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The week of Christian unity can undo any progress made toward its main aim by one meeting – or so I find, and have found again last week. It was the turn of our local Catholic church this year to host a ‘service’ and a discussion. The service was the usual pap, which is about all one can expect on such occasions, but the ‘discussion’ was quite something else. As we’d all been looking at the beginning of the ministry of Jesus, the local priest begun by examining what ‘we mean when we say the Kingdom of God?’ Up piped one of his flock (who I was later told was something called an Extraordinary Eucharistic Minister – that was hardly the most extraordinary thing about her as it happened) to tell is in the tone of voice such women reserve for men, children and other idiots with whom a harsh fate forces them to consort, that ‘of course we should realise it is not a real kingdom, in those days they knew no better.’ As far as I could follow, she seemed to thing that the Kingdom of Heaven would be a participatory democracy. The priest asked if anyone had anything to say. What follows is what I had to say.
In the first place, it takes a degree of Biblical illiteracy of epic proportions to imagine that the Hebrews ‘knew no better’. God had not given them a king, and did not want them to have one, he yielded only when they insisted; the experiment did not end well. So the idea that a people who were ruled by Judges knew ‘no better than that’ holds no water. There is not much sign that the Jews of the Second Temple era thought a great deal of kingship – they had only to look at the people to whom God had given that office to know what He thought of it.
In the second place, there is not the slightest trace in the New Testament that God thinks that anything like participatory democracy is a good idea, of that it is modelled on the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus taught us to pray that God’s will be done ‘on earth as it is in heaven’; it would take a modern liberal Christian to find in that the idea that some kind of majority will should rule. Paul tells us the body is made up of many parts – but it needs a head. The early Church had elders who governed on behalf of all. They were not monarchs, God alone was King, but they were the servants of the King. Jesus will come again in glory – and he will judge the living and the dead; we are not told that there will be jury of our peers and an appeal system.
In the third place, the habit of assuming that we, in our time, know better than those who lived before us hardly stands up to examination. If the climate change alarmists are right, industrialisation has wrecked the planet; if they are not, most of our rulers are fools who have fallen for the biggest fraud in history: either way, our civilization’s superior wisdom seems suspect. Any ‘civilization’ that allows and encourages the slaughter of million of infants in the womb is really a form of barbarism.
In conclusion, Jesus meant what he said – heaven is a Kingdom with God as King and Judge. If we wish to argue the toss with him, there is a nice lake of fire which we will be welcome to share with all those who still think that having eaten of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, we really are as wise as God.
How did it go down? If I tell you that most of those present were liberal Anglicans and Tablet reading Catholics, you can imagine.
I do wish you had a transcript of the event, Geoffrey, so that we might analyze the depth of ignorance or arrogance present.
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It wouldn’t be good for the blood pressure. The Catholics present were arguing that God believed in social justice and would therefore not rule heaven as an absolute monarch. When I pressed them as to what sort of parliamentary system they thought was present in heaven, they just got cross.
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I find it preposterous that such a question based on a false premise would even be argued. Are we not called to be members of a Divine Household . . . it is obvious that all in the houshold are united with the Head and there needs be no government; all having the same will as the Father.
As for this side of Heaven, who among the Catholics did not understand that we celebrate the Feast of Christ the King every year? Have they never taken the time to ponder that?
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I would have replied something of the nature to her, “Catholicism, you keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.”
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As a Baptist, I’m not, perhaps, in the strongest position to deploy that line 🙂
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Great answer Geoffrey! Wish I had been a fly on the wall. Mind you, I would probably have had a complete kerniption (spelling?) if I had had to sit through too much of their modernist clap-trap.
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They should know better than to go this way when I am un the room – now they do 😄
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Your account would be funny if it were not so tragic. Tablet-reading Catholics says it all. Good for you for standing up and being counted.
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This is what passes as ecummenism these days. But then again, if Pope Francis can celebrate Martin Luther this year along with the Lutherans it doesn’t surprise: but the Pope sure does. Ignorance and foolishness seems to be all the rage; a faddish attachment to the insanity of this world.
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When you go further here, you find they don’t believe in the Creed either 😱
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I’m sure you’re right Geoffrey as I am sure that they never recited the Lord’s Prayer with any kind of understanding.
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The one who said the nonsense about it not being a Kingdom actually asked, with teal incredulity in her voice: “What, you actually believe in the Nicene Creed?” Said in a tone of voice reserved for idiots and toddlers. She was shocked when I replied: “I am not in the habit of lying when talking to God – and you?”
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And what, may I ask, was the parish priest doing or saying at this outlandish and enlightening moment? Did he, also, by silence, intimate that he also did not believe in the Creed we recite at every Mass?
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He said precisely nothing, ditto the Anglican chap – but as an elder in my own church I felt that in the absence of anything from them, it was down to me to speak up – quite mad the whole thing.
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Indeed so . . . scandal at its best.
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If they don’t believe in the Creed, what, apart from collecting their salary, is it they believe in?
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Endless dialogue, my friend and ‘sharing’ one’s faith, no matter its absurdity. That is the new way to evangelize, don’t you know? We never ‘tell’ people that which they are required to believe, we ask them what they think as though it really matters what they think. This is considered very spiritual and good pastoring these days. The priests are social workers, hosts for events and haven’t an idea of who or what they, themselves, are all about.
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I was very happy to ‘dialogue’ like crazy – odd though, they seemed not so happy – wonder why?
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You probably didn’t use the all important qualifier in your answers: which is ‘I feel . . . ‘
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Oh I did – I said ‘I feel that you may be in the wrong religion’ – that went down ever SO well 🙂
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Well, it was a spot on observation. i think she might be more happy in a Wiccan coven. 🙂
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Me too – I have no patience with these folk – they are charlatans and hirelings and need calling on it.
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i wish that was all they were, my friend. Heretics, apostates and modernists is what I call them.
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What I call them is not fit for mixed company.
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Probably an echo of my own private thoughts. 🙂
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I guessed they might be ☺️
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It has given me great pleasure to announce to my local friends here that I have a Catholic guest coming to stay for a week soon, who was thrown out of the same monastery as me…
Sadly, when he arrives and we begin to catch up, he will discover that I am no longer the same Catholic who wrote a celebrated liberal-minded article for the Tablet in 2009, and that I have been consistently expressing for the past five years a more traditional view. I hope our friendship will survive the reality check.
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He may surprise you as well Gareth. I know I have moved on a number of things as I became more informed on the issues. It is, after all, the part of the process of growing in faith. As to you Tablet connection; all is forgiven. 🙂
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Uh ohh…Gareth….hang on to your hat. There could be a few squeaks, shouts and splutterings from your guest. You never know, he could also be a changed man by the time he leaves?!
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I hope so too.
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It is a great shame that some Catholics think this way now. I am used to it with Anglicans, but they have mostly given up.
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Catholics don’t, Geoffrey . . . just folks who ‘think’ (what an oxymoron that is) they are Catholic. 🙂
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As I say, she was actually a special Eucharistic minister – I’d say she was very unspecial!
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She glories in being thought of as above others whilst she biasphemes the Lord through her ministry; evidenced by her disbelief in the Creed. I know the type and I just cringe to hear of these things. She may be typical of a large number of Catholics in Name Only but she is not Catholic in my book.
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The sad thing is she was one of the Catholic representatives at this interfaith beano.
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That speaks both to her priest and the bishop of that diocese. Ignorance begets ignorance and the Church is in real trouble as long as these are its representatives.
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She’s far from ignorant, she’s a bright woman with a theology degree, during which she imbibed every bit of modernist rot going. That’s the problem with her, she can argue her corner, and to those less versed in these things, she can be very persuasive. I’ve never minded being accused of being a fundamentalist – Jesus was, so if it was good enough for Him, I’m in! I’d guess you and C and Neo would be too 🙂
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Just shows the depths of the problem . . . for even Modernist Apostates are teaching folks and they receive a degree in theological heresy and apostasy for their efforts. How sad and how too common it is.
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It is – and the wretched woman is on the local diocesan education committee – I can how that one is going to go!
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Indeed. Had I been there, I might have asked her what theologians taught her and if they were of the same quality and mind of say Garrigou LaGrange who taught St. John Paul II or of the theological teachers of Pope Benedict XVI. How she can hold, and the hierarch of the Church allows her to hold and represent them, all of these heretical thoughts and positions is beyond me. She has a degree that may have cost her her very soul and those who are taken in by her as well.
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She did her degree at a university which has a Professor of Catholic studies who writes regularly for ‘The Tablet’ – so it is all, if you’ll pardon the word. ‘kosher’!
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Yes indeed . . . academic freedom at its best.
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I’m not sure she was in favour of free speech by people like me 🙂
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Of course not; they never are. Modernist progressives are very predictable that way. 🙂
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Yes, arrogant and self centred.
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. . . closed minded, bigoted, gullible and most of all wrong. 🙂
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That sums them up all right 😊
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closed minded, bigoted, gullible and most of all wrong
You rang?
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“she seemed to thing that the Kingdom of Heaven would be a participatory democracy”
I don’t think I could stomach such heresy in person. Do you gain anything from participating in such discussions? Sounds like sticking your hand into a viper’s nest to me.
The Kingdom of God will be a democracy?! The very presuppositions of democratic theory are that kingship is illegitimate and all are equal, commoner and king, so their statement is of their own equality to God! This becomes more offensive and hubristic the more you pick it apart, almost satanic in fact! And it was Catholics joining in with this, not just Anglicans? Their priest has failed them so utterly and completely, he should be replaced.
“Extraordinary Eucharistic Minister”
She isn’t a minister of anything. Women are to remain silent in the Churches. Again, more hubris above one’s station, spitting in the face of God.
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I concur with you on this.
In the Catholic Church, “Extraordinary Eucharistic Ministers” can be both male and female.
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Aye, extraordinay ministers, whether men or women, are a scandal. The only person that should touch the Precious Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ to commune the faithful should be a consecrated Priest with consecrated hands; for that is why their hands were consecrated in the first place as were the vessels that contain the Holy Species.
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As an elder in my church it falls to me to go to these things. I offer it up to the Lord.
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Say good brother Jeff, god doesn’t like being touched by regular old common people. To touch the precious body you must be a consecrated catholic priest, with consecrated hands. Otherwise Jesus gets mad. Jesus spoke of little else.
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I’ve got that passage underlined – … now let me see, just where did I put it? 🙂
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Haaaahahahahahahahahahahaha (;-D
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I rarely respond to you, “Bosco”. (Bosco: a curiously Catholic pseudonym for one who speaks for another side.) Because I have known your nonsense for longer than most here in this place, and it is truly a waste of time. While you desecrate any attempt at Christian ecumenical uniformity every time you stick your foot in your keyboard, it is particularly horrid that you besmirch Christians in a discussion on the theme of the Week of Christian Unity: a time when differences are usually buried. But you sling mud at any Christian tradition, don’t you? Like the atheists and the Christ haters everywhere.
Why? Because you are not actually a Christian, Bosco. I’m going to make that challenge now and I am going to evidence it. In the first place, you are not a member of a church of any kind. You have said, and I remember it well – so will you – that you do not even attend your Calvary Chapel. Only on occasion do you go there. So you have said, very plainly. Therefore you are not a member of a chapel community of any kind. Possibly you fell out with them? Who can blame you? We all would probably do the same, given the mad ideas of some chapel sects. But you never thought it through and came to the conclusion that you should find Christ in the real Church. That is a real lost opportunity.
Secondly, and most evidently for all the people who have seen your continual denigration of all their solid Christian argument on this blog; you provide no recognized Christian evidence and you do not speak as a Christian. Your modus operandi – on a blog that is of the gentlest on the internet – is raucous and hysterical bizarre nonsense to attack Christians. Your ideas bear no relation to Christian faith. When you are challenged for your Biblical errors you either run away or change tack. You rail against Catholics on a blog that contains many Protestant voices.
Bosco, you have no Christian arguments! I hesitate to say you have no Christian faith – for I hope one day you will develop such faith, because your present long-term antagonism shows that you are fascinated by our shared ecumenical Christian tradition. That is why you are here: you cannot overcome it and you know that, but you also know you have something to learn, and that’s why you keep coming back. The fascination with the truth.
Now please have the sense to realize that. Confess. Be protestant. Be Catholic. But don’t continue being nothing, and pretending to be “saved”. Brother, don’t. You choose. Choose now. Christ gives you the choice. Always. And again, “I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of God.”
The “rich man” may be he who thinks he is “saved”.
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Thank you good brother Gareth, for that calm appeal for me to join a fold, any fold. It shows you do care about my salvation.
No, I didn’t have a falling out with anyone at Calvary. On sundays I stay in bed late. The pastor is born again and a number of the people are born again. Ive never had any problems. We all know the same Lord.
Im accused of attacking catholic people. I rarely attack the person. I attack, odd word for expose, the false practices of the religion. Then, the members of the false religion take it personal and accus me of attacking them personally. Ive encounterd this phenomenon regularly.
I don’t belong to a group or denomination. The Lord is my shepherd.
The “rich man” may be he who thinks he is “saved”.
Excuse me if you take this as an attack, but I find that catholics take a dim view on anyone who says they were born again, or saved…..they mean the same thing. Its obvious that their church has taught them against a salvation by a personal savior . They are taught to come to their services and there one will find salvation, that must be renewd each sunday, and if one doesn’t renew, its a mortal sin, unless one has a good excuse for not attending. The devilish Catholic Church tells this to little children, to scare them into attending their ritual ridden hollow masses, where no personal savior is presented. Attend every sunday or you will go to hell.
Jesus has a particular fondness for the little ones. Id hate to be the sunday school teacher that lays that hellish burden on little children.
Well, you can see why the catholic church isn’t my choice of religion.
I am a watchman. I sound the alarm. If I fail to warn people, my boss will deal with me….and I have him breathing down my neck already.
Those who do not believe the sound of the trumpet have been warned.
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Bosco – Gareth didn’t hit on the main problem – which is that your blog (and quite a lot of your conversation here) indicates that you’re attracted by pure filth – you love it. For this reason, I am extremely sceptical of your profession of faith.
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Are you alluding to the gay site that I own and operate?
cherrybombcoutour.blogspot.com
You are calling the content of my site filth. Well, what is the content of my site?
The news stories about the day to day activities of catholic priests that I post for everyones enjoyment are what you call filth? Does it make me a bad person because I reprint stories of vice by catholic clergy?
My site has stories and real pictures of catholic priests in their natural habitat, and you call it filth. Well, good observation.
Whats the moral of that story? That Bosco the Great is a bad person?
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Yes Bosco – that’s the one. Take it down if you want anybody to believe your testimony that you’re saved. That would be a good start.
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My password isn’t working. I cantget into my own site. Ive been banned from my own site. You reminded me that I haven’t updated any new scandals recently. So I went to put up the latest news and I couldn’t get in.
Taking down my site doesn’t prove im saved.I don’t have to prove anything. Since when did you become a bleeding heart those poor old pedophile priests?
My message is the same…The Lord stands at the door and knocks.
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Wish I had been there to witness their faces as their pomposity was well and truly pricked. Such a great response!
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I think they think,I broke the unspoken rule on these occasions – no one mention Jesus.
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I am reminded of Mons. Ronald Knox, who wrote excellent satire, Absolute and Abitofhell ‘in the manner of John Dryden’ on the new approach to religious belief that was leaking into the Anglican Church around the turn of the century. It is worth reading in full (not least to remind us that there is little new under the sun – this was published in 1915). He would be saddened to find the Catholic Church equally infected.
In case you don’t know it (and just to indulge me…) some of my favourite lines include:
First, Adam fell; then Noah’s Ark was drowned,
And Samson under close inspection bound;
For Daniel’s Blood the Critick Lions roar’d,
And trembling Hands threw Jonah overboard.
Lux Mundi came, and here we found indeed
A Maximum and Minimum of Creed:
But still the Criticks, bent on Matthew’s Fall,
And setting Peter by the Ears with Paul,
Brought unaccustom’d Doctrines oversea
Suggesting rather, Caeli Tenebrae.
You get the idea; and so it goes on, questioning the wisdom of those who:
Eschewing Luke, John, Matthew, and the rest
Read Mark, but could not inwardly digest.
But my absolute favourite couplet is:
When suave Politeness, tempering bigot Zeal,
Corrected, “I believe,” to “One does feel.”
A man of genius and wit: we could do with a few like him now.
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I have not read it for years, and am much amused by the reminder – and sadly, how right he was. As I told her, I am not in the habit of lying in public to God – she had expressed incredulity that I believed in the Creed.
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Just bloody brilliant. That’s all. 🙂
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Thank you.
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Sorry, I have not participated as much the past several days, I am now teaching during the day and usually by the time I can respond most of the conversations are over due to the difference in timezone.
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Well, you are always welcome 🙂
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I have the same problem at the moment. Really want to participate more fully in the discussions and contribute some material but my job keeps me busy during the day and my distance learning course keeps me busy in the evening 😦 Still hopefully in a few month’s time I will be in a better space. There is so much good material posted here and some excellent discussions – it is such a pity that I do not have the opportunity to read them all. Keep it going lovely people….I’ll catch up eventually!
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Geoffrey – ummm – far be it from me to stick up for the Catholic commentators on this blog, but I’d like to point out that you get some pretty duff Baptists too.
Since you are a Baptist, wouldn’t it be more fitting for you to write a post along the lines of, ‘I went to a convention for Christian unity hosted by a Baptist church and it was rubbish – you’ll never guess what rubbish I heard there.’
Leave it to the Catholic commentators (such as Dave Smith) to comment in scathing terms about the rubbish that goes on within the RCC.
Other than that – I’d like to know why you were wasting your time attending an event where everybody knew beforehand that it would be utterly rubbish.
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As an elder of my church it was my turn to attend, and it happened to be at a Catholic Church. What interested me was that this was their contribution to ecumenism.
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