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There are too many Marys in the Bible, although of course, not one of them was called Mary in real life – that is our translation of the Hebrew Miryam, Maria or Miriam – one of the most common names given to girls in the Holy Land. It is so common that, ironically, it has led to some confusion. In my meditations for Holy Week here, done on the Ignatian model, I have had to make some choices as to which Mary was which. This is ironic because St Mark (14:3-9) has Jesus tell us that whenever the story of the anointing of his feet was told, people would remember Mary who did it; it tells us something that the Church has not remembered this and, for a long time, and even now, there is some confusion.
It was Pope Gregory the Great who, if he did not begin the confusion (we can see as early as Ephrem the Syrian that Mary Magdalene was being conflated with Mary the sinner at Bethany), consolidated it, in 591 when he identified Mary of Magdala with Mary of Bethany in a sermon:
She whom Luke calls the sinful woman, whom John calls Mary, we believe to be the Mary from whom seven devils were ejected according to Mark. And what did these seven devils signify, if not all the vices?
That set the poor Magdalene’s fate until modern times. Despite there being no Biblical evidence she was a fallen women, she became one posthumously. As one scholar has put it, Mary, a powerful woman who helped support the ministry of Jesus became:
the redeemed whore and Christianity’s model of repentance, a manageable, controllable figure, and effective weapon and instrument of propaganda against her own sex.
The Orthodox Church, like some Western monastic orders, never accepted the ‘composite Mary’, and continued to identify Mary of Bethany as being separate from Mary Magdalene, and that is the tradition I have preferred for my meditations, although, with the latter, my meditation cannot free itself entirely from 1500 years of identification of her with fallen women. In 1969 the Roman Catholic Church caught up, making it clear the two women were not the same.
Jesus wanted us to remember the name of the woman who anointed his feet, and we have forgotten her – which some women think reflects the attitude of the patriarchal societies in which the Bible was written – women were of lesser importance than men, as we can see from the horrid story in Judges 19 of the Levite’s concubine, and the way Suzannah was treated.
We can, of course, identify Mary, the mother of Jesus, and if we accept the separate identification of Mary Magdalen, her too, but who were the others at the foot of the Cross? I have written before about this, so won’t repeat what I said then, but for those interested, the posts are here and here. Mary of Clopas seems to have been the sister of the Virgin Mary, but is, of course, identified for us only by reference to her husband. She stood with her sister in solidarity, and it may well be that Salome was another sister. It gives us some idea of how close to Jesus the Magdalen was that she was allowed to stand there with the mother of the Lord and her sisters.
None of that, of course, should be taken as giving the slightest credence to the Dan Brown like stories, although they are based on ancient and non canonical texts. Brown, and others, have an agenda which, to my mind they push too far. But where they do have a point, is that we have not done what the Lord wanted, we have not remembered these women aright. Modern scholarship sometimes gets a bad name, but here, in disambiguating the plethora of Marys, it has done us all a favour.
My final meditation will be tomorrow, and again, has the Magdalene as its subject. Thank you to everyone who has liked the posts – it is very encouraging. A happy and joyous feast of the Resurrection for tomorrow to all our readers.
Good sister, Roman guards were at the foot of the cross. Everyone else kept a safe distance. Not that it is super important. Its just that one little inaccuracy can lead to another, and befor you know it you’ve got volumes of fables.
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Just going with St John 19 here which reads:
25…But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother,
and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.
26 When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near,
he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!”
27 Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!”
And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.
They were close enough to speak to him and hear his words. So I don’t think there’s any inaccuracy there is there?
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No prob. They were close enough to talk. But as the picture you have afforded us depicts an error. Soldiers were at the foot of the cross, not the followers. Does it affect salvation? Ill say no.Do the fables that spring from inaccuracies affect salvation? Ill say yes.
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If the followers were not at the foot of the Cross, how could they hear what was being said and speak to Jesus – I’m a bit puzzled here?
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The gospels are not clear on whether the guard was a Roman guard or if it was the Jewish temple guard at the tomb. The priest went to Pilate requesting a guard be put on the tomb. He replied you have a guard so they could see to it. This phrase ‘You have a guard’ could be taken either way.
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Interesting. Do you think jewish guards would have pierced Jesus with a sword? Especially with Jesus mom and followers standing there?
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The alternate views about the guard do not refer to the crucifixion but the guard at the tomb after the crucifixion. The account in Matthew is supported as historical fact as non-Biblical Jewish sources also claim that the disciples stole the body. In so doing they confirm that the tomb was empty.
Only Matthew provides the account of the guard at the tomb of Jesus. In which the chief priests and Pharisees ask Pilate for a guard to secure the tomb to prevent the disciples from stealing the body and faking Jesus prediction of rising on the third day. Pilate tells them, “You have a guard; make it as secure as you can.” It is not clear if this means that Pilate gave them a Roman guard or told them to use their own temple guard.
“The next day, the one after Preparation Day, the chief priests and the Pharisees went to Pilate. Sir, we remember that when He was still alive that deceiver said, ‘After three days I am to rise again.’ Therefore, give orders for the grave to be made secure until the third day, otherwise his disciples may come and steak Him away and say to the people, ‘He has risen from the dead,’ and the last deception will be worse than the first.” Pilate said to them, “You have a guard; go, make it as secure as you know how.” Matthew 27:63-65
Bosco how do you interpret Pilate’s words.
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Pilate agrees to give them a guard. “You have a guard” Sames as…Here is a guard. Now, a guard wasn’t one lonely soldier. It was a company of 12, as I understand it.
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“:11 While the women were on their way, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the chief priests everything that had happened.12 When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, 13 telling them, “You are to say, ‘His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.’ 14 If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble.” 15 So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day.” Matthew 28:11-15
Bosco if it was a Roman guard can you answer the following questions?
1) Why did the guard report to the chief priest and not to Pilate?
2) Why did they take a bribe from the priests to lie saying they had slept on duty? As this could be punished by death for a Roman guard.
3) How could the priest settle things if the governor got to hear of it if the priest were not representing his own temple guard?
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Pilate said unto them, Ye have a watch: go your way, make it as sure as ye can.
66 So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch
Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
This says a centurion was watching Jesus, and those with the centurion. Centurions were roman captians, if you will. so, the guards weren’t jewish guards.
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The quote you give from the centurion was spoken at the foot of the cross. There is no evidence that the same guard is in view at the tomb the following 2 days. The guard set at the tomb was requested by the priests the day after the crucifixion. The centurion you quote would have long left the crucifixion site and gone of duty.
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King James Version (KJV)
They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink
These are the ones at the foot of the cross. Then, one roman got the big idea to stab him with his spear. So, the catholic version of Mary standing at the foot of the cross smiling and waving is false. To illustrate one of the fables that proceed from this false picture….Mariology says that Mary ALLOWED Jesus to be crucified. Another person in here,i wont mention his name, said Mary shed her blood for the redemption of mankind. This is how inaccuracies affect salvation.
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I think you may be coming from a strange place here Bosco. The Orthodox Church share the same view that the only way to make sense of what we read is to assume that Mary and the women were also at the foot of the Cross – otherwise they couldn’t have heard – as there were three crosses, there was plenty of room there.
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You know what….I wasn’t there. The followers very well could have been shoulder to shoulder with the guards.
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Could well have been, I’m simply going with the text and no other presuppositions 🙂 xx
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Who is weaving fables here, Bosco? “Smiling and waving” comes from what source exactly?
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It comes from many pictures ive seen of some female standing at the cross. These are catholic images. One I saw had these light rays coming out of the hands of this female. If you go to my historic site…cherrybombcoutour.blogspot.com and scroll all the way to the bottom, you will see a pic where this female has replaced Jesus on the cross. I don’t need to post those here because everyone has seen them.
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Where is the “smiling and waving” part Bosco?
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I kind of embellished the smiling and waving
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Now Bosco, dearest, do you think an innocent young lady should be visiting your site?
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Why? Do you know any innocent young ladies?
It was meant for good brother Zek. Im aware that you have been spooked off of my spooky site.
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Bless you – it’s just that after what others have said … 🙂 xx
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The “others” are just mad because its real pictures of their holymen. (;-D They don’t like what they see.
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Simply a beautiful work of art chosen to illustrate your post, Jessica. The reds, golds, and the woman embracing the cross speak in a deeply spiritual and symbolic way without the need for words. Thank you for finding and posting it.
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A beautiful expose on crucifixion by good sister Jess.
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Thank you, dearest Bosco 🙂 xx
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So glad you liked it and appreciated the post 🙂 xx
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Jess, what could have possibly possessed you to read and take seriously something written by James Carroll?
Never mind. I guess its a feminist thing. 🙂
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Which bit was wrong, dear friend? Was he wrong about Pope Gregory conflating the two identities?
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Confusion of the Mary’s is not unknown. And it is not impossible that Pope Gregory was right . . . it is as good an hypothesis as any other.
Where should I start on the worth of reading such writers, dear friend? The man is at best a crackpot . . . just type his name into Fr. Z’s blog for an analysis of things he’s written for the Fishwrap and elsewhere.
He seems to think that: Scripture is not inerrant nor is it inspired by the Holy Spirit; the Church is not inerrant in matters of faith and morals; St. Paul is wrong about celibacy being the better way in life; everything in the Church is simply misogynistic having been invented by old celibate men . . . I could go on, but I won’t.
This from a failed priest, educated at Georgetown (which was and is Catholic in name only) by modernists. He makes a living by sowing seeds of doubt and distrust into the Christian and especially the Catholic Christian faith as seen in his many articles in the National Catholic Reporter (aka: Fishwrap). From doubt, I do wonder when he just plainly states that he no longer believes in any of this c**p. I doubt he is still a Christian except in name only. I’m sure the nuns on the bus find him very edifying though. 🙂
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But as my piece says, in 1969 your own church recognised there had been a confusion; it’s an easy one to make, and surely it is good that your church has had the courage to say it was made; I don’t see any need for defensiveness on this.
I didn’t know anything about Carroll, but I can’t see much in that piece which is wrong.
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Some of the criticisms I have made of the man’s beliefs (or disbelief) was quite apparent in the article. I cannot imagine that you did not see the glaring opposition to Christian thought on the gospels etc. He even seems to equate the gnostic writings as equally valid as those accepted as canonical writings.
Ask C about him and see what he might have to say on the writer. To me he has about the same credibility as former Catholic priest Donald Cozens who thinks that dogs ate the body of Jesus.
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I agree that some of the things he said seem a bit far-fetched, but on the issue here, I thought it was pretty sound.
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I think he writes faction. He uses facts as Dan Brown does to push forward a hypothesis of his own. Only Dan Brown does it for the sake of entertainment and James Carroll does it for the sake of anti-Catholic agendas which he is fond of: in this case, the making of women priests. 🙂
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I’m sure that’s so, but on this issue he makes a point other scholars have made, so I don’t see the need to be so defensive. Pope Gregory got it wrong, it happens, he was hardly pronouncing infallibly. I find it deeply ironic that despite what Jesus said about her name being remembered, we’ve not managed to do that correctly.
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I don’t know who the ‘we’ is Jess. According to Carroll it is all of Catholicism to this very day. I was not taught that we know definitively who each of the Mary’s were and I doubt others were either. For crying out loud, most folks don’t even know what the Immaculate Conception is or that fornication outside of marriage is a sin. Most folk are ignorant about their faith, let’s face it. As to those who do know their faith, the confusion of the Mary’s has been written about forever.
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I thought that the link I gave to what your church said back in 1969 showed that no one now officially held that view – is that not what the link means?
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As far as I can tell it means that Mary Magdalen and Mary, the sister of Martha get distinct feast days. The reading or mixing of other stories of Mary will not be read (presummably because there is no way to tell via Scripture if they are one in the same or not). Mary Magdalene and Mary the sister of Martha are distinct individuals . . . no more information than that can be read into the 1969 change that I am aware. Just like when St. Christopher was removed from the Calendar. It does not mean he didn’t exist but there is sufficient doubt and a lack of evidence which prohibits him from being on the calendar. I just don’t read too much between the lines as many do. Much of Scripture is not definitively taught to us as something which we must interpret a certain way. Some is and that I hold as truth. What isn’t is open to speculation which Gregory did. That the Church is no willing to go out on a limb because of lack of evidence does not mean he is right or wrong . . . only speculating privately.
Does that make sense? 🙂
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What it clearly means is that the Church no longer accepts what Pope Gregory said, surely, which is that they were one person? I don’t understand how you can think that having two separate feast days and treating them as two separate people can mean anything other than that the Pope got it wrong? Why is this such a big problem?
Happy Easter!
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Happy Easter to you as well Jess.
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For the sake of good brother Zek I did a new post on my posthumous site….cherrybombcoutour.blogspot.com…and put a few pics of a female at the cross. I assume the female is supposed to represent Mary, the mother. As good sister Jess notes, theres an army of Marys at the cross.
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No need, Bosco. I am not interested.
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This was the first Easter since Pope Francis decreed in January that priests can include women in the foot-washing ritual, one of the most moving rites of the holiest week on the church’s calendar. The change had already happened in some churches, but since Francis made it official, it is now spreading worldwide.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/03/26/the-catholic-church-puts-one-foot-forward-on-the-path-to-including-women/
Hey good sister Jess, and any other females reading this, finally, females can get their feet washed on easter holiday. You must feel so privileged. How generous of the Catholic Church to include women. I wonder what brought on this spasm of humanity?
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Why would I even try, but I will. “This spasm of humanity”as you put it, now includes anyone, Christians, non-believers, even muslims, and anyone who Pope Francis needs to love him.
As Fr. Z so aptly pointed out: “What the Lord did at the Last Supper was wash the feet of His Apostles. Not just any of His disciples. Not everyone in the street. What He did, He did for the sake of apostolic ministry.
catholic feminists have always wanted hierarchs to include women in the foot washing, but they understood – if not by reason, by emotion – that the Lord’s gesture was about apostolic ministry and therefore priesthood. They wanted to be included because they want women to be priests.
Then comes Francis.
For decades catholic feminists have been pushing for women to be included in the foot washing rite, because they wanted women to be ordained. Little did they think that Francis would reason, “Well, if women, why not non-Christians?”
Francis blows the connection of apostolic ministry and foot washing out the window.
For Francis, washing feet is a gesture of kindness to everyone. It is not about apostolic ministry, it is about religious tolerance, welcome, mercy, [fill in a natural virtue]. It isn’t connected to the Faith. If non-Christians are included, then this isn’t an exclusively Christian deal.
And it certainly isn’t about ordination … of anybody.”
Full Fr. Z article: http://wdtprs.com/blog/2016/03/why-arent-feminists-angry-at-francis-for-his-foot-washing-changes
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Good reply.Thanks for the insight.
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I had a priest once who was way ahead of his time. He changed the foot washing rite into a hand washing rite; where we washed each other’s hands . . . all genders included.
My wife thinks that we ought to now just join fully in the rite that the whole world would understand. We should simply change it to the back scratching ceremony: I’ll scratch your back if you’ll scratch mine.
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I’m not really getting this. By the same token that the Lord only washed the feet of his disciples, he only washed the feet of Jewish men – surely if you are a real traditionalist, you should be arguing for that? 🙂 xx
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It is the tearing apart of the symbolism from its original meaning: the service of the bishops to Christ and one another. It was part of their consecration as bishops. It wasn’t just the disciples it was the specifically chosen 12 apostles feet that He washed.
Now that they have turned this into something that means, whatever nice things one wants it to mean, to be done to whomever, it loses all of its meaning. It is not about consecration, not about Christianity, it about treating everyone with love. It was never seen as such a rite, ever; until now, of course. I like the back scratching thing though. I think my wife is on the cutting edge. 🙂 xx
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But surely that is the symbolism that came to be applied to it – Christ said that those who wished to be first in his kingdom should be last, and that they should serve, so what the Pope is saying is not out of line with what Christ said. It’s just a different way of looking at it, and one which makes more sense to most people – after all, I’ve never seen my parish priest or any other, wash the feet of 12 bishops! Have you?
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No. But that is how it began. The Pope would wash the feet of 12 bishops, then the 13 of them would wash the feet of 13 men. Later, for brevity, our priests usually washed one or two altar boys feet (those who are the future bishops of the Church).
You hit the point squarely. You and others can pick whatever you want from scripture and apply it to the rite of washing; and you do. My old priest (laicized now, of course) who did the hand washing, believed that the washing of feet was merely a sign of hospitality. He explained that today when offer guests our restrooms to freshen up as a sign of hospitality; so they can wash their hands and neaten up.
Some Catholic feminists who want to be priestesses wanted to be included because they thought that if this could be done that we might see this as a first step toward that goal.
Other women and genders untold see it as a rite of equality.
Muslims see the Pope’s actions as a surrender of Christianity to Islam. Especially in the smooching of the feet; an ancient sign of the conquered.
We can make it mean whatever is meaningful to us individually which means that it has no real meaning at all anymore.
Were I a priest today, I would simply choose not to include this rite on Holy Thursday. It has become meaningless, banal, emotional, political and sexual (I’ll best some older fellows look forward to fondling and kissing the feet of *fill in the blank*).
This is so typical of what has happened to sybolism since VII. It is like playing Pick Up Sticks with sybology. You keep removing them one by one until the tower comes tumbling down.
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I’m sure that is the RC custom, but the RC is not the only Church dating back to Apostolic times, and others see it in other ways, which seem equally valid interpretations.
In the Orthodox Church here, I’m told that the washing of the feet signifies Christ’s intense love and the giving of Himself to each person according to that person’s ability to receive Him (John 13:6-9).
We see what the practice of the Primitive Church was briefly in 1 Timothy 5-9-10:
9 Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man.
10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints’ feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.
There are many forms this has taken across the centuries, and if your own Pope changes direction, then surely it isn’t a matter of life or death whose feet get washed?
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Well however you want to sybolize the act, the feet of Christian men were washed and women were excluded . . . as we saw a direct correspondence to intitution of Bishops and the prepration of these Bishops to carry on the work of Christ in offering up the Holy Sacrifice for the people, feeding His lambs, and serving their members, Christ and one another.
I didn’t say it was a matter of life or death (a pretty elevated bit of hyperbole) . . . though it is certain that what had been seen in a religious context is now viewed through the prism of social justice and it no loger pertains to simply Christians, ordination and becoming the servants of the servants of Christ . . . the servants Christ chose to feed his lambs.
What I see as a dumbing down you see as a step forward though it is now divested of its actual connection to the Last Supper and His command to do this in commemoration of Me.
It is not too bad if were not the lowering of our esteem of those who were set apart by Christ Himself. It is made ordinary and whether one sees it any light they care to see it seems to rob the rite of anything more than an act of social justice. Humility and obedience is now but a show of false humility; done for political expressions to garner esteem for their symbolic act of subservience; the servant of the servant though separated from the instillation of the Eucharist and those who were being prepared to be able to do has Christ commanded them.
You and many others applaud this change and it fits nicely with modern ideas of social justice, equality, ecumenism et al. But it is, by its separation of the whole of Last Supper, become a stand alone symbol that folks can interpret any way that they want . . . and they do.
Not important at all, since it may be omitted. If forced to do this, then that is a horse of a different stripe. Practice and belief do support one another and in this case practice teh Pope has created a change and disconnect that has nothing to do with liturgy per se. He can do this and has done it. People love it. I’m not so sure that it will not continue to morph as time goes on. It is always sad for me and other Catholics to see traditions get discarded like they are worn out and no longer useful. And of course they won’t be if we don’t teach the connections these have with the reality of what was taking place when instituted.
I’d rather see it ommitted entirely than to be used by activists of every stripe as a ego boost for their pet ideological beliefs and agendas.
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How do we lower the esteem by having the bishops and those set apart serve the humblest in our society? This is what I don;t get. Nowhere does Jesus say, or even get close to saying, that those who are close to him are in any way set apart from the rest of us. When Simon the leper implies that if Jesus really was a prophet he’d not let that woman wash and anoint his feet, he doesn’t say ‘good thinking Pharisee, what was I doing there?’ This setting apart is, surely, of men and of prestige and power – and what has any of that to do with Christ?
What is ‘false’ about a Pope washing the feet of the poor? Are you a judge of what is in his heart?
I’m not sure what what you mean by social justice, but I simply see Christ saying that in his kingdom the first should be last – where does he say that in his kingdom his followers will be set apart and treated differently from the hoi polloi?
It really seems to me you are putting the most negative construction you can on this, and I am unsure why? Where on earth does Jesus talk about the purity of the liturgy? His comments about those who worry about the width of their phylacteries suggests he took a very dim view of such attitudes. surely?
The simple fact is other churches have always taken a different view, and in adapting to it, Pope Francis is not being ‘ecumenical’ he is being Christ like. I am reminded of the Samaritan woman’s surprise Jesus spoke to her. Should we not be imitating that attitude of the Lord’s?
You attribute a great deal of motive to others, but I doubt the Orthodox have done it that way to advance female ordination. It’s been interpreted in a variety of ways across two thousand years.
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It doesn’t lower their esteem. It never did. I set others apart for special service; that is not a lowering of esteem.
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From Scripture:
Aaron was set apart to consecrate the most holy things, so that he and his sons forever should make offerings before the Lord, and minister to him and pronounce blessings in his name forever;
Then I set apart twelve of the leading priests:
Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,
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It is how we speak of the ordained ministers of our faith: the priests. The Church understood this from the beginning. They were treated differently and it is clear in Acts. That people just want them to be another Joe Sixpack today is part of the problem. Our priests seem to have no more responsibility or ministerial grace than anyone else: yet it is they who consecrate the Eucharist and forgive sins in Confession; something even the Angels and Mary cannot do. Please don’t usher in the phylacteries and boloney the non-believers of valid priesthoods do. You ought to have learned something from C over these many years.
Your view of the Pope changing the symbolism and muddying the difference between the ordained and non-ordained, the Christians and the non-Christians, may be ecumenical if you think that but it is not helpful for the Church or its priesthood.
It is no about speaking to a ‘Samaritan woman’ though people would make it about that. Everything must be equal and everybody must recieve exactly the same.
What our separated brothers and sisters in the Orthodox Church do is of no consequence to me. We are separated as we are with Protestants. Should I be held to a new standard by the way some Protestants reject Holy Communion or in some instances Baptism itself? Of course not. Why should I care how these people interpret things who have left the bosom of Holy Mother Church? I would expect them to slowly rid themselves of all the beliefs of their Mother Church in time. That is what happens. I don’t expect our Pope to pander to them however and celebrate the Reformation as if that were a good to be celebrated. Such things bother me as they should all Catholics.
If I wanted to remain a Protestant I wouldn’t have joined the Catholic Church.
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But it seems to me it is the Catholic Church you are complaining about, no? Your Pope, like many of your bishops, rejects this old idea that they are somehow ‘set apart’ – they do not see that Jesus acted in that way, and they seek to imitate him. Paul earned his living as a tent-maker, he was not set apart from everyday life and its concerns. I don’t see Paul acting as an Aaronic priest set apart, but I do see Jesus having a great deal of critical things to say of those in the priesthood who did not stop for the Samaritan, or who thought they were better than poor sinners.
Perhaps your church is going in a direction you don’t like?
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When I can turn bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ and forgive sins (knowing that what I bind on earth is bound in heaven) then I will cease to look upon the priesthood as something set apart by God fro the service of His Church.
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There is setting apart in that way, and there is setting apart in a way which fails to help anyone’s spiritual health.
The footwashing was a pretty later invention rather than an early tradition, and I can’t understand why it is a big thing your own Pope has changed it. Isn’t he set apart as well?
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It is everyone else who has a activist agenda that has made a big deal of it: it is merely an option. But when the Pope needs to rewrite the laws in order to do what others and he himself did in opposition to the laws then maybe its time to not even include it anymore.
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That’s for your church to decide – your Pope just did, if you don’t like it then I doubt he’s going to lose any sleep over it or change his mind. It wasn’t used in the Mass before 1955 anyway – that’s not exactly ancient history.
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Well he did say that he likes a messy church and he’s done a good bit to further that ideal. I guess order and orderliness (once ascribed to the divine) is now too rigid.
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Human life is messy, it always has been. An awful lot of damage was done by the rigidity which said that the church had to look orderly and clean – have you seen the film ‘Spotlight’? One of the things which comes through strongly is the way in which the appearance and the reputation of the church was put ahead of those complaining about abuse. In the end, nothing actually did the church more damage than that rigidity. It would have been better to have been humble and for the bishops and priests to have thought less about reputation in the short term, and more about truth and who it is they serve. It isn’t the Church, it’s Christ, and in seeking to protect the image if order and purity, they did irreparable harm.
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Yes, Satan hates orderliness, and this was a great example of disorderliness to the max. Nothing is more disorderly than hypocrisy. It needs to be met face on. The bishops you defend . . . are largely to blame. My money was behind Bishop Bruskewitz, Athanasius Schneider and the other good Bishops.
You would have been appalled that I flew in the face of Weakland, Bernardin, Hubbard, Ryan, Hunthausen and others. But I did . . . and was proven right . . . if not in the public square in the information that has been forthcoming on them. Have they been publicly condemned by the Church? No. It isn’t our way, since we do not speak of the dead and malign them; due largely to the fact that we do not know their disposition at the hour of their death.
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I wonder? It seems too pat – are you really sure that not a single traditionalist bishop covered up abuse? That is not the story from Ireland. Was Law a V2 man too? Perhaps all V2 men are? Either way, doesn’t look good.
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How many times do I have to bring this distinction to you: not VII but “spirit” of VII. Have you not ever heard C speak of these atrocities to you?
And I do not get the point of this reply.
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Yes, I have heard people on both sides speak of the ‘spirit of vatican II’. The point was that it is not just modernist bishops, whatever they might be, who have done bad things – I doubt a single modernist backed Peron and his repressive regime, ditto Franco and Salazar.
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There are some Christian denominations that practice foot washing following each communion service, in line with Christ Passover practice, they include all disciples.
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Rob, that is fine for those who want that. It is not what Christ did, however, and it is not what the Catholic Church did before VII or actually legally sanctioned before Pope Francis. Anybody can make up whatever symbolism that floats their boat. But it is sad to see us bow to practices untraditional to the RCC and have little, if nothing, to do with our own ancient traditions. Seems our tradions are being sold out to the court of public opinion.
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So you say!
But for a start there is no evidence that Bishops were a continuation of apostolic ministry – both existed at the same time in NT times and had different functions.
Most other Christians take the foot washing as simply symbolic that we should humbly serve one another. If the RCC has made it into an elitist ceremony more the pity for them.
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Its not your tradition Rob. We think everything involved in Holy Thursday was involved with the making of Bishops/priests for the continualtion of the Holy Sacrifice as practiced by Christ at the first Communion meal. If you don’t, you don’t. That is no reason for us to follow a newer tradition than our ancient one.
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I would be interested to know the first source and date of the tradition you mention as it is not explicit in scripture.
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The source is tradition Rob. It needs nothing else to lean on. But it is based in the scriptural accounts. You know quite well that Christ only washed the feet of the 12 Apostles (all men) before instituting the Eucharist. Everything follows from that.
Please show me in scripture or some other source where some Christian Churches are washing the feet of ALL disciples. You can’t, because it isn’t there.
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I was interested in the source of that particular RCC tradition and when it appeared if you could direct me to it. I was not suggesting you needed that information for your own faith.
Christ said and did many things with the 12 which we take to apply to all believers.
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Doing things and doing liturgy whilst commaniding the Apostles to repeat it, are rather distinct in my mind.
See, Rob, the problem from a Catholic perspective is the disconnect that is beginning to appear between teaching and practice. This has never been seen by us to be a general act of equality between all believers any more than the gifts of the keys, the ability to forgive sins, to bind and loose both on earth and in heaven etc. The breathing on the apostles was not repeated on all disciples (both men and women). All of these things were gifts given to the Apostles alone. There are quantitative differences between the ordained and the non-ordained. We are not all equal. I cannot forgive sins and I cannot pray over bread and wine and have it be anything other than what it is. There are many ministries that the non-ordained are equally involved in. But when it comes to liturgy, the priesthood, the Pope . . . we follow what we see created by Christ in Scripture. The washing of the feet occurred at the beginning of the new liturgy instilled that night and our present liturgy is largely based upon what we find there and the changes that the Apostles and their successors instituted.
I for one lament the tearing asunder of practice and teaching. For those that don’t have the same teaching, they can see these practice as anything they want to see it as and they have not done violence to their faith or their liturgy.
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So, including females in the foot washing will let evil agendas into the pure and white Church. Heaven forbid.
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Yes, wouldn’t want those awful women to get their feet washed. Actually, I rather loved it!
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You evil female you
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If only you knew the half of it Bosco … 🙂 xx
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Jessica and Rob, as Fr. Z stated, the foot washing rite had to do with apostolic ministry. Now it does not. Nuff said.
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Not really I am asking how early /late the RCC doctrine on foot washing can be dated to. Guess I will have to do my own research as no answers coming from the RC s here.
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As far as I can work out, there are no references in the Apostolic fathers, and whilst Tertullian mentions it, he offers no details, no more than does St Augustine.
According to the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia (which I hope no one thinks is a product of Vatican II) it dates from the latter half of the 12th century when:
“the pope washed the feet of twelve sub-deacons after his Mass and of thirteen poor men after his dinner.”
From 1570 through to 1955 it was nothing to do with the Mass on Maundy Thursday but became for after a revision by Pius XII.
Like a lot of things we get told are ‘traditional’ it is a later tradition which has been subject to change and has been changed again by this Pope.
Sometimes seems to me some of our RC brothers here are shouting ‘stop the world I want to get off’. They seem not to much like the Church they joined any more. I am sad for them.
One reason I have stayed in my church is that I know it, and I know its traditions and how it works – I had no rose-tinted specs and no conversionitis.
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At what point did Fr Z become infallible? The Orthodox Church, equally ancient, does not take your view. Nothing wrong with your view, of course, except your own Pope no longer holds it. Perhaps you guys should join Fr Z’s church?
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We are there, it’s the pope that needs to leave, and that will be soon. Then, since the pope is protestant, I’m sure he would find a home more suitable to his liking within the Anglican community.
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I did – and it was lovely – it was because I was a stranger in the church and the priest corralled all the strangers – a lovely gesture.
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I picked this article up about the BBC documentary ‘The Battle for Christianity’ from ‘RZIM Zacharias Trust’ an organisation dealing with apologetics. You may find it interesting a positive note on Christianity from BBC for once.
On Tuesday, 22nd March, Frog and Amy Orr-Ewing’s Latimer Minster was featured on BBC ONE on ‘The Battle For Christianity’. The documentary examines the reasons in the UK context behind a rise in popularity in Christianity and shows how confident, assertive faith is replacing traditional churches.
The Head of Religion & Ethics at the BBC, Aaqil Ahmed said, “Christianity is not in terminal decline as many would have us believe, it’s just different now and it’s growing. It also means we have to confront two big issues. One is our chronic lack of religious literacy in society. If there are more diverse forms of Christianity growing alongside other faiths then can we continue with our blind ignorance and relegation of faith and believers?
Christianity may have been pronounced to be at death’s door in the last century but now it’s firmly back in the public space and how we deal with that is the real battle for Christianity here in the UK.”
Watch the documentary here: bit.ly/BattleforCTY
Read Aaqil’s full post about making the documentary here: bbc.in/1XMZq4L
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I went to a lecture by him at C’s university – seems a good man. Happy Easter Rob!
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Happy Easter jess we just had a lovely day in tenerife with a Spanish family and a giant paella!
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Sounds wonderful – and I am so glad you did xx
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The eminent theologian Fats Waller has much to say about foot-washing.
It all depends on who has dirty feet and how much they smell. The traditional view of the church is that women don’t need it.
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I beg to differ – after a very long walk it’s nice to have my feet washed – they glow, of course, rather than sweat.
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Well, just as well you don’t belong to the RCC – if you belonged to the RCC, they wouldn’t allow you to take a nice hike up Ben Nevis or engage in any activities that gave you sweaty feet. It would be ‘Kirche Küche Kinder’ or whatever they call it. Ask QVO – he knows all about it.
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