What complaints were made by the reformers about the Church of Rome at the time? There were three marks by which Christ’s church could be known: pure and sound doctrine; the sacraments administered according to Christ’s holy institution, and the right use of ecclesiastical discipline. The reformers had no problem with Rome from the point of view of it retaining the essential word, but they took the view that too much of it had become overlain with human traditions of varying sorts. So, baptism and the Lord’s Supper were the essential sacraments, but by what mandate of Christ was it permissible to withhold the cup from the laity? That had not been the practice in the early Church. Neither had the early Church held to the doctrine of transubstantiation, nor had it seen the Mass as a propitiatory sacrifice. There were other things, such as the veneration of statues and the practice of paying money to get out of Purgatory, which also suggested that serious reform was needed. The problem was that Rome would not heed calls to reform, nor appeals to ancient practice; it insisted that its traditions were of God and not to be changed. The English Reformers saw themselves as faced with a choice – either by yoked to a Rome which in their view had departed from the marks of a true church, or separation – so they chose the latter. All that Henry’s marital difficulties did for them was to put the King on their side. Everyone was well aware that if Charles V had not been the uncle of Queen Catherine, and if his troops had not been occupying Rome, Henry would have had his annulment; not for the first, and certainly not for the last time, the needs of Rome’s realpolitik created problems for it – in this instance ones fatal to its influence on England. The quarrel was with the Pope – something reflected in the legislation of 156 which rejected ‘the foreign pretended power and usurped authority of the Bishop of Rome’.
What the reformers wanted to return to a purer model of the Church. The decision that Henry should be head of the church was simple enough. It was hardly a new idea that the monarch should take on a leading role – there had been several rounds of crises in which monarch and Pope had clashed over jurisdiction within their realms. There was no thought that the split would be permanent – there was the hope that Rome would realise that all the complaints and calls for reform were ones it ought to hear – as Bishop Jewell put it, ‘we would be willing to yield to Rome all the honour Irenaeus gave her if she would return to the doctrine and traditions of the Apostles’
Here, despite being an Anglican, I am not taking any sides, simply reporting on what people said at the time, and it is an interesting paradigm, and one not unknown in the wider history of the Church. In 325 at Nicaea, traditionalists had appealed to precedent to repudiate the use of novel terms such a ‘The Trinity’ or words derived from Greek philosophy such as ‘hypostasis’ – the latter line was one heavily argued by the Alexandrian Church at Chalcedon in 451. Tradition was a two-edged sword. No one ever claimed to introducing novelties, the argument always was, as it was with Arius, that one could find whatever idea it was in the Bible. If Jesus was the ‘first-born’ he could not be God – but then, the Athanasians argued, how did that make sense alongside John 1:1-3? At what point, and by what authority did an idea become one which all Christians should accept? How did one deal with rigid hierarchies and the tendency for mankind to go the wrong way? As Trent would show, some of the things the early reformers had wanted were not unreasonable, except by then, what the reformers wanted was far greater, and mutual hostility had ensured that both sides were burning the bridges – and each other.
If we take anything away from such episodes, it might be a warning to ecclesiastical authority to pray and listen more, and to be more open to the idea that some criticisms of it are legitimate. That might even help those arguing for reform to realise that not everything they want is desirable. But perhaps as that might mean us all acting more like members of the Body of Christ and less like warriors fighting each other, it is the hardest thing of all for us to do?
That does seem to be our problem, dearest friend 🙂 xx
We are all too prone to see some reasonably insignificant thing as the last ditch, and mount a desperate battle for it. Likely we all (decidedly including me) need to lighten up, and pray more.
Far better to be on the Lord’s side than to try to force the Lord to be on ours.
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I will certainly defend Catholics who are attempting to practice their faith with love; however, this post becomes the line I will not cross.
First off, there is a clear misrepresentation of what the Church fathers believed in Transubstantiation. Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, and Augustine have clear writings on the subject that indicate the idea, perhaps not the word, was very accepted.
I would note to be mindful, I noticed Dave asked why Catholics have been the target of so many posts– I am beginning to wonder myself when clear doctrine s being targeted when the Church has the evidence.
I wonder is this is because of the past incidents? Be weary that if you poke the bear, he wakes.
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My reading of the church fathers is closer to consubstantiation. In any case, both constitute the “Real Presence”, we just don’t feel the need to explain how it happens. God does what God does.
Catholics get poked simply because they poke, and tend to do it in a supercilious, excluding way. Turnabout is always fair play, and the kitchen does get warm.
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Let me try.
Let’s start off by making sure I am not barking up the wrong tree by offering what I understand your doctrine to be:
1376 The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: “Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation.”
1413 By the consecration the transubstantiation of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ is brought about. Under the consecrated species of bread and wine Christ himself, living and glorious, is present in a true, real, and substantial manner: his Body and his Blood, with his soul and his divinity (cf. Council of Trent: DS 1640; 1651).
Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2nd Ed. (Washington, DC: United States Catholic Conference, 2000), p. 347,356
By that I take the following to be true, namely that you hold that transubstantiation is the “change” that occurs in the “whole substance” of the bread and wine set apart for the Eucharistic mystery – one that takes place at the words of institution or consecration (i.e. “This is My Body,” etc.). Is that right?
For me, as for many others, the question is not whether the Bread and Wine are the body and blood (though we could disagree about whether this occurs at the 2nd epiclesis or earlier), it is whether transubstantiation can be taken to define how this happens. I would hold with St John of Damascus that:
“if thou seekest after the manner how this is, let it suffice thee to be told that it is by the Holy Ghost; in like manner as, by the same Holy Ghost, the Lord formed flesh to himself, and in himself, from the Mother of God; nor know I aught more than this, that the Word of God is true, powerful, and almighty, but its manner of operation unsearchable.” (J. Damasc. Theol. lib. iv. cap. 13, § 7.)
There is no denial of the result, there is disagreement over whether one can, or even needs to be able, to define the ‘how’. It was an unfortunate characteristic of the Schoolmen to think they could define what cannot be defined by man.
That is where, for me, I disagree. I think your church has adopted as dogma something best left the great mystery it is. You might find reading some Orthodox literature on the subject interesting – they do not reject transubstantiation, they simply see no need for it. Nor is there.
At Communion (in both kinds as the ancient church practised it, and in a language to be understood of the people, as in the early church) we received the body and the blood of the Lord. How and why, we leave to the Holy Spirit who knoweth all things.
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It was your church which made a dogma out of the process, not mine. I have no idea whether the the molecular structure of the bread and wine changes, I cannot define the process and it from any such attempt that I demur. The way in which Christ is in the bread and wine is a mystery. It is a shame that medieval Latin schoolmen felt the need to define the mystery- and a greater one that your church alone felt the need to turn it into a dogma, anathematising those who were humble enough to know such things are not to be cut and dried.
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That explodes Dave’s line that there is not attempt to explain the mystery. That is precisely what you are trying to do here – which seems impious and on the high road to modernism where everything has to be explained in terms of some kind of science – even if, in this case, it is Aristotelian physics.
The early Church did not attempt to be so impious as to say x changed by y did not, it said the bread was his body and the wine his blood, and unlike your own church, did not attempt to confine the laity to communion in one kind only.
You are trying to explain how, you say x changes but y does not. The Orthodox are more pious and humble than your schoolmen, and say it is a mystery and we do not attempt to say what happens to the bread and wine – we just know we receive the Lord.
As so often. the Latin Church exceeded what the early church dared say. And you wonder where the roots of modernism lay? Ask rather why the OC has never been troubled by it?
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In saying x changes and y does not, you are explaining something – or you are simply waffling – which is it? I have no opinion on how it is I meet my maker at the Eucharist, I know I do. You are welcome to your opinion, as your church is. It is entirely in character that you bandy about the word heretic. I think you will find that your church can only call RCs heretics. But then, perhaps only your church has this desire to do so, who knows, and frankly, no one not an RC gives a fig.
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Yes that is all you show.
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The poking has been going on from the beginning of the Reformation Philip and it will never cease, my friend. As the post clearly shows, every single item that is presented is defensible and thereby we have tried tirelessly to do so since then. For instance (though they may not have had the texts at the time) the Mass was clearly a sacrifice as seen in the early fathers who called it a sacrifice and also the Didache written shortly after the death of Christ which did the same.
Bishop Jewell seems to think that he and others, simply being the tail of the dog, should wag the dog. It was not up to them to tell the Church what is apostolic and what is not. What he was insisting upon was his version of what was apostolic. Had they believed as the Church already taught, that Christ did not leave the Church orphaned and had given the authority over to the successors of Peter and the Apostles, then they would have had their answer. Rome does not have to undo the work of 1500 years of theology and the many councils that had come before. Were we strip all of the Holy Theology away and begin again as house church? They simply chucked the authority and gave themselves that authority, plain and simple.
Realpolitik is a human problem that occurs in any organization of humans almost from the start but certainly once time passes. So they broke with Rome and are now dealing with their separate realpolitik which now breaks with the apostles far more than Rome did at the time of the Reformation; chucking certain sacraments, a new canonn of scripture for some, SSM, women priestesses and the like. It makes no difference, really, why they rejected the realpolitik of Rome with their populist revolt which was driven by their own preferred brand of realpolitik. They simply substituted the mediate authority given by Christ with their own authority given to themselves under the guise that they were returning to a ‘purer’ ancient form of the faith. Hocus Pocus, we are the church.
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Indeed, and since most lauded Pope Benedict XVI yesterday, let us seek further his wisdom on the authority of Christ and the Church’s doctrine on the Eucharist.
“The Church has understood the words of consecration not simply as a kind of quasi-magical command, but as part of her praying in and with Jesus; as a central part of the praise and thanksgiving through which God’s earthly gift is given to us anew in the form of Jesus’ body and blood, as God’s gift of himself in his Son’s self-emptying love.”
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I know no Orthodox or High Anglican who would disagree. Not a word there about transubstantiation of course.
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I would ask does Father Benedict have to clarify the terminology, couldn’t we assume he is only further validated the stance of The Church? I would certainly assume that since he speaks of what appears to be a specific prayer or instance during a Mass that it would be much the result of Transubstantiation that Dave explained in his new post.
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Not at all, I assume he agrees with his own church’ my point was that in the phrase you quoted, he says nothing anyone of my view would not agree with either 🙂
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For those who need more than my book for Dummies:
http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_ben-xvi_exh_20070222_sacramentum-caritatis.html
. . . or there is this short bit from Bxvi:
To explain this transformation, theology has coined the word “transubstantiation,” word that resounded for the first time in this Basilica during the IV Lateran Council, of which in five years will be the 8th centenary. On that occasion the following expressions were inserted in the profession of faith: “his body and his blood are truly contained in the sacrament of the altar, under the species of bread and wine, because the bread is transubstantiated into the body, and the wine into the blood by divine power” (DS, 802). Therefore, it is essential to stress, in the itineraries of education of children in the faith, of adolescents and of young people, as well as in “centers of listening” to the Word of God, that in the sacrament of the Eucharist Christ is truly, really and substantially present.
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All of which misses my point in style.
It is not what you and I say now which matters or helps us explain what went wrong, or helps put it right. If RCs are going to maintain there was no problem in the church at that time, they have a problem – why did a very large number of contemporary RCs insist there was, and why did they all identify the same things?
It may be that a whole lot of learned theologians brought up as catholics failed to understand what their own church taught – in which case one has to ask whose fault that was? It may equally be the case that they did, and that their reading of the sources was wrong. It may also be that they were right. There’s a whole series of possibilities.
Jewell was not unlike those modern Catholic bishops who listen to what the Pope says and disagree with him and take it upon themselves to say ‘no, this is what tradition says’ – after all, he was initially an RC bishop.
And for me this is what so much RC apologetic fails to address. It is profoundly unhistorical. It starts off by ignoring that all these men did not start off as Protestants, they started as Catholics, and unless the RC begins (as I think men like Benedict XVI does) to understand why they made the criticisms they made, then one simply ends up in defensive positions – not really worked terribly well for any of us I think.
I am not sure where you get the idea that any of these former senior RC clergy wanted to throw away anything in the Creed, or did I misread
You seem to be saying that senior RC clerics, which is what they were, wanted to throw away parts of the Creed – which is how I read the comment about 1500 years. I think it clear from what I wrote that this was not the case, these Catholics wanted to get rid of novelties – they were in many sense profoundly traditionalist. But when Rome refused to budge, they did what many good Catholics have been driven to do – and may perhaps be driven to do again.
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They were not the same as traditionalists, Jess. They usurped the mediate authority given by Christ Himself and applied it to themselves. A traditionalist gives previous defined teachings full obedience. If there are those who weaken or try to dissassemble what was built rather than build upon that edifice then their work will be like straw. It is in that vein that Pope Francis is being criticized along with Kasper and the other German bishops. Introducing novelty or confusion or flatly stating something that denies the teaching authoirity of the Christ’s Church cannot stand. Regardless of how people think the Catholic Church works it is after all not the property of any 1 magisterium or pope. It is Christ’s. As such, the Holy Spirit which guides the definitive teachings is sacrosanct. It is approved from heaven . . . whatsoever you bound on earth etc.
Pope Francis has not as y et defined anything and it is unlikely that he will. Most Popes don’t as it is an awesome responsibility. What he has done is obfuscate the teachings. You don’t see me and other orthodox traditionalists leaving the church to form our own do you?
Here are some very good practical examples of our difficulties with the Pope told from different perspectives. The first is from a newly ordained priest and the others include some high ranking bishops.
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2016/03/guest-op-ed-fighting-for-soul-of-europe.html
http://www.onepeterfive.com/the-german-churchs-opposing-voices/
They have a duty to speak out in my opinion. Nobody has the right to abandon the Church because we have poor leadership at the time. Their time in office is but a blip on the history of the Church. Everyone, including the laity has an obligation to warn against the confusion of, or outright changing of, Church Teaching.
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Perhaps, but then where would Lefebvre fit in here? Who judges what is ‘full obedience to previously defined teaching’? To say it is apporved from Heaven is fine, but the Lord gave authority to Peter and his successors, and did not say what you lot manage to agree among yourselves and can get past a council I approve, neither did he say that what Peter’s successors did was fine as long as it fitted with tradition. So, I don;t disagree with what you say, but think you raise as many questions as you answer with this.
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LeFebvre left the Church didn’t he? It is obvious that between that and his disobedience to JPII that he went into schism. Sad, because his arguments and observations about the loss of faith engendered in his students by the new Mass were sound.
Yes, as God gave Aaron the High Priesthood and the levites a share in the priesthood. It was passed down. Jews understood well that this was what they were to do. Christ did not have to explain to the Apostles that they needed to replace Judas nor that it would be wrong to include Paul as one. It is not stated. So is it mere conjecture that this happens. Did God have a bad model in the OT Church or was it that they did not have the Holy Spirit to ensure that our mistakes and frailties would not end up destroying what God has built?
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I think his followers would say he was pushed out wouldn’t they?
I’d suggest that the OT model was somewhat flawed in a number of directions, hence the new church with the new model of leadership. But happy to be wrong – used to it 🙂
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I don’t think God makes mistakes . . . just us. 🙂
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From your point of view, with the advantage of writing from the C21st, this seems clear, to others, writing from different confessional viewpoints with the same advantage it is still not clear.
As I say in the post, I am looking at what men believed at the time, which as an historian you will know is what we do – we don’t say, ah well, you know, they got it wrong – specially when there are still a lot of Christians, including the entirety of the Orthodox Church which disagrees that this is what the Fathers were describing. The “Real Presence’, which the OC holds, and which parts of my church (including me) hold is not the same as transubstantiation. Of course one can it back into the Fathers, as equally one cannot – were not that the case, there would be only one opinion on the subject – which pretty plainly there isn’t. I don’t know why some RCs here get so jumpy – I’m just a girl with a keyboard 🙂
Nothing is being ‘targeted’, I am simply answering QV’s rather jejune account of the origins of the Anglican reformation by quoting some history.
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I’m never too clear in my mind that ‘this is my body’ cannot be understood as ‘this is like my body’ – seems a natural way to understand it. However the early Vulgate bible has it ‘super-substantial’ bread in the Lord’s prayer, rather than ‘daily bread’, so the early Christians seem to have believed there was something going on with the bread in the Eucharist.
But all this is to overlook the main cause of the reformation in England, and to some extent Scotland. The motivation was the envy of the ruling and lower gentry for the lands and assets of the Church. The Church had through centuries of donations and good management amassed substantial assets that were used for the relief of the poor. All this was taken away from the Church and appropriated through acts of parliament for the benefit of the landed elite, for which they paid nothing. This is the means by which the British aristocracy gained their immense wealth. The protestant writer, William Cobbett, has much to say about this in his book ‘The Reformation’
The likes of Knox and Cranmer were useful idiots, used to give some theological cover for the business of despoiling the assets. In fact idiots is a very kind word for them, if you look at the fruits of their preaching.
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I think that what sells it for me is the discourse on the bread, “for my flesh is true food, and my blood true drink.” To me at this point, Christ isn’t say “like” but is saying “is.”
In regards to The Lord’s pray, Father Benedict gives a great explanation that “daily bread” is meaning full of depth indicating Eucharist, Grace, and Faith.
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To be clear, no one here is claiming we do not meet the Lord’s body and blood at the Eucharistic feast – it is the attempt to explain it in terms of Aristotelian physics and the insistence that if you disagree you are anathema, which is being objected to.
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I will clarify as well; my comment was a result of JohnK’s statement “I’m never too clear in my mind that ‘this is my body’ cannot be understood as ‘this is like my body’”
To me, it seemed as if his statement reflects Luther’s consubstantiation, which is still a theology of real presence; however, claiming a ‘substance’. So I didn’t believe him to be stating merely a reenactment in remembrance.
My explanation is focusing on “is” I would say most of my faith hinges on the sacrament being transformed truly to be the body and blood of Christ.
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I have no ‘theology’ here – He is there, I receive him I don’t have an opinion on bread and wine, elements or substance – thats my point – it’s a deep mystery.
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From what you’ve said to me and Q, I would interpret it as that you simply have faith as a Child that Christ is there. However, transubstantiation claims that it is Christ’s body, which he would be there, but you favor consubstantiation that it’s “like” the body.
It seems, from these comments, that you’re not rejecting per say, rather that you’re (for the lack of a better term) ‘agnostic’ to transubstantiation.”
I could be totally off base, but it gives you an opportunity to explain your faith.
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A figure of speech – I find Him in the Eucharistic feast – I have no idea what happens to bread and wine in terms of modern molecular biology or of Aristotelian metaphysics, nor have I need of one.
Yes, I would be fine with the RC version if they were not so arrogant as to anathematise those who find it unnecessary.
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You will, I think, find that the notions of substance and elements are Aristotelian in origin.
For my part, I have no idea how it is I encounter my Lord at the Eucharistic feast, it is enough for me to know I do. Those who have pet theories about exactly what happens to the bread and wine are welcome to them. Those who anathematise others for not sharing their pet theory are sad little men with an insufficient appreciation of what the word mystery means.
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Well, I would caution not to pigeon hole all Catholics into pokers.
The quote, I’ll reference, reads as Transubstantiation and I can certainly quote all the way to Thomas Aquinas of two differing ideas about the Eucharist that reside with two monks who differ on the subject in the 11th century. I’m afraid that claiming there is no evidence is either not knowing or a willingly misrepresentation of the evidence.
To knowingly bare false witness isn’t fair play, let’s be honest, couldn’t Q or Bosco simply make Kitchen heat references when people become upset?
Theodore of Mopsuestia
“When [Christ] gave the bread he did not say, ‘This is the symbol of my body,’ but, ‘This is my body.’ In the same way, when he gave the cup of his blood he did not say, ‘This is the symbol of my blood,’ but, ‘This is my blood’; for he wanted us to look upon the [Eucharistic elements] after their reception of grace and the coming of the Holy Spirit not according to their nature, but receive them as they are, the body and blood of our Lord. We ought . . . not regard [the elements] merely as bread and cup, but as the body and blood of the Lord, into which they were transformed by the descent of the Holy Spirit” (Catechetical Homilies 5:1 [A.D. 405]).
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Yes, and that is exactly what I, as a Lutheran, and Jess, for that matter, believe. We just don’t need the quasi-legal explanation of how it all works.
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Apparently you and I are now in full communion – which pleases me.
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That is my understanding, it was a bit questionable before, but clear now. And yes, it pleases me greatly. 🙂 xx
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Me too. I have unexpected access to a computer and some time – its what happens when you go into someone else’s work and they get called way 🙂
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Yay! for them getting called away, but hopefully not for too long! 🙂
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Apparently some website design isn’t working properly!
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Good they know who to call, then!
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Problem seems fixed – good for them, bad for my time here – now off to find lunch – is there such a thing as ‘linner’, on the model of brunch?
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Not that I know of, but I’ve gone for lunch as late as 5 o’clock several times, so eat, girl! 🙂 xx
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That would be the same Theodore who got condemned at the 5th ecumenical council? I do hate those Catholic floilegia that often get quoted – the word ‘elements’ is added by editors. I have not seen Theodore’s actual text, neither is there a copy I can find on line, but I would strongly doubt he uses the word ‘elements’, as that was not a staple of Antiochene theological discourse. I’m sorry to say this seems an example of an RC source doctoring the fathers to put in what they think ought to have been there. I’d be happy to be shown I am wrong. The Orthodox, who do not cite it with that word, take this as an example of what they call ‘The Real Presence’.
You ask why sometimes non-RCs get cross, this is one of the reasons -we are here dealing with precise theological terms, and to casually throw in the key (from the Latin pov) word ‘elements’ as though it were there in the original, seems at best careless and at worst an attempt to mislead.
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That I didn’t know, but then you know much more of the OC than I do. Thanks.
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Yes, but you’re ignoring two points, number 1, the claim that the ideas didn’t exist that was made by the post is refuted by the document, secondly, because this is all that is needed it doesn’t matter about condemnation. All is needed is show a budding conversation.
Again, your issues are strawman points with hints of ad hominem due to “added” points that have no bearing on my assertion.
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Ah, well that depends what you mean by ‘the ideas’, doesn’t it? No one is claiming, not here at least, that the Real Presence is not what Christ meant. It is the use of the word ‘elements’ and the idea of transubstantiation which are at issue.
You did not, I note, deal with the entirely non ad hom point about the interpolation in that Theodorian text – I really doubt it is there. Do you not agree that adding it creates the wrong impression?
No straw man, a simple question which, perhaps wisely, you seem to wish to avoid.
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To answer your question does adding the Theodorian text create the wrong impression due to his legacy, it’s possible. However, my intentions, as stated, were to simply cite where there seems to be two differing ideas from the early stage. Does this perhaps deserve better clarification, absolutely, you’re correct on that part. I was thinking with a historian mind rather than a theological.
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Thank you for such a polite and interesting response 🙂
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I had sometime during my travels to reflect on the answer. Sometimes, it would seem that our answers suffer from their haste, but can ever more clarity with slow and more methodical process to arrive to them.
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This is the text I can find here:
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/theodore_of_mopsuestia_lordsprayer_01_intro.htm
‘Then the deacon shouts: “Let us all stand up in great fear,” at the end of which the priest begins the Epiclesis in which he prays that the Holy Spirit may come down and change the bread and wine which are on the altar into the body and blood of Christ. He prays also that the grace of the Holy Spirit may come down on all those present and on all those “of whom, by regulation, mention is to be made always in the Church.” He recites these prayers quietly, and after that he takes the holy bread with his hand and looks towards heaven, offers a prayer of thanksgiving and breaks the bread. While breaking it he prays for the people and says: “May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with all of you,” to which the people respond, “And with your spirit.” He then makes the sign of the Cross with the bread over the blood, and with the blood over the bread, and breaks the bread and joins it with the blood.’
I don’t, at this stage, want to get into arguments about the second epiclesis, which I think the Latin Mass dropped, but I see neither in this liturgical form or the words, anything more than the doctrine of the Real Presence. Of course, if one thinks the second epiclesis important, other issues arise about tradition!
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I wouldn’t say that the Orthodox disagree with transubstantiation, at least not at a fundamental level, but we’ve never seen a good reason to dogmatically rule on it. And, of course, different folks mean different things by transubstantiation, but if you mean that transubstantiation does not refer to the change itself, for none can understand how the change takes place, but that it is a reference to our Lord being truly, really, and substantially present, then we got agreement without question.
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Pingback: Orthodox Church and transubstantiation | Agnostic Christianity
Sorry, but you are plain wrong about Anglicanism and Transubstantiation. Were you not aware of Article XVIII of the XXIX? It reads:
The Supper of the Lord is not only a sign of the love that Christians ought to have among themselves one to another; but rather it is a Sacrament of our Redemption by Christ’s death: insomuch that to such as rightly, worthily, and with faith, receive the same, the Bread which we break is a partaking of the Body of Christ; and likewise the Cup of Blessing is a partaking of the Blood of Christ.
Transubstantiation (or the change of the substance of Bread and Wine) in the Supper of the Lord, cannot be proved by Holy Writ; but is repugnant to the plain words of Scripture, overthroweth the nature of a Sacrament, and hath given occasion to many superstitions.
Call me a literalist, but surely looks like a condemnation.
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And from Martin Luther:
“For me it is enough to know that the Word which I hear and the body which I receive are truly the Word and the body of my Lord and God.”
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Pingback: 39 Articles in regard to transubstantiation | Agnostic Christianity
Jess, I will have to continue later, I am going to meet and start the process for adoption with my wife. I ask for prayers.
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How wonderful! You certainly have mine!
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Good for you both, Philip. I pray you are blessed with success.
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Prayers willingly and gladly offered – by the bucket load – I really, really hope it goes right for you both. I’d like nothing more than a child, and I think adoption will be the only way I will ever know the joy of mothterhood -so full sympathy and empathy 🙂 xx
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Thank you!
I would imagine you to be a great mother. I hope you have the joy, my wife also has reasons, but I know truly she was born to be a mother.
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That is such a sweet thing to say; I do appreciate it. I hope that everything goes well for you both – I can so sympathise with your wife.
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Done. Godspeed.
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And off topic but, I simply love the new profile picture! 🙂 xx
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Yes, this one os one I really like – for now 🙂 xx
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But, of course! 🙂 xx
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Ah, yes, it is very lovely.
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How very gentlemanlike of you; I am flattered in the nicest way. There have been a lot of upheavals in my life recently, and this is a new picture designed to place me as I am now 🙂 xx
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Well, you are aesthetically pleasing, so…you’re welcome. 🙂
I’ve heard that. I’ll pray for you.
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Also, I think you’ll find this article interesting given the direction of the last few blog posts.
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The men in the above pics, they were either killed by the Catholic Church or oppressed in some mighty way and lived. The church that Christ founded. These men spoke out about the evils of this false cult. They didn’t even spell out all the evils, seeing as how they were also cathols. But the church that Christ founded wanted to kill them, and in most cases did.
Hey, id like to join a religion and get rite with god. Lets go religion shopping. Oh heres the CC. lets examine it. Oh, it instituted the inquisition, it burned any who opposed its selling of heaven. They bow down to graven images. ………That’s the religion for me……sign me up.
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What complaints were made by the reformers about the Church of Rome at the time?
The same complaints as now. Good brother Bertones luxury life is funded from childrens hospital money.Its all about money and luxury lifestyles. Everyone else can eat cake.
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