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Abraham, Abundant life, Alphonsus Maria de Liguori, Bible, Christ, Epistle to the Philippians, God, Holy Spirit, Jesus, Peace With God
Update: Due to a timing mixup, this published at the same as Dave Smiths Quo Vadis, which precedes it. Do read it as well.
Sorry Dave. Neo
This morning Gareth commented on Vale saying
Now, this Sunday morning, I have found the devil has been at work here too. So sad that we forget the devil is most active in the very time – Lent – when we try to follow our Lord in the wilderness.
I was going to post here the Latin prayer of exorcism, but stopped myself just in time: those words should only be pronounced by a priest. I suggest instead that we use whatever form of prayer is appropriate to our different Christian traditions on this blog. The attacks of Satan can only be repelled in this way, and not by arguments, excuses, and failure to repent of evil.
Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner. Maranatha. Come Lord Jesus.
Amen, and amen.
Seems to me that we have all adopted the mores of the American election process here, lately, and it’s quite unseemly. We have been talking (well shouting) past each other and none of us has been listening effectively, if at all. Well, that’s toxic to what our mission here is, and it claimed a victim.
The men in their obstinance have driven out the Chatelaine of the Watchtower.
Can we do this mission without her? Well, I don’t know, we are a contentious bunch. Are we even going to try? I don’t know that either. I spoke with Chalcedon yesterday, he is very discouraged, as am I, and by the same thing that drove Jess from our midst. Not that we should not disagree, we always have, we always will. But by the tone we have all adopted, which could well be called ‘my way or the highway’.
That’s the tone that leads to a bar fight, not a discussion that illuminates. Some of us are more guilty of this, than others, I expect, but none of us are innocent, either.
I admire Jock, who said this morning.
Jessica, I now understand from both NEO and Rob that it was my last comment which played the decisive role in driving you from your own blog.
I wrote it in anger, without any time for reflection. It was mean spirited and nasty and I apologise unreservedly for it.
Takes a real man to take responsibility like that. I too have said some hard things that have hurt feelings, I too apologize.
But, in truth, from what Jess has told me, it wasn’t Jock, or QVO, or me, or any of us individually, it was the tone of the entire comment streams this week that she found toxic, and led to her withdrawal. She’s right, they were. Go back and read some of them calmly, many hard things were said, and we continually broke with our practice here of stating our beliefs calmly and rationally, opting instead to make personal attacks on each other.
As Rob said, I think there was a good bit of talking right past each other, as well. What really happened is that we all dug in like it was the last ditch and we had to defend it. Well guys, it’s not. Whatever we do here, our churches will survive, they will change, yes. They always have, maybe some will drop by the wayside, if so, then others will take their place. Whatever. I think we can safely leave that part in God’s hands.
We here, all of us, We are on the Lord’s side, maybe we should learn again to act like it. The adversary is over there somewhere, attack him, not each other, and do it in love, that’s how we grew, always, and its the only way we will grow now.
Ecclesiastes 3 tells us
To Everything There is a Season
1To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
We have cast away she who is, I think, the best of us, now is, I think a time to heal.
Maranatha, Indeed
All Along the Watchtower 
I came back from helping victims of the recent landslides in these parts to this chaos. I’ve not the heart to wade through carefully, but didn’t like the tone of some of what was said to Jess, and doubt folk have quite grasped her sense – Rob got it, but there was a great deal of talking past each other.
Probably no bad idea to have your one here and Dave’s up at the same time. Wi’out the lass we’re an even more miserable bunch – she has some wisdom we have not, and when we stop getting antsy because we’re being disturbed by actual ideas, this place is at its best.
One from me tomorrow – but more power to your elbow Neo – you say it as it is. GRSS
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Thanks Geoffrey, I’ve found that nothing is served by obfuscating facts.
Yep, of us all, Rob was the only one that really got it.
We are, the lass kept on on track better than anyone else.
That friend of Jess and I was horrified, the quote I used was the nicest thing they said about us, that can’t be what we are about.
I’ll look forward to your thoughts tomorrow, as well.
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I’m not going to go back to the comments – whatever was going on, I understand why Gareth thought of exorcism.
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I skimmed a lot myself, I do as well.
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Geoffrey – at the risk of putting my foot in it, I don’t believe that Rob got anything of importance at all. I regret very much my own outburst . which was deeply unhelpful.
The problem was that she stated a general principle that every single one of us would agree on – but when I tried to figure out who were the nasty horrible people she was speaking out against, who didn’t adhere to it, I (a) simply couldn’t see who she was on about and (b) began to get a creepy feeling that it was an unfair attack.
The examples that Rob brought up simply served to emphasise this, describing situations where everybody would appreciate the charity shown by Christians and thank God for the working of the Holy Spirit – but then there was the sting; this was the true expression of Christian love, which would not be shown by some nasty bunch of people, claiming to be Christian, whom neither Jessica nor Rob seemed prepared to put the finger on.
I got a creepy feeling that the nasty people might include me, since I am a ‘protestant’, one of those whom Fr Longnecker seemed to have it in for.
I’d like to know what Rob actually ‘got’ that the rest of us didn’t.
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Let’s see if I can shed a bit of light, without burning down the barn, for once.
I think what Rob saw, and for that matter what Jess and I both saw as well is this.
Fr Longnecker is I think, currently in America. Here we have a bunch of quite offensive Protestants (and remember I’m a protestant too) who are terrific at judging people, without even bothering with facts. Fr was comparing them with some Catholic traditionalists, who do much the same. In the American short form context, we tend to call them Fundamentalists, and that who he was referring to, I think. But you, and Rob, for that matter, are real fundamentalists, as maybe is Geoffrey, depending on definitions, and I don’t think he meant people like you.
What Jess was doing, I think, was to remind us that we are not called to judge that way, that’s God’s job. Our job is to reach out, with love, to believers and unbelievers alike. We can’t do the fine points of theology with one who doesn’t know Jesus, they’ll simply run away, forever.
I didn’t read Fr. Longnecker as at all anti-Protestant. I’ve never heard that from him, and I read him often.
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Ah ha – many thanks for this. Then that puts a bit of context to it which was lacking. I try to remain aggressively ignorant of church politics (and, for example, was very happy when the discussion on Chalcedon’s post on Cardinal Pell switched to discussion of whether or not there was a real presence, what John’s gospel had to say about it, what Paul had to say, etc …. – much more interesting for me).
Rob does tend to keep himself informed about which group believes what – so he would be more likely to understand what Jessica was on about.
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Yep, lack of context can be a killer, and sometimes when we post, we forget, that not everyone reads things like that the way we do.
There are days, when I think you are wiser than we on that. 🙂
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I did nor read the articles Jess and others were referring to, as someone engaged in life long evangelism and church planting I simply supported Jess’ approach towards unbelievers.
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Fair enough, Rob. But you are one of the few, who caught what she was talking about, which I found quite obvious.
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We all get sensitive when we think someone’s having a go – even when they aren’t. In my own case it’s usually a guilty conscience at work – if it isn’t me they are having a go at, then it might be, because there’s something else that someone ought to have a go at me over! When I was a youngster I used to go at it hammer and tongs – before accepting it was something in me I wasn’t letting go of which sparked the guilt – and usually led to me saying things which would have been best not said. We live, and occasionally, we learn; took me a long time and I don’t say I got it right now.
Rob got what she was saying, which was to do with what C’s Gospel commentary today was saying. That’s the unease we all have in the presence of the immensity of the mercy we have received – which we can’t help comparing with our own inability to practice milder forms of mercy in our own lives. The nasty horrible people are all of us – on occasions.
Thank God I’m not God, I’d throw us all back into the pit we strive so hard to remain in. If nothing else convinced me Jesus is who he said he was, it would be that Mercy beyond my comprehension.
Sometimes, even now, I stand amazed that God loves me enough to have died for me. Some moods, I don’t even like me, let alone love me – but then I’m reminded God does and so go looking to see if I can find what he sees in me. When I lean on his understanding and not mine, I see signs of what it might be – His love itself.
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Jock what I supported was Jess premise that was that the approach towards unbeliever should always be one of love rather than an attack on their sins. I was not actually pointing the finger at anybody. In fact I read very few of the comments apart from some made by Jess as at the moment I am very busy. The fact that Jess needed to defend her position was enough to draw my comments. It seems clear to me that the position put forward followed Christ’s example.
I also commented that I thought people were talking past each other and speaking of different categories of persons. You confirmed this in saying Dave was speaking of those presenting themselves as Christians, wanting to remain part of the church but not desiring to amend their lives. My approach to such people would be quite different, it would require individual assessment to determine the approach I took to each person confrontation over their sin and excluding them from any church (excommunication) I shared responsibility for might well be the course of action.
The point is that Jess was speaking of unbelievers outside the church and I saw no place for debating her point of view on that. Jess may have missed the point that different categories were in view which would would have given a sharper edge to how she took others positions.
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Rob – at the risk of open up the can of worms again – do you think that the two things are incompatible – love of neighbour (which includes everybody whom God puts in your way and not only those who are Christian) and pointing out that sin is exceedingly sinful?
I suppose again – it largely depends on the situation. I have some first rate colleagues, I enjoy their company, I would never dream of berating them about ‘sin’ and they’re professing atheists. I don’t know what God will do with them on the day of judgement; all I can say is that if he casts them into the lake of fire, then it’s His loss for the heavenly kingdom.
At the same time, there are other people who really have to be berated for their sin. For example, one colleague (at a previous university) almost succeeded in getting a mathematician who was much better than he was sacked (on the last in first out principle, because he was able to manufacture a budget crisis) in order to open a position for his girlfriend. Unfortunately for him, the girlfriend (also his Ph.D. student) decided she didn’t like him any more, pleaded sexual harassment – and produced 2000 emails to prove the point. Am I to refrain from berating such a fellow for his sin? He wasn’t (and isn’t) remotely repentant; the only thing that bothered him was getting caught. Of course, he got the sack (and got a better job elsewhere).
I think that this whole business is somewhat case-specific; there aren’t really hard and fast rules and you have to treat each person as they come.
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I’d go further – in the specific case I mentioned, if you don’t actually get heated and hit the ceiling, but instead, with a calm smile on your face, decide that you are not going to be ‘judgemental’, you risk looking utterly sanctimonious and greasy. There are times when a robust response (which involves emotions and harsh words) not only feels right, but actually is right.
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Our Bishop has every parish after the conclusion of mass recite together this prayer of St. Michael the Archangel.
St. Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle.
Be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the Devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray, and do thou,
O Prince of the heavenly hosts,
by the power of God,
thrust into hell Satan,
and all the evil spirits,
who prowl about the world
seeking the ruin of souls. Amen..
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It’s a good one, at one time I believe it was mandated throughout your Church.
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Reblogged this on PUMABydesign001's Blog.
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Thank you, Denise! 🙂
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