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Like all blogs, this one is a medium for communication – it’s distinguishing feature is that it features communication between an unusually diverse set of Christians and, as the comments boxes show, that creates its own strains. We all believe in Jesus as Saviour, but we all carry different baggage about what that means, which means sometimes we get at cross purposes. At times it seems for some that nothing less than strict adherence to every jot and tittle of what a particular church teaches will do, whilst to others that sounds terribly like obeying the letter and ignoring the Spirit – and so the arguments go to and fro. I think something like this is behind the way some of his fellow Catholics feel about the Pope – how dare he, as they see it, go off message? But then if the message is not love and forgiveness to all who seek it, then what is it?
To that the answer seems often to be ‘there is a set of rules, abide by it’ – and what then? Abiding by the ‘rules’ alone never saved a single soul; at best it might have helped prepare the soul to receive the free Grace Christ offers to all who seek him. Paul’s great passage on love in 1 Corinthians 13 is a useful checklist. Without love we are a ‘sounding brass’, we have ‘nothing’ and we are ‘nothing’. Love bids us be ‘kind’, it bids us not to be envious and it is not self-important: it does not imitate the Pharisee who thanks God he is not like a miserable sinner like me; it bears everything – and does not play the martyr in so doing. It is more difficult for us to live up to this sort of love than it is for the camel to go through the eye of the needle. In an odd way, it is so much easier to try to live by a set of rules – even if it means quarrelling with those in your own church who don’t agree with your interpretation of them. All rules need interpretation – as do laws – were it otherwise we’d have no need for lawyers.
I was very struck by Fr Longenecker’s recent piece on Catholic Fundamentalists, as it seemed to me to reflect what happens if you try to obey all the rules and laws without the spirit of love. The good Father rightly commented:
It is pointless to ever argue with these people because they are always right. They have no true repentance in their hearts, but are driven by the worst kind of pride: spiritual pride
He made it clear this group is not to be seen as ‘traditionalists’:
We should separate the paranoid hate mongers from the rest of the traditionalists. They are not traditionalists. They are Protestant fundamentalists wearing traditionalist Catholic clothes.
It is easy enough, in fact most tempting, in our society to have the ‘fortress mentality’ – it is not as though we are not faced with threats. But our most dangerous threat can be from ourselves. Whether or not Gandhi ever said he liked Christ but not Christians, our society often reflects it. It hears us talking about the rules and preaching at it, and it shows what it thinks of us by throwing back in our faces the times we have fallen from Grace – it creates an atmosphere of mutual suspicion, distrust and, at worst, hatred. It is easy to fool ourselves that the world hates us because we are faithful to Christ and it hated him – it is more sobering to suppose we may be hated because are not actually faithful to that teaching that love is the greatest of all the Christian virtues. But have we the courage to face up to that possibility? It may be us – not them.
Excellent post, dearest friend. 🙂 xx It’s very true, in all our churches. Fr Longenecker spells it out very well, and he’s also right that there is a bit (or more) of it in each and every one of us!
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Thank you 🙂 xx
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Jess, I’m sorry but Fr. Dwight wandered too far from the pasture on this one. I have met and spoken with him and genuinely like the man and think of him as a pretty solid and orthodox Catholic. That said . . . lets think a bit about how and what he said without so much as the courtesy to name those whom he attacks.
For that analysis, I would offer the following from the Remnant’s Michael Matt: http://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/2362-the-remnant-demands-a-retraction-from-fr-longenecker
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I thought Matt’s article exactly made Fr L’s point for him. Despite Fr L distinguishing between traditionalists and fundamentalists, Matt simply ignored that – as a fundamentalist on Fr L’s model would. He then attacks lots of other people, and continues with a counter-attack totally lacking in any sense of self-knowledge or acknowledgment of any fault on his side. I’m right, he’s wrong; I have often had to tell five year old boys in the playground that this does not work
As an outsider to this, I can only say that Matt’s piece makes me sorry for a man so far lost in his own self-righteousness that he can see nothing in a piece where many of us see a lot.
It reads like a Republican political polemic.
Oh well I guess it keeps him off the street – but where I can see Fr L winning souls for Christ, I can see Matt only repelling anyone who does not agree with him – he certainly repelled me.
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Am I the only one here that finds it glaringly apparent that Fr. Longenecker uses the very same uncharitable language and tactics that he accuses the ‘fundamentalists’ or ‘traditionalists’ (the new emotionally-charged ’hate words’ of the left) of using? This is classic behavior of the left and a great example of ‘gaslighting’. He accuses others of what he himself is guilty of (lack of charity) and tries to evoke shame and guilt for those who have the gall to attack the actual words of those that are being criticized. We are all therefore crazy and unstable and cannot be ‘true Catholics’ in his mind. It is classic NPD behavior.
Jess let me also address this sentence of yours: “. . . how dare he (speaking of the Pope), as they see it, go off message? But then if the message is not love and forgiveness to all who seek it, then what is it?”
When the Pope recently told the pastors that a penitent need not tell their sins but simply show up at the confessional (which implies the recognition of sin and their sorrow for it) should be given absolution. Never mind that the Church has always required the penitent to relate their sins and say an act of contrition for their sins. If this is taken at face value . . . (which we can never do with this Pope) . . . then a general public absolution should be adequate and private confession can go the way of the dinosaur. There are many other examples of such things which are not merely going off message but getting Catholic teaching objectively wrong.
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But that fails to address the point – is Fr L right, or are you saying, as appears to be the case, there is absolutely nothing in his argument? The com boxes and my reaction show that some of us recognise the phenomenon he describes – and we have at least on friend here who fits the bill. Are we to say nothing to such people about how we see their behaviour and its effects?
What does ‘objectively wrong’ mean in this context? If it means it is not in the rule book as we have always interpreted it, fine, but who is the ‘we’ here? If the Pope and other pastors were to say this is fine because it speaks of God’s love, then they can be wrong in terms of the rule and right in terms of its spirit. It is this obsessive legalism which repels so many.
If those who did obsess were usually (as you are always) charitable on their arguments, it might work, but Matt comes across as a ranter who commands no respect from me, or anyone who does not agree with him. he simply illustrates Fr L’s point – and that he lacks the self-knowledge to see that speaks volumes for the solipsism within which he exists.
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Yes, you specify the inadequacy of the argument and confront it headlong. You do not condemn a whole group of people who merely believe the teachings of the Church as they were always believed and smear them together with the ‘fundamentalist’ (whoever he means by that). Of course, there are some. But even they have made arguments. isn’t this just an ad hominem that is being laid out there in a non-specific and all-inclusive kind of way?
Matt is what I’d call a concerned Catholic who came from a very strong Catholic family. He sees the Church in crisis. Don’t most of us? And this is part of the problem. Where is the explanation for the questions being asked and the interpretation that fits the actual words of our Pope and the German Cardinals etc. with the teachings of the Church? I don’t want to waste my time with those who don’t take up the argument . . . but smears the people making an argument. Matt does not do that but Fr. Longenecker just did.
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He isn’t doing that. He is specifying a set of attitudes he finds out there. I find them there too/ It is precisely no ad hom – and I am unclear how naming names would be less ad hom?
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Then if you don’t name names you could present their argument and refute it, couldn’t you?
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He did, I thought.
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“What does objectively wrong mean . . ,”
Do we really have to answer this? Have we lost the idea of reconcilliation and the fact that sin separates us from Communion with Christ and the Church? Is repentance now passe? Is everybody forgiven automatically because it is merciful to do so whether or not they recognize the seriousness of their sin or whether they should feel profound sorrow for having committed serious sin? Have we dumbed down the Christian faith this far in our day? It almost leaves me speechless.
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No, but this fails to address the issue of what the point of being objectively right and lacking in love might be?
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Point out who and where and in what argument being made lacked this. If that is the point Fr. is making . . . rewrite the offending remarks and correct them or re-structure it so that it does include love. Although I must say some of the teachings of St. Paul are more specific and condemning than many a traditional or fundamental argument I’ve read in our days.
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Matt’s article does all the things he says. There is nothing in it of love at all. It reads like a Republican speech from Trump.
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No, it reads like a set of questions for Fr. L to answer.
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Sounds to me like Matt’s a bit touchy.
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Sounds like you, Matt and Fr. L are a bit touchy. I can guarantee that Matt has far more experience with getting brow beat than Fr. L or yourself ever has.
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Jess, most people want a civil discussion conducted like gentlemen. All questioning and criticism deserves to be responded to just as we do with people of other religions. This type of article only divides people into enclaves of nut jobs. It is not so. If you get beyond the rhetoric there are important questions to be responded to and addressed and via apologetics corrected. This does not help the situation at all.
For instance, these are taken from Fr. L’s post:
“You’ll see how they lie, misrepresent and tear down fellow Catholics . . . “ Like you just did by linking each individual who might be guilty of criticizing the words or actions of a Pope or some of our Bishops.
“It is pointless to ever argue with these people because they are always right. They have no true repentance in their hearts, but are driven by the worst kind of pride: spiritual pride.” – A very prideful statement on its own merit.
“Their response to this blog post, for instance, will be to retreat further into their self made holy fortress and throw stones over the parapet at me–not addressing my points, but resorting to name calling.” – A bit paranoid don’t you think?
“They have their watertight world view. No discussion. No dialogue. It’s their way or the highway. Their response to this blog post will prove my point, for the ones to whom I am referring will not engage my points, but dismiss me and my message.” – Just as you have said that you will not answer them or the points that they might make.
“The Catholic fundamentalists who bother to read this far and react in anger to this blog post, for example, will prove my point and they will not even be able to see this themselves.” – But you do not see that the statements you’ve made are of the same variety. Only you can see the this in them, though not in yourself.
“I know what I’m talking about because, on my worst days, I see that kind of Catholic looking back at me from the mirror.” – The final clincher. See my humility? I even have seen some of this in me too. We all relate to his apparent humility and lack of spiritual pride which the bad guys possess.
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I can’t agree. Fr L specifically does not lump people together – if Matt thinks he does, he might get down off his high horse and learn to read a text. Judging by Matt’s response and that of others to Fr L, I’d say his point is thereby proven – not paranoia at all.
I find his humility and willingness to admit his own defects a refreshing change from Matt’s hysterical posturing. I read Matt’s piece carefully and can only say that I would run from any church run by men like that – fast and far.
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I think Matt got the right tone from the article but I think you missed it. Fr. L did exactly what he blamed the fundamentalists of doing. It is obvious.
You confuse the cliche half-hearted almost defect (of course he catches it before any damage is done). And now Matt has turned into hysterical posturing? Have you not gone far beyond the intent of the piece here? BTW he doesn’t run any church; just a good Catholic man who continues the good fight to end the secular slide that Church seems to be on.
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I think they both did it – Fr L was at least aware of it – Matt’s level of self unawareness was parodic – I first thought it was satire illustrating Fr L’s thesis – that’s how bad it read.
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Whatever. I tried to make my point and I failed. Perhaps if a writer of greater talent and thinking had produced the argument it would have gone better. You too stood your ground and even you, with far better writing skills, have not swayed me to the least.
No matter how much I like a person and what they usually say, I cannot simply rubber stamp something that strikes me as wrongheaded. You know that about me . . . for I confront even those who are closest to my thinking here. Fr. Longenecker is quite sound on most things but in this instance he was wrong: you don’t think so . . . but I am convinced of it. 🙂
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That is fine dear friend, and we disagree when we do in a civilised fashion – I think Matt and Fr L could learn something from us there 🙂 xx
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Here is the love that Fr. Longenecker spread:
“Fundamentalists are angry and aggressive, and given enough rope they will move from verbal violence to physical violence.” Thus says, Fr. L in his article. He then compares traditional or fundamentalist Catholics to fundamentalist Muslims. What hysterical blather.that is only fit for the likes of a Harry Reid or Hillary Clinton or the good old race baiters like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. Hyperbole to the extreme.
In this modern Western Civilization of the US and Western Europe is this a dynamic that you have witnessed, Fr. L? It is offensive to anyone with a brain who has stood by and watched radical Muslims attack free persons and torture, behead and kill Christians whenever possible. This should be denounced as hate speech if not called out as a fabrication dreamed up in a fertile imagination. It is not a real concern and he knows it or is merely trying to sway people by instilling fear and loathing in his audience.
But I suppose, you think this was fair game. I’m actually shocked that anyone would buy into this.
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If you are sure no Catholic was ever involved in fire-bombing abortion clinics, I would agree with you here.
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None that I know of: do you know some?
If there were 1 or 2 would that constitute enough proof for you to smear everyone that disagrees with the leadership of the Church?
Seems that you do not mind the rapes and murders etc. when it comes to illegal Mexican of Politically arranged Muslim refugees. We cannot smear them as a group . . . God forbid. But a Catholic fundamentalist or traditionalist is fair game and in fact is far more dangerous than these others. I give up . . . I feel like I’m trying to argue with a college kid that just finished a course in community organizing taught by Professor Obama.
What is next: the 1%, white privilege, black lives matter, rich should pay their fair share . . . . ?
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My view is we should smear no group – I think you are seeing this through the eyes of a Republican. As I say, where does Jesus say ask why someone needs your help before offering it?
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I am an Independent because the Democrats have become Marxists, Socialists and Communists – and our Republicans are sitting by and letting them have their way and sometimes aiding and abetting it. I vote in the Republican primaries and am forced to vote Republican because it is a stop-gap measure until true constitutional conservatism can be reinstated in this country.
Where did I say that someone in need must ask me for help before offering it? Americans are the most generous people on the face of the planet and you know it. we provide more aid and help around the world than the rest of the world combined.
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I interpreted your comment about no one being on the street unless they had put themselves there as meaning that they should not be helped – if that was the wrong way to see it, I do apologise. 🙂 xx
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Thank you . . . apology fully accepted. 🙂 xx
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That’s fine, dear friend, I am sorry for misreading. Those com boxes are small – and my goodness there are a lot of comments in them 🙂 xx
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Indeed so, my friend. Nobody can say that we don’t have spirited arguments here. 🙂 xx
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This is very true 🙂 xx
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You like apples, Father? Well how about these apples: Your cool little goatee and carefully shaved head lead me to conclude that you are ready to move from Catholic priest to satanic priest, following after your hero, Anton Szandor LaVey
http://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/2362-the-remnant-demands-a-retraction-from-fr-longenecker
Good observation, and hes not wrong.
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You obviously didn’t understand that this was written as satire did you?
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Uh, no I didn’t. I thought he was saying whats on his mind.
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Please learn how to read over the summer. It might help.
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Ok, I looked at it again. If you say its just a humorous article, ill take your word for it. It was funny. My first thought was…..catholics usually don’t slam other catholics.
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Well Dave, rather pointless to debate this. Fr Longenecker said it all.
“It is pointless to ever argue with these people because they are always right. They have no true repentance in their hearts, but are driven by the worst kind of pride: spiritual pride”
To paraphrase, by their words, ye shall know them.
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. . . as he is implying that he is always right. You do not see what I see . . . which is classic liberal argumentation: blame the other side by utilizing the same exact arument style that is being attacked. It is too obvious for you to miss.
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But is that not exactly what Matt is doing too? Since when did two wrongs make a right?
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Matt is responding . . . not initiating. There is a difference when Fr. did not have the decency to specify what ‘wing nut websites’ or individuals he was referring to. Fr. Dwight left the lumping together of anyone who might think that they are simply good Catholics. Most of us, Matt included, do not think of ourselves as fundamentalists or traditionalists (though we believe in tradition and the teachings of the Church) but simply as Catholic. Apparently, he doesn’t think we are . . . or is not willing to call out EXACTLY the individuals, groups or websites he is referring to. He is not attacking the arguments being made anyway . . . no matter if they are off-base. He is attacking some ‘cloudlike’ group that is never specified.
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He specifically said he would not because he did not want to point the finger. But had he wanted to, that site proves his point. Anyone with any intelligence can see the difference, and the way Matt can’t and acts as Fr L says such people act shows Matt up.
I doubt any fanatic says ‘I am a fanatic’, just as no one says ‘I am acting from spiritual pride’ or ‘I am wrong’ – this type of Christian seems, alas, utterly unable to see anything for which they have to repent.
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Doesn’t that sound strange to you? He did point the finger and wagged in before anyone who has criticized any of the words of our Pope or the hierarchy.
I doubt you know enough about Matt to know, quite respectively. If you know something about him and the mission that he has continued after his father’s death then let me know. He is critical of much that has happened in the faith since VII and so are a bunch of us. He makes arguments. If Fr. Dwight doesn’t like the argument he should feel free to debate the point. And now you, too, are going to single out Matt (in your great charity of course) as a hater and a fanatic. That is not an argument against any of the points Matt made in his arguments . . . once again, a mere ad hominem. Oh yes, let’s smear him with the ‘spiritual pride’ one . . . that is always effective. It is almost as good as the old, “When did you stop beating your wife?” routine. Could someone not turn this same argument back on Fr. himself? What is to be gained by this?
Ah, and since now these people (whoever they might be . . . but of course we know Michael Matt is one) will uttlerly be unable to repent from their sin. You now read souls my dear. How nice. Please evaluate mine so that I won’t need go to self examine before Confession.
But, it seems rather strange, in the Mercy of the Pope and what you, yourself put forward. Shouldn’t all these folks be forgiven even without actually confessing their sins because, after all, they did show up at the Confessional?
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That’s not how I read it at all. Where is he saying anyone who criticises the Pope is a fundamentalist? He is saying that certain types of criticism come under that heading – and it seems to me simply a matter of fact that some of them do. It is this ‘all or nothing’ approach I am not understanding – where is he lumping all traditionalists together? He specifically says the opposite.
No, I am not saying Matt is a hater – I leave that sort of language to him. I am saying he seems to me narrow-minded and lacking in love and any ability to appeal to anyone who does not already agree with him. As for spiritual pride, all I can say is there is an utter lack of self-knowledge and Christian humility – if you can spot any there, do point it out to me. He does exactly what Fr L said such people do – and he can’t even see it. where such blindness comes from, who knows, but it sounds nothing like anything Jesus ever said.
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And some does come under that heading . . . nobody denied that. Then give us an example and excoriate the perpetrator of the rubbish.
I saw no hatred in Matt and you did. Matt hates no one of which I am aware. I saw a man that feels that he and others were slandered and lumped together and he saw a ‘thinly masked’ reference to his own site. He is within his rights to be angered if that is the case. It is up to Fr. Dwight to answer Matt’s direct questions.
Self-knowledge and humility are now the criteria that I am to try to look for in a single post from an author? Probably 99 out of 100 articles on this site would not portray such and that is matter for the individual and his conscience or his spiritual advisor . . . not some generalized take on a human soul because you disagree with him taking exception to Fr. Dwight’s post.
And Fr. L did what these people do . . . fomenting ideas of hate speech and such liberal nonsense. That is a cheap argument. No – what is blindness is not being able to see that smearing groups of people rather than the principle which you described as speaking without love was inappropriate.
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What I saw in that piece was a proud man, unable to see any beam in his own eye, but who saw a great mote in someone else’s eye. Why did he feel Fr L was attacking his site? If his site meets the terms of the criticism, could he not have accepted it as ‘tough love’ – or does ‘tough love’ only wrk when conservative Christians chastise those who do not agree with them? This is what confuse me. I was always taight that if you dish it out you should accept in back, but Matt seems to take offence, even when he not named, and can’t accept any criticism of what? The positions outlined by Fr L deserve critiquing. If they are not Matt’s position, what’s his beef, and if they are, he might try arguing and not abusing.
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Fr. L left no room for and has no intention of even reading an argument . . . you still do not get it . . . though it is as plain as day. Besides, he did not present an argument. He produced his own 10 commandments written in stone; precepts for the ages, indisputable truths. If you don’t see it, you don’t.
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I se it, and I see he knows what he did. I see that neither you nor Matt see what he did.
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No we see it well . . . we don’t pander to him because he is a good man and teaches orthodoxy. When he is wrong, even he deserves criticism.
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As does Matt – whom you cannot see is equally wrong. That’s my beef. It is tough love when a conservative criticises a liberal, and whine time when a liberal does it to a conservative; looks odd to those of us who are neither.
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This is not a battle between a conservative and a liberal, dear friend. It is between two orthodox Catholics . . . and one smeared a great many of these orthodox Cathoics along with some who could have been maligned or their ideas maligned in a charitable way. Fr. Longenecker is not infallible in his assessment of traditionalism . Its a complicated subject and there are as many variants as there are people who consider themselves good, orthodox, traditional Catholics. Why he wants to to stir them up I don’t know. Had he dealt with specific facts and refuted them with his own facts then he would have been applauded or challenged in a debate. As it is, he tarred the whole lot and refuses to entertain any questions or criticism . . . claiming that any criticism is proof that he is right in his assessment. I don’t buy it. It is a higly manipulative form of argumentation and it reads like a screed.
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The way I read it Fr L specifically said he was not talking about traditionalists, he was talking about Catholics who adopted Protestant strategies of reasoning – not surprising many converts who were Protestants would do that – he does it himself.
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Yes he did say that but made it clear that the one’s he is speaking of holding to one document over another etc. The implied message being that all documents are of equal weight and there were other mentions as well. Just an example. It was clear that he lumped anyone who did not, or could not, somehow square departure from the teaching of the faith is wrong. Yet we are hearing, on a daily basis, bishops saying the opposite of other bishops etc. He is far too simplistic even in an overall generalized analysis. And not a word about Catholic priests, bishops etc who have adopted Protestant practices or are now saying exactly the opposite of what was once held by every Catholic.
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Well, it could be that the Pope and many of your Cardinals and bishops are wrong totally, or it could be that they are not wrong totally, or it could be that you are not reading them aright – but no, in this version of dialogue, all right is with you and all wrong with your Pope. If this is Roman Catholicism, I am very glad I never got involved. It feels like a political party.
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I rather suspect Fr has enough respect for his audience to believe they can recognize them all by themselves and act accordingly. It’s a fools errand to attempt to exhaustively the numbers of sites that operate this way.
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That is the point NEO . . . he has shown no respect for his audience. I like Fr. Longenecker and use him to defend many of the positions that I argue here. Yet, by the way he generally smears an unknown group he has wittingly or unwittingly grouped a huge number of people into his attack . . . never arguing against a position that they put forward . . . just a group which includes many people who are part of his audience. Michael Matt was part of his audience as well. Speaking of love, it is those like Matt that has always spoken of good orthodox Catholics, such as Longenecker, in the best terms and has repeatedly asked for all good Catholics to take up voice against this relativism. We are all just plain old Catholics. We don’t need to employ these leftist tactics and use of the emotional words to describe one another. We either defend the Faith out of love or we hide our heads in the sand. If some go overboard then help them specifically see where they did . . . don’t denounce all those who are brave enough to step into this battle against the Modernists.
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I agree – this fellow Fr. Longnecker, by dismissing ‘Protestant Fundamentalists’ as ‘hate-mongers’ shows that he is a sectarian bigot.
The Free Presbyterians are a great bunch. They are so good that they even banned the Lord Chancellor from communion. You’ll get the idea here:
http://www.fpchurch.org.uk/about-us/what-we-stand-for/
The last statement on this page is the most important:
Maintenance of Scriptural distinctions between male and female in roles and appearance, including clothing, hair length, and (in public worship) head coverings.
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For sure no one has ever mistaken me for a man 🙂 xx
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Yeah, good brother Longnecker is a hater and a bigot. He shouldn’t have outta criticized the protestants.
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You are absolutely right. Churches today can get so focused on rules that the unity of Christ is discarded with the trash. Also, as you mention, a focus on rules misses the love, grace and mercy of Christ. This was the stumbling stone to the Jews. The same mentality we find with the teachers of the Law and the Pharisees who bring an adulterous woman to Christ for stoning for breaking the Law. We don’t find Jesus encouraging the teachers of the Law and the Pharisees to carry out the penalty of the Law. Instead, He loves and has compassion on the woman and sends the teachers of the Law and the Pharisees away in their shame and folly. In my opinion, this same attitude is what has led to the decline of the Church’s influence in America. The Church is known for all of her rules and what she is against instead of the what she is for and the love of Christ. Consequently, the world perceives the Church as intolerant, hypocritical, and judgmental. No wonder scripture warns against a judgmental spirit.
Scripture says that we are to love one another as Christ loves us. So, what does Christ’s love truly look like? Christ loves us to the point of His death on the Cross. 1 John 4:7-21. He became flesh to serve sinful man, not to be served by man. Mark 10:45. He washed the feet of ordinary humans. He built relationships with tax collectors, adulterers, and other sinners. He healed the sick, lame and crippled. And He died for those who were not worthy of His blood. On the model of Christ, we are called to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. We are instructed to be openhanded and give to those in need.
When we see Christians being intolerant, hypocritical, judgmental, and the like, we are not witnessing Christ’s love. When Christians act in this manner, they become worthless (because they have lost their saltiness–Matthew 5:13). This loss of saltiness has greatly contributed to the diminishing influence of the Church in America. The Church is supposed to preserve the world (hence the salt analogy). When she loses her saltiness, the world decays. Are we not seeing this in the world and inside the Church? With the depraved political campaign, the angry rallies and voters, denominational turmoil, and declining church rosters?
Christians need to wake up fast. These sentiments are what drove me to post my recent Blog entry, What Kind of Christian are You?, a warning against arrogant denominationalism.
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I totally agree. I am waiting for someone to cite the passage about not a jot and tittle of the Law – which will underline your point.
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Obviously you don’t believe in laws, only suggestions.
As to the Church being known for its negative bits . . . I totally disagree. It is known and hated because it stands for virtues, objective truths rather than relativism. It stands for the Gospel of Life and the world hates us for it. Yes they are ‘negatives’ to the secular world but they are ‘positives’ in the world of religious values. DaddyBlitz seems to not favor religion at all: since the word ‘religion’ implies being bound to certain teachings. If we aren’t going to do that then what is the point of joining any religion or belief? Let’s all just become spiritual but not religious and join all our muddle-headed college kids in declaring ourselves NONES.
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But that is my point. We, of course, in our little world, know we are the repository of virtue and rightness and that is why we are hated. What if we are really hated because we come across as hateful and hating others?
Bound to certain teachings? What use is that if we have not love? St Paul offers the answer. He does not tell us ‘love’ is what some here turn it into.
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Nothing at all wrong in being for the virtues, but far too often we come across as hating the sinner instead of the sin, and its a fault shared by many in the institutional church as well, and not only in the pews.
But we need to promote the virtue not merely indulge in diatribes against the vices, we know the joys of Christianity, but the face we present is far too often judgemental and even hateful.
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That is not why we are hated (whatever coming across means). We come across as people with principles that often are at odds with this relativistic world of ours.
Who has no love? If you do not love God first then your love of your neighbor is simply the fomenting of false peace. Correction is part of that and why St. Paul did offer us answers: he did threw folks out of the Church for moral sins and confronted them head on. This is love as well . . . even as we know that God chastises those whom He loves. It is not rocket science and it surely isn’t a sappy daytime soap opera. It really isn’t that hard to understand . . . if you keep to the principles. If you keep breaking these and making excuses for them or neglecting them then it does get confusing.
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Are we really the best judges of why some people hate us? Are we not bound to say they hates us for the reasons you say? Is that anything more than confirmation bias? We think they hate us for this, and we’re not listening to why they say they hate us?
Paul’s definition of love is not the one you offer – it is long suffering and patient – it does not immediately say we are right, you are wrong and unless you go with our way you are going to hell. Of course we can say that, but to then think we are hated because we are Christ like seems a species of delusion. We’re hated because we look like we are hateful.
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The old ‘confirmation bias’ which you love to throw out there, Jess. No, it isn’t. Because if if was coming off too strong then we would hear it from the Christian churches loud and clear. What do we hear? Mostly silence on most things and if they do speak it is this same lovey dovey stuff. Any condemnations are reserved for social justice issues.
I might look hateful, and I’ll grant that, but there is not enough evidence in most people’s lives, including our leadership often, to confict them of being a Christian.
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Christ had rather a lot to say about helping the stranger at our gate, the poor, the downtrodden and the dispossessed, as does Catholic social teaching. I hear a great deal from some Catholic sites about issues like abortion, which I care about too, but when was the last time I saw some of those site talking about our duty to take in the millions of refugees fleeing Syria, or to ensurethe the poor and homeless on our streets were looked after properly, or that employers should pay a wage which allows families to live without the woman having to go out to work.
There is nothing Christian about fire-bombing abortion clinics, and there is nothing Christian about hateful comments about Muslims or Mexicans.
It seems sad that Christians see this as either/or. Christ’s bias to the poor was clear – the bias of our Churches in that direction is surely Christ like. Why is social justice a boo word. Do you think Jesus would approve of huge concentrations of wealth in a few places, and millions starving. I don’t.
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Has any civilization sent more food, clothing, money, medicine and help to those who are afflicted in this world? All I hear from you and the liberal socialists is how captitalism has made people poor . . . that is a bit of historical revisionism.
What is wrong with never forgetting the horror of our modern age: abortion? As to refugees fleeing Syria . . . they can be helped where they are and protected where they are if the politicians would not tell the the armies how to fight the enemy. Don’t confuse Catholic or other Christians from detesting a political crisis and laying the burden of that crisis on the shoulders of the common citizen.
And the poor on our streets? Really? Nobody, is on the streets unless they put themselves there. We have welfare, food stamps, government housing, healthcare etc. Those we see on the streets that are really in need are the mentally ill that were put there by our liberal politicians that made it almost impossible for a family or court to institutionalize these people. Most have been given drugs for their illness and quit taking them. Are you going to first force them to take their meds – or maybe you can put it in their food or alcohol or street drugs?
Are you also buying in to the myth of mean old companies who are not paying a living wage. If you are speaking of fast food franchises then you don’t understand the workforce they were helping; school kids and retirees who want to do something and make their retirement money go further. They weren’t supposed to be for folks with families. You can thank your feminist friends for the huge influx of workers which made the wages of this country stagnate; and now you push for immigrants and refugees to come and do the same. Where are we going to get the jobs for them I wonder. The rich aren’t paying their fair share I suppose? The companies should pay more in taxes perhaps; which is why they can’t create new products or jobs.
Who is talking about fire-bombing abortion clinics. We had one nut who did a few of these and hid out in the mountains of NC. Maybe you should step back and take a deep breath: it is not ‘hateful’ to want our immigration system to work as intended rather than have the laws ignored or the politicians put heavier burdens on a country that is 19 trillion dollars in debt and has mortgaged the work of our great grandchildren already. If you want global economic collapse to occur quickly then point your finger. If not, why don’t you take in a few Muslims or Mexicans into your home?
Social justice is a boo word, because it has become code for Saul Alinsky style social change and disruption. It is linked to the Cloward and Piven strategy to bankrupt the sytem by over-taxing the system. They hoped to end captitalism entirely and move it more toward socialist or communist models.
I don’t know that Christ cares about distribution of wealth Jess. He never called out the slave owner . . . only that he should treat his slave well.
I don’t even know how all this has anything to do with the Fr. L post anymore . . . it seems that you have simply set off a bunch of smoke screens instead. But I’m game to speak to these issues if you are. 🙂
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I can’t recall Jesus talking about immigration quotas? I don’t think there has been only one firebombing of an abortion clinic either.
I’m not sure where I said capitalism made people poor. If can point to figures which suggest that about 60 people have as much wealth as the bottom 50% in the world – if you think that in line with Catholic social teaching, I doubt Pope Pius X would agree.
And yes, that for many years the church failed to work out that slavery was wrong is a blot on its reputation, just as its failure to realise women were equal with men. In both cases it changed its position, and that is good – and shows that traditionalism is not always right.
Here there are lots of people who are on the street, and I don’t recall Our Lord saying ‘don’t help them if their behaviour put them there’ – which Bible is that in – the gospel according to Donald J Trump?
Where I have been until the last week we did indeed take in refugees, and I still help out in the soup kitchens and with some teaching for their children.
I cannot see how anyone can think America is communist or socialist. If it is wrong to say that the wealthy have a duty to help those without, then Our Lord must have been wrong, as that is his message. St James gets it spot on – true religion is taking care of the widow and the orphan. The rest follows. If your faith does not produce works, it is worthless. I try simply to do what faith prompts without judging people. If someone is homeless I don’t ask whether he put himself there before serving him a meal – I offer him the way to a shelter and food. If that makes me a communist, so, alas, be it.
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Are you surprised by that, Jess . . . don’t think there were immigration laws 2000 years ago. I didn’t say there was only 1 firebombing did I? I said I knew of 1 fellow that perpetrated a number of them. I asked if you knew of a Catholic involved – and how this smears the peaceful fundamentalists all over the country even if you found one. Catholic social teaching is not about what percent of people have what amount of money . . . where did you get that idea. It is our obligation to try to help others less fortunate than ourselves and we do it . . . sadly much of it is taken from taxes these days instead of direct help. I think a wealthy man who starts a business and hires people is doing more than our welfare though.
Slavery: a blot on Christ Himself I assume.
Women are not equal to men. If yo are saying if they can do the same work as well as man and that they work as many hours and are willing to be away from home on business related travel – yes, they deserve the same pay. There is a lot of individual variables . . . statistics will prove nothing without the individual circumstances behind each instance of unequal pay. How does that prove traditionalism wrong?
Then change the laws and get the government out of it since they are not doing a good job and wasting our money; not to mention taking our economy down at the same time.
Is Barack Obama a socialist? Did he get elected twice? He’ll deny what he is as will Hillary but at least Bernie Sanders is up front about it. What do you call redistribution of wealth in England? Over here we call that socialism or communism.
The wealthy do more for the poor than the government does . . . so where is the problem? True, folks like George Soros uses his money to mobilize the poor into an army of activists and voters for the agendas that he favors . . . but the non-liberal rich, what do they do? They create jobs, give more to charities than any people ever have etc. But bashing the rich is fashionable today. Glad to see you’re keeping up with fashion. We do care for the widows and orphans . . . who is filling your head with such nonsense?
Able bodied people should work according St. Paul: “Anyone unwilling to work should not eat.” I guess he was not merciful enough for you.
Systems that you are speaking of are here everywhere and in every Church . . . it does not make you special and no it doesn’t make you a communist. It is proving what I said. Nobody needs to be hungry or without shelter . . . there are places to go.
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This seems to me to support the line I am taking – is it wrong?
http://www.catholicsocialteaching.org.uk/themes/human-dignity/resources/encyclical-statements-poverty-2/
No slavery is a blot on us all, and was once justified by the fact the church did not condemn it – the church caught up with ideas of social justice and said it was not to be supported. One up for social justice I think – the same with equal rights for woman – which I don’t think the church did much about for a long time.
No Obama is nothing like a socialist – take that from someone who lives i a country which had socialism. When all your main industries are nationalised and your top tax rate 98% I will accept America has gone socialist – you are so far off that that is is almost absurd that anyone who has lived in a socialist country should be asked to accept Obama is one.
The rich who give their money away are to be admired – but that 60 or so people, they don’t, and a system which allow so much wealth to be so concentrated when millions starve is not, by any definition, just.
The father did not say to the prodigal, it is your fault you got into a mess, sort it out yourself. The older brother clearly thought that – which way is Christ’s?
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My hat is off to you for bringing up so many disparate subjects in one small combox. I cannot respond to each here. Maybe a series of posts will work out better.
We also had taxes for the rich that were at 95% . . . so join the club.
And please try to think about where the rich people keep their money when they are not using it to create jobs, wealth, beneficial products that have made our lives better. They do not keep it under a mattress or in their home vault. It is working capital that is invested in companies that produce products and jobs, or in banks that become liquid and can give loans to people to form new businesses or keep their farms going etc. I don’t how you seem to have come to the idea that the wealth of the world is fixed and that it is not expanding. How do you think we got the railroads and highways in this country originally? Or the steel industry or the oil industry? How many jobs have been created from these? How many people can now own a home? a car? an air conditioner? a refrigerator? . . . and on and on and on. People are much better off because men with more money than they can spend on themselves, spend it on businesses, new enterprises, investments and provide venture capital for those just starting out who have a good idea for a product.
People are not starving by the millions over here . . . maybe in your neck of the woods. Those in third world countries are usually socialist, tribal, totalitarian or simply exploited by some oligarchy. You want us to go kill all their leaders and force them to accept a better system of government? The poor people know we have one . . . and that’s why they will break every law imaginable to get here.
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I am not at all against capitalism or the good rich people do. But in the last couple of decades it is clear something has gone wrong. In this country social mobility is almost dead, the middle classes are increasingly squeezed, and wealth is concentrated too narrowly. I am not a economist so I don’t know what went wrong, but I know the political effects – and it seems to me much of the anger in both our countries comes from the feeling the system is broken.
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It’s simple. The companies and banks that failed were bailed out with the peoples money. Our governments are printing more money than you can imagine . . . far more than there are assets or man-hours in the entire world. By injecting this cash in the market and into the banks at near parity as a stimulous our economy is being held up artificially. There is no growth because the elites are simply robbing the market which largely is our quantum easing money (which will have to come from the people at some time). The people are not invested in the markets like they were as they do not trust it for good reason. The wealthy can accumalate stock and thus ownership of large corporations and then make or break a company by their buying and selling. They short their positions when the drive the market down and go long when they are driving the market up. It is a transfer for the ‘cheap money’ of the banks and financial institutions that that are amassing. Its a house of cards that will eventually fall and the only ones that will maintain wealth are those who have actual assets: land, food, water, homes, capital goods etc. These people do not care what happens to the country or the world if they can simply make their way through this before the people see the devastation that is in store for us. For when it happens, those people will be run out of town, jailed or worse for having manipulated what is for all intents and purposes monopoly money: and our posterity will be expected to pay for it. I doubt any of them will be willing to do so and we will have civil war on our hands or a complete failure of our society. Our economy is run by NPD elites and we are the good natured dupes who lend them our trust and keep them safe (we have been played) . . . for now. Fear for our children and fear for your old age. Dark times are truly coming.
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And those banks and companies – were they not part of the capitalist system? They were, so what went wrong? I agree with what you say, but this is what capitalism has become, and it is not going to change – why would those in charge change it – they are getting richer, we are getting poorer.
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Every human being is part of the capitalist system, dear? It is why people are breaking laws to come here and prosper. I told you what went wrong: the politicians with their bailouts and the Fed’s printing of money and their issuance of T-bills not worth the paper their printed on.
It will change when people start to understand more about what they are not being taught in their schools and get angry enough to clean house, burn the regulations that favor the elites over the common man and level the playing field. But even now . . . in our decline . . . people risk dying to come here. If socialism is so good they should stay where they are.
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And are the politicians not capitalists too? Nothing will change whilst men prefer politics to Christ.
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In the Caribbean the Anglicans did not preach the gospel to the slaves as the plantation owners who associated with the church could not square the ownership of a slave who might become a Christian.
The gospel was first preached to the slaves on the island of St. Thomas by two Moravian missionaries who were planning to sell themselves to a slave trader in order to get passage to the Islands and enable them to preach to the slaves. However the Queen of The Netherlands (I think) eventually paid their passage.
An inspiring film ‘First Fruits’ produced by the Moravians (available on Youtube) tells the story of this fist mission to these slaves. Moravian churches are still quite strong in the Caribbean. (Moravians share ministry in UK with the Anglican Church).
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Jessica – firstly, Christianity is all about living for Christ in a pagan world. If you belong to an ‘established’ church (such as the Anglican or the RCC) then you’re always going to find some things horribly compromised with the state and expedient politics.
The fact that ‘The Church’ did not condemn slavery is a solid illustration of something that was always completely clear to me; ‘The Church’, if it is an ‘established church’ must necessarily be anti-Christian, albeit containing a Christian witness.
I remember Holyrood Abbey Church in Edinburgh back in the 1980’s. I loved the ministry; I hated the fact that it was part of the Church of Scotland. I never got baptised there; I waited a few years until I was in a different town where I was baptised at the Baptist church. The ministry at that church was profoundly Christian, but I always had the impression that James Philip was a voice in the wilderness when it came to the Church of Scotland at large – and while he thought he was in the right place, I could never see it.
Secondly – you’re persisting with a grave error in your understanding here. People like Dave Smith are not berating repentant people such as the prodigal son after his return; they are berating people who insist on living in sin, while at the same time insist that they should be accepted by the church.
Suppose the prodigal son had insisted on riotous living while at the same time living in his father’s house. Suppose he hadn’t left home, but instead had insisted on heavy rock music blaring out of his ghetto blaster till all hours of the morning, had insisted on taking prostitutes back home, taking drugs and getting horribly drunk – all the time insisting on living in his father’s house and being accepted as part of the family. Suppose there was no sign of repentance. These are the people who get on Dave Smith’s wick; Fr Longnecker describes us as hypocrites if we disapprove of such people.
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I do not see Fr L insisting that people don’t repent. I see him mocking, unkindly, people who also unkindly mock others. I see nowhere in any of it the accents of Christ. It is like listening to episode interminable of the American culture wars.
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My wife and I visited a hospital to pray for a friend of my son. The next day my wife responded to a request from the man in the next bed to go and pray for him. I was unable to go with her and got a phone call from her. She said she felt the Lord wanted her to bring the man home to live with us. He was homeless, an alcoholic and with 67 criminal offences (so we were told) for disturbance while drunk. So he arrived at our home the conditions we set were no drink while with us and that each day we would pray for him and tell him a bit more about Jesus.
Either the first or second day a friend called on us that we had not seen for a few years. He was amazed to meet ‘J’ with us as he had tried to talk with him many times on the street. ‘J’ took this as a sign that God was really in on our encounter with one another.
Within a short time he and his girlfriend were converted and through a landlord friend we were able to obtain a flat for our new brother in Christ. We baptised them and they were married.
To have begun by berating him for his sin I think would have been unlikely to have brought the same results.
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Rob – you don’t berate someone in that position, because from what you said, it is clear that he was already well aware that he was in a ‘bad place’ and he wanted to get out of it. Your wife (after all) responded to his request.
Dave Smith, in his outrage at Fr Longnecker’s article, never once suggested that you might want to berate someone in that position. He takes exception to the fact that Fr Longnecker seems to oppose berating someone who insists on his right to come to church and be accepted into the ‘church community’, while at the same time insisting on his right to live a debauched life style. Fr Longnecker considers us to be hypocrites if we expect people to at least aspire to clean living.
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Yes, yes, Rob, you, at least, get what I am trying to say – thank goodness, I thought I had venetured into a Trump rally.
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NEO – My goodness man, how can you say that? The pastors and priests are teaching anything other than social justice these days. The Catholic Church did not even try to persuade the Irish or Italian nation about the moral imperatives being violated by their new SSM laws. How are we too harsh? I haven’t heard a harsh priest in decades. The worst they can say is that we can cite words from the Bible they don’t like or words from the Catechism they don’t like. Big deal. They never believed it anyway and likely never will.
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As to the Church being known for its negative bits . . . I totally disagree. It is known and hated because it stands for virtues, objective truths rather than relativism
I seriously doubt if the world hates the CC because of its “on paper” virtues. I think its the daily headlines that turn the world off of it.
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All Christianity has been been turned against in our times or haven’t you noticed? The world cannot stand certain passages in scripture and consider it hate speech.
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When youre rite youre rite. The bible is under attack. The world is getting ready to welcome its master, the Devil. Many prot churches have buckled under and accept gay marriage and what have you. Oh, by the way….ive seen many prot mega church preachers with the LaVey goatee. Im very sure of what they do off camera. Whats his name has one…the guy who wrote “Purpose Driven Life” I forgot his name. Jody Lambs hubby and co pastor has one. Good brother Corapi has one,…the poster boy of the CC (;-D
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I can cite it for you – because Jesus himself spoke these words and they appear in the gospel.
But unless you go down the ‘Barthian’ road – that ultimately all are saved; the difference is that Christians already know this, then by any criteria that you draw from Scripture, a whole bunch of people whom you like are headed for the eternal fire.
I find the ‘Barthian’ view more and more attractive – even though it is virtually impossible to defend it Scripturally, without junking large parts of Scripture which state that there is a Hell and that people do actually go there.
Question: would heaven be a more fun place with or without Keith Richards (of The Stones)? I get the impression that he has committed every sin in the book – and is proud of the fact.
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I dealt with this a bit ago in a series of posts on hell – and think there is a good argument to be made from Scripture that the churches have drawn the lines tightly for their own reasons.
There is more joy in heaven over one redeemed sinner – is there not? I don’t recall any statute of limitations on when one can repent – there was that thief chappie who left it a bit late but ended in paradise that same day; he cheers me up. He’s my patron saint 🙂
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Yes, the chappie went to paradise, not heaven. Heaven isn’t open for business rite now. Even though some think heaven is full of their heros manning the prayer lines. (;-D
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Jessica – as I seem to remember, not really. You simply argued that Hell wasn’t as bad as some people made it out to be, since it was eventually destroyed; the punishment wasn’t eternal in the sense that the condemned souls ceased to exist.
The ‘Barthian’ view would probably be that Keith Richards will end up playing his guitar in heaven.
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Which, on my view, would be the same ending.
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Jessica – then I’d strongly advise you to read Karl Barth’s short volume ‘Dogmatics in Outline’ if you haven’t already done so. It’s quite attractive. You might be able to reconcile it with Holy Scripture – I couldn’t.
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I read it a long time ago, but now have a bit more leisure to try again.
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I’m on the fence, I’m too much of a diplomat.
I agree with the notion that Pope Francis has done things that are praiseworthy. The Strict traditionalist; however, wish to give not an inch of praise. I also think though that if God commands/gives law then you follow it. Roman Catholic by extension believe God’s law is living and continuing to be defined within the Church. If I’m obligated to follow God’s law by extension also the Church and its doctrines.
Of course with that being said strict traditionalists and myself still get into debates about vernacular mass and other VII subjects.
At the end of day, they are still my brothers in Christ and I will stand by them against the modernist world.
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It is pointed that in the gospels Christ reserves His criticism for the self-righteous religious types. In His dealings with the out and out sinners He offers unconditional love. To the woman at the well He offers the inner peace and satisfaction of the water only He can give and to those weary of a life void of godliness He offers rest. His moral example and love speak abundantly for truth righteousness without the need to berate the sinner. Consequently they are drawn to the healing and life that He offers.
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Thank you Rob – someone gets it!
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I don’t think he does. There is a huge difference between the way that Jesus could speak and the way that anybody else can speak. Jesus induced repentance. The heart of the woman at the well, after talking to Jesus, was repentant.
I don’t think that Dave Smith gets bothered about sinners who are repentant; it’s the militant ‘what I’m doing is not at all sinful and you had better put up with it’ attitude that he hates.
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I must have missed the bit where Jesus congratulates those who berate sinners in the way many modern Christians do, is it next to the verses where he rebukes those who know the letter but not the spirit of the law?
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He tells the woman caught in adultery to ‘sin no more’.
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He does, but unless I missed it, he does not say ‘until you have repented I will not offer absolution’ Did I miss that – or did you?
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Oh – I see – the ‘go sin no more’ is an optional extra. He might just as well have said, ‘Would you be awfully nice and not sin any more – but if you really enjoy it, then it’s no big deal’. If she wants, when she gets to heaven she can hump with a different rock musician each evening – Keith Richards on Monday, Johnny Rotten on Tuesday, Sid Vicious on Wednesday, etc … they’ll all experience heavenly bliss, having a great time with the woman caught in adultery.
Actually, when Jesus issues a divine imperative, it is operational. When he said to the first disciples, ‘follow me’, they dropped everything and followed him. He didn’t say ‘Would you like to follow me?’ and they didn’t answer, ‘this is a hard decision; please give us until next Thursday to think about it’ – when Jesus issued the Divine Imperative ‘follow me’, they followed.
It seems to me that the divine imperative issued to the woman caught in adultery was of that nature.
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No, it matters, but you read into it what you wanted to read into it. He forgives her with no sign she repents. That does not fit what you would do or what you and the elder brother thinks should happen – but that Jesus fellow, he’s not you and he’s not thinking like that. It’s a shame you have to argue with him – because I am simply saying what he says. But heck, look where it got him.
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Jessica – so how do you understand this passage? What if (hypothetical conditional) the Divine Imperative does not have an effect and what if Romans 7 does not apply to her (in the sense that she does not want to do good; she is perfectly happy continuing in sin and she only has a problem with it if she gets caught)? What happens if she is not repentant? How do you understand it?
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I can only say that you and Dave should try reading what I wrote, and then tell me where I say there is no need for repentance? You bring this to the party, not me. My view is that here, and with the Prodigal, and with everything, Jesus begins with love – love for us draws from us love, which leads, with Grace, to repentance and amendment of life. He does not begin with berating people. Indeed, that seems to be one of the complaints of the Pharisees – that he consorts with sinners. Note, Jesus never replies, ‘you are wrong, they have all repented’.
This, for me, is the problem with your approach and most of the comments here. They seem to come from an aggressive insistence that you repent first. If all you know about Christianity is it is full of odd balls who talk and language you can’t understand, then they run – far and fast.
Talk, as Jesus did, of love, and you get an audience. I trust in the Spirit to move the heart – you, like so many others, seem to think this is a matter of the intellect first – it isn’t, our faith touches the heart first, and then we can, with the Grace of God, do wonders. But such faith seems not to be here.
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Jessica – believe it or not, I did read carefully what you wrote before I responded – and all I can conclude is that YOU enjoy starting a fight in an empty room; YOU enjoy getting the hatchet into people who basically agree with you (if what you say in this post is actually a true representation of what you believe).
YOU are the trouble maker, YOU are the one who is sowing the seeds of discord.
When you turn to the example of the prodigal, you quite deliberately miss the point. There isn’t anybody at all here who would advocate berating the prodigal when he returns to his father.
I suspect that you probably also missed the prayers of the father and the family (since they’re not explicitly stated in Scripture) which played a role in bringing the prodigal back. Yes – I admit we’re reading in that which is not explicitly stated when we consider these prayers.
I’ve concluded from the discussion, though, that YOU are the trouble maker here.
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Ah, speaking for God again – do remind us when he appointed you to this role. It is men like you who discredit the church you claim to serve. No one would join a church if you were their guide. Fortunately you speak for yourself a dying group of bigots. No doubt when you find liberal in heaven you will tell God where he got it wrong.
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I do relish the way you simply pigeon hole people who do not agree with you as ‘liberals’ – some of us think for ourselves, some have given up – and the sign of that last is you end up pigeon holing others.
My piece gave those rational factual objections – you put people off – Charles Clarke is as sympathetic a figure as you are going to find in British politics, and he finds the emphases people such as you put on certain things a sign of extremism and would exclude you from the political sphere. If that’s what a friendly voice thinks, well, Still, since you are spreading the faith so effectively, I am sure you don’t care to listen to anyone who thinks you aren’t. You are doing that, aren’t you??
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Did it though? Really. So what happened, if their work was built on rock, why has it crumbled – ah, don;t tell me, Vatican II, conspiracy theories – the Masons perhaps, who knows?
Or may be there is more to my view that your pride will acknowledge.
We go from where we are – your way is failing and will fail.
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Jesus spoke of nothing but doctrine, and spent all his time condemning those who failed to observe the Laws. I read it in the Bible with most of the verses left out – the one you use to convince yourself you made the right choice – when your heart says you were a fool.
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Dogma and doctrine are not the same – just as what Jesus said and what you insist he said aren’t the same.
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A priest has no idea either unless he has the gifts of a Padre Pio. Christ can read souls – yes or no? A priest usually can’t. The prodigal son did meet the mercy of the father with a confession of his sins – yes or no? Do you think, since it was a parable about God the Father than He knew why the son returned and what was in his heart?
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I read what Luke write, and nowhere does he write what you write. The point you keep missing is the one I keep making – love comes first and all else will, with Grace, follow.
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Do recall what he said about those who knew the letter and not the spirit.
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You grieve the spirit constantly.
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Romans 7 applies to us all 🙂
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Quite right Jock and I have far more in common with you than I do with many a liberal, progressive modernist who waves a magical mercy wand over all things and all people looking for confirmation in who they are as unrepentant sinners. If there is no desire to change for love of God, themselve or their neighbor then all the Mercy we offer is cheap show. It is not love it is tolerance taken to an extreme which includes tolerance of sin itself. It is insidious.
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Indeed, spirituality without theology and law is chaos. Theology and law without our spirituality being built upon its foundation is an unfinished edifice.
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But as Paul says, theology and law without love are nothing.
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What do you tink builds the spiritual edifice, Jess? What did I say that contradicts love . . . the highest reaches of spirituality?
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I would say we start and end with love – which is long suffering and forgives all. I did not see in the comments about communism, Obama and the rest anything of that. I think the reason the Republicans are going to lose heavily in the Autumn is they are talking to each other and they are very angry. To anyone who is not an angry Republican that looks ridiculous and unpleasant. Hillary Clinto is deeply untrustworthy, but she is not spreading paranoia. She is not a socialist or a communist. The American obsession with this Alinsky fellow is, to most of us in Europe, just weird. No one in an real socialist country ever heard of him. It really does look, from here, that there is a deep vein of conspiracy theory paranoia in operation. To those outside of it is is deeply unattractive. But it is in the nature of such thinking that even losing yet another presidential election will not thcnage it.
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You’ve been more influenced by Alinsky than you know. He started so many affiliate organizations that they spread like wildfire all over Europe. His ideas are driving many things; socialism, marxism, open borders, church activism and politicization etc.
As I say – this is a very long and intricate subject. I could write for hours on some of this. I won’t bore you. I’ll just say; don’t oversimplify things . . . there is much more than simply meets the eye. Obama and the Clintons are up to their eyeballs in this stuff.
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Apart from the conspiracy theorists, has any serious political historian said so? I read so much that seems so far-fetched.
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Google Stephanie Block as she studied all the spin-offs from the IAF and ACORN etc. You may be able to find some of her stuff in PDF format online. It’s not conspiracy theorist stuff; it is merely the spread of bad ideology and methods for being an effective political activist that have naturally spawned into groups to fit into every aspect of our societies. They thrive and many new ones pop up and borrow from the old and introduce new stuff. So some are coordinated with one another but others, not so much. But did they help shape our society today? Yes.
Also Google the Delphi Technique which was widely used by the IAF and taught at the University of Chicago by the radicals there. It has probably been further refined by now but it is manipulative of whole groups of people. It goes back to the old Narcissistic Personality Disorder that seems so prevalent in our society and polotics.
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I shall – but we are watching John Wayne in ‘the quiet man’ this evening, and I am going to indulge in worship of Maureen O’Hara – I always see myself as Mary Kate 🙂 xx
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Good movie. John Wayne, a good Catholic man for years but only near his death had the will to convert.
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Well I don’t see how this dialogue is going to end up very well, because it looks like i’ve Got a Tiger by the Tail.
🙂 xx
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I don’t – but I think that in terms of talking to the great majority who have neither faith nor literacy in it, we get nowhere with the Matt and QV line. People not only switch off, they make hostile judgments about al Christians. Pope Francis gets it, too many of his followers don’t.
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Really. Is Matt running around yelling heresy? He is simply calling foul. Don’t worry, Fr. L will hit another homerun in future post as he always does. This time, he struck out and you don’t like it. You’re mad at the umpires.
Pope Francis that has spewed more venom than any Pope in history has got it right. Well as he attacks all the faithful Catholics and the teachings themselves I don’t think the followers of the Faith are incapable of understanding; they are not morons. We actually read the words and view his actions. Are we not to believe our ears or our eyes. I suppose if we do that we can remain fat, dumb and happy.
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Foul for what though? No one mentioned him – is it a guilty conscience makes him think he is meant?
I don’t get it. Criticising those who do not agree and labelling them liberals and communists is fine, but your Pope calling out those who do it is spewing venom. I was taught that what was sauce for the goose was sauce for the gander, and that if you couldn’t take it you shouldn’t dish it out 🙂 xx
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One think you need to know about Matt. He goes to bat for almost anyone whom he thinks has been maligned. He did think that his capitalization or ‘Remnant’ in the post was meant as personal attack. Wheter it was or not . . . the article still deserved a strong critique.
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It simply repelled me and I stopped reading. His mind is closed to any point of view but his own. Not uncommon with many men, but few women will read on. If he wants to hear his own voice, he can listen to the sound of one hand clapping as far as I am concerned 🙂
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You seem to have taken on an anti-men agenda as late. What is that all about?
Can you understand that if you are convicted in the truth of your faith you have made a decision that is irreconcilable with that which tries to undermine that truth. that is not closed-minded. That is conviction of Truth. I expect nothing more from those I disagree with here and their adherence to their faith. I expect it . . . I don’t know why you find that repulsive.
Jerry Matatics (before he fell into disrepute) visited Bob Jones University and had a very spirited debate . . . for he used to be evangelical himself. They both expected the other to hold fast to what had become the Truth that guided their faith. If you aren’t sure of faith . . . you have no place in dialogue and argument with people of other faiths . . . or within the same faith.
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I am sure of my faith. I am not sure what is going on when Bosco and QV agree – but it can’t be healthy.
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yES qUIAV THE great, DONT LET THESE Koran KISSING HERETICS GET AWAY WITH THEIR Heresies. (;-D
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were I Qv it would worry me that you supported him. Actually, scrub that, were I QV I’d be calling you a heretic too. But then I am not and recognise you both as brothers in Christ. Does QV do as much to you – ask him?
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