I see that there’s a suggestion doing the rounds that all the churches should agree on a common date for Easter – and stick to it. The impetus for this piece of ecumenism seems entirely secular. It is frightfully inconvenient for the secular world that Easter Sunday can fall as early as late March and as late as late April, so how about we get our act together and settle a common date? Here’s a better idea, how about we don’t, how about we tell the secular world that if it wants to institute some secular holiday on a fixed day, it can, but leave us alone.
The House of Commons passed an act fixing the day of Easter back in 1928 – what, you neither? The World Council of Churches (breathe deeply) says it is a matter of ‘growing urgency’. what it really means is that this one has been knocking around ecumenical circles for a long time, like a lot of other things, but perhaps there could be some ‘movement’ on this. If they want ‘unity’, they could all re-read what the 318 Fathers at Nicaea had to say about Easter. Among the many reasons I would be opposed to any messing about with something that has been settled for so long, is that it would involve yet another jettisoning of our past in favour of something the world wants.
The date of Easter had been an item of controversy for some time by the time the Council met. The dioceses of Asia had followed the custom they had inherited of celebrating Easter at the Jewish Passover, which had several merits, beside being what they had inherited. It showed that even as late as the end of the second century, in that part of Christendom the Jewish heritage of the Christian churches had not been lost. Polycarp, who had the date from St John, celebrated it then, and had I been around back then, I think I’d have been there protesting against the Roman innovation. As it happened, at that time, Pope Victor had to wind his neck in. But the problem did not go away, not least because the Western Church did not follow the Asiatic custom. At Nicaea, the Alexandrian model, followed in the West, prevailed, and the Council fixed it as being the first Sunday following the vernal equinox.
As a proud Yorkshireman (what, you’d not noticed?) I’ve another reason for sticking to what the Council agreed. At Whitby in 664, those converted by Augustine’s mission confronted those who held to the customs imported under the Roman Empire in a Synod to settle the date. The Augustine folk cited the Council, the Celtic Christians preferred a version of what had prevailed in Asia. Modernity won out then.
Should it do so now? My small suggestion is that if we’re going to mess about with things, we go back to the model superseded at Nicaea. The ecumenists should be pleased, as it emphasises the links with our Jewish cousins; the anti-Rome brigade should be happy because it isn’t what Rome won all those centuries ago; and the ‘real traddies’ among us, who think it’s been downhill since St John kicked the bucket, can relish a rare victory.
I look forward to the Monks of Athos throwing a great big spanner (if they have such things here) into the works – and like that long forgotten act of parliament – to suggestions for reform ending up where they deserve to on this occasion – in the long grass.
NEO said:
Another instance of folks who don’t know what to do mucking about breaking things that aren’t. I’m inclined to agree, if we’re going to change, it’s time to go back to the one for which we (sort of) have Apostolic authority. But better still to tell the world to go hang, They can continue to sell Cadbury eggs on the first Sunday after the equinox, as they have been, for years.
Now, I do think the Hajj should be moved to the spring, however, to emphasize how much like us and the Jews, the Moslems are!
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Bosco the Great said:
Cadbury Eshtar fertility eggs
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Eccles (@BruvverEccles) said:
You’d have to check with Marcus Stock, Nick Baines, etc. but I see no reason why Yorkshire can’t have its own Easter Day.
In the Catholic Church the real problem is trying to stop them moving all holy days to the nearest Sunday. They haven’t yet decided how to do this for Good Friday.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
Very, very good, Eccles – perhaps they could move it to the nearest Sunday and save time by having a combined crucifixion and resurrection service – perhaps do it all on Saturday evening?
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Bosco the Great said:
The state run religion has already substituted its own Sabbath(sunday) for gods Sabbath(Saturday). Easter is a small matter. Eshtar was brought in to satisfy the Babylon mystery religion worshipers. Then it was forced on the state run devotees. That’s not surprising seeing as how they have a substitute Christ.
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Dave Smith said:
After listening to you for awhile, I often wonder, “who ties your shoelaces for you”?
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NEO said:
Velcro!
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Dave Smith said:
That would made sense, NEO.
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NEO said:
Yepper! 🙂
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Bosco the Great said:
If you must know, I leave my shoes tied but very loose ly tied so I can just slip them on and off without tying them all the time
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Dave Smith said:
You don’t know how proud that makes your mother, Bosco.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
You two think anyone trusts him with shoes?
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NEO said:
Well, his feet might be smarter than his head, I suppose.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
His feet are nearer his final fate!
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NEO said:
True and they may need some insulation!
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Dave Smith said:
Not really.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
Bosco, you’re barmy. Eostre was a German Pagan god, had nowt to do with Babylon. Have you thought of getting help?
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Bosco the Great said:
As ive always said…don’t you know anything?
Good thing for you and me that Christ takes usassaid, good brother Jeff, don’t you know anything? Good thing for me and you is Christ takes us as we are.
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Jock McSporran said:
Bosco – why don’t you try dating Easter? You never know; you might find that she’s quite nice.
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Bosco the Great said:
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT
Take a look around and behold who has all the Babylonian pagan religions trappings.
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Dave Smith said:
Thank goodness we are only responsible for what we say and not for what you understand.
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Bosco the Great said:
Well, my brother, who has all the Babylonian trappings? Aside for me being retarded, lets examine things.
Eshtar the fertility goddess is Babylonian. Weve gone over the Dagon fish hats a nd pine cone staff already.
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Dave Smith said:
You haven’t the competence to examine yourself much less something outside of yourself.
We could explain it to you, Bosco, but we can’t be held responsible for understanding it for you as well.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
That was Ishtar, and there not the slightest evidence that the Germanic Eostre had anything to do with Babylon – not that that will stop you – sounds the same. Wayne reminds me of John Wayne, you must be a relative, no, you are John Wayne – see the evidence you are both called Wayne. That is the logic, if you can call it that, of what you’re saying here – nuts!
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
Unlike you, I know some history. Unlike you, I know a nutcase when I see one. If you want to see one, find a mirror.
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Bosco the Great said:
No, because whatever it meant for ancient pagans, for Christians Easter is the celebration of Christ’s Resurrection. The fact that when it was first celebrated the feast of the Resurrection coincided with pagan celebrations doesn’t mean it was derived from them. The Jewish Passover (on which Christ was crucified) also coincided with such celebrations, yet this didn’t mean it was pagan.
As for Easter eggs, there’s nothing wrong with painting or hunting them on Easter–provided the real meaning of the day isn’t lost. As with the days of the week (the names of which are of pagan origin), any peculiarly pagan significance attached to Easter eggs was forgotten centuries ago.
http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/is-easter-a-pagan-holiday
Catholic Answers says the fact that easter is pagan should have been forgotten long ago….and it has, by most people. But a few , like myself, cry in the wilderness. God hasn’t forgotten. He will deal with the Woman who rides the Beast(government).
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
Yes, this we know, and I wasn’t aware even you were ‘thinking’ anyone was saying it had anything to do with pagan celebrations. Go back to sleep.
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Bosco the Great said:
I am going back to sleep.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
Sleep tight.
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Dave Smith said:
I’m surprised he didn’t think that this post had something to do with going out on a date with a girl named Easter.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
One of the hazards of posting here is that he wakes up, sees a word and the random nonsense generator in his head starts up. Oh well.
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Dave Smith said:
Not surprising. I think his favorite TV program is Ancient Aliens. He most likely sleeps with a tin foil hat upon head for safety reasons.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
Even by his standards, that was bizarre!
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Dave Smith said:
Psychotic behavior has a way of being like that.
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Gareth Thomas said:
At least he didn’t insult everybody. Much. I think the new social worker is helping him enormously with his social skills. Keep giving encouragement, but not too much encouragement.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
Yes, steady as she goes!
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Dave Smith said:
Gareth, I’m going to continue to encourage him to seek some professional help.
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Bosco the Great said:
Yes good brother Gareth, my days of hoisting the petard should be over in here. Ive gotten older and wiser, thanks to the patient people in here and good sister Jess.
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Gareth Thomas said:
I just love Whitby abbey. When I did parish missions in Anglican Franciscan mission teams, we used to bring in team members from other Anglican religious orders: Society of the Sacred Mission at Kelham, Mirfield Fathers, Benedictine sisters, etc. There was also the Order of the Holy Paraclete at Whitby We used to call them the Overhead Projector sisters (…OHP) The last mission I worked on was a fortnight parish mission in Hessle, South Yorkshire, at the north end of the Humber Bridge.
I hitch-hiked to the mission in Franciscan habit and I ended up walking the full length of the Humber bridge on the pedestrian path alongside the northbound traffic, habit billowing in the wind. There was a beach on the north end of the bridge, near to the church of St Francis in Hessle, and looking down from the bridge I saw an OHP sister on the Humber river beach trying to skim pebbles but failing badly. I made my way down from the road and introduced myself. She soon learned how to skim pebbles. Later on that evening we were leading a prayer group at the start of the mission.
She had come from Whitby. She was a great missioner as most Anglican sisters always were.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
Thank you for sharing such wonderful memories with us Gareth. I found that most moving, and a reminder to us all that Christians are Christians whatever their church – not sure about Calvary chapel Inc though 🙂
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newenglandsun said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton
The churches’ next task will be to come to agreement on when Sir Isaac Newton was born–Dec. 25, 1642 or January 4, 1643.
It’s not that the West and the East disagree on when and how to date Easter so much as the two are using different calendars. The East, in large part, uses the Julian calendar and the West uses the Gregorian calendar. England was one of the last countries to adopt the New Calendar (Gregorian one) and as such, celebrated Easter on the same day as the East for quite a while longer.
So why the two different calendars? Well the Gregorian Calendar was recently introduced in about the 16th-17th centuries and the Julian Calendar is the older calendar. However, in terms of astronomy, the Gregorian one tends to be most accurate with the advantage of more modern astronomical conclusions supporting its datings.
We both agree as to how and when to date Easter, what we disagree on is which calendar to use. What we need if we are going to seek church unity in regards to what day to celebrate Easter is adoption of the same Calendar. TBH, I think this is an issue we can agree to disagree on.
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Bosco the Great said:
False religions cant get their Babylonian holidays straight.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
Easter celebrates the resurrection of Christ you idiot. What is Babylonian about that? Go back to sleep, you’re drunk.
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Bosco the Great said:
I cant sleep forever. Point out where the apostles celebrate Eshtar and ill go away and never come back. if you cant find it, I want you to publicly announce that you are a dullard of the first degree.
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Bosco the Great said:
I don’t drink until at least after 12 noon.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
Goodness me, you do that sober?
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Dave Smith said:
Do try to sleep more.
I hate to point out the obvious, Bosco, so let’s just say that from the moment Christ’s tomb was found to be empty until today we constantly, as did the Apostles, celebrate Easter; for we are an Easter people who revel in the fact that He is Risen. A dullard of the first degree . . . seems a bit of projection by you onto others.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
You twit. The Apostles celebrated the resurrection every Lord’s day, and the Church has celebrated the actual day on its anniversary for longer than history records. If you think it hasn’t, you’re the one who has to show why. You have the oddest views possible. Do you think that unless it is recorded in the Bible it didn’t happen? OK, well in that case Peter and Mary must still be with us, ditto Paul, as no one records their passing in Scripture. History exists, dullards like you never read it and then open their mouths to allow the rubbish out.
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newenglandsun said:
“The Bible doesn’t record the Assumption of Mary!!! It is therefore FALSE!!!” “The Bible doesn’t record the death of Mary. Therefore, Mary is somewhere on planet Earth…”
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Bosco the Great said:
bAmen. The fact that He rose again we celebrate every waking hour.
The actual day He rose, no one knows, but approximations can be made by looking at jewish feast days, and even then, its a guess, and probably a wrong guess.
Good brother Jeff, im still waiting for the passages where the apostles, or anyone for that matter, celebrate the rising of the Lord, or maybe his birthday. Ill accept that. Ill go away if you can show me. If not…..you know what you have to do (;-D
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
Let’s see, Paul speaks of the saints meeting to remember the day of his resurrection, what more do you want? If you are going to be silly and insist that unless it is in the Bible, then you’d better be explaining where Peter is, as the Bible does not record his death. I know you are Californian and can’t help being a fruitcake, but you could try a bit harder. “saved” – yes, pull the other one, it has bells attached. I’ve known Jesus for night on 60 years, and whoever it is you worship, it isn’t him – you’re a fraud Bosco.
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Bosco the Great said:
The point is, that these holy holidays are not Christian. They are nice, but not needed for salvation. And they are pagan holidays with Christian names. Its good to be aware of this.
Send me all your money. The bible doesn’t say not to.
Its not amazing to me that some people take silence as proof positive. That’s where false religions dwell, in the holes and cracks of scripture. They make up stuff and claim its true because the bible is silent about it. But the bible isn’t silent on it. It talks of fables and the itching ears of those who are led astray.
Happy Eshtar
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David B. Monier-Williams said:
“The point is, that these holy holidays are not Christian. They are nice, but not needed for salvation. And they are pagan holidays with Christian names. Its good to be aware of this.”
The original feasts were pagan OK… The Church put their own Feast days on the same date…in your thick head can you possibly figure out why? The wrong answer is that the Church is pagan. Try again.
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Jock McSporran said:
David – I don’t know what he has against Easter. This was instituted by God as the Passover on the fourteenth day of the first month (according to the Jewish calendar) and the disagreement over its date (by my naive understanding) has always been how to figure out how this date corresponds to our own calendar.
All the other ‘feasts’ (such as Christmas – the one we have just had) – well, come on, admit it. Does it look ‘Christian’ to you these days? The date was chosen without reference to when Jesus may actually have been born (if it was Christmas, then this is purely coincidental) and the kindest interpretation is that Constantine wanted to entice more people over to Christianity; ‘look, if you become Christians, you can still have your midwinter solstice celebration – you simply call it something else – and, oh look! there’s a nice little baby to go ga-ga over.’
Do you notice that essentials of the Christmas story (such as Herod’s pogrom against all children under the age of 2) are conveniently missed out of the ‘popular’ version of Christmas? And do you think that it has been different at any other time within the last 1500 years?
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David B. Monier-Williams said:
Jock, you gave the answer away. As we see below St. Bisto goes off in another pointless direction. He just doesn’t know his base from his apex.
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newenglandsun said:
This anti-Holiday advocacy of Bosco makes me wonder if he is in fact a Jehovah’s Witness.
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Bosco the Great said:
The original feasts were pagan OK… The Church put their own Feast days on the same date…in your thick head can you possibly figure out why?
First id like to thank you for admitting these holidays are on pagan holidays.
Now, the question is…..can I possibly figure out why the state run religion renames pagan holidays to Christianize them.
Well, my first understanding was that it was a way for different cult followrs to still have their pagan holiday and also be a member of this new Christian religion. To placate the sun worshipers, the state run religion declaired SUNday as the Sabbath, a pagan day. Now, the question to ask me is…..does observing these holidays affect ones salvation. Theres the trick question. One has to be saved first in order to have something affect it. Since no one reading this is born again, I will give my honest opinion anyway.
These pagan holidays have become commercial events here in the USA. Families come together and stuff like that. Certain foods on xmas and thanksgiving(which isn’t a state run holiday) and Halloween and Eshtar dinner ham and potato salad and punch. It does not adversely affect the saved. And if I may speak for the Holy Ghost, the holidays are so mundane that they are rendered harmless.But the devotees of the big state run false beast religion place a lot of stock in phoney holidays and empty rituals. Since they don’t know the Lord, they think they are gaining his favor by these ritual things to do. I thought so also. Even though these pagan holidays are worthless, it should be a sign that the religion that instituted them is a false and wicked religion. Anyone with a brain should be able to put 2 and 2 together. So, OK, now you know the state run religion you are in is false, what then? Go religion shopping like many in here have. Or you can give up trying to do it yourself and let Christ do it for you. Ask him to show himself. Simple as that. No pedophiles in a box, no gold cups or wafers.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
Can you kindly explain which ‘pagan feast’ used to the the memorial of the crucifixion, because no one else things that.
Yes, yes, you bore on about the Catholic Church, saying nothing new and nothing that has not been said millions of times by people a lot cleverer than you.
I have known Jesus since I was 10 years old, I shall soon be 75, and in all those years he has never spoken to me like you do. He has never preached hatred, contempt, just the one thing you do not preach – love. God is love, you are filled with bad thoughts and feelings. It is you who need to find God. I pray you do.
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Bosco the Great said:
Sure thing sport.
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David B. Monier-Williams said:
St. Bisto, both Christmas and Thanksgiving are Federal Holidays.
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Bosco the Great said:
Federal holidays. That’s nice
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David B. Monier-Williams said:
The Church very smartly put Christmas on a pagan holiday to help evangelize the pagans. Outstanding marketing ploy as it turned out. Jock is correct, Easter is based on the Jewish feast of Passover and converted into the Gregorian calendar.
Now go away ignoramus.
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Jock McSporran said:
David – well, it does rather depend on whether you’re interested in quantity or quality. In the beginning, Christians were persecuted for their faith, so Christians were real Christians and standing up for the faith was heroic.
The ‘marketing ploy’ succeeded in attracting huge numbers of ‘luke-warm’ Christians, who aren’t Christian at all. ‘The Church’ ended up with an awful lot of Laodiceans as a result of this who, because they are neither hot nor cold, but luke warm, God will spew them out of his mouth.
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David B. Monier-Williams said:
Jock, you paint with a very broad brush stroke. As for England, the Faith was very strong for many years after during and after Bloody Lizzie I. You fail to remember, Catholics were, and to some degree still are, considered in many places, considered little better than the devil, especially by the likes of St. Bisto. Sadly now, all branches of Christianity in England and Europe as a whole, have become wishy washy at best.
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Jock McSporran said:
David – I don’t live in Britain any more, but there is certainly something in what you say about the way that Catholics are regarded when I lived there (I left in 1990).
As I see it, there are independent competing causes here.
My own naive experience of Catholics when I was very young was that they were either awfully posh or dead common – there was nothing in between. In our own town, it seemed that you had to have a title (Sir this, Lady that ….) to go to the Catholic church. I’m thinking back to the 1970’s. I have one example in mind, where each year one Catholic lady (with a title) opened her somewhat large house to the children for their golfing competition. The house had clearly seen better days – either money was something of the past, or else they chose to spend it in different ways from looking after the house. She was absolutely delightful and charming and did her best to encourage children from all backgrounds to take up golf.
However – the town a few miles from us was plagued by – the technical term was ‘Glasgow overspill’. These were people from Glasgow, who had been dumped on us. They had Glaswegian accents and their surnames were largely Irish. Their idea of a good Friday (or Saturday) evening out was to trash the town. I remember one example of a teenager who, while drunk, painted his name on a 13th century historic bridge and then immediately got worried that he might get caught, because the name he had painted on the bridge (his own name) was somewhat incriminating.
I don’t know so much about attitudes during the reign of Elizabeth I, which is not part of living memory – but I’m pretty sure that for the 20th century, the biggest part of the problem was that Catholicism was associated with the Irish working class element, who had their own ideas about having fun, etc …..
If they had simply been awfully posh, I don’t think there would have been a serious problem.
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Bosco the Great said:
Its not the dress that makes you look fat……its the fat tha t makes you look fat.
Your cult of death that you love has turned your heart into a chunk of granite. Its not that the catholic people are deonic, its that their religion has turned their hearts from the risen Christ to mystics and costumed holymen and rituals. Case in point is this Faustina you hold up on a pedestal. Not tom mention the substitute Christ you call the Holy Father.
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Bosco the Great said:
Evangelize pagans. Evangelize into what? Shakabuku them into the state run false hellbound antichrist religion.. You know what….its time for you to ask Jesus to reveal himself to you. Time is running out.
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David B. Monier-Williams said:
As to Christian Holidays becoming commercial again you need to look to cultural tradition in terms of food. Ham for some maybe the food of choice for Easter, however, in Europe the older tradition of lamb is still the norm. It is in my house. I bet you can’t figure out why.
For the multitude of people who are atheists, just non-belivers et alii these holidays are of no meaning other than days off work to eat and drink.
Practicing Christians on the other hand deem these days as both holy and festive and are part and parcel of who they are and what they believe. For Catholics, in particular, Christmas and Easter are very much a part of our Salvation.
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Bosco the Great said:
in Europe the older tradition of lamb is still the norm. It is in my house. I bet you can’t figure out why.
You can stuff your face with all the lamb you can hold…..but if you wake up in hell, what does it matter?
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David B. Monier-Williams said:
Not likely compared to you spewing your ignorance and hate.
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Bosco the Great said:
If I hated you I wouldn’t be here talking to you.
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David B. Monier-Williams said:
It’s your bigoted ignorance and hate for all things Catholic and all other organized religions.
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Bosco the Great said:
I hate getting up early in the morning. Other than that, I cant think of anything or anyone I actually hate. I don’t even hate good brother Hitler.
You and many other accuse me of hating Catholicism. Hahahaha. That does give me a chuckle. Believe me, I don’t give Catholicism a second thought. I don’t care one way or another about it, or any other false cult. If you knew me personally, you would know im the easiest guy to get along with….no hate or ill will. I don’t have the energy to hate things. But I have all the time in the world to alert my brothers that their religion is false and to ask the source for the answers.
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David B. Monier-Williams said:
C and Jess, St. Bisto still spews this bigoted ignorant bile. Time for him to go permanently…like NOW!
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Bosco the Great said:
Hmmmm. That wouldn’t be hate in your heart towards Bosco would it?
Tisk tisk. People shouldn’t hate people.
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