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When they marry Christ, nuns wear a form of wedding dress. It marks them as being apart. Priests, too, wear garments that set them apart. It is a sign. Does it matter? In my own church recently there has been a move to dispense with the canons about clerical dress. Are we not to mark out any territory for what is holy? We see in Scripture that these things are taken seriously, and yet, it seems we think we somehow know better. Time was when if we went to church we dressed up. When I was a little girl my father, who did not go to church but would take me and wait there until it was over, would make sure I wore my best dress, and everyone else was in their ‘Sunday best’. This was a lesser form of wearing special dress to show one was consecrated to Christ, but it came of the same mind-set.
We have lost this I think. To point this out is to be called a Pharisee and to be accused of caring more about surface appearance than anything else. Yet, these same people who say that, if invited to a formal dinner by their boss would not turn up in shorts and tee-shirt. If they were invited to meet the US President or the Queen, I doubt they would not think of getting new, smart clothes. Are they ‘pharisees’ then, or are they simply being respectful? Do we not think we should be respectful to God?
I like the practice in the Orthodox and Traditional Catholic traditions of women wearing a mantilla. I usually wear a veil or a hat to church. It seems to me respectful, and scriptural – St Paul recommends it in 1 Corinthians 11:5-6, 13-16. Sometimes I want to go further, but my one attempt to do so, when I was about 15, was not a roaring success – I suppose going round in my first communion dress for the whole of Sunday was probably a bit much. It took about a month of stares every Sunday for me to revert to something a bit less conspicuous. I understood what I was doing, it was a little act of consecration, but I doubt many in our village got that – it was just ‘old Hoff’s girl’ going ‘through a phase”. Maybe I should have been braver? But at least it was an attempt to say to God that on Sunday, his special day, I was devoting myself to him in a special way.
I agree with our own orthodoxgirl99 when she writes:
So why do I veil? Well certainly not to make any kind of fashion statement as veiling today is probably considered completely โuncoolโ. I veil because I am in the presence of Almighty God, my Creator, my source of Life and my soulโs delight. I veil as an external manifestation of my belief that Christ is truly present in the Eucharist and I wish to show love, reverence and humility in his Holy presence. I veil because like the Angels I feel I should cover myself in the presence of the Holy One. I veil because I love Our Lord. I veil simply because I feel it matters.
I still sometimes wish I had persevered with the courage to wear that communion dress every Sunday – but I suppose wandering round in a wedding dress every Sunday might be a bit much – although it would be better than turning up in shorts and halter-neck tops – which seems not too much for too many.
Very nice Jess. Sadly, I might not be around here much longer to comment:
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Oh dear, was my first thought, then I followed the link and am still hiccoughing with laughter ๐ xx
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Good. I thought we all needed a little laugh for the weekend. ๐ xx
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I don’t see a link! I need a laugh after this shock!
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I embedded a video Grandpa. Is this any better? https://www.facebook.com/CarbonTV/videos/403997546475360/
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Yes thank you, now I see it, and you are right, it made me laugh! ๐
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It was excellent fun – it was satire wasn’t it? Hard to tell at the moment ๐ xx
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That’s the thing, Jess. There may be more truth to it than we care to admit; what with all of Obama’s execuative orders and all. ๐ xx
I hope they ship me south . . . I hate the cold.
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I feel for satirists – so hard to distinguish from the truth ๐
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Very true . . . nothing is more outlandish and satirical than our present reality. ๐ xx
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Yes, sometimes if catch the news I wonder if it is April Fools’ day!
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Everyday is April Fools’ day in America.
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I have read that the reason women cover their heads in church is not to do with ‘male dominance’ or ‘patriarchy’ but out of a sense of reverence and respect for their role as the bearers of life. This makes sense to me. Our society has fallen for the worst kind of feminist dogma and ‘uni-sex’. Covering one’s head with a mantilla or scarf is a delicate and symbolic way of stating that God gave us a glorious destiny as women – and that all women are called to mothers, whether physical or spiritual. We are or should be the nurturers of life – as Our Lady nurtured her Son. To be honest, I am also not keen to see women wearing trousers in church – especially when they are Readers.
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I am SO with you on all this Francis. As I said to someone recently when they said that we should be equal with men – ‘why aim so low’ ๐ xx
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I’ve heard some really beautiful things said of the practice of veiling over the years. One is this: That which is holy is always veiled.
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I veil. I didn’t when I was a baby Catholic. I wasn’t presented with any living examples in RCIA, including the Sister who was the DRE there. I was given the impression it got done away with in some official capacity along with a few other things that weren’t actually brought up in class but rather at the smoke break we got in between classes, when someone mentioned/asked why sister had no habit. None of the women I saw at daily Mass (I went daily for nearly a year before I was received into the Church and for a while after too) were veiled although there was a woman who showed up from time to time in a chapel veil, the little round ones that rest atop a spun sugar hair-do. Then as I ventured about the other parishes and chapels, I began to run into women who did veil.
One day I asked a woman about her reasons and she gave me a little yellow booklet on it. I read it and it made sense. Good sense. I was also a little upset that my mind hand basically been made up for me on the issue by the lack of coverage of it in RCIA along with a few other options that I never knew I had (Communion in the hand vs on the tongue, the reverent bow vs the genuflection, etc.) I prayed about it and asked God for the courage to strike out into the deep and I bought some mantillas and got them blessed and that was that.
I’ve had a few rude things said to me over the years and there is a whole bunch of nastiness among some Catholic women over this, but I’ve grown used to it. Just about every time you bring it up to discuss it with other Catholic women, if you veil or defend the practice of veiling for Mass, then you are going to get attacked. It grows hot very quickly and divides the room rapidly. Some day the practice will return and all of this will be part of our history. In the meantime, if a gal asks me should she veil, I offer the same types of handouts that were given me and tell her to make up her own mind about it. I also mention that should she decide that she should cover her head for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass or simply when in Church, she will be taking the Cross up in some ways.
God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Well done you – I have always worn a veil, which gets me funny looks from time to time, but then I am seriously pondering the wedding dress idea – just to see what the reaction would be ๐
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You do notice the wisdom of the men here by not chiming in don’t you? The key to a long and successful marriage is not to tell your wife or daughter what they should or should not be wearing. Whatever they wear, simply tell them that they look great. ๐
This is wisdom!
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Its not the dress that makes you look fat
Its the fat that makes you look fat
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This is maybe the reason you are not married Bosco. Even if it is true . . . best be mum about it.
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^ This!! Key to a happy life! ๐ xx
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Indeed so . . . I have the battle scars to remind me not to make the same mistakes twice. Of course another key to a happy life was immortalized in song: make an ugly woman your wife. ๐
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Yeah, but I know you didn’t follow that advice!. ๐
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And if any of us did, we will be the last ones to admit it. ๐
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Glad you agree kind sir ๐ xx
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Once foolish, twice wise, Ma’am! ๐ xx
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Another wise saying – this is clearly the place to meet wise men – shame Bosco hasn’t learned ๐ xx
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Bit of a flatterer, you are Ma’am, and it very becoming in you! He’d be well advised to learn from his elders, but it’s not likely! ๐ xx
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I know some charming gentlemen whose good manners and exquisite courtesy it is my honour and privilege to acknowledge ๐ xx
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Of course, you know that we treat others as we are treated, which is as it should be. ๐ xx
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Yay ๐ xx
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๐ xx Yay! indeed!
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It is indeed, and exactly what I would have expected from such a distinguished group of gentlemen ๐ xx
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Most of us have been around the block more than once. ๐
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I feel positively inexperienced – hey, wait, I am ๐ xx
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God does not care what you wear.
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It seems to me from Scripture God cares quite a bit.
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Says the man in a clown outfit.
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LOL! ๐ xx
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Take one minute to think……..times up. Just so happens I know god personally. That is probably why im on moderation and groundswell to be banned. Adam and Eve were naked. That is how god placed us here. He didn’t care about clothes. The people now who don’t know god care about clothes
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If you can find any reference, Bosco, to God saying turn up to the Temple in anything you like, you’ll be onto something ๐ xx
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Well, we all know that we are to hide our nakedness. Now that man is fallen. God said to Adam and Eve…Who told thee that thou are naked? Naked is how we were placed here and there was no problem. Now that we are carnal, we have to hide our bodies. The pure original plan was us being naked. So, if one wants to wear nice things when going to church, that’s nice. We have to wear something, so it might as well be nice. The small group that I attend, we wear what ever. The last pastor wore t shirt and genes a lot. The new pastor Steve wears button up shirts. Nobody really cares/\.
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Are you saying if you were invited to the White House to meet the President you would turn up looking scruffy?
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Chances are I would look scrufy. I don’t care how I look, unless im going on a date with a hunny bunny
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Yes, do put on your finest clown outfit if you ever do get a date. Don’t forget to wear the floppiest shoes in your closet as well.
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Isn’t God a hotter date ๐ xx
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I come from a Protestant background, dressing up or wearing veils / head coverings was never required of the women in my denomination in my life-time. There has been, however, a resurgence and even a movement based solely on 1 Corinthians 11 and bringing back women’s veils / head coverings in accordance with the principle of women’s submission and subordination to male headship. This worries me greatly. I don’t mind so much if some women chose to veil / wear head coverings for the sake of their own spirituality. I do mind if women turn it into a mark of maturity or a badge of enhanced spirituality and use peer pressure to try to require it of others. The language of it just sounds as if women are told as if they have two masters – their husbands/fathers and Jesus/God. I know that it’s different in Catholicism, but I just hope that we don’t classify veiling/head covering women as spiritually superior to those whose faith is as such they feel they don’t need them because Christ is the only covering that is needed for all of us.
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Then you are young, lucky you. When I was young the phrase “Sunday, go to meeting clothes” had real meaning. And no proper woman would have gone to church without a hat, given that in Protestantism, veil and mantilla have been at best rare, and mostly nonexistent, with the exception of weddings. Leavings of that are common, the queen, formal funerals, you have to merely be sensitive to them.
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I remember my aunt telling me about my great grandmother being a real lady, who never went anywhere without a hat and white gloves and always wore dresses. Back in her day, we were a hat culture, where even men would wear hats to church, just not inside them. Since then, each generation has just gotten less and less formal. Hat culture just isn’t the norm like it used to be: http://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2012/05/04/152011840/who-killed-mens-hats-think-of-a-three-letter-word-beginning-with-i If women are to bring back veiling / head covering, then I think that there ought to be room for men’s hats being brought back so that they aren’t left out, but can obey this verse just the other way round.
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I’m entirely with you. My daddy always used to wear a hat, and I do like a man in a hat ๐ x
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I suppose it depends on the hat. I remember my daughter saying to me (some thirty years ago) that if I went to collect her from school, “Please don’t wear THAT hat!” That hat was my multi-patched Irish Tweed fishing hat. The same hat now serves me well on the donkey field and the donkeys are not embarrassed by it quite as much as my daughter apparently was.
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Donkeys are much more forgiving than daughters – otherwise, the two species have much in common ๐ xx
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No argument from me, but then I wear a hat most everyday, like most men who work outside in these parts. And yes, it was made by Stetson, if you were wondering! ๐
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Like the veil and the mantilla, men’s hats should come back. Here’s a bit more on them:
http://www.artofmanliness.com/2008/03/01/bringing-back-the-hat/
Other articles there as well.
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I hope no one would – though some do. I am an Anglican, but from the Anglo-Catholic tradition, hence my veiling. I think it depends what one means by submission and male superiority. It seems clear that the man is the head of the household. But as Peter says, the man is to love and honour his wife, and if he does that, then there is no harm in the wife acknowledging him as head of the house. I think the problem here is that we have gotten a bit messed up here, first by some men not heeding what Peter says, and then, latterly, by some secularist feminists screaming blue murder over it. A happy medium shouldn’t be impossible – but then as an Anglican, I guess I would say that ๐
Thank you for your interesting comment.
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I understand that the teaching works fairly well for married women, but single women are often still encouraged to take up the practice in agreement with the principle even if they have no husband to submit to. I think some can get so zealous for the tradition that they fail to put themselves into the shoes of others who haven’t been as lucky as they are and can come across as legalistic in that way. We need to remember to be compassionate and gracious. If we can do that, then whether we do or don’t wear veils or head coverings, we won’t go wrong.
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I think we need to avoid all over zealous stuff here – as a single woman myself, I am happy to wear the veil as a sign of submission to God ๐
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She does have a husband though. Just a spiritual husband.
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I’ve never heard it put quite that way before, but that gets a little worrying when you wonder whether or not single men have a spiritual wife rooted in God’s femininity (the source of Eve’s womanhood.)
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No. In God, gender is tanscended. Men transcend into the feminine. I consider Jesus my own husband as well.
This is more better experienced in the liturgy where the priest not only presents Christ to the Church but also presents the Church to Christ.
Here is a post of a brief essay of Nonna Verna Harrison’s I commented on about this issue.
https://newenglandsun.wordpress.com/2015/01/09/nonna-verna-harrison-on-the-ordination-of-women-in-the-orthodox-church/
I think she also has a work on theological anthropology that I should try and see if I can dig into :).
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Ahh, the youth treads in where even the angels fear to tread. I am also assuming by your profile that you are one of the ‘nones’ that are spoken about.
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I’m sort of a none, while I do prefer non-denominationalism, the non-denominational churches in this region all broke away from conservative Southern Baptist churches to form even more conservative independent churches, complete with legalistic codes for behavior modification and wardrobe requirements for the sake of modesty. Meaning that women must cover themselves with long skirts and long sleeves so as not to tempt the men who are incapable of controlling their own lusts who can wear whatever they want. Since they don’t believe in veiling, they often require women to grow out their hair instead. None of that seemed Christ-like to me, so I stick to the tenants of non-denominationalism (to be responsible for what I believe, to not sign or swear to obey membership contracts, to not sign or swear to obey church creeds / belief statements without questioning them thoroughly) as I attend a Methodist church. I just refuse to sign up for membership anywhere ever again because they can be used against people and I don’t want that happening to me.
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As a relatively young woman (still – early 30s) it has never occurred to me to go to Church showing my legs, or dressed as though I were going to the beach of a barbeque. I dress as though it was a special occasion, and it is ๐ As for men, it is in part our job to help them understand how to control their lusts – and we don’t do that by putting on a show.
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I’m off and on on this issue Jess. While I know that how I dress shows respect, some mornings I’m not up for it. How I dress for daily Mass depends on how I plan to spend my day. I draw the line on gym day and my gym stuff has its own bag and only comes out at the gym. Take for instance this morning. It is currently 5 degrees out with a wind chill of 10 below. I’m walking to Church for Sunday Mass shortly and wearing any kind of dress is pretty much an Act of Lunacy! I will be dressed for the weather and fortunately I don’t feel looked down on by anyone including God for it. Thanks for the topic. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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I always think that weather is what warm tights and thick skirts were made for ๐
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Jess, better than you have tried for years to get me into a dress. Only rarely. But if you paid me something like $100.00 each time, I might be persuaded…………………………….No one has ever taken up my offer yet……………………………………….I even wore my pants living in the Convent. So, about those tights. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Such a shame. I prefer something feminine ๐
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I think the veil is BEAUTIFUL!
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So glad you do – I can’t understand why more women don’t try it – I never saw a woman who looked bad in one – either ๐
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In the 1980s the Anglican Franciscan sisters of the Community of St Francis (CSF) decided in their annual chapter to make the nun’s veil “optional”. The Anglican Franciscan brothers of the Society of St Francis shared many of the same progressive aspirations as the sisters but there were a few conservative black sheep, including Brother Raphael who used any opportunity to make a stand for traditional values.
One day he arrived for Evening Prayer at Hillfield Friary wearing a sister’s veil on his head, in addition to his normal Franciscan habit, and took his place in choir. All eyes were upon him and the Guardian glared at him in complete horror.
“What is that you are wearing?”
Brother Raphael looked innocently up from setting the page markers in his SSF prayer book and spoke a very measured reply.
“I understand the veil is now optional.”
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LOL – love that ๐ xx
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My son has strong views on this. I dressed him for dinner and he didn’t seem to like it very much.
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You gotta teach that lad of yours to wear a tie. If he does not know how to tie a tie, there is no shame in a man asking for help on this.
I’ve never had an occasion which has necessitated me wearing a tie though I have worn a tie on my first day to a Byzantine Catholic liturgy. And a nice jacket and dress-pants and a dress-shirt. I realized though this was slightly over-dressed compared to what other people wear so I switched to business casual (slacks and a polo).
But I tell you, on my first day to a much more formal church like that, I was rather glad I was actually over-dressed than under-dressed.
I had a job interview last year for a seasonal job which I apparently got but wasn’t able to do because my family went on vacation (which means I should apply back to that job). Told me never to worry about being over-dressed. I was kind of over-dressed for the interview. He wore a tie and a nice shirt the first time I saw him so I figured I’d follow suit for this interview and then he dressed down to a polo!
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Yes – at 20 hours old, a tie was most definitely out of the question. A nice clean nappy and clothes was the best I could get away with. When he’s older I’ll insist on the tie.
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They don’t at that age – hope all is well? ๐ xx
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Yes – all is well here. Many thanks, Jessica.
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So happy for you both – and the little one ๐ xx
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I take it then that you now have a happy, healthy baby boy? Congratulations, Jock and hope mom and baby are doing well. Are you getting any sleep?
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Thanks! Yes. both mum and baby healthy; no – sleep is impossible.
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Congratulations to you all, Jock, what wonderful news ๐ xxx
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I feel for you . . . been there, done that. ๐
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Congratulations on the new baby Jock! Yippie. What a nice surprise. Lovely. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Thanks, Ginny!
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Congrats good brother. Im glad your child will be brought up Christian.
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I must say I am very fond of the veiling practice. It shows great reverence, and in addition to its significance in the presence of God, I actually think it can enhance the attractiveness of a woman, adding a layer of mystery. This is, I believe, why Indian female fashion (at least in pre-Modern centuries) was the way it was.
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