The long-awaited Apostolic Exhortation, Amoris Laetitia – The Joy of Love -is now available on line. For those of us who have had sight of it only now, it will take time to digest – 264 pages are not to be understood on a skim read. The Catholic Herald has a good summary here. What is already clear is that this is not going to stop the entirely predictable reactions. On the liberal side, we are already hearing the false dichotomy – ‘less dogma, more love’. Quite what any Catholic who believes dogma and love are opposites is thinking with is unclear; one can see why an uncomprehending secularist might leap to such a conclusion – it fits, presumably, with their view that the Church is a hypocritical organisation more concerned with rules than with reality; but why a believing Catholic would join them is not clear. It might, perhaps, be something to do with the other entirely predictable reaction from self-styled traditionalists, who deplore what they see as a watering down of dogma and and gut reaction against any call for ‘greater acceptance of non-traditional families’. One thing alone is clear – neither extreme in this discussion is going to like this document – it not only does not give them what they want, it exhorts them to think again; people often dislike that most of all. We have, they tend to think, clear cut views and here they are – why is this man asking us to rethink things we have already decided are settled? The document explains why.
When, in paragraph 3, the Pope says that “not all discussions of doctrinal, moral or pastoral issues need to be settled by interventions of the magisterium”, and indeed, that for some questions, “each country or region … can seek solutions better suited to its culture and sensitive to its traditions and local needs. For ‘cultures are in fact quite diverse and every general principle… needs to be inculturated, if it is to be respected and applied’” (AL 3), that will dismay some who want a simple and clear theoretical line which can be applied in all cases; such people should go back and read why the Pope says this:
Unity of teaching and practice is certainly necessary in the Church, but this does not preclude various ways of interpreting some aspects of that teaching or drawing certain consequences from it. This will always be the case as the Spirit guides us towards the entire truth (cf. Jn 16:13), until he leads us fully into the mystery of Christ and enables us to see all things as he does
This is a document grounded in the difficult and practical business of trying to apply God’s love to the mess that so many of us make of our lives in this area. In recognising that one size does not fit all, the Pope is trying to avoid to avoid a sterile contest between demands for change and the general application of abstract norms. He writes:
“The debates carried on in the media, in certain publications and even among the Church’s ministers, range from an immoderate desire for total change without sufficient reflection or grounding, to an attitude that would solve everything by applying general rules or deriving undue conclusions from particular theological considerations” (AL 2)
In real life in these areas, things are messy and seldom, if ever, reducible to black and white (AL305), and the church cannot apply moral laws as if they were “stones to throw at people’s lives” (AL305). The Holy Father calls, instead, for a pastoral approach marked by understanding, compassion and accompaniment. This last word, which will, I suspect be met with snorts of incredulity from some, refers back to an approach made familiar by St John Paul II, who reminded us that Christ himself had accompanied us into the most extreme of the situations we can encounter – a cruel and unjust death by torture, and that as the alter Christus it is the job of the priest to accompany us on our journeys so we can be better guided and come to understand what it is God wants of us.
There is, it seems to me on a first reading, much wisdom here, but it will, as is the case in such matters, satisfy neither those who insist black and white is black and white, or those who want to turn the Catholic Church into the Anglican Church. The words of the final paragraph need to be heeded:
no family drops down from heaven perfectly formed; families need constantly to grow and mature in the ability to love. This is a never ending vocation born of the full communion of the Trinity, the profound unity between Christ and his Church, the loving community which is the Holy Family of Nazareth, and the pure fraternity existing among the saints of heaven. Our contemplation of the fulfilment which we have yet to attain also allows us to see in proper perspective the historical journey which we make as families, and in this way to stop demanding of our interpersonal relationships a perfection, a purity of intentions and a consistency which we will only encounter in the Kingdom to come. It also keeps us from judging harshly those who live in situations of frailty. (AL325)
Those who insist dialogue is a tool to wear down the faithful (a direct quotation from something posted recently) should hesitate before taking on themselves sole responsibility for being ‘the faithful’, and they might also ask at what point we sinners stop talking to each other, and Holy Mother Church stops talking to us. Yes, for sure, it is easier if a Father simply says here are the rules, obey them or go, but that looks terribly like a form of child abuse, and seems far from the way of Jesus with sinners. The religious authorities of his day were, from their own point of view, right to condemn him for keeping fellowship with whores and tax collectors and other sinners, but Jesus knew where he was needed most – as does his Church. I daresay, on closer inspection, there will be much to be mulled over and discussed – and from a constructive dialogue, much good can come. From a dialogue of the deaf, from those determined to reduce this rich document to a few bullet points to ‘prove’ either that the Pope is not a Catholic, or that he is not really a liberal, little that is good will come.
This is a rich, stimulating and illuminating document, which we should read with prayer for better understanding, both of it, and of how the Church can accompany all of us on our journeys. Am I going to agree with all of it? Am I going to find some of it ‘too vague’? I suspect the answers are ‘no’ to the first, and ‘yes’ to the second. But I am not going to fail to do what the Pope wants, which is to read it carefully and reflect on it and to learn from it too. As the Pope says:
“I understand those who prefer a more rigorous pastoral care which leaves no room for confusion. But I sincerely believe that Jesus wants a church attentive to the goodness which the Holy Spirit sows in the midst of human weakness.”
If that is what the Spirit is leading the Holy Father to believe, we should, I think, reflect prayerfully before we reject that approach for the certainties we think we have.
There is a good summary here by Dr Stephen Bullivant of St Mary’s, Twickenham.
It the quotation on the Pope’s explanation is interesting. I remember talks about him wishing to decentralize the Church and allow the Bishops more freedom. Do you think this is what he attempting to explain?
If this is the case, I think there are rewards and dangers to this approach. It may allow protestant communions to become in full communion with Rome, however, it may allow to further schism or possible into heresy by renegade Bishops.
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No, I think what he is saying is that bishops on the ground may be best placed to know how to apply the teaching of the church in their pastoral circumstances. He is very much not going down the Anglican road.
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Lousy protestants
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He is dealing with very difficult things here, and I admire him for doing so. After reading you, and the Herald article, I will be reading the full work.
I think we all need to take guidance from where we can find good guidance, and something that so often goes by the wayside when we argue is the entire concept of pastoral care, and that can have dangerous consequences for people in bad situations.
I further think for those who see things as black and white, or white and black, well Benedict at Regensburg had some words they would be wise to take on board.
“In fact, in the speech’s very last paragraph, Benedict called upon his audience “to rediscover” the “great logos”: “this breadth of reason” which, he maintained, orthodox Christianity has always regarded as a prominent feature of God’s nature. The pope’s use of the word “rediscover” indicated that something had been lost and that much of the West and the Christian world had themselves fallen into the grip of other forms of un-reason. Irrationality can, after all, manifest itself in expressions other than mindless violence.”
from:
http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Item/4686/regensburg_revisited_ten_years_later_a_west_still_in_denial.aspx
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A good reminder Neo – and yes, I think there is a huge amount of wisdom in what the Pope has written; clever people might be too sharp to see it 🙂
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Well, we all manage to outsmart ourselves, often! 🙂
I’ve started it, but you are correct, it demands slow contemplative reading, but a huge amount of value in it.
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Glad you agree Neo.
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Pretty obvious, a lengthy, caring document.
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I’ve just added a note to this piece by Stephen Bullivant
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2016/04/08/amoris-laetitia-is-kitchen-sink-theology-and-all-the-better-for-it/
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Indeed, a very good, and open synopsis of the document. I like it a great deal.
Particularly the term: ‘Kitchen Sink Theology’. 🙂
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It’s begun, our Lebrevian friend from yesterday has just posted on his blog, “Out with the Old, In with the new.” The quotes you’ve pulled from the text, I don’t get that feeling.
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That could be, and was (here) predicated. Liberal groups are ‘disappointed’. Looks like the Holy Father got it right. Part of me would be disappointed if those who read their way into Catholicism by the rule book were not a little outraged.
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Though I haven’t read and studied this behemoth yet (unlikely I will), it appears by the quotes and bits that I have read thus far that this is a call to follow your conscience more than the teachings of the Church. Now that is exactly what I gave up when I became a Catholic. I tested a few of my private beliefs, held by my private conscience and then after reading Catholic teaching which proved them wrong finally made the deceision that the Church knew best. From then on I fashioned my private conscience after the conscience of the Church. So far much that I have seen echoes the old psychological push for situation ethics. What is sin for you is not sin for me. What is true for you is not true for me etc.
Apparently you’ve read much more than I have but is this the thrust that you get? I am assuming not, judging by your laudatory post.
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If you follow the last link I have added the the Catholic Herald, you’ll see that it isn’t the thrust here.
The thrust is on out priests engaging with us where we are, as Jesus does, and not simply imagining one size fits all across the world. The rules remain what they are, but how they are applied depends upon our willingness to receive them and the formation of our conscience, and as mileage on both those varies, the priest is exhorted to know his flock well enough to help them. So, no, it’t not saying that a badly formed conscience should be our guide, but it is saying priests have to begin with the realisation that badly-formed consciences exist and to treat their owners as though that was not the case, isn’t the best place to start from.
I already see the reactions I predicted, which is a shame, as I doubt any of those tweeting and commentating can really have read it properly yet.
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I’m sure of that, as it is a magnus opus of sorts without a concrete conclusion I’m guessing due to the many views being expressed.
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If people really think that any document could cover the myriad situations priest will find himself in in even one parish, they are thinking in an unCatholic way. We know the rules, the question is how to deal with those who didn’t and often don’t. We’ve often said catechesis is poor to non-existent, this is a call for the church to consider the everyday consequences of that.
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Well that is really the point; i.e. where the rubber meets the road is how this is applied by a rather non-homogenous group of bishops and even more diverse group of priests. To some extent the bishops and priests have already been doing their own thing and I think analysis of the exhortation will be judged by just that. Just like the incorporation of the New Mass was implemented in ways that were as different as night and day depending on where you were, we might see Mass confusion coming to other matters once again . . . or it will change nothing. I guess we just have to wait and see how the bishops and bishop confrences receive this . . . and then how the individual priests implement it.
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There is no alternative – if the priest is the alter Christus, he has to accompany on our journey and find us where we are – not start by telling us we’re in the wrong place. Often, if we weren’t in the wrong place t begin with, we wouldn’t be seeking his help now.
Too often, it seems to me, we proceed as though the average Catholic was somehow real – that is had no marriage problems, had always been a Catholic, had been properly catechised and was resistant to sin. There may, somewhere, be such a paragon, but I’m not him!
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I don’t see us proceeding in that way at all . . . maybe more its opposite. The lines at the confessional are gone and the lines for reception of the eucharist are longer than they’ve ever been. Personal conscience (or lack of) has been the hallmark of the Church since Vatican II. That a few morsels of moral thelology are still there as barriers to profaning the sacrament and need be removed is probably the last vestige of any moral teaching that still abides and the only reason some people would ever use to approach a priest privately or in the Confessional and actually learn the answer to the question why. So it is this private forum of conscience that has prospered but it makes Pope Pius XII’s lament all the more accurate: “The sin of the century is the loss of the sense of sin.”
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Nothing in the document disagrees, but it is concerned with what we do now, not lamenting past mistakes.
If priests will not take the trouble to talk with their flocks and prefer to flout the rules, then there is nothing here which will tell them that’s OK.
There’s a very good comment here:
https://t.co/mvCYJeYZ5h
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Indeed and he made a good point about being dead in mortal sin. Funny that in all the different confessors I have gone to, I found them all gentle as a lamb. So much so that I thought that they should have given me far more to do in the way of penance.
It’s hard for priests to talk with their flocks personally if they won’t come to confession, set an appointment for a visit or go to lunch with him etc. But it is also hard, after many years of lax preaching to teach over a course of years all those things that should drive a soul to the confessional . . . the objective ones and not just the subjective ones. I’ve heard a few such homilies in the past but most were from missionary priests that did not have to live with the parish family week after week. The people don’t want it and won’t accept it and most likely will petition their bishop for a new priest. They rather like the soft message or, as we say in sales, sell the ‘sizzle’ not the steak.
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If so, they can’t find anything in this document to support such a stance. The Church can only prick consciences of the older generation, it can’t create them.
I am not at all sure what those criticising the document wanted – a simple ‘don’t sin’? There’s nothing here that condones sin, and if any practising Catholic is not aware that they ought not to commit sins, then it’s hard to see what can be done.
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I doubt that is what is driving it C. My own concern may be theirs as well, which is this. I can easily see how people will now forego telling the Church about their irregualar marriages or anything else that they are OK with in their own mind and in their own conscience. They will proceed on their own to receive the Eucharist without even broaching the subject with anyone in the Church. It will become another one of those ‘acceptable’ mortal sins like contraception.
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Well, there’s precisely nothing in this document which would justify that.
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There will be nothing in this document that will prevent such a misunderstanding of ‘conscience’ either. If they are so ignorant of Church teaching that they are not culpable then what makes anyone think that they are smart enough to understand the nuances of conscience? All they need to hear from a pulpit is a poorly summarized homily on this exhortation to allay any fear of simply ignoring the marriage laws and pronouncing themselves fit to receive the Eucharist. We didn’t think that after Humanae Vitae anyone would live as though contraception were not a sin . . . but then that is exactly what happened. The expectations were not met . . . so the people rejected the text. I know the expectations for those in an irregular union are and I doubt it will have an outcome any better than contraception.
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I’m not sure what it is you think ought to be done here?
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Would have been nice to get an exhortation to the priests and bishops to teach the Catholic faith on Sunday’s. . . all of it, in time. That won’t happen though.
RCIA will become a nightmare trying to explain this and to get folks to see the priest to fix a marriage problem. I don’t know how the priests will react but that is the practical reality by which we will end up judging this whole process; from the inception of the synod to the fruition in this document. Like I say, I can’t comment on the document alone . . . even if I choose to study it. The reason is because of the actual reality of what changes or doesn’t change in our Church. It is far too early to say this whole process was a good thing or a waste of time. In the next few years we should start getting an indication.
So far, no priest told me to turn off my air conditioning since Laudato Si. So for now I run my air conditioning all through the summer and never once think that this causing harm to the poor somewhere in the world. 🙂
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It recognises an important reality – that there is no point telling people what they really know and will ignore. No Catholic can be ignorant of what the church teaches about marriage, communion and divorce. We either attempt to engage with them, as this does, or we tell them to obey rules they are already breaking.
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The reality is that some are culpable and know that they sin and do it anyway and others are not and may or may not change if taught. Sadly their innocence no longer applies. To engage them by telling them that there is a path to follow where you need not obey the rules (which they are breaking already) is rather appealing for obvious reasons.
I saw in one place in the exhortation where it states the impossibility of living celibately for the civilly remarried Catholic who is in a state of adultery. And though the document quotes Pope Saint JPII it stops short in mid-sentence of his admonition that they must live together celibately. Celibacy, even within marriage, can be a gift that deepens rather than weakens one’s love for one another. I guess it is all in the eyes of the beholder and if one does it willingly or unwillingly.
I guess I didn’t see that the teachings and practice were broken and in need of fixing as long as the teaching was taught, practiced as taught and enforced as taught. But that was the rub for me. Too many cooks were messing with the recipe and turned a simple recipe into goulash. We’ll see if this returns any of the savour to the recipe or not.
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It seems to me a good attempt to match theory and practice. I hope it is read and heeded.
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Well you’d know better than me. I’ll just look at the results . . . I think I have a bit of the MO “show me” in my genes.
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Slim says, “It’s hard for priests to talk with their flocks personally if they won’t come to confession, set an appointment for a visit or go to lunch with him etc.” Well, yeah, if they hide in the Rectory and only talk to their parishioners with an appointment.
In my experience, that’s the purpose of coffee hours, all the groups, and informal assemblages, not to mention being out in the community. I doubt either the priest or the rector in “The Quiet Man” had any doubt at all who around town was troubled because they were a part of that community. And I know that I personally won’t bother trying to talk to clergy who seem standoffish, and many do.
Here, for example, I talk more to the Catholic priest, than I do my own minister because he’s become a friend.
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There is always the old-fashioned thing of going round to peoples’ houses and talking to them – always worth a go. Here one of the big complaints is our priest has time for his swimming and his badminton and meditation, but no one has ever known him do a home visit except to the physically ill.
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Yep, that always works. In fact, my dad comes to mind, he didn’t have much use for church, and had work to do, but the one pastor he respected (a lot) was the one that dropped by the house. He never mentioned God, or church as far as I know they talked about woodworking for a couple hours. From that day, dad was much more supportive of my sisters and my involvement, and could even be persuaded on occasion to go to church as well. Funny how that works, sometimes.
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NEO – I don’t know how to respond to comments that are nested anymore as you useed to be able to do this in the reader but it no longer works.
In response to your bit about the priest sitting around the rectory all day just doesn’t fit what I see here . . . nor does the swimming time which may be something that is different in the UK. What I see are older priests that should have retired long ago doing everything they can to run a parish and young ones who are given as many as 3 parishes to attend to. They get the laity to do what they can but if they don’t look after what they are doing and participate in RCIA and such then they are held accountable. Some of these parishes have as many as 6000 souls in their care and no assistant priests or deacons. It is easy to blame things on the priests and I certainly do my share of squawking when it comes to pastoring badly or doing liturgy badly but as far as usage of time, I don’t envy their task. They get by on little sleep and down time in my neck of the woods. Most of them are stretched to the limit.
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The comment about swimming was from me. It reflects what happens where I live. It will differ from place to place, of course.
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I knew that C and is why I mentioned the UK. The other problem I didn’t mention especially in the larger parishes is that fact that many parishioners never even bother to register . . . we are a rather mobile nation and so newbies come and go all the time. So to get an accurate count and the addresses of members is hard if you are in a larger parish. The small ones do better of course.
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Here the problems are more to do with cliquishness I fear.
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Well that sounds pretty sad, indeed. We have that in the blue bloods of New England but I haven’t run into too much of it since I left Boston.
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We’re trying to improve things at diocesan level, and hopefully a new pp in a couple of years will help. The present one is 73 and spent most of his life in a monastery.
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Well you can see why he values his meditation time then. Of course, I feel like Sheen did on taking time for prayer. Something to the effect of; if you don’t take care to grow your own interior life then you won’t be of much use to others.
Do you have many that are asked to continue as pastors past the age of 75?
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No, not many. It looks pretty certain the Abbey will close down the chapel here when he goes.
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How far will you have to travel for Mass if they do that?
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Only about 10 miles.
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Not too bad then.
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No, but I shall miss my morning walk and Rosary.
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Indeed so. You could walk the 10 miles to the new church and say a bunch of them.
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Here as well, especially in the Catholic parish, although we all have it. There there are two cliques who refuse to deal with each other, and neither will deal with the Hispanics, or with the priest, who is Indian (brown from India). it’s a recipe for a dying church, which it is.
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Not meant to be specific here, Slim. That is what the navy calls a leadership challenge, and it’s not solvable with current staffing levels. So something needs to change. There are three answers: 1) more clergy, 2) fewer laity, or 3) more non-clergy assistance (volunteer or paid). Or some combination.
I note that an untenable situation will change, whether we will it to or not. Our task is to manage it for an optimal outcome. I think the best in that spot is 3, but I’m no expert.
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They are staffed to the hilt with volunteers and those that they have the money to pay. But they are still coming up short of time. They have also closed many parishes which has gained a lot of ire from those who now have to travel to other parishes now but that has only made for fewer parishes with many more people than any single pastor can get to know in a meaningful way. The real answer is in attracting more priests to the priesthood. But in this age of ‘let someone else do it’ and an age where children are not raised to look up to or to see their priest as someone of special character, not many want the job. We once had more than we needed and now we have far too few. Let us pray for more laborers for the harvest . . . unless God is telling us that there isn’t much of a harvest to gather in at the moment.
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If the church is truly growing and vibrant (I’m not doubting what you say) the problem will self-solve in time, although you may have to do some non-orthodox things in the meantime. If you’re getting young people, some percentage will opt for the priesthood, and eventually a balance will be found. In the meantime, one would have to figure out other methods that while perhaps unusual, don’t transgress too far from normal to get there. I don’t know your church well enough to be specific, but there are always things to be done, although not always the will to adopt unconventional solutions. If ignored, my number two above will become operative, sadly. What can’t go on, won’t.
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There is no doubt that the sex scandals that rocked the Church have left us poor in candidates to the priesthood. The stigma itself is enough to turn many a hetero away from a true calling. We have trained many more deacons than ever before in the history of the Church and are using them to great benefit. It is, like you say, a matter of time. It will take a few generations to pass without incidents like we’ve had to repair the damage to the image of the priesthood. Then we might start rebuilding numbers as well as quality; as the quality has improved but the numbers are still quite low. Time heals all things.
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In a way it does, but that solution will mostly reduce you laity faster than the clergy replenishes. Deacons are very useful in many ways. One thing that I’ve seen in many churches is antiquated methods of insuring teamwork, computerization can help greatly in that area, as well. Can’t cure everything, but it can let priests and clergy concentrate more of their time where their skill level is needed, without compromises their ability to know what is going on in the parish.
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Well it is amazing how many young men are brought to the priesthood by just 1 saintly priest in their lives. So that is the real solution; saintly men giving guidance to young men with a calling.
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It is, but I suspect saintly men are a shortage item. they surely are in the Lutheran church, here, there are some, but never enough.
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Well we haven’t had too many Padre Pio’s as late, that is for sure. But Pope Saint PII and Pope Emeritus BXVI did help us in many respects. We need to have more of them walking amongst us.
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We need some more too, and we need you too, as well.
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Well we all could do more; praying, suffering, doing. I guess at my age we do repent a lot for all the lost time we spent on superfluous things.
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As do I, not to mention for the stupid stuff I still do, wash, rinse, repeat!
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We should just be happy that we have something to wash and rinse much less repeat.
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🙂
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Again, I don’t know what you’re doing but, I have seen churches sometimes make exceptionally good use of blogs and social media to address some issues as well.
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Most of the younger priests do that as well as anyone. Dwight Longenecker has a successful web presence. But that still doesn’t address the general consensus among the people who are still not quite happy if the son wants to be a priest. More than likely, they will try to talk him out of it. Another reason they do this is because of the smaller contracepted family. They do not want their namesake, if they only have one son, to make the ultimate decision to end that family name.
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Yep, and for that I have no answer, that you will accept. But it’s part of the reason that the Anglicans, and we don’t have the problem as severely.
The scandals hurt (us all actually) but most of the echoes have died down, except of those with those who are actively anti-Christian.
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We hear it most from the activist who have used this as fodder for their agenda: women and homosexual priests. That only ensures that young hetero males will rarely enter the priesthood besides the fact that in the RCC both are an impossibility to be reconciled with the teachings. But as long as they are given encouragement I am sure that the issue will be kept alive and in front of our faces. Just another face of the religious crisis of our times.
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The activists (on both sides) are almost invariably wrong. I don’t necessarily agree with you, nor do I disagree, I just haven’t figured it out yet. I was, of course, referring to married clergy, which is simply a rule, and could be changed. Mind, I’m not agitating for it, but it might help a lot. I don’t judge your church, mine has enough problems to keep me worrying all by itself.
We belong to big strong churches, we should be steadfast enough to our heritage, and our God, to do the right things, and not the wrong, at least mostly.
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I certainly hope so but we cannot presume anything. It seems to me that presumption had much to do with the situation that got us into this mess. “A fine mess you have gotten us into, Ollie,”
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Sure, but if we simply play defense, we’ll find, “we have met the enemy, and they are us”. neither can we continually reinvent the wheel.
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We did, and we were right, they are us. 🙂
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It is so! 🙂
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I must admit that what I have read reads like an apologetic for all sinners. For if it is too difficult for a priest to arrive at culpability of a given sin, think how impossible it is for the sinner himself who has little voices in his head saying it is OK to do this or that or the other. I’m not expecting the confessionals to start filling up with folks with better formed consciences anytime soon. I suppose we are to restrict it to the divorced and remarried but somehow it reads like a principle to be followed for all sin.
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Or rename the exultation: In defensionem est peccator
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Oh come on and lighten up QVO. He’s just having fun stirring things up a bit. You know he likes a messy church as he has told us.
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Well, he’s not going to, and no council is going to depose him. So, get used to it or leave seem to be the two realistic options.
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It seems to be only you and those always prepared to be outraged who are outraged. Perhaps at least you might like to wonder why the rest of us aren’t?
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Your opinion is just that – an opinion. When you become a canonist, when you become a catechist, when you acquire authority to pronounce on Catholic teaching, then it becomes something more. Thus far those who are these things and have that authority do not agree with you. In anyone less fond of their own opinion, that would give cause for pausing and thinking. A bunch of people with keyboards and access to the Internet who have never liked this Pope cry ‘heresy’ and ‘the end of the world is nigh’ – there is precisely no reason to give these opinions the time of day.
The Pope does profess the Catholic faith, and unlike you and me, he’s been a Catholic all his life. It may be that only a few keyboard warriors know what the faith really is – but then again it may be they all suffer from an excess of pride in their own opinions.
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It is your opinion that the Pope is not professing the faith. It seems not to be the view of anyone in the Church with actual authority to make such pronouncements, and last time I looked we were not Protestants and did not follow the line that everyone’s opinion is equally valid.
If you, yourself and your opinion think what you do, frankly, no one much cares, the church has a hierarchy and we are either guided by it or we can take ourselves off. The problem is too many grumblers think they should be in the CDF and write as though they are. Who really cares what keyboard warriors on the Internet think?
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Why do you appear to imagine they don’t. It seems not to have occurred to you that men in senior positions in the Church might actually know more about their faith than you do, and that, knowing that, they cannot agree with your view because you are, in fact, plain wrong?
Actually, the laity did very little in Arian crisis except go along with the semi-Arians, it was Athanasius and few like him to kept to what Nicaea had said.
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As I say, if you think you are better qualified than the whole CDF, the whole college of Cardinals and the Bishops’ conference, I should not be surprised; I should be amazed were that true.
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Makes you wonder why we bother having a CDF, Bishops, cardinals and the Pope when we could have your Lutheran model.
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The Catholic Church is not any form of democracy, and frankly your opinion, like mine, counts only for ourselves. There is a clear hierarchy which exists in the main to pronounce on what is and is not Catholic. If we don’t like that and want some form of congregationalism or presbyterianism, there are churches which run on those bases. I chose to join a church which did not run on those bases – so did you.
When our properly authorised hierarchs agree with you and the keyboard warriors, that will be time to act. Until then we owe a duty of obedience, which, it seems, some find very hard.
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Last time I looked the SSPX was not an authority in the Catholic Church, and I, for one, feel in no position to fraternally correct my Father in God. There are plenty of Bishops who, if they agreed with the SSPX position, would say so.
Did you see Joe Shaw’s view at LMS yesterday? No liberal he, and he can’t see what the fuss is about.
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Cheers – and thanks 🙂
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Ah, that well known source of useless speculation?
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I distrust anonymous outlets which spout mainly bile – but everyone to their own.
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Bile is bile, evil is evil, the two are not the same. I tend to stay away from bilious sites run by people who claim knowledge but never tell you who they are and by what authority they speak.
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We’re all entitled to our opinion – and I find it nasty and bilious. Those with a taste for that will find it suits their taste.
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Don’t be too hasty QVO. If none of us is culpable anymore then he has loosed us from a dreadful burden. So relax and enjoy!
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Never stop having a bit of fun, my friend. Be of good cheer. Now is the hour of mercy that He left us.
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Do let us know by what authority you speak? And what church you join next.
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Best of luck with that – you’ll need it.
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Ah, good morning to you Quiav the Great, trust all is well with you and yours. Id like to bring to your attention a news article in the organ good brother Chalcedon writes for. It says that your fearless leader, The Holy Father, is going to some Scandinavian country to celebrate Martin Luther Day. Im sure His Holiness will want to bake a cake for the occasion. Seeing as how Ill Papa is a Jesuit, im wondering if the Poniff will put a bomb in the cake and leave the party early. Any thoughts on the subject?
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If you have digested the 264 pages, I’m surprised at your conclusions here.
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It is an Exhortation- it exhorts, that’s why it’s called that. If it were an encyclical it would be one.
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I started thinking about this last night and wonder if you have a different understanding.
1. A couple who is in an adulterous 2nd marriage subjectively decides what they should or should not do according to their conscience (whether to receive on their own or go to the Church with their case).
2. If they decide to go to their priest to see if they can receive Holy Communion, then the priest exercises his subjective understanding of the situation as he understands it.
3. Once the priest understands the subjective understanding of the situation, he subjectively decides if he will apply the objective law of the Church or allow them to receive an informal indult to violate the law even though they are still in mortal sin.
4. If the couple is told that they cannot receive Holy Communion there is nothing to stop them from going from priest to priest until they get the answer that they desire.
If that is the reality on the ground that becomes operable in the Church then there is no reason to even have an objective law as you can always get your desired result by either following your unformed or poorly formed conscience or by canvassing the priests until you find one that will grant your wishes.
Were it a matter of civil law and we could go from judge to judge until we found the answer we liked and then bring our case before him we would find that the law was, in effect, useless. I think the same applies here as it makes objective law (all objective law) meaningless.
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That differs not at all from the current position, so I am not sure what point it;s making really 😦
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Not from the standpoint of most parishes and how we deal with annulments. If my wife and her priest decide to continue to enforce the objective law people can try another parish but as it is now in this diocese they will get the same answer. Nothing to stop people from heaping mortal sin upon mortal sin though and self absolving themselves and receiving Communion. And with contraception that happens all the time.
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If people want to do that, they’ll do it – as you say, they do it now.
But consider a case I know. A man who joined the Church in his late fifties. He was unchurched before that. No background in religion at all, and his parents were divorced (a rarity back then) and he entered a marriage, got married in church (C of E) as many did and still do. He thought nothing of it, it was a ceremony in a nice building. That marriage broke up, as did his next one. He remarried in in late 40s to a woman who has been able to bring him the stability his life lacked, partly because of her own Anglican faith. He has always struggled with religion, then, suddenly, felt the call to become a Catholic. He was told he could not communicate and accepted it.
A few years into being a Catholic he began to have a recurrence of his old problems, including alcohol abuse. A new priest came into that parish and did what his predecessor had never done, which was to have a long talk with him about his background, his understanding and the rest of it. He’d already been refused an annulment, which he accepted. The new priest took the view that this fellow was not fully cognisant of what marriage as a sacrament was, and that he was not fully responsible for his situation and decided, as a matter of pastoral care, to admit him to the sacrament. From that day, about fives years ago, to this, the man’s life has been transformed. His view is that he has been healed by the Sacrament, and certainly, his life bears eloquent witness to a brand plucked from the burning. His marriage has healed, he has given up alcohol, and he attends Mass daily.
As things now stand, the priest could have made that ruling himself; as things stood, he couldn’t – but he did. He did not because he is lax or liberal, but because his pastor’s heart and instinct told him this is what this man needed. With others he has done otherwise.
I have a feeling this is the sort of case the Pope has in mind.
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I beats me but your annulment process sounds far different than that which we have in the US. Maybe these conferences that were set up by Paul VI are generating a rather inconsistent process from country to country. I never thought too much of the USCCB as they are rather political and individual bishops don’t have to abide by what they say anyhow.
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The man I mention went through the usual process and was told nothing doing. That was a decision which was taken on the facts of the case.
The PP did what he did because he got to know the man and was sure that what he needed was the exercise of mercy. What he did was, canonically, irregular, but it has turned around the life of a man who was lost. I doubt that when he stands before the Lord, he will be told off for not following the canonical process.
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That will be between him and the Lord as you say. Its above my pay grade. From what you told me I don’t see how there was not enough information for a canon lawyer to annul the first marriage. Once the first one falls so does the next one and repeating marriage vows within the Church would have set all things right. So it seems that the tribunal that he sent his case to didn’t do a very good job. But then, it would seem, there is remedy to that by law appeal or changes to the law rather than subjective remedy by a priest.
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That’s the point. Neither the man nor the priest contested the decision, and on the evidence they had they made the only decision they could. But as Jesus discovered, the law so often does not cover all the circumstances we encounter in our lives. In this case, mercy did. The law was made for man, not man for the law.
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Well that’s my case as well, C. Here, we get to know why the judgement was made and what we need to do to give them the grounds to question the validity of the marriage in question. Often the priest will call the bishop or write a letter giving his opinion on the case as well which can be enough for them to look at the case again. From what I’ve seen mercy is what our tribunals in the US apply as far as the law will allow. But it sounds like the person who did not apply mercy was the priest who just let it lay and did nothng about it.
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The first priest simply accepted the decision, as did the parishioner. Where he got lucky as the new PP, who made a real attempt to understand what had formed the man. None of that could be put on paper – but then as so often in the earthly ministry of Our Lord, paper can encompass only part of the hurts to which human flesh is heir.
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There are injustices that hapen in every court of law and yet we can only try to make it work better. Somehow this seems to be analogous with the Presidential Orders of Obama and the instructions to our border patrol and justices to ignore the law; sort of a papal pardon of sorts. It surely seems to me that there is a legal route that is both blind to privilege and also mostly fair. There will be mistakes but since when did that stop us from being a nation of laws or a religion of laws. It seems to me that we must be in order to be considered a civilization rather than an anarchical group that is not subject to anything other than our own consciences. I’m just having a hard time balancing what is fair against what is a disassembling of what is required to be a member of a group that must balance Divine Law against a total annihilation of Divine Law in an effort to stop a few injustices that might slip through the cracks. Many of our saints were faced with injustices as well but it all came out OK in the end. I wonder if we stop God from giving these people His Grace if an injustice occurs by our human failings.
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I don’t see the parallel. What the rulers of this world do is a matter for Caesar and his lawmakers. A good shepherd knows his sheep and the right path for each. In this case there’s no doubt the priest helped the Lord bring a healing which nothing else could bring. No general rules can apply to every soul, and the best pastors are those who know their sheep and feed them.
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But we never applied the law to anyone without a case trial. Each case deserved to be heard and examined and then adjudicated. I don’t know if the law is lacking or if it needs tweaking or the process needs streamlining but Divine Law is not to be ignored which I think we all can agree to. It has to be applied as best as we can to the case. The case you posed was an obvious failure. Many others were not. If we made law only for the failures in the system we would obvious throw the baby out with the bathwater.
The parallel is obious to me. The folks who want to immigrate legally are still waiting patiently so they can abide by the law of the US and they are being neglected. Those who decide to break the law are being given our full assistance. Isn’t that somewhat similar to how you would feel as you are awaiting your annulment versus a priest who tells another couple to just go ahead and proceed as though they already had one?
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I think Fr Longenecker has it spot on today. No legal process can be perfect, but when we are dealing with the damage from our society, pastors are best placed to know what to do. In the case I was referring to, the tribunal acted on the facts they had. In canon law they were right; but in reality they were not. The PP acted as a good pastor can. Law cannot cover everything.
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Well it will be a struggle to implement in an understandable way I think. Anytime one priest binds to the law and another loosens for the exact same case is a contradiction that will raise a few eyebrows. Especially since now this will be extended to every law we have. Same sex marriages will likely get the same treatment. They will live together in obvious sin and yet be admitted by a priest who is empathetic to their cause to all the sacraments. That will be his act of accompaniment and yet, by law, he is allowing the individuals to commit mortal sin upon mortal sin by the very act itself. It is the end to any meaningful understanding of what Divine Law entails; at least in my mind.
I’m going to struggle with this one as I am sure many others will as well.
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There’s nothing in the document that allows same sex marriage. It seems to me simply to remind us of what the best pastors already know. That’s why the analogy with immigration fails – if they are not US citizens they should only be there as refugees, all are equal. All sinners are not equal, Christ showed mercy, so should those who feed his sheep. Sometimes that means saying that a tribunal got it right, sometimes it means recognising that what is right in Canon law is wrong for the individual.
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I guess we will just have to see how this all works its way through the Church. I would expect, however, that the future synod on gays will get the same treatment. I hope it all works out somehow. I cannot imagine our last 2 popes publishing such a document but then, Pope Francis is his own man and we obliged to prayerfully try to implement his suggestions.
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The document is very clear on homosexuality and reiterates teaching, as, indeed it does or remarriage. All it does is remind us that no legal system is 100% perfect. It also reminds us that we are often dealing with victims of the dictatorship of relativism. All in all, it’s a good document.
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I’ll take your word for it as it really doesn’t have any effect on me whatsoever. I trust that things will work out in the end.
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“So much so that I thought that they should have given me far more to do in the way of penance. ”
So its true. Catholics have to “do” things to get rid of sin.
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No, penance is the way we show we really are sorry. Perhaps you just sin and go ‘hey, no biggie, sorry God’, but those of us who have a developed relationship with God feel him urging us to do things to show we are sorry – like, for example, helping our neighbour more, or feeding the poor or helping the widow and the orphan. You see, real faith bears fruit. Perhaps when you acquire it, you will see that? I pray for you daily.
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No, penance is the way we show we really are sorry.
Interesting. My firdt thought is….god needs to see in your actions or good works that one is sorry? Are ones sins forgiven if one doesn’t “do” penance?
Thanks in advance
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You take a curiously Pharisaical legalist view. God alone knows what is in our heart; God alone has the power to forgive. For us, if we have faith and we are sorry, we actually want to do more than say a few words. Perhaps you have never felt that imperative? James was right though, faith without deeds is a vain thing – but perhaps you don’t like James or agree with him?
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This is the first time ive been called “legalist” Especially from someone who subscribes to a religion that for legal reasons discriminates against gays and divorced people, and Jews and Protestants.
Works follows being born again. Works don’t help salvation along….they follow naturally someone who knows the Lord. The “works” don’t have to be physical works.
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What ‘legal’ reasons would those be Bosco? The Church simply follows the teachings of its founder, that sex takes place in marriage and marriage is between one man and one woman; you may have heard of Jesus Christ and even read what he had to say on such matters.
Who, except you, says works help salvation? You’re an odd fellow, you misrepresent the teaching of the Church then criticise the misrepresentation; the simple answer is don’t misrepresent it in the first place.
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When I was first born again, I was led to others that this had happened to.a LL DIFFERENT WALKS OF LIFE . We would sit there and would realize that we were all doomed, no matter how nice we were or how devote we were in our religion.
Im sorry, but what your religion does to its devotees is no real concern of mine. There are two types of people….the saved and the unsaved. These people caught in religions need to come to Christ as does anyone who is alive and unsaved.
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When you convert to Christianity you stop feeling hopeless because hope has entered your life.
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By the way, your Pontif is mulling over the problem of divorced and gays in your religion. Due to popular opinion, the Holy Father tells his priests to be more inclusive of different lifestyles. Seems the church that Christ founded is trying to backpeddle on its hard line.
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A shame you never read the posts here, I commented on this on Friday. As usual you are late and inaccurate.
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Hahaha. I read what you and Quiav the Great said. Great fun. Loved every minute of it.
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As this is probably too technical for you and not given in a sound bite that you could repeat in conversation, this article shows that nothing has changed in Canon law or in the admission to Holy Communion when submitted to a close analysis. As to what it says to people subjectively who are reading it; it may say something else or even contradict teaching. But objectively, it doesn’t do that.
http://wdtprs.com/blog/2016/04/canonist-ed-peters-notes-on-some-juridical-issues-in-amorislaetitia/
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Holy Communion is to be withheld from divorced-and-remarried Catholics in virtue of Canon 915 which, as has been explained countless times, [NB] does not require Catholic ministers to read the souls of would-be communicants, but rather, directs ministers to withhold holy Communion from those who, as an external and observable matter, “obstinately persevere in manifest grave sin
Good brother Chalcedon called me a legalist.
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This shows your comment about the Church changing was wrong. You might have apologised for your error.
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Its obvious what the CC is doing. The Holy Father says…Lets be nicer to homos and divocees, and the devotees think that their church is being nicer to people. And then in fine print, the traditional catholics are assured that nothing has changed. The happy face is just for public consumption.
A leopard doesn’t change its spots. Men think they are in control of this beast called the Catholic Chruch. But its marching orders come from beyond the reach of mortals. Vaticanus hill was the seat of divination and sorcery , and the spirit is still there.
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We simply follow what Christ said. The world – and you are of it – funds that hard.
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Well, the new and improved(constrained) Bosco wont get into how the CC follows simply what Christ said. You guys simply say…Jesus didn’t mean what he said….or…the scripture doesn’t mean what it says. Then im called ignorant and a bad person for believeing what it says. You’ve got wonderful reasons why you all do what scripture says not to do.
I have no prob not calling men Father or not bowing befor images. I don’t find Jesus words hard. His yoke is easy and his burden is light.
I don’t have to suffer from the legalistic verbiage of the links you guys put up and the unending verbiage that is to come from the magisterium.
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Now, who is it says Jesus didn’t mean what he said to Peter, or about founding a church, or that the bread and wine are his body and blood?
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And he observes that the Eucharist is not a prize for the perfect (thank God), but a powerful spiritual medicine, which it is—unless it is taken unworthily or in violation of law, a caveat one may assume all Catholics, and certainly popes, know without having to say it.
http://wdtprs.com/blog/2016/04/canonist-ed-peters-notes-on-some-juridical-issues-in-amorislaetitia/
Communion in violation of the law. That sends shivers up my spine. I thank god that the catjholic church isn’t the rule of law anymore.
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There was this chap called Paul who wrote in a letter that those who ate and drank the body and blood of the Lord unworthily did so to their damnation. You’ll find it in a book called the Bible.
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That’s between a man and his god, not a tribunal of men in costumes. I would ask you if a religion of works and laws scares you, but I know you love it. That is scary. During the trib, someone has to be the police force that arrests bible belivers and behead them. These people are being trained now for that job. The rapture is any second now.
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Nutjobs have been saying the rapture is coming since the first nutty Protestant misread Scripture- let us all know when you go, won’t you 😏
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When the fig tree puts forth its buds, know that the time is near.
The fig tree is Israel. There was no Israel befor 1948. They didn’t understand because they couldn’t. But even the born again don’t let that bother them. We work while it is yet day. But I want to kick a few of Satans army while im still here. Just remember Bosco told you this;….that the book of Rev will read like the daily news after the rapture. You will ask your costume…”why weren’t we taken/?” Then he will either continue to lie, as he always has done, or he could confess that it was all a show, a hoax, a money making business.
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Odd the way that until fairly recently no one took this view of the rapture. Either, for nearly two thousand years no one understood the Bible properly, or some mad Americans got it wrong – I know which if those two I am going with.
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