. But guided by the Spirit, James had managed to guide the Church to a decision which took into account the views of all parties, but managed to avoid schism. That suggests that the grumblers (and it is impossible to believe there were none) put their own views second to the interests of the Church. An example for all time – which had it been followed, might have avoided much distress.
Quite, and important points they are. I have this theory, it applies here, and elsewhere, too. If one side in pretty much any dispute gains a complete victory, well they don’t because it will prove to be not a victory, but a division. When these type of things come up, all sides must end up satisfied, or at least equally dissatisfied. Doesn’t necessarily make for a quiet congregation, but it makes for a sturdy, and lasting one.
That link to Catholic Bridge is a fascinating one, which would pay each of us well to read thoughtfully and prayerfully.
Thanks for that, and this article, as well, C. 🙂
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Thank you Neo. Yes, that’s a rather good site which I recommend to anyone interested in such things.
What’s interesting here is that no doubt the Pharisees looked to James for support, and when he did not come across wholly, they really had nowhere else to go except leave; similarly, Paul did not get all he wanted, but he got enough. James seems to have behaved like a good leader here, making sure that within the limits of what God wanted, no one was left entirely defeated. I wish St Cyril of Alexandria had had that gift at Ephesus in 431, or that those in charge at Chalcedon had thought about James’ example – because you are, I think, right – too great a victory makes the victors cocky.
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Agree with all you say here. The example that runs in my mind is the comparison between the English Civil War and ours, very similar wars, and both fought very hard. Seems to me the difference that let us come back together relatively easily can be ascribed easily to Lincoln’s advice to Grant and Sherman, “Let ’em up easy.” It went a bit pear shaped later, and caused problems but that basic concept helped immensely.
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They should also abstain from blood, apparently. So no black puddings.
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Geoffrey might have views here 🙂
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I never much liked black pudding but at the moment I am in Tenerife and they make a delicious sweet black pudding with dates.
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Cardinal Newman, while still an Anglican:
“Granting that the forms are not immediately from God, still long use has made them divine to us; for the spirit of religion has so penetrated and quickened them, that to destroy them is, in respect of the multitude of men, to unsettle and dislodge the religious principle itself. In most minds usage has so identified them with the notion of religion, that the one cannot be extirpated without the other. Their faith will not bear transplanting.”
“This is why the Church itself is attacked, because it is the living form, the visible body of religion; and shrewd men know that when it goes, religion will go too. This is why they rail at so many usages as superstitious; or propose alterations and changes, a measure especially calculated to shake the faith of the multitude.”
‘Rites which the Church has {78} appointed, and with reason,—for the Church’s authority is from Christ,—being long used, cannot be disused without harm to our souls.”
__ J.H. Newman, Sermon “Ceremonies of the Chuch,” included in Newman Against the Liberals: 25 Classic Sermons by John Henry Newman
http://www.newmanreader.org/works/parochial/volume2/sermon7.html
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Is this a checkmate or a draw? Just wondering! 🙂
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It depends whether you give Newman the same weight as a Pope and a few thousand bishops I guess 🙂
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Not so sure about how many bishops supported or were coerced but then Athanasius in time was awarded the win. So I guess I’ll call it a draw until the ‘development’ is over; though I will be long dead before a winner is announced. 🙂
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true 🙂
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🙂
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I get it !
Amoris Laetitia is just an organical development of the teachings of the Council of Jerusalem !
Nobody sacrifices to idols anymore, not least for fear of running afoul of animal rights activists.
Refraining from blood and meat from beasts which had been strangled was always meant to be a temporary prohibition and just became obsolete. (Not to mention the yuck factor).
Finally, Amoris Laetitia dealt away with sexual immorality.
The spirit of Jerusalem I as finally managed to free itself from rigid, legalistic pharisees.
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Some might say that – I could not possibly comment.
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RE: Latin
I couldn’t care what language the Traditional Mass is said in: it is the substance that is important not the accidents.
On the practicality of the vernacular: Today we have less priests than we have parishes by far. Within a short drive I can go to a Spanish, Korean, Vietnamese, Philippine, Chinese Mass . . . but nothing in Latin (still the language of the Church). So our seminarians are learning every vernacular in the book to pastor to their flocks in their own languages. VII did not expect the Latin to be removed: but it was. Before VII I could go to Mass anywhere in the world and hear the Roman Rite and not be lost and you only needed one priest per parish because Latin was all he needed. Today we have traveling bands of priests who offer their particular vernacular in a number of parishes. I can be in the same parish and not know 20% of the faces within the entire parish for they are all in ther own little multi-cultural group. So much for community.
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Circumcision: Wasn’t this the point where the argument was whether to add something to the Jewish Circumcision or to recognize that circumcision had been replaced by Baptism? I think this argument is rather an odd one concerning liturgy?
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The traditionalists of Jersusalem stated, accurately, that the Law of Moses required circumcision, no one at the Council mounted the argument it had been replaced by baptism. So if we stay with the text we see that the traditionalists were told that this was a yoke too far.
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You make a great point, the priest in our parish are fluent in Spanish, French and English to say the masses in those languages due to the different immigrants in my community. We have a priest from Africa, which he’s my favorite out of our three–due to his zeal for faith. He spoke in his homily during this weeks Gospel about the divisions in the Catholic Church. He has an accent, so many of the parishioners have brought tension, perhaps even dislike?, inside of the walls of the Church due to his subtle difference. In fact, I heard behind me in the pew this week, “I can tell you why there’s not many in this mass, because the colored priest is here.” I was floored that something like that would be said in the walls of the Church in the presence of God.
However, the priest, during his homily this week took these folks to task about the divisions in the general Church and the divisions in our own parish. He said, “If I’m going too fast because of my accent, simply raise your hand, I will slow down. There is no need for anger to build in your hearts from something so trivial. We have too many cliques within these walls. When Mexican immigrants come into the Church and do things a certain way you reject them. When African immigrants come to this Church your reject them. You tell them things like this is our country you have to speak English. I tell you, when you do these things you do not love Christ, you do not follow his commands.”
Of course, I paraphrased his message, however, a striking note would be in a Church full of different types of Catholics from different communities, wouldn’t Latin and a true Catholic Culture unify these pointless divisions?
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I would think so. Today we had our parish picnic so we had many Mexicans in our midst. So we had a bilingual Masss . . . mixed up Spanish and English so that both got 1/2 of a Mass that they could understand except for those fortunate few that were bilingual. They are nice people and I would like to get ot know some of them but we are separated on most Sundays.
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Indeed, I attended Good Friday service in a Parish that our priest service which is largely Mexican. The devoutness of these people were so inspiring, they had a man soloist during the adoration of the cross singing a Spanish hymn and the way that he sang it brought tears to my eyes. I didn’t understand, but I felt the tabernacle empty due to this man’s faith.
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The other thing I notice about the Latino’s is that they are honest about their state of sin. Many of them do not go up for Reception of the Eucharist while the Anglo’s almost to a person do. It’s nice to see a sensitivity to sin.
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There’s certainly an idea among those Anglo/Germanic Catholics where I’m from that they are owed the Sacrament. Of course, it’s not the case. In fact, sometimes with poor country folk in the old countries they may only receive once a year during Easter.
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I have been a proponent of vernacular mass but understand that it does not make me an enemy of the TLM. In my own observation, I honestly believe that both sides of the argument dwell in hyperbole.
Notwithstanding, I took Latin courses in college, and from those lessons only the grammar was present. However, I have been studying the language again on my own. Perhaps, my quick advancement is due to my own classes, but the book “Getting Started with Latin” by William Linney is a fantastic text, which I believe teaches the language how we naturally learned our own language. The problem to me with the college courses is that they wanted me to know the proper conjugations and declensions before I could knew more than a handful of Latin vocab.
Latin, in many ways, is uniquely Catholic–a large part because the Romans don’t exist anymore. Therefore, the language, as all languages of ethnic peoples, unify us in our faith. So I say to my fellow Catholics, It’s not something that should be thrown to wayside, our unique culture will and does evangelize. One of the appeals of the Flyte family in Brideshead was that Charles thought then a cultural oddity.
Let us accept this unique nature.
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Good point. We are quick to understand why Spanish or Korean or other cultures consider their language part of what unites them as a community; isn’t it, or wasn’t it that which bound the Catholic Culture together? I think so. To lose it would be a great shame and a fast road to a Tower of Babel situation.
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Indeed, Catholicism is a unique culture. It’s one of the sad parts that it is not being recognized as such in the current world. After reading Brideshead and BXVI’s books, it’s definitely something I will fight to preserve, it fuels my motivation to make my Latin stronger.
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Good man. We need a revival and our priests should be taught their own Cultural tongue.
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“Latin, in many ways, is uniquely Catholic”
Latin is also the language used by the government that tried to snuff out followers of Christ, and in theretofore unheard of barbaric fashion.
The spirit of Rome still lives.
Im putting together a hard hitting post about the Anti Christ. Scripture says he will be a descendant of the Prince that destroyed Jerusalem.
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I took Latin at school, between the ages of 12 and 15. I think the declensions are important – and since they were going light on grammar in English, the Latin class was the only place where we really did get a decent sense of grammar.
We didn’t study any texts related to Christian religion; we got a lot of Virgil’s Aeneid, which I enjoyed, about the spear guided by fate, etc … etc …. so I was able to learn quite a lot of Latin – and enjoy it – without ever realising that it was supposed to be a religious language.
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Indeed, Latin is when I finally learned grammar. Previously, I had never heard of an indicative, imperative, subjunctive sentences even through high school.
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True – but it does beg the question, to which I have seen no answer, why almost everyone dumped TLM.
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Well, let’s talk in terms of the language of the material world and see if we can understand modern man. I remember not too long ago Microsoft changed its operating system format from Windows XP to the format most of their current operating systems have to Windows 7 (or now greater). It’s in modern man’s nature to feel the compulsion to progress, it’s what mankind is supposed to do. The format and OS are new; therefore, it must be better. So many people got the new OS, but it was horrid, and in the TECH world, word got around and everyone did the best they could to reinstall Windows XP back to their computers.
So to answer your question, why did most people dump? It’s very valid to suppose they do so because mankind likes new shiny things. It’s also valid to suppose that some people stick to their move out of their own pride. It’s also valid to assert that changes in the Church occur in a much slower fashion, so the whiplash may still be developing, and those wanting the Catholic Church old OS may continue to grow.
My humble thoughts for conversation.
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Interesting thoughts. I’ve always presumed they did so because they thought the new OS would be better – do you think that was the case here too?
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It’s certainly a possibility, I do think things are better or have been better with changes after Vatican II. However, it doesn’t make it all better, and fixes do take time to occur, but we also have to cautious of it getting worse. For example, The Liturgy of the Mass, Michigan Man posted pictures of “NFL Seahawks Mass”
Now, I take issue with this entering into the vernacular mass or even having a chance to enter into the mass. The Incarnation of the Christ, was an event of the sacred and the profane. The Holiness of the Mass, but be preserved.
Of course, that’s one example, In the United States prior to Vatican II and the election of John F. Kennedy in many parts of this country Catholic were seen as second class citizens by Protestants–although this feeling still remains with many evangelicals. My wife a Lutheran and myself would have been ostracized by both our Churches, this does still occur a bit, nothing like it in a prior age. The changes that occurred after VII did help this divide in this country, I belief.
Of course, like Microsoft, they did updates to their OS to help bring back some of the older features and integrate them into the new product, which The Catholic Church has done so as well, for example, Pope Benedict XVI.
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The ones that understood the stakes didn’t. But then they were in schism and yet, thanks to them, the extraordinary form has returned in folks like the FSSP which came directly from the SSPX. So a great good came out of Marcel Lefebvre in my estimation.
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Latin and Greek used be necessary for any scientific course in University – doctors chemists etc used them in their communications to each other. The rise of the consumer who insisted on knowing what was in his prescription etc meant that these languages became obsolete for all practical purposes.
I have a vague recollection of being told that the Christians of the East didn’t use Latin but their own language which St Cyril devised for them and is still known as Cyrillic x
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Yes, the Slavic Christians received a written script devised by SS Cyril and Methodius.
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Slavonic
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You are quite right about Acts being somewhat neglected. The fact that it currently replaces the Old Testament as first reading in these Easter season Sunday readings is also a kind of symbolism. I have been doing the first readings (in Spanish) on Sundays recently in Finestrat, but today I was at Mass in Sella – in search of a property to make my hermitage (see donkey blog) – so I didn’t read: it was a more complicated reading, so I was glad!
On the arguments around traditionals/liberals etc., I have nothing to add to your excellent piece. I got my fingers burnt last year with “traditionals” and I keep well clear of the factionalism now. Time to keep quiet, watch and pray.
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Very wise, Gareth – and I hope the search for a hermitage is fruitful.
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‘His decision amounted to less than a full ‘victory’ for either side. …. perhaps Paul was less pleased than he might have been. …. a decision which took into account the views of all parties, but managed to avoid schism.’
Sorry to be at odds – I got the impression that the decision was straight down-the-line Christianity, no compromise at all – and is entirely in line with Paul in both Romans and 1 Corinthians (and other places) where he explains that all things are permitted, but not all things are appropriate, one shouldn’t do things that cause a brother to stumble, etc …..
It was a presentation of Christianity pure and simple and not some compromise arrived at to prevent schism.
By the way – I’ve seen a difference of opinion. I thought it was pretty clear that this counsel was what Paul was referring to in Galatians, but others don’t seem to think so. What would your line be?
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…. the key point here (of course) being that there was a real and fundamental change from before the crucifixion and after the resurrection – the ceremonial law was fulfilled.
This has nothing to do with the petty liberal/traditionalist arguments of today.
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On the contrary, I think it is precisely parallel. If the ceremonial law was fulfilled, why the prohibition of meat not killed in the kosher way?
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there is a lot more to kosher slaughter than simply not strangling. If Paul really did lose the battle over kosher food laws as you suggest, the restrictions would have been much greater.
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That’s an interesting interpretation of Acts 15:20 – I’d be interested to see how you back that up – as it gives less than Paul wanted. My line would be that Paul ends up interpreting this quite widely, and the Gentiles do so to an even greater extent. I do not, for example, think anyone now refrains from blood and meat where the animal was strangled – but I have no record of any council withdrawing that stipulation.
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My only thought on that, and you are correct, we don’t pay much attention, is the very narrow one that very little, if any, meat in mainstream commercial trade is strangled, it is rendered unconscious (usually killed, outright) and bled out – the technical term is ‘knocked’. Strangulation is simply much too slow, and contaminates the meat from a health standpoint. Incidentally, most of the dietary restrictions from the Old Testament, likewise have modern equivalents in health regulation.
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Yes, it’s interesting that it is so.
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I’ve always thought so, at least.
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One of the prohibitions in the Old Testament law was the eating of meat and milk together because the cow who yielded her milk could have been the mother of the animal which provided the milk, the reason being that it would be unseemly to do such a thing. This stricture is carried out to this day, with observant Jews going to the extremes of having separate dairy and meat kitchens.
As the Old Testament is reflected in the New, I think of Mary witnessing the death of her Son and wonder if anyone now or in antiquity has seen a link here.
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Interesting thought – be interested if anyone has.
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The end of the letter ‘You will do well to avoid these things’ seems to answer the question.
One point which may be irrelevant: Meat from strangled animals does have bad properties – in terms of the quantity of adrenaline pumping through the animal as it eventually goes to meet its maker and is generally bad for you.
It mitigates against the context to suggest (as you seem to be doing) that they replaced one ceremonial law (the Levitical prohibitions on a large number of animals – together with the very restrictive slaughter methods) with another (you can eat whatever you like and kill it however you like as long as you don’t strangle it).
We don’t know why they were told they would do well to avoid these things, but we do know that the principle that the ceremonial law had been fulfilled and therefore they were not bound by it had been well and truly established. Whether it was for practical reasons or whether it was so that weaker brethern wouldn’t be led into temptation by some strange sect is a question that isn’t answered by Acts.
The fact that you’re even asking the question of whether a subsequent council permitted strangled animals shows a certain legalism in the mind-set.
For the record, I do avoid strangled animals (not that the situation has arisen), because I imagine that the apostles had my general health in mind when they recommended this.
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In context it seems to me an obvious compromise to keep those insisting on kosher at least partly satisfied.
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‘It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us ….’ This is a blatant lie if it seemed like a half-baked compromise to some of them. Furthermore, it’s not part of Paul’s character to say that it seems good to him when it doesn’t – and to blame it all on the Holy Spirit.
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Don’t really think the claimed parallel between the Council of Jerusalem and the traditionalist vs innovation debate today holds.
First, the decision to abandon circumcision and other Jewish laws was the result of divine revelation to Peter and the others – and the Church has always taught that revelation did not end until the last Apostle was dead.
The task of the successors of the apostles by contrast is to preserve the Apostolic tradition, not to change it.
Secondly, traditionalists aren’t arguing that Latin is necessary for validity, but rather that it is one of a number of things about the traditional mass that makes it a better form of worship. Latin is helpful because it helps convey a sense of the sacred, but there are other more important dimensions of the traditional Mass, such as the preservation of the concept that the Mass is a sacrifice.
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I agree the parallels are not exact. But the Lord did give Peter and the Apostles the power to bind and loose, and never once said that excluded liturgical development. TLM in its Tridentine form was not the same as the Sarum or Ambrosian rites. The Church has full power to decide of liturgical form.
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Not really very familiar with these earlier rites though is it not true that the TLM ‘grew from these earlier forms of worship’ being careful to retain their propitiatory and expiatory aspects and perhaps even augmenting them? You may know that . . . but I would have to get my hands on the earlier forms and read an English translation in order to do a comparison. But I have a sneaking suspicion that nothing was lost but that something might have been gained by the changes. I have great expectations of those early agents of change since the development seemed almost as though it came down from Heaven itself. Maybe not. A good critique and comparison between both rites would be enlightening. All I know is that it had great staying power within the Church. Even the Novus Ordo couldn’t deliver a death blow to the old form.
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There are certainly elements from the earlier rites in the NO. The bottom line is the one in one of those links I posted. The Church has authorised this, as it has others Masses – Rome has spoken, the matter is settled.
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If it was settled then Pope Pius V settled it long before Pope Paul VI. In fact his statement seems to me the language one uses when speaking Ex Cathedra. I see no such language with the introductio of the New.
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There is nothing in Trent which says it cannot be changed – indeed there were, as the article I linked to, changes before the 20th century.
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“By this our decree, to be valid IN PERPETUITY, we determine and order that NEVER shall anything be added to, omitted from, or changed in this Missal. . .At no time in the future can a priest, whether secular or order priest, ever be forced to use any other way of saying Mass. And so as to preclude once and for all any scruples of conscience and fear of ecclesiastical penalties and censures, we herewith declare that it is in virtue of our Apostolic Authority that we decree and determine that this our present order and decree is to last in PERPETUITY and can never be legally revoked or amended at a future date. . . And if anyone would nevertheless ever dare to attempt any action contrary to this order of ours, given for all times, let him know that he has incurred the wrath of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.”
I think the Church took the position that this statement pertained to the essence and formula of the Mass. Yes, changes were made but were minor and did not chnage the essence of the Mass. One could argue against these changes and I know that some do . . . but there is no doubt that the changes engendered in the Novus Ordo went far beyond this.
Hope you enjoyed singing Shine Jesus Shine, Lord of the Dance and Sing a New Church Into Being today. Nothing like music to make the heart soar. 🙂
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No Pope can bind his successors on liturgical matters. The NO Mass is a valid rite. It may not be to our taste, but no one elected us Pope 😄
As it happens, I find even TLM inferior as a liturgy to the St John Chrysostom in Greek – now there is the liturgy which made Slav visitors to Constantinople wonder whether they were on earth or in heaven. I know how they felt. Much older and more sonorous than TLM. I was, more than once, fortunate enough to attend the Syrian version of the Liturgy of St James. That one dates back to the 4th century. So when we get to discussing Mass forms, I can’t get over excited about one only 500 years old 😄
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Why is that? Is there an exception made and who defined that rule? Validity,licitly, and prudence or disobedience are different animals. To defy what sounds like an ex cathedra pronouncement seems to defy how we settle arguments in the Church. It seems Pope St. Pius V did just that. I was never elected Pope and don’t claim to have been; but Pope Saint Pius V was.
I can understand the beauty of other rites and if they have the same ends and express the ends for this Sacrifice on the Altar I have no problem that they are accepted and loved by other cultures. But this was the Roman Rite that was our inheritance. Nobody, according to Pope Saint Pius V has or had a right to take it from us or to alter it. Seems the St. John Christostom Mass understood that fact even without a dire warning from the Pope or a Metropolitan.
Where you see a 500 year old form, I see a development that stretches back and unfolded organically in time until the (perhaps, ex cathedra) statement by Pope St. Pius V. 🙂
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Trent made some changes, and changes have been made since then. Liturgies evolve. I am no fan of the NO, but if the Church says it is valid and licit, that settles it for me.
The older liturgies I mentioned are even more beautiful, and as a European, as much a part of my heritage as Latin. I really can’t work myself into much of a fuss about the Tridentine Mass as I experienced it a few times in my youth when I went with school friends – my memories are of watching people up front doing something with incense, whilst the people in the pews occupied themselves with their rosary or saying their prayers. I daresay that was Liverpool for you, and I daresay the NO is no better conducted either – last time I attended Mass there that seemed, alas, to be the case.
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My question is more of prudence and disobedience to a Sainted Pope. No argument from me as to validity and licitness as Christ will take care of His flock.
As Dietrich von Hildebrand explained the loss of the reverence and sense of the spiritual was on decline. Seems to me the NO only accelerated that slide. I don’t get worked up over it either . . . but I do recognize why those who DID have a spiritual sense of what went on at the Mass and who had good and reverent priests were shocked and dismayed at what Rome delivered in its place.
And indeed, I still find lades saying their rosaries at Mass and much worse; like chatting and laughing during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. So it fixed nothing of what it intended to fix, so what was the point of taking people through what Newman so eloquently catalogued as human nature to this kind of upheaval?
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The first Mass had neither elevating music, fine vestments, flowers, incense or golden vesssels but it had a Victim who was offered for all sinners “at a place outside the city”… a young bull without blemish…
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And as Jessica keep emphasising, what matters is all Masses is who we meet in the Feast – everything else is a matter of taste and opinion. If the Church authorises it, it is a Mass – roma loquitur causa finita – as it were 🙂
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And if anyone would nevertheless ever dare to attempt any action contrary to this order of ours, given for all times, let him know that he has incurred the wrath of Almighty God
Haaaaaahahaha (;-D
Let me check my calendar…..um…what year is this?
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Good brother Chalcedon, I forgot how to make a post here. I want to do one on the Anti Christ. Good sister Jess is dying to read it. Thanks in advance
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You should be able to access the dashboard and see the menu – if you press create new post, you should be able to do so.
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Umm … you really want to encourage him? Shome mishtake shurely.
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Whats the matter good brother Jock? I already promised good brother Chalcedon I will be nice.
Appox on you.
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It only allows me to post on my posthumous site or the western front. Those are my only options.
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I vote that you post it on your posthumous site, Bosco. Then you can reread it anytime you want as probably you will be the author and sole audience for this most exciting work.
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Hmmmm….that’s an idea.
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Don’t you have to be dead to have a posthumous site?
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Jock – apparently his site once was alive but now is dead. I think he might want to attempt a resurrection of said site. Nothing is impossible for the born again.
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My high and mighty site is alive for evermore…amen.
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Ok, let me look to see what can be done.
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I can email it to you and you can put it up, and find a good pic for it. I trust your artistic nature.
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I am famous for saying that Rome is not one of the 7 churches. But it is rumored that Thyatira is the church at Rome. It has female worship and is in trouble with god. Sounds good. The CC is female worship at it worsterester..
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Well, Jerusalem is not one of the 7 churches either Bosco, but we know from Acts and Paul’s letters that there was one – so where does that leave your famous claim?
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Rite, no church at Jerusalem. Say, I didn’t write the bible. Don’t look at me.
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Since Acts and Paul say there was, your reading must be wrong. It is, John was referring to the 7 churches in Asia.
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Theres a number of things in Rev that we cant know. The world has to wait for things to happen befor they become apparent. Say, do you have that book that has all the magisterium interpretations of the bible? If so, could you look thru it and see what it has come up with about the 1290 days in Rev? Cause we mortals don’t seem to get that one. Then, to make things worster, god adds another 45 days to that. So, if you can, let me know what the magisterium has pronounced on that. Thanks in advance.
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Oh, PS, John wasn’t referring to anything….Those are red letter…its Jesus doing the talking.
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If your interpretation means that there was no church in Jerusalem, you are simply wrong.
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I don’t interpret. I take scripture at face value. Religions that are ungodly say scripture doesn’t mean what it says. They are forced to.
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OK – well you are most ungodly. Scripture says clearly there was a church in Jerusalem – see Acts 15.
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English is more a language of business as is German. The French, Spanish and Italian languages all derive from Latin and are known as the “romance languages”. At Pentecost, people were able to hear the apostles speak in each one’s mother tongue – the Anglcan church made no headway in Ireland because of its insistance on people having to learn the language of the conquerer – among other nefarious doings.
Last Sunday our priest reminded us that the first Christians were not known by the Sign of the Cross, the Sign of the Fish or even the name Christian – they were known as the people who loved one another.
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Yes, and indeed using Latin in the West was, ironically, to drop the original language of Scripture for the local tongue in a bid to be more comprehensible.
Sure, Latin is one part of our European heritage, so is Greek, and so are our vernacular languages. I have Latin A level, and did it as part of my degree, but I can’t say I find Latin, as a language, anywhere near as flexible as English – which is no doubt why people stopped using it in everyday life.
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Yes, and taking on board what Ann says as well, we could say as much for French, Spanish, and the rest. English has, for the most part, become the new Latin, for good or ill. It’s innate flexibility, and ability to conform to all needs has made it so. It’s one of those things that no one can mandate, although the insistence of the English and the Americans that if one wishes to deal with us, it will be in English, has something to do with it, as do the empires.
As most here know, I speak a bit of German, which is fine, but it is not nearly as fit for purpose as English, in any case I’ve found. And that’s a point in relation to the Mass. (Itself a medieval English coinage). I can understand why some promote Latin as the proper language, and even sympathize, but, of what use is a language of worship if the worshippers don’t understand the worship? And in most of the world, mostly excepting British (maybe European) higher education, few understand Latin. I fail to see much utility, whatever it’s heritage, and beauty, in its use.
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There are good reasons Latin lost the struggle for survival as a living language – the ones that replaced it were more useful.
I’ve no problem with it as a liturgical language.
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I frankly have no problem, and no connection, either. Luther pretty much settled the problem for me. 🙂
That doesn’t mean that I find it hurtful, in any way either, but merely of, perhaps, limited utility.
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As Dave rightly points out, there was nothing in V2 which meant abandoning Latin – yet it was done everywhere – tells its own story. Most priests clearly did not find it useful/
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True enough, my experience, although very limited, in Indiana pre V2 with Latin in the Mass, paralleled almost completely your in Liverpool. I just don’t think it worked very well for everyday purposes. I could easily be wrong though, I was pretty young, and mostly it felt like ‘The Other’.
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There are 2 other reasons Latin is a suitable language for a Church that wants to preserve Her teachings with clarity: 1) that a dead language no longer suffers from the changing sense of words and changing idioms that the vernacular does . . . preserving the Truths intact, and 2) the construct of Latin (the ability to move subjects and objects within a sentence whilst still maintaining the meaning) makes it ideal for the musician who wants to impart Catholic Truths through song whilst making the verses rhyme and flow as though the angels themselves were the composers.
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I’m afraid the first does not work at all. As I discovered long ago, thinking we have the exact English equivalent for every Latin word is a mug’s game. You only have to look at the new English translation – what fool thought ‘chalice’ a good translation for ‘calix’? Jesus did not use a ‘chalice’ at the Last Supper. So, alas, I wish it were true that dead languages don’t change, but when they have to be translated, they do.
I’m really not terribly sure about the musical case – remember the Church at one point condemned polyphony – how dreadful if it had succeeded in killing it 🙂
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Since many cups were shaped as the modern chalice (used one side up for food and the other side up for drink) I don’t think that is so very odd. But mostly, your example says nothing about the preservation of the sense of the documents preserved in Latin. If your language is still developing (as is English) I do wonder what grave mistakes would be made concerning the language of say 100 years ago before the slang and idioms of modern language took its toll . . . and it is far from done. In fact, the same English today is used differently by blacks than it is by whites.
You are saying that it is possible to write a flowing version of Adoro Te Devote or Tantum Ergo and convey the full meaning and beauty of the verses in Latin then? I think we have done well with them but they are by no means accurate when sung in the vernacular. The English language is much harder to rhyme as the Latin does so quite easily in most instances. 🙂
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I should be very surprised to hear that a good translator could not do just that. There’s a lot of rhyme in Engish – at least last time I read Byron or Betjeman or Thomas.
Chalice has obvious medieval reference points, at least in England, and is therefore not a good translation.
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It’s medeival reference points only points out the lasting power of a simplistic and lasting good idea of design. The medieval construction is obviously a development from eating and drinking vessels that far predate that period of time. Do I believe that the foot looks like modern ones or that the original had a collar and a knob? No, of course not. But many cups that were used upright and upside down existed as well as a simple cup only used for drinking. Both were common. As we have no record of what it looked like it seems a rather weak argument.
As to the language used in song . . . we disagree. There is something more poetic to my ear in hearing the words Panis Angelicus rather than the English, Bread of Angels. Forget our great poets for a moment. I am speaking of imparting spiritual truths and sentiment to music that doubles as great poetry.
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We know what ordinary drinking cups were like – and they were not chalices.
I find nothing as uplifting as Tallis and Byrd, in both Latin and English
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I too like Tallis and Byrd and did not mean to imply (which I am sure I didn’t) that there are no good Hymns or chants (plainsong) written in English with very good words. My point is the simplicity of the rhyming endings and tenses of words within Latin which makes it most suitable for not just rhyming of the last words of each verse but also for the internal rhyme which almost comes naturally. English is not so simple if that is what you want to accomplish in a composition. It is much more difficult.
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I enjoy Byrd, his compositions to me give one a sense of the Lamentations of Jeremiah in every tone. I feel his calling for his native land to return to Catholicism.
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Quite so – and perhaps one day?
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Perhaps, but I see that Many folks aren’t choosing between different faiths, instead they’re choosing secularism instead of faith. A true feeling of the tabernacle being left empty…
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I agree. That’s why I admire those who are out there evangelising.
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Have you seen this, C. It is what I have been reading about for years. Here is how the Diocese of Lincoln, NE has beat the odds and outperforms every Diocese in the nation for turning out priests and good faithful Catholics without any of the divisional hatred between Traditionals and Novus Ordo worshipers.
https://liturgyguy.com/2016/04/30/why-arent-other-dioceses-looking-to-lincoln/
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Excellent – that’s what one wants to see.
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