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One of the things which emerged from the reactions to my post here yesterday was the dissatisfaction which many feel with their local church. From the descriptions offered the last thing some folk find there is what should be there – a Christian community. Maybe it has always been so? But I am surprised, all the same, because it always seems to me that for a church to become a community there needs to be something more than a once a week get together at which we worship God and then shove off as fast as we can get out of the place. I have seen that at some bigger churches I have been too, and it baffles me. Maybe it comes from folk feeling that going to church is an ‘obligation’? If you feel that, why go? Is it some kind of left-over from the days when the neighbours would look askance, or Fr O’Fiery would give you a black mark for a ‘mortal sin’?
Bosco speaks for himself, but I have a feeling it is this sort of thing he’s getting at when he embarks on his trite hackneyed comments about ‘costumed holymen’. I recall one fellow who came to us after hearing us preach in the market place on a Saturday asking ‘do I have to come every week’? I asked why he asked the question. He thought a moment and said ‘what if I don’t feel like coming’? I asked in return what he would do instead? “Sleep in and then watch telly”, was the answer. My response was that it was up to him to decide which way he wanted to spend his Sunday morning, and to ask how he’d manage at the Bible classes in mid week without listening to the sermon. He looked a bit surprised, asking whether he had to go to that too? My response was the same: ‘what else would you be doing?” His response was “watch telly”. It was, I said, up to him whether he wanted a drive by shooting kind of relationship with us, or a proper one, and given his own considerable talents with a frying pan, we’d rather hoped he might come to the Saturday morning pre preaching breakfast. He looked and asked: “Would you like me to?” I said as long as he didn’t burn the sausages – he laughed, came, and has been an ever-present ever since. And he doesn’t burn the sausages either! The whole episode was a reminder, which we’ve always heeded, that we need to be more than just a congregation which meets twice on a Sunday.
It is not, after all, as though there is nothing to do the rest of the week. Some of us meet up to help with the food bank, others are still helping locally where people are barely recovering from the recent floods. Where, as was the case recently, one of our congregation lost her job and had problems with the benefits system, we made sure we were there to help – we weren’t having one of our own going to a food bank. When Mrs S was not well last year, there were always folk popping in to see how she was – and the odd cake, casserole and ‘little treat for pudding’ seemed to be part of the visit; they had not forgotten me in remembering her. That’s how good families work, and our little community is just that. We know each other well, we socialise outside of church, and inside church. If one is in need, we all do what we can.
That, for me, at least, is how the Spirit moves us. We can all get het up about styles of worship, we can all get cross about certain opinions, and we can all become personally offended by someone else’s remarks, but if the Spirit moves in us, none of that matters. Paul’s letters to the Galatians and the Corinthians speak as loudly to us as they did to their original recipients – which is why the church adopted them as scripture and why we study them to this day. They are calls to action, and to be a Christian is to be active in Christ’s name. We pray, as he did, we listen to preaching, as he preached, but we spend no time worrying about this or that liturgy, this or that vestment, this or that rubric – simply because he spent no time doing any of that. It is a waste of time and spirit when there are the poor to feed, the distressed to be comforted, the widow and the orphan to care for. I think if more churches concentrated on these things, they would be more Christ-like.
We are a community, or we are nothing. Christians do not exist in some splendid isolation worrying about the state of their souls, or indeed, those of others – we work as we pray – together. This means we don’t watch much telly, and that we spend our leisure time in his service – but what else was it given for?
I must agree. A community of saints is really how it works.
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And I disagree . . . A community of sinners who are being led to become more and more saintly is how it works.
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Well, that’s true also. Seeing as how we are all sinners. But good brother Servus, our gatherings shouldn’t have graven images and people bowing befor them.
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What he means Dave is what Paul meant when he called the community at Corinth saints. We are all saints, as well as sinners 🙂
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I’m never sure what he means, Geoffrey . . . after all he is a saved person and never tires of telling us that he is in a group of saved persons . . . so I suppose no sinners in that lot. 🙂
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Well, you should agree (on this one). We are sinners, but if we have ‘died to sin’ in the sense that Paul means in Romans 6v2, then we are also saints. The ‘communion of saints’ which we profess to believe has two aspects – the horizontal aspect – communion with the other Christians here with us at the same time and the vertical aspect – communion with God through Jesus Christ.
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Absolutely, Jock and as said before I would that every Christian parish was brought to that point where all have ‘died to sin.’ Have you found one yet? There are always those who have not yet been Baptised, those under instruction and those who have fallen from grace. But praise be to God if they keep at it and the Church is doing its job we bear fruit out of this mixture and hopefully by the time we reach our deathbeds have become new creations in Christ. There are many who want to put on the new man but have yet effected it any substantial way.
Now in the way you speak of the ‘communion of saints’ I totally agree from the supernatural aspect of what the Church is and our association with it. We are all being groomed by the Groom as the Bride of Christ and we all pray that we are there at that banquet and wearing the proper garments for the occasion.
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Dave – who was Paul writing to, in your opinion, when he said ‘we have died to sin’? For it is the readers whom he includes in his ‘we’. He isn’t saying ‘we, the elite group writing the epistle have died to sin, unlike you degenerates who are reading the epistle’.
In answer to your question: yes, I have seen it. It helps if we have to sit through a 40 minute sermon where The Word is proclaimed. Those who have not ‘died to sin’ don’t like that and tend to leave.
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We have more that are there in body but not spirit. I would that they can say that they have died to sin. I would reming you that the congregation Paul taught were risking their very lives to even hear him preach. That is whole different community than what we normally find in our churches today.
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Dave – my sympathies are with you concerning your church situation. From what you say, there seem to be many who go to your church who are not ‘Christian’ in any sense meant by the apostles and authors of New Testament scripture.
It also seems that those who are not Christian in your church are dragging everything down to their own level, ensuring that they can go to church without being challenged by The Word.
Look for the Christians in your church. They are the ones who are reading their Scripture and who feel that Paul includes them when he writes ‘we’. These people are part of the Communion of Saints.
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When I look at the world of today, Jock, I am not merely limiting this to any denomination. It is in the prosecuted Christians who are willing to die for their faith that we see the zeal and full belief as Paul witnessed . . . not in the comfortable churches that most in the West are familiar with. Of course, there are always those who graduate to such faith but they are everywhere from the cold to the hot and everywhere between. I don’t think that is merely my observance . . . it seems you have voiced the same observance in parishes where you did not want to attend. It just being realistic. Times change and we are living (in the West) in a time where evil is having its hour. Christ will win the day eventually but we shall suffer once again: it is the winnowing of the wheat from the chaff.
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…. it all went down hill when Constantine endorsed Christianity.
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It went down hill when Christianity embraced Constantine – the difference matters.
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Yes – a very good point.
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Well that might be a knee jerk response, Jock. I see it like this. Today our decisions are so mundane that is almost rediculous in comparison with our early fathers. We don’t give great thanks for every morsel of food or for escaping a plague, a flood. We aren’t constantly battling to stay alive. These early communities were so alive and so in tune with what life is like . . . they saw the death and experienced the hardships and were willing to do what it took to come to a new freedom from this constant battle in the world. They understood evil. And they understood good. My decision might be whether to go to McDonalds or Burger King for lunch; they wondered if they would live through the day. In that world . . . a conversion of heart was generally a radical conversion not some intellectual decision or peer pressure decision that had to be made. It was easier to see the simple fact of fallen man and a gracious God. We cover up stuff today and disguise good for evil and evil for good. Peoplea are confused . . . I doubt many were confused in Paul’s time.
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A good discussion my friends – and the older I get, the more convinced I am that those who are Christ’s exist everywhere – as do those who are imposters.
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They do Geoffrey and it is not entirely their fault when we are constantly told up is down and down is up.
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We have our own map and we know the narrow way 🙂
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We do, though it is more difficult to explain things to those who have been made comfortable in sin, immune from witnessing the agonies of death, secure in knowing they will have a full belly and a roof over their head. Life’s drama has been reduced from its bare essentials to its relative value in reference to their neighbor. They do not even see that they are equal at the moment of death . . . the great leveler of the playing field. We have reduced the Devil to a specter invented by the superstitious and God as a wishful dream for those who are haven’t the drive to make the earth more like the Heaven of our dreams. And having believed what the world has told them, what do they expect to get from Church that is relevant to their lives. Today, it seems that Social Justice is about all they can come up with.
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If God gave us justice, we’d all be in hell. Thank God for Grace.
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Amen to that . . . for the hour is getting darker and thanks be to God His Grace is still here in abundance and we have access to it.
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I don’t think we disagree so much here – except that Paul clearly wasn’t writing to those who are simply going along to church for the ride. He didn’t regard them as Christians, he didn’t even consider them potential Christians. They are not the people for whom his letters were intended, not when he wrote them and indeed not even in any other age.
I’m reminded of some helpful advice that Alex Ferguson (while he was manager for Aberdeen) gave to the manager of Dundee United, who were going through a bad spell. He advised him to get rid of all his players and get new ones instead. The Dundee United fellow had been trying to encourage his players and to get more out of them, but this strategy was simply a waste of time with these players
The way things are just now, in most churches, there is an awful lot of chaff and in many places they seem to have the whip hand. You know who they are – from what you describe, you go to a church on Sunday which has rather a lot of this. The important point is to recognise that this is not where the ‘Communion of Saints’ is coming from and that these are not the people to whom the Apostle Paul, or indeed any other of the New Testament writers were writing to.
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That’s true Jock. In fact, St. Paul would have run them out of his Churches. It is that lack of seriousness, this non-chalance and happy-go-lucky church of no obligations and an expectation of being soothed in Church rather than challenged as you like to call it. I wholehearted agree that we have rather too much of that and too much negotiating with those who want to go even further in these things; making church more fun to draw more pleasure seekers into the doors. It won’t help; it can only hurt.
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It is how it does work, and you’ll see in my latest that I am not without sympathy for what you say about costume holymen – that is not how it works.
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OT priests are Levites. There is no priest class in the NT. Man of god schools are scams. Those who bow to diploma priests will follow them into the ditch.
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Ephesians 4:11-13 doesn’t really support that statement, does it?
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Who, Bosco, do you think the apostles were? DO you think they died out, or did they continue? I agree it is wrong to mark apostles off as though they were some mystical person, but they exist and they are leaders of the community – we see Paul and Barnabas in Acts 11 showing us how to do it – hard work!
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Well, as I understand it, the word ‘apostle’ has several different meanings in the NT. As I understand it, though, in the narrow sense, an apostle had to be an eye-witness and Paul goes to great trouble declaring that he was, albeit in an ‘unnatural’ vision on the Road to Damascus, unlike the others who were true eye witnesses. He was called (and this eyewitness part was one key element in proving that he was a called apostle) and he was true to his calling.
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tHE APOSTLES HAVE DIED AND GONE TO THEIR REWARD. Next question.
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Well we have elders in my church who witness – what do you have?
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Oh, you have elders. You must be more godly
My church full of sinners is better than your church full of sinners….nah nee nah nee nah nah
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What a silly, childish comment.
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I always answer stupid questions with stupid answers my brother.
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Correction, you always answer every question with a stupid answer – that’s the way stupid goes.
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Quite so, quite so. I don’t suppose we’ll ever get back though to the days when we had ‘Sunday School sports’ – great fun – the one time the lad who ate all the pies got picked first – for the tug of war team 🙂
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Dancing is also a sport. I always remember in, The Next Karate Kid, when Pat Morita says to Hillary Swank, “Never trust a monk who doesn’t dance.” Sound thinking!
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No doubt the dance in just their ephods! 🙂
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Me neither:) I thought it was supposed to be the Prots who had the nutty dancers – I resent the RCC muscling in with clown and loony monks – what will the Quivering brethren do now to top that? 🙂
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Maybe we could sit on the monk to stop him dancing? 🙂
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But it’s the difference that makes the difference.
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That’ll be $250 consultation fee payable to DWM 🙂
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A salutary reminder, Geoffrey, of what it ought to be like – as well as of our part in making it so – thank you – you’ve been on cracking form this week 🙂
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How very kind of you to say so C – and thank you for putting them up – though I think I’m getting there now 🙂
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Yes, indeed, the last couple were fine – I’ll continue to do them when you ask, and am happy to check over when you put them up, but yes, it looks as though it is going well now when you do them 🙂
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Most grateful for your help – have emailed 🙂
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There is something very idyllic and comforting in your description of your own Christian community that is appealing; for it hearkens back to a time of small hamlets and and stable communities that were bound together in their lives, their work and their families; a agrarian society of strong people of character and community even outside of church.
With the mobility and changes brought forth in the industrial revolution that swept much of the world, these points of intersection between people are sometimes minor if not completely absent. If you go to Florida, more than half the parishes are filled with visitors from all over America and for the Cathoic the sense of ‘haing something in common’ with their fellow pew sitters is nother more than the fact that we hold to the same basics: Ephesians 4:4-6 “There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all”
So there is a wider view that we are called to these days and the pined for intemacy and communion that you speak of is largely lost . . . though I do not think that is necessarily a handicap as it opens an avenue to our inter-related spritual lives: a human community that sprititually transcends the local . . . if we have the eyes to see and ears to hear.
It is why, if this is to bear fruit and for us to find community among a diverse population that we must hold the same faith . . . and be educated in the same values and beliefs . . . everybody singing from the same hymnal. That is bit that seems to have recently disintegrated largely in our world. It is the hope for the Catholic, that the same Communion, is what relates us to one another: in belief and in sacrament. Their is a spiritual bond that one has to peoples all over the world that unites us in a universal fashion that we see breaking down in our modern world. I worry more about that than I do about the loss of the very nostalgic small community churches and house churches of our past. For that is an era that seems to be disappearing at a rapid rate.
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We’re fortunate, but we do a lot of evangelism and I find the harder we work, the luckier we get 🙂
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Thanks for mentioning Acts 11. It tells how people are saved. The holy ghost falls on them and changes them. Some think they get wet in water and they are born again. Their religion tells them they are born again if they do this and that. Well, that’s what religions are for, to lie to the flock.
Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
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You curiously mix up truth and falsehoods. when you grow in Christ this will cease.
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VATICAN CITY (AP) — In an historic step to heal the 1,000-year schism that split Christianity, Pope Francis and the leader of the Russian Orthodox Church will meet in Cuba next week in an attempt to begin bridging the church’s East-West divide.The Feb. 12 meeting between Francis and Patriarch Kirill was announced Friday by both churches. It will be the first-ever meeting between the leaders of the Catholic Church and the Russian Orthodox Church, which is the largest in Orthodoxy.
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….. why Cuba? do they intend to replace the incense during the mass by the smoke of fine Havana cigars? Will ‘sharing the peace’ involve passing round cigars?
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Such meetings always used to be close to the Emperor’s palace – how far is Washington DC from Cuba?
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Take a gander of the orthodox headmans costume. It makes the Roman pontiffs costume look like a bedsheet. He must be holier.
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Yes – after all, Jesus always wore a fancy costume. These orthodox people are clearly more spiritual.
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mAAHHHAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
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Their robes date back to the Middle East Bosco – do keep up with your costume holymen, My suit dates back to the 1970s 🙂
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Looks like night-dresses to me. My old 70s suit has a few more years left in it yet – still, when it gives out, may order myself a fancy outfit from there!
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Sale of the century – buy ’em up now Bosco and then when they run put, put the price up – corner the market my man!
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You can even buy gold cups filled with the blood of martyrs of Jesus Christ.
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I’d need a certificate signed by St Peter first 🙂
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“Christians do not exist in some splendid isolation worrying about the state of their souls”
This is secondary in my view, a necessary result of a prior policy which is that the Church exists in no isolation whatsoever. The Church is opened up to the entire world, loving every man on earth and thus being unable to effectively love their neighbor. There is no identity in the Church, and people are driven by identity, by close bonds with kith and kin. Where does the Church in the West operate as it did in the past, the locus for local community ties?
We have Churches in the West far more concerned with aiding Islamic ‘refugees’ than dealing with endemic problems within our native communities, suicide, drug abuse, unbelief, and theological error! What can this be described as but a betrayal of those they are meant to serve, rooted in the soil by the church’s very foundation? It is letting down the people closest to it. With this in mind, is it any wonder men are walking away from the church? Women can abide such things, but men cannot. They want churches who will maintain the spiritual health of communities, not pursue the vain and ultimately liberal desire to cleanse the whole world of evil. The sentiment from men in many European countries especially is this, “the Church does not care about me and my community.”
That is the real travesty here, and it needs to be fixed.
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I agree. We are commissioned to be fishers of men, and our job is to bring the Word to everyone by every means at our disposal. The problem is that so few now see it that way.
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“theological error”
Yes, we cant allow that now could we.
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You better believe it – if it ain’t Jesus you’re following it’s asbestos underwear for you.
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That’s the one thing I don’t understand. Why create people just to torment them forever and ever? Forever is a long time. Fire is hot. There are people who id like to see in hell. But basically honest nice people are going to wake up there too. its just scary. Sometimes I wish there wasn’t a hell.
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So do we all Bosco – but God tells us it is there for a reason. He, and he alone, says who goes there, and I can’t see him sending decent folk there – but then no one died and made me Pope, so what do I know?
Have you seen today’s post on therapy? Where do you stand on it?
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Therapy. You cant talk someone out of liking what they like. Jesus can turn lives around.
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You tell him
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