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… my thoughts on recent events here. Fellow goes away for a few days to help those hit by local landslides (as though those hit by the floods last year haven’t sufficient to cope with) and finds his favourite blog looking like a war zone. As a fellow who’s been known to say a few judgmental things about himself and others, and who therefore sits in a glass house, I’m keeping stones away. My thought on Jessica’s posts is that she is coming from a Christian position few of us have reached yet. I’ve a sense that her illnesses and the long isolation have not been without their effect on her development. So much is this the case that I’m not sure many of us can get to where she is at the moment; Rob seemed to me to catch it best when he wrote:
However I support the approach Jess took which far more closely follows Christ example in dealing with those designated publicans and sinners by certain religious types. The charge against her as a trouble maker was hurtful and unnecessary.
Jess I am wondering whether your resilience and ability to cope with such a ruff handling has suffered somewhat since your health challenges
I found myself saying ‘hear, hear!’ to both bits, as well as echoing his doubts about wanting to stay if the lass is gone. We can all fail in understanding and love, and I should know, as one of the experts in it. I agree with Neo, too, that the devil got in here and had wreaked mischief.
I don’t think anyone else has yet said what I’m going to say here from the bottom of my heart – which is to Jessica herself, and here goes with all the hamfistedness of a Yorkshireman for whom ‘feelings’ may run deep but seldom surface.
Jessica, this place is your creation, what is good about it comes from your inspiration, and when you were gone you were much missed. In your absence it can be a blog where Protestants such as myself, Noe, Rob and Jock can put our point of view, or where Catholics of various hues, can do the same, from Chalcedon’s sagacious caution, through Dave Smith’s formidable apologetics, out to the wide shores of the Sargasso Sea where our own version of Flanders and Swann lives. But we’re none of us, not one of us, capable of what you bring here, which is some hard-won insight into the mystery of the nature of God’s love. Yes, it can make some of us worry, but we should have more courage and know and trust you better than we do. You ask searching questions about what it means to walk with Christ, you disturb some of the comfortable positions some of us reached some time ago. We react to your preaching of love, perhaps, like this Church authorities Chalcedon talked about in his most interesting commentary yesterday – we worry about the law and the pastoral effects, when we ought to know with Paul that the Law saves no one, we cannot save ourselves with it, and we can keep it only with the Grace of God – we need to remember to lean on Christ more and our own pride less; perhaps a woman who has been through what you have has learnt that in a way a bunch of disputatious blokes haven’t.
I’ve learnt a deal reading you – we all have. We don’t always agree, but you don’t demand that. But though you don’t demand it, you deserve our respect. Some of the fellows who said hard things have done the big thing and said they are sorry. These are men I respect, and I respect them the more for living up to what I’d hope they’d do if they got it wrong. Their failures, like mine, and like your own, are all signs of why we’re here, to explore our faith in Christ, Jesus and to reach a better understanding.
We have erred and strayed, we have let the devil in, but we are Christians, and we can repent – and do. I was looking forward to reading further thoughts from you during the end of Lent – when you usually have good things for us. I hope you catch these words – and the prayers for you than come with them. If anyone wanted to read the sound of a clanging gong when love is absent, we’ve done a good job of showing them – now, and I hope with your continued participation, we can try the other thing – how is it when they say ‘see how those Christians love each other!’ Let’s try love.
Looking at the more recent comments it seems to me that the good genius of this place is reasserting itself, and I see a set of good men wandering among the ruins trying to find ways of rebuilding – and I see that rebuilding going on as we all stop and take a breath and try to put our egos to one side for a moment. That, dear Jessica, is your work here, it is the apostolate you founded, and which I sincerely believe will founder without you. We are all sinners, we have all gone astray. I know you well enough to know that you will have repented of some of the things you wrote in the heat of a moment when you were replying to three sets of arguments at a time, and already feeling you were not being read properly. If anyone wants a one-dimensional confessional blog where they can hear only what the sound of their own voice has already said, there are many such – but there’s only one place like this.
We would, and I think I speak (for once) for us all, like you back for Easter, and rest assured, no recriminations and an opportunity for us all – you included, to show the power of the love of God which we, none of us, deserve, but all of us have received. Freely as we have received, so freely do we give.
Hope you are well,
Geoffrey
Thank you Geoffrey. I am more touched than I can say by what you say here, and by the messages I have had from others. I can’t trust my emotions to say more now – but just thank you ๐ xx
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I didn’t join the group until you had already been on the road to recovery. When people spoke about you, you seemed mythological in a way. Yet, you existed, because this community existed. Even though at the time o had no interaction with you, I viewed you as some sort of great shepherd. There seems to be a lesson in those statements for all.
When we did interact, I believe we understood each other enough to know our boundaries–a God given talent to build such relationships.
Regardless of what the future holds, may God truly bless your future.
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What a lovely thing to say – thank you.
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The thanks are to you, lass – you founded this place and it can be, if we let it, a force for good. I’m glad you’re responding ๐
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I should have to have a heart of stone not too. I have a sense now that all will be well, and all manner of things will be well.
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Well, it is certainly the ground of our beseeching! ๐ xx
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As one of the gallant “click” who defended Jessica from Phil and MickyRoss in the days when she was driven from Damian Thompson’s blog – and I used to see her quite a lot on my own luvvly blogg, but she seems to have given up on that – I’ve been an ally of Jessica’s for several years. I also know that she can be hurt by insensitive people.
I hope that she’ll be back after a short rest.
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Good comment Bruvver – and it will, I hope, encourage her.
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Darling eccles, until recently it has been hard to get a reliable net connexion – but I shall have to visit the ‘luvverly blogg’ again. You, Gareth, dear Hamish and others were indeed the soul of gallantry. Your words are balm in Gilead – and you are a dear ๐ xx Jess
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Geoffrey, dear friend and colleague, you say here what I believe as well, and far better than I could. Let us, perhaps, continue the journey all together. I hope Jess will rejoin us if she feels strong enough for it because we all know that there will be potholes. That is what happens when strong belief is displayed, and others are even slightly different from it. But we do need to go back to the tone that the Chatelaine taught us all.
I too fear for our future without her. But I want her to do what is best for herself. We’ll see, God help us all.
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Aye, if we are with God, it will stand, if not, not. But we’re a miserable crew of sinners indeed if we let this fail.
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Yep, to paraphrase from mine yesterday, A time to build, or perhaps more accelerating, rebuild.
The lass showed us how, maybe if we follow them, we can do this. If she rejoins us, it will be better, and easier. But it will never be easy, but what that is worthwhile is?
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I’ve a sense that something which has been toxic for a while here has been broken – which is all to the good. We’re better for her being here, and I hope Jessica will feel able to stay now.
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Agree, it climaxed last week, but there’s been a bit of miasma about the place for awhile. But I suspect the fever has broken, to horribly mix metaphors.
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Let’s hope so.
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Indeed, and let us work to make it so.
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“A new commandment I give unto you…” is the watchword of this blog and how Jesus calls those who love him to behave towards one another. Seventy times seven… etc
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Very true indeed – good advice we should all heed. Thank you.
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Hear, hear, Geoffrey.
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Thank you my friend – I do think there was something bad lurking here, and I hope we have exorcised it.
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I think the ‘bad lurking here’ was more likely the confusion that satan loves to create. When you get so many voices carrying on different threads at the same time if becomes impossible to keep order. Poor Jess was overwhelmed and any of us who might have popped in to another thread without reading and thinking about what was being said only added to the confusion. It happerened before and might happen again as we all have our own little points that differ. Jessica has a genius to stir up lively debate: I think back to the posts on hell and its existence and the immortality of the souls in hell etc.
And Bosco, may also be right that we beat the dickens out of David rather than approached him in a way that might have him reexamine whether or not his methods were something compatible with the Christian faith. Probably not our finest hour. ๐
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No, it wasn’t, and I think that was when the devil entered in. I noticed Jessica stayed out – and that should have given us a hint.
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Indeed so. In this season where we seek repentance, if David is reading, I hereby wish to offer my apologies for the tone of my comments and even some of its content. Perhaps I will drop him a quick email as well.
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Good idea. I still don’t like what I saw, but yes, I wasn’t exactly the picture of charity.
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One must be careful in defending the truth that we hold. Too often we can club the offender so brutally that all charity is forgotten.
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True, but Jock has a point – DMW was saying he was a spiritual adviser and peddling his wares – that’s a bit different. He was given a full chance to defend himself – and didn’t.
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I am not saying, that the rod should have been spared. I am only saying that, stating the truth and admonishing the wrong is probably enough and conscience needs to take over at some point. If it doesn’t, then that is between him and God. But if we move him to despair or to vent his spleen then that might be something we need to take up with our own conscience informed by faith.
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I’m with that Dave. I think, though, we gave him every opportunity to respond, as he said he would, and he’s hardly a child. But point taken.
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O he had his opportunities to respond but did he have time to spend some quiet moments with his conscience once he was informed? I’m sure, like all us older folk, he is trying to get his house in order. If we drove him to respond by discounting our arguments because to him they seemed to be an outburst of mean spiritedness then we won the argument but helped lose the man.
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Dave – I don’t agree with this at all. In the case of DMW, he had TWO posts devoted to his stuff to defend it. He knew exactly what we all thought of that sort of thing before he wrote these posts and NOWHERE AT ALL did he even attempt to explain how we had misunderstood the Holy Writ and how what he was doing was in line with Christian faith. He didn’t try to defend what he was doing at all – and simply stated that it was a matter between him and his God and if we couldn’t accept that, then we should go to the place where the sun don’t shine.
Before that I got bad impression – I felt at times, perhaps unfairly, that he was the ‘bigot of the blog’. He had a particularly nasty line against Bosco (perhaps Bosco deserved it – but his approach was particularly marked) So when he got hammered I for one didn’t feel that it was out of place and I felt that he could dish it out but he couldn’t take it.
We’re in danger of retreating into some sort of high handed sanctimony here if we’re really calculating ‘oh should we give him the rod – or should we spare it? oh – if we give him the rod then we’d better make sure that it isn’t so severe that he feels completely cut off.’ This sounds to me like pure sanctimony.
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There is no doubt that his posts needed to be debunked for what they were. I am only questioning how many times we needed to say it and in how many ways the same thing had to be repeated. Seems, if I remember rightly, we may have piled on excessively where our case was already won and shown to him without any possibility of his being able to refute our points. A beating is only effective if you ellicit a change in behaviour, thinking or attitude to that which is proper. If you get the wrong result or no result then was it productive?
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Dave – in his case, I think the result was a foregone conclusion. He says he’s been doing this for 30 years – he’s heard and rejected all the arguments against it. We weren’t going to change it.
One excellent thing that arose from it: Geoffrey reminded me of the song ‘lilly the pink’ which I hadn’t heard for several decades. I now sing it to my son – and he likes it. So – from the jaws of a dead lion came forth Tate and Lyle’s golden syrup.
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Indeed. ๐ You seem to be a master at deriving a benefit from nearly everything Jock.
Actually, I agree, and think you put your finger on the difference. David, had battled this with other folks before and simply continues to dismiss the objective teachings and evidence presented him. We hate hurting people but he was hurting himself and will not relinquish that which is more hurtful than any beating we could ever give him. He preferred to fashion his own conscience for pragmatic reasons rather than let Christianity inform it.
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Good points. We should not over-react here. DMW’s been around the block a time or three.
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Oh come on. If you present ideas as wacky as David B Monier-Williams, you should expect to get some stick – and I suspect that he’s had at least 30 years defending his zany ideas against worse criticism than anything we gave him. This really was something completely ‘off the wall’.
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That’s very true Jock – and it was, in my view, dangerous nonsense.
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Yes, Bosco’s point on David has been in my mind all night as well, I hope he’ll return. We all were rather hard on him, and we definitely made it personal. Let us try and make amends.
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Thank you young man. One of the few things I learned as a young man myself was beware of redheads when they get cross ๐
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We all learn the hard way lad!
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Amen to that ๐
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Geoffrey, a truly timely and moving post. Jessica will respond tomorrow. You jave my deepest thanks.
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Thank you C – I look forward to her contribution – as ever.
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Deeply moving, Geoffrey, I mean that sincerely. I’ve been largely absent from the blog these past weeks other than cursory reading of the posts and unable to offer any help. However, I recognize the words of wisdom and charity and healing in what you have written. Good man.
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Thank you Zeke – hopefully healing and growth will follow.
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Well written Geoffrey and I’m sure I can say a great thankyou from all of us.
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Ditto.
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Thanks Steve.
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Thanks Rob.
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