If one disagrees with friends on one thing, is that sufficient to break the friendship? In essence that is what the Primates of the Anglican Communion were discussing this week in Canterbury. To some outside my Church the answer seems to have been ‘yes’, because the issue here was homosexuality. This seems to me, as, fortunately, it did to my bishops, an overreaction.
I have seen the words of St Bernadine of Sienna quoted in part, so I looked them up and found a fuller account here:
“No sin in the world grips the soul as the accursed sodomy; this sin has always been detested by all those who live according to God.… Deviant passion is close to madness; this vice disturbs the intellect, destroys elevation and generosity of soul, brings the mind down from great thoughts to the lowliest, makes the person slothful, irascible, obstinate and obdurate, servile and soft and incapable of anything; furthermore, agitated by an insatiable craving for pleasure, the person follows not reason but frenzy.… They become blind and, when their thoughts should soar to high and great things, they are broken down and reduced to vile and useless and putrid things, which could never make them happy…. Just as people participate in the glory of God in different degrees, so also in hell some suffer more than others. He who lived with this vice of sodomy suffers more than another, for this is the greatest sin
I have gay friends, they are not ‘close to madness’, their intellects are undisturbed (indeed one is a professor at one of the best universities in the world), and I have not noticed that they are any less generous than others, or that their souls are more stunted; neither has it made them slothful, irascible, servile or any of the rest of the saint’s prejudiced nonsense. Unlike St Bernardine, most of those I know are not obsessed with pleasure, they feel they were born the way they are, and they get on with their lives. St Bernardine is welcome to his view, not uncommon in the fourteenth and fifteenth century, but just as we no longer take so many of the attitudes of that era as gospel (burning people at the stake, anyone?), neither too should be allow ourselves to be guided by them on this issue. That quotation is, to anyone with gay friends, shockingly offensive, and worse, it is a mass of prejudices which simply do not stand up to examination. Might one find gay people who match that description? No doubt, just as one might find heterosexual people who do? So what?
I have the horrid sense here I get when I see Professor Dawkins debating fundamentalists – two sets of closed minds beating each other with their prejudices. It is certainly the case that militant homosexual lobbies insist that what matters most is their sexuality, and to be honest, if my sexual preferences had been the subject of the sort of persecution and insults theirs have, I, too, might feel militant. Their equivalent on the Christian side are those who insist that ‘sodomy’ is the greatest sin. Jesus says nothing about it, and St Paul, who certainly does, numbers it among a number of sexual sins. It is the prejudice of past ages which elevated sodomy to the status some still want it to have, and their insistence brings forth from their opponents a similar heightened rhetoric. I suppose that since lesbianism is not sodomy, women ought to be left out of this, but they got included all the same. The language used by some is directed as much at the sinner as the sin, and Archbishop Justin was wise and compassionate to apologise for it. Extremist language and attitudes spawn the same on the other side, and so we go into the abyss. It seems significant that Archbishop Justin is being attached for bigotry by those who reject Church teaching, and as abandoning it by those who want to make the issue one on which to end communion. When those prone to extreme positions and language find only the love of God, they do have a tendency to react crossly; they might ask themselves whether they are really quite as right and the others as wrong, as they assume in their self-imposed rigidity?
Those who genuinely feel that this issue is so vital that they cannot stay in Communion with those who disagree with them need, I am afraid, to explain why, to them, this one issue is so important that it overcomes the ninety nine other issues on which they agree? The same is true, mutatis mutandis, of those shouting bigotry and yet who use its language about those who disagree with them.
Let me be clear as I end. My Church has stated unequivocally that it has no power to approve of same sex marriages, it acknowledges what I acknowledge, that this runs against the word of Scripture and tradition. It goes further and reminds the Episcopalians that they are sinned against good fellowship by going their own way on this. Having done this, it then does a remarkable thing, it affirms the bonds of Communion remain, and that is because:
We, as Anglican Primates, affirm together that the Church of Jesus Christ lives to bear witness to the transforming love of God in the power of the Spirit throughout the world.
And they do so because:
It is clear God’s world has never been in greater need of this resurrection love and we long to make it known.
To some, this will appear only as an attempt to hold together what cannot be held. To me, and to many Anglicans, it a Spirit-filled statement of a determination not to allow those, on both sides of the debate, obsessed with this subject, to prevent us bringing the love and knowledge of Jesus Christ, the Risen Saviour, to a world which needs him as much as, if not more than, ever,
Hear, Hear! very well said, dearest friend. :)xx
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Thank you, dearest friend 🙂 xx
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🙂 xx
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Me and Flicka thank you for such a warm welcome.
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Now, now, you know that you are just horsing about 🙂 xx
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As Sarah Palin said, if you put lipstick on a pig it’s still a pig, and what’s even worse, this pig—dog won”t hunt. Throwing pearls before won’t do any good either, neither covering it with band-aids.
I think I’ve done enough damage to the English language.
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Now THIS comment is the one that deserves a Hear, hear!
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“If one disagrees with friends on one thing, is that sufficient to break the friendship?”
Jess, you’re making it sound like the disagreement is for something as inconsequential as one who detests asparagus and another who loves asparagus. It all depends on the fundamental importance of the disagreement between the two: is it a foundational character flaw, a poor example for the development of my child, a pathology that is both a danger to them and to those whom they might teach by word or deed? For instance if a person cannot or will not attempt to overcome a flaw as fundamental as being trustworthy, honest, law-abiding etc. I doubt you would delay in ending the ‘friendship’.
The chasm between the Anglican Communion and their ‘friends’ in the American Episcopal Church are fundamental. And I doubt you would use the 1 and 99 argument if it were that they accepted 9 of the 10 Commandments but rejected but a single one. That is because it is foundational to our belief.
In morality and ethics we also have foundational teachings and because they are concerned with salvation, they are fundamental as well. To break with these values is a fundamental flaw and it cannot be hidden beneath a bandaid. I would not put my name on a franchise being run by someone who does not follow the contractural laws for operating the business. The quality, profitability, health and public safety of leaving them in the ‘fold’ of the franchise would be devastating to its continuity.
How you want to deal with individual souls that are ‘willing’ to accept the teaching but have difficulties following the rules is one thing; but the health of the whole Church is completely something else. We have around 40,000 different Christian churches in this world and many times what which would separate one from the other are far smaller than a fundamental break in moral teaching. They are separate because they do not want to water-down their faith and they do not believe fully with one another. That is a fundamental difference of belief . . . it is right that they should be separate . . . or that they should submit to an authority greater than themselves; thus, resolving the issues that separate them. Either way . . . they need to get on the same page of the hymnal. 🙂
Look, if you’re happy with this, that is your business. If it were my Church I would not; just as I am watching the same thing, in different ways, being glossed over as well. I am one who likes a ‘real’ decision. I prefer excommunications and schism over the prolonged agony of enless cajoling and obfuscation on our teachings. Isn’t 50 years of this enough? 🙂
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The Anglican Communion cannot excommunicate anyone. The individual church can, but somehow I am not seeing the American Church excommunicating anyone, except perhaps those who disagree with their stance on gay marriage.
The question seems to be how important one thinks this issue is. Those who are ardently pro have sold the story it is the most important one there is, and we are not buying it.
No one is expecting the Americans to change their minds, but with the Holy Spirit all things are possible.
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I realize that but the Catholic Church certainly can. I assume that the individual churches within the Communion could throw someone out . . . and that the State Church could cut ties and disassociate with a wayward group such as the Amercian Episcopals. Is that a fair assumption?
I don’t think it has a think to do with the ranking of serious moral teachings. Any of them, when neatly excised from the faith, makes the group itself ‘out of communion’ witht the so-called Anglican Communion: so-called because it is obviously a complete hoax.
We have the same problem in the RCC. The German expression of Catholicism is not in communion with Rome and I would like to either sever ties or have them come to the Pope with hat-in-hand and beg forgiveness for their heretical teaching.
If nobody, as you say, is expecting the Americans to change their minds, then what is the Body Politic waiting for? . . . at least they could help the Holy Spirit change some of the pole sitters to reevaluate their beliefs. In the meanwhile the Catholic Church is picking up many of these disaffected Episcopals even though we have our own battle going on. They end up being rather conservative and oppose anything that is going to drag them down, little by little, to the depths which they watched the Episcopal Church devolve.
Just saying; where they are now may be where you will be in a few years . . . its catchy. 🙂
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Doesn’t the German Church have the support of the Pope? I always see Kasper with Francis.
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Seems like it, my friend. This is one of those ‘out of season’ moments. I’m afraid if JPII or BXVI didn’t do it, we won’t get another who will for some time. We can at least storm God with our prayers to clean out the stable or cut them off from the Church so that they might see that they are in error. I’m tired of the Church bending over backward to accomodate these heretics . . . some is merciful and necessary . . . but after 50 years of this nonsense we might see that for all this talk we have not progressed at all. Its a stalemate. Let us separate then . . . amicably.
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As you rightly say, even in your Church, which does have a Magisterium, no one is taking action against the Germans or the Belgians – and that is where the power exists.
In our Communion, no one Church has the power to take action against another, and of course, it is the main Episcopal Church which is being censured for breaking communion on this issue. There have already been splits in the USA with several continuing churches. All this has done is to divide us still further. ++ Justin is trying to find a way of reminding us all that we agree on 99% of things, so why divide on this one – is it really that important, except to the lobbyists?
Given the good work the Communion does in places such as Africa and Asia, and given that there are souls who need to hear the good news, it seems perverse to turn from these to argue over something which only a few Western liberals think matters.
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Then would that good work end if they had parted ways? It seems to me that it does nothing to the Amercans either way.
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Yes, I think it would, given the amount of money the Episcopalians into this.
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Then they supply the money but the evangelization . . . they are nothing more than a piggy bank for the Communion?
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No, they put many people in the field too. This is my point, not letting this one issue about which some are fanatical, get in the way of everything else. The fanatics insist it is the most important thing, I, like many, refuse to accept that agenda.
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Then I was right before . . . nothing would change. The evangelization would continue. 🙂
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No, I don’t think they would, I think they would only do so if they could explicitly link it to an agenda they cannot currently link it to.
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This all seems so theoretical and impractical to me.
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Not at all, I know a number of people with same sex attraction who live celibate lives, and some of them do a good job ministering to others. They get no news coverage, but then they are not standing stark naked in the street all painted up.
It has a very practical application indeed here. Many of those with this attraction feel it is sinful in the way that married people know adultery is, but, perhaps for similar reasons, they give way to their sins. What do we do then? If we make it possible for them to treat it like any other sin, we proceed well; if we bang on like QV about it being a sin crying the heaven for vengeance, it does no good at all. If we are asking people to live celibate lives for ever, we have to proceed with love and with care – that is showing them God’s love through us – and I am naive enough to think God’s love will prevail.
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Bravo for your friends and to groups like COURAGE that do great work to ‘accompany’ this particular segment of the world. So how is it that we haven’t engaged? There is help . . . at the parish level and through groups like this who will walk with them: usually folks who have been through it themselves. I don’t see how I can do any more than tell them the truth of the moral precept. The rest is up to them. Are they going to accept it and seek counsel or help from COURAGE or people like your friends or are they going to argue for a change in the Church endlessly or until they get their way?
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That may be so in America, it is not here, indeed there is very little here at all.
It is easy not to see how very hard it is for those who feel that way, and how easy it is for them to take fright and stay away and hide – or to ‘come out’ and then behave in a way of which their new so-called friends approve.
There is no way of stopping some arguing for a change, but we have made it clear it is not happening – which is why we are being called bigots by the ‘usual suspects’.
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Jessica, I’m a day late and maybe a dollar short, but, you stated: ‘There is no way of stopping some arguing for a change, but we have made it clear it is not happening – which is why we are being called bigots by the ‘usual suspects’.’
Now, since your parliament has legalized same-sex marriage “and” yours is a state religion, it’s it just a matter or time? What am I not understanding?
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That when Parliament passed the legislation it gave the Churches the right to refuse and guaranteed it in law. So we are not going down that road. We have told the Americans firmly that in doing so they have broken good fellowship. No one I know if expecting the Americans to repent, but if they break communion it will be clear to everyone that it is their self-will which has led to this.
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40,000 They are separate because they do not want to water-down their faith and they do not believe fully with one another.
Most probably total nonsense by the RCCs here!
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It is the difference, I think, between being open about differences and living with them, and talking in code. Kremlinology did not die it went to Rome. Is there any other Christian leader who has to have a full time press officer to explain what he ‘really’ meant? I prefer honest and open disagreement to this coded talk.
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O please, the two of you . . . how silly. Nobody knows how many non-denominational churches there are out there. For the denominationals . . . I’ll let you count them on wikipedia . . . there is a bunch of those. There is a huge number of 1 parish churches not affiliated with one another . . . just drive about the Southern US and you’ll find 2 or 3 on the same block and scattered about in the countryside. We have far more non-denominals than we have denominationals.
But the point is made . . . no matter if there were only 200.
Anglicans and the rest did not wring their hands when they broke communion with Rome . . . so why would they wring their hands over a wayward group that is destined to leave them?
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I think history tends to show that it was the RCC which excommunicated us. The C of E didn’t, and doesn’t accept it is not part of the Catholic Church, but the RCC says otherwise. Unlike the Rome of those days, we, having seen where throwing people out gets you, prefer to try other ways.
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And rightfully so as it would be logical for the American Episcopals to be left on their own.
How they cannot accept that it is not part of the Catholic Church when they will not accept the successor of Peter is beyond me.
Well, I’d rather have all those heresies from the beginning outside the doors rather than within. Lately, we have let them in our homes and these ideas are tearing us apart from the inside out.
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Which suggests to me that it isn’t possible to construct a hermetically-sealed church where ideas present in our wider society find no way in. We can try not engaging and saying to these people, go away we’re not listening, but that seems not to be working well. We could try talking in code so that no one outside the magic circle knows what is being said really. Or we could try something else. That’s what we’re trying here. It may not work either, but nor is any other way, so it’s worth having a go I think!
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The Church has always argued and wrestled with the ideas of the world. That is why we end up with all of the rules you don’t like. Rules came from the winners of lost arguments.
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There is no point at which the Church, as a whole, has wrestled with this issue. To say, as has been said in the past, that this is not ‘natural’ in the sense that many people feel it is, has not been something which, legally, it has been possible for those effected, to argue. Now they can. There are a whole new set of arguments which the Church has never had to address. If we are, as I am, confident that we are right, then we have to engage. We no longer live in an age where a Pope or anyone else saying ‘this is how it is’ is a plausible argument – as we may be grateful for if Pope Francis says what he might say on remarriage and communion.
We now have to actually engage and argue, we can no longer assume we have the power to close down arguments. This is messier, but better,.
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Then all those theologians and saints on the same page as your link were not doing any thinking or arguing with those who held to a different opinion? It is settled in Christianity, whether or not they (or you) think it isn’t.
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No, they weren’t at all. They were living in a culture where the law made homoseual acts illigal and punishable. So there was no open argument even possible. As that is no longer the case, we now have to argue, not lock people up. We have never argued this case in circumstances where Western societies accepted same sex marriage. That changes the context, and we now have to have arguments, not assertions.
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O really? And so homosexuality was not rampant in Rome even among clerics during the 1500’s and denounced by our saints and our faithful theologians? They won that battle of their day only to see it raise its ugly head again in our ours in any significant numbers. So we need to keep their arguments and their holy lives in mind today as we battle these same heresies.
That the secular world has changed is only an indication that we are to stay the course: in season or out of season.
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No, homosexuality wasn’t, because it did not have that name, and it did not have that name because it was not regarded as unnatural or wrong or immoral. You are welcome to do what I did, and see if you can find any prolonged consideration of this (as opposed to condemnation of it).
In so far as any ‘argument’ was won, it was by passing laws which made it illegal. I don’t really think that is much of an argument. what the Church did was to prohibit, what it failed to do was to argue the case that those who feel called this way should live celibate lives. It asserts it, but does so very little by way of offering real help. I can only speak about the UK, it may be different with you.
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That is like saying that the scriptures were not an argument. That we now must deal with those who want to spin their own meaning into scripture is not even open to debate. It has been held from the beginning . . . and only in our time has it been denied openly and defended openly. Its a closed book in my mind and entrusted to the deposit of faith. By all means try to help them if that is your calling. We all have different apostolates and this may be yours. It is not mine.
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But are they? The NT says almost nothing about this issue, and certainly does not mount an argument for those who suffer from same sex attraction and want to live in stable long term relationships.
For many it is, as you say, a closed issue, but that is not going to make it go away, not engage with those who need to be engaged with.
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See. Case in point . . . you have taken their bait as though they have a new gospel to teach us. If you do not agree wih them as to whether it is sinful or not . . . then on what basis do you object to the sin if not by scripture?
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I don’t think I have. I have, however, asked whether what is in Scripture, or indeed the early Fathers, is sufficient to warrant hyperbole about it being a sin crying the heaven for vengeance. It is sinful, but then so is self-abuse and so is looking lustfully at a woman, all are to be condemned. My point is that there is as much said about those two sins as about homosexuality, but people only seem to get worked up about this sin, not the other ones.
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Well the Bible says what it says and you are free not to accept it . . . or the teachings of the Church to your own peril. And yes, amen to naming all such sins as these which are also to be condemned.
Perhaps it is the distortion, disorder and disfunction of the vairous sins that elicits such a gut reaction? For they are all narcissitic acts that have self gratification for their end. But what is distorted in these others is completely reversed by this sin . . . perhaps why scripture points it out for special attention? The more things get disordered the more our collective minds are fouled and opposed to truth . . . which is never disordered . . . as it is ordered to God.
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Don’t get me wrong, because nowhere do I not accept what it says. What I think is more dubious is the vast superstructure erected on this. If it really were as important as some try to make it, I think Jesus would have said more and so would the early Church.
Yes, it is a sin, and as such we condemn it. How, though, do we deal with the sinner? It does not seem to me that the churches have been at all good at this, because if they had, there would not be so much bitterness – and it is the bitterness which closes hearts and minds.
I can’t see that the methods employed thus far are working, and so why it is not worth trying a new one.
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There are several problems here. One, is that we are dealing with a habitual sin that is on-going and lasts a lifetime in most cases. The other is that they have turned the argument on its head: attacked the very foundations of Christian moral teaching. I do not think that we should concede any of their argumnets to them and then try to straighten out the mess. My position is that they have distorted even our basic premise and they have played a victim card that is no different than the victimization by societies even our present time (think Muslims) regarding how to keep their society intact and preserve the values that it has. Every society has done it and some with more cruelty than others. Their persecution was no worse than that for any taboo that was registered by the state.
It is this added lust for breaking down societal taboos that adds to their enjoyment: there is nothing quite as exciting than to get a rush out of defying the law of the land or of society.
I will not concede any of their points without allowing myself the same freedom to attack their fundamental premises: such as their being mistreated, or their new eisegesis of scripture, or their claims that it is a ‘natural’ inclination for them, or that they want a ‘loving, committed relationship’. I will not concede that high ground to them. There expressed ‘feelings’ are suspect at the least. Their integrity on these matters is suspect as well. I have watched as they have systematically progressed the argument from its infancy into the entire apologetic which is well thought out and well planned and at the center of their exegesis is our teachings of love and mercy; not becuase they believe it . . . most are not even Christian that preach this new gospel, but becuase it is useful. It has become their apologetic and most Christians are gullible enough to buy into their arguments and place it as their starting point. I do not give them that satisfaction as I do not believe it and will not concede the center . . . which belongs to Christ and His Church.
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The problem is whether anyone concedes it or not is not really what is at issue. They do not accept it, and for many Christians, it simply does not map on to what they know about themselves, and telling people something they cannot feel is true, is not going to get any one anywhere. That is just the line which has brought us to where we all are.
There are many Christians in all churches who feel this way, telling them they are wrong plays them into the hands of the gay militants. Telling them that we understand their inclinations, which are like those heterosexuals feel when confronted with temptation, helps them feel less isolated. Explaining that there are ways, other than giving in, which can work, and that if they give in, they can do what we all do, get up and try again, is much more effective than telling them it is the sin which cries to heaven for vengeance, If that last had worked, we should not now be where we are.
I am not unsympathetic, but cannot see that it actually works. This is what Christians have been saying for a long time, and if it is working, you could have fooled me 🙂
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Well it worked for me and a millions of others over the years. I did not respond to the condemnation of the sins for which I was guilty by using by falling away from Christ. I read these condemnation on my own in books written by the saints and the catechism. It did not offend me that these were plainly condemned and that I had better look at my life and ammend it. If there sin is no different as you keep stating then why does this method work for ours and not for theirs? If it is different . . . is it not because of the depth of this disorientation that won’t allow them to unhabituate their attachments? God’s grace is there to help them and firm purpose of ammendment along with that grace will give them the same opportunity to change their lives as the rest of us enjoy. I believed the Church and it has proven to be correct. They do not believe the Church and so we must prove it to them . . . this insane as much as it is impossible. If you do not start at the fundamental point of knowing what is right and wrong, knowing that there needs to be a change, seeking help through the confessional and by fervent prayer then they will stay out of the Church . . . for they do not believe in the fundamentals of reforming our lives in Christ.
So you are right, it doesn’t work on many people . . . probably most. As we have stated most folks are habitual sinners with weaknesses and are not trying to reform themselves. They profane the Eucharist every time they receive. But this is not something we can give them. I can’t give them my faith. I can only tell them that it is there for them if they want it. Beyond that it takes a change of heart, which will come, if they ferverntly desire this change and this grace which only God can give. So dear friend, I love that you want to save everybody but some people are just not going to respond to the call and many will fail. You just do the best you can. Faith works but the other person must want to have such faith. 🙂
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Yes, but you were not inclined to that sin, and you did not feel it was ‘natural for you’, so it worked for you in the same way that no one needed to warn me against the sins of self abuse or adultery, as the idea of either never occurred to me, and when I discovered what they were I was revolted.
It is those to whom these things are not revolting than an argument needs addressing, and it is clear that the ones usually used have quite failed.
There are plenty of people with this inclination who do not act on it, or who do and are ashamed. The gay militants are happy to tell them that they have committed an unforgivable sin, because that will drive them into their ranks. The question is what we do for them.
It is terribly easy if one is not inclined to a sin to compound for the ones to which one is inclined by condemning those ones instead, but condemnation does not help a person who is looking for guidance.
It may be that love will not work either, but it seems to me we’re out of other option if we want to show we love the sinner whilst condemning the sins.
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The heck I wasn’t. I lusted after women for years and that is an inclination. And yes it was ‘natural for me’ but disordered which I finally accepted.
Good for those who don’t act on these impulses and if they do, feel shame. Then they have begun the journey back to an ordered life in God.
I don’t think you can do anything for those who have snatched into the group-think of the gay militants. They may have to descend to such pain and sorrow that they begin to despair: and then if they have a change of heart they return to God and the Church. You can’t do that . . . it must play out.
I really think all this talk about showing them love (not hard factual love like the Truth) is playing into their hands. It will not effect a change in attitude but only encourage them to make more demands. At least that is how they worked their magic in societal and political thought.
Teach the faith first and foremost. Ask God then to open then hearts and minds to accept the faith. And that is all you possibly can do. Faith, if they have it, will do the rest if they are people of good will.
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And the significant things here are two – that you finally accepted, but that what you wanted was not thought to be perverted or equated with bestiality (as QV has just done with homosexuality), indeed, among many men, it is considered a sign of manliness.
We have tried to letting it work out, and I don’t really think we can say it has. I don’t have a crystal ball and can’t say how treating people in a different manner will work out, but I do know I have worked with people who have asked and don’t seem to get an answer – rather like us with Bosco 🙂
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I’m not sure which is worse . . . to have no peer pressure against your predominant fault or having great peer pressure. In my mind the plight of men who elevate their sin to manliness is worse in a lot of ways for their is no incentive of stopping but almost of cheerleading of sorts to continue on. Since we are speaking of what will send a soul to hell, I think I would have preferred a negative peer pressure. It may have been enough to end the carousing before it begun. So it is not easy and I’m not sure that one has an advantage or not . . . only that the answer is the same . . . faith.One of the easiest excuses offered these days for everyone is the “you have no idea of what is like to have this affliction for you are not one of us.” It just isn’t a good enough excuse. I have had good advice from celibate priests about marital matter and child rearing. That is because there are spiritual answers that transcend all this logic and sentimental empathy that is so prevalent in today’s society. Just call me old school or homophobe or bigot . . . it just doesn’t register in the guilt box within my mind. It is all a silly use of emotionally charged words to render one silent. I’m not impressed nor swayed. 🙂
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I don’t disagree – but I can only say that the usual methods here have failed. It may be this does too, but we shan’t know unless we try.
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I would think that this is what you have already been doing from the beginning of this ‘faux crisis’ and it hasn’t stopped its growth or its infectious acceptance among the majority of the faithful all these years.
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I think we might all think that, but I also wonder what the evidence is when looked at objectively? It may be that it is there, it may be that we could try harder, so, we’re going to try harder. I don’t expect a different result, but we can say we have exhausted all reasonable and allowable options. 🙂
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Maybe taking the untried approach of St. Padre Pio would be more effective.
http://leandresz.com/en/vie-chretienne/saints/saint-padre-pio
🙂
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Ah, if only we had more like him – indeed any like him alive now 🙂 I must dash, but will be back tomorrow 🙂 xx (And thank you – just that, for all your patience and help) 🙂 xx
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Always love our chats, our discussions and even our arguements dear friend. 🙂 xx
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You’re a true friend, and I always benefit from your patience and advice 🙂 xx
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I feel the same Jess. So good to have you back once again and wrangle with the many issues that face us in these times. 🙂 xx
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Thank you. I always try to think the best of others, and sometimes that isn’t always wise – I’ll learn, I suppose. I’m very grateful for your patience – I learn a lot 🙂 xx
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Better to err on the side of trust than one of distrust . . . though we do need to be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. Sometimes we are just doves without the wisdom of a serpent . . . perhaps I am more like the serpent and less like a dove whilst you have taken the better part. 🙂 xx
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I think it is always a good thing to have an older and more experienced person who can help – I am lucky, I have you, Neo and C 🙂 xx
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Older is not necessarily wiser, dear friend but I thank you all the same. 🙂 xx
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I am very fortunate with the three of you, and know that 🙂 xx
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Well we are all fortunate to have you back with us, Jess. We missed you here. 🙂 xx
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That’s so nice to hear. I can assure you it is lovely to be back – and that I am being careful not to over do things 🙂 xx
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Please do, we wouldn’t want to lose you to over exertion. 🙂 xx
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Homosexuality is evil. It is directly and irreconcilably opposed to God’s will for humanity and for the human person. A homosexual orientation is a grave moral disorder within the human person. This disorder is not part of God’s plan for the human race; it is a result of the sinfulness of the individual and of groups of individuals. This disorder is not a part of human nature; it is an effect of serious sin on human nature. Anyone who has a homosexual orientation has a severely damaged human nature.
While a homosexual orientation itself is not a sin, it is a result of serious sin, and anyone who acts according to a homosexual orientation sins. Also, a homosexual orientation cannot possibly be present in anyone who has avoided all objective mortal sin in their life. Anyone who has a homosexual orientation has certainly committed sins that have contributed to this effect on their human nature.
Since the human person is often influenced by other individuals, and by society in general, some of the blame for this state can be placed upon other individuals, groups of individuals, and society in general. However, it is never the case that a person with a homosexual orientation is without any personal culpability. And any willful desires, thoughts, and actions taken by such an individual, in response to his or her own homosexual orientation, are certainly personal sins for which that individual is culpable.
The sinful secular society that surrounds us teaches many false teachings, in contradiction to Tradition, Scripture, and the Magisterium. The true disciples of Christ will listen to the voice of the Church and ignore the voice of strangers. The Bible, in both the Old and New Testaments, teaches that homosexual acts are always gravely immoral and that the homosexual orientation is a serious moral disorder within the human person. The Church has always taught that this disorder is contrary to God’s will and to God’s plan. Do not be led astray by the pervasive false teachings of modern society.
No one is born a homosexual, nor is there a gene or set of genes that makes someone into a homosexual. This is certain because each human person has free will. Our genetics and other factors with which we are born can never take away or nullify free will. And any act that is freely chosen by a human person is a result of free will, not birth or genetics. Homosexual acts, as well as every other kind of serious sin, are acts of the free will. Thus, these acts are sins for which each is personally responsible. One cannot evade personal responsibility for freely chosen actions by blaming genetics.
Some might argue that the orientation itself, as opposed to wilful acts, is not freely chosen. However, the Church teaches that homosexuality is contrary to the will of God; therefore, it cannot be a part of the human nature created by God. Also, no one can end up with a homosexual orientation without freely choosing to commit sins that are objectively and gravely immoral. Therefore, human nature itself, including genetics and whatever else constitutes the human person, cannot be said to be the cause of a homosexual orientation. Rather, it is the sins of the individual, and the influence of other persons and of a sinful society that causes this disorder.
Do genetic factors play any role in forming a homosexual orientation? If a person is raised in the true Christian faith, and if they adhere to that faith, avoiding all objective mortal sin, then, regardless of their genetics, they will not have a homosexual orientation. If a person is raised apart from true faith, in a sinful society filled with false teachings and harmful ideas, and if they commit objective mortal sins, such a person might be influenced, firstly by their own sins, secondly by a sinful society, and lastly by other factors, towards a homosexual orientation. But such a result is not determinate, even for persons who are very sinful, who live in a very sinful society, and who have other such factors.
All human persons, even those in a state of mortal sin, have certain inalienable rights given to them by God. These rights include the right to life, to some kind of work that fits their abilities and their state of life, and to medical care, to food and water, and to other basic human necessities.
However, homosexuals do not have any additional rights, other than those that each and every human person has been given by God. There is, in truth, no such thing as ‘gay rights.’ Such persons, who are unrepentant from serious sexual sins, do not have a right to any position of teaching, leadership, or authority. Those who hold such positions should have a good moral character. This is true in the fields of politics, education, law enforcement, the military, medicine, psychology, and other similar fields. And this is not an unjust form of discrimination or bias, but merely the just discrimination between those fit for a position and those unfit.
Homosexuals do not have a right to a same-sex marriage, nor to the rights, benefits, and privileges that society accords to married persons. Marriage was ordained by God, who created both man and woman, and who gave them to each other as a holy living reflection of the relationship between Christ and His Church, and between God and His Creation. Marriage is not a human artifice with which human persons can do as they please. A same-sex marriage is not, in fact, a marriage but an offence against God, against the human race, and against Creation.
The presence of a significant percentage of persons with a homosexual orientation, within any group or society, damages that group and makes it more difficult for the larger group to take actions as a group that are pleasing to God. The presence of a significant percentage of persons who commit homosexual sins, within any group or society, is a severe detriment to the ability of that group to live according to justice and truth. Therefore, the presence of a large number of homosexuals within any group or society should not be treated as if it were acceptable, nor should homosexuals be allowed to have positions of influence whereby they might harm society by promoting false teachings about morality, or merely by the own bad example of their lives.
The presence, within any group whatsoever, of persons who adhere to such evil ways, undermines all morals and all true love, faith, and hope in that group. And, if any group has a significant percentage of these persons, the group cannot succeed in doing what is good and right, as it will constantly be undermined in good deeds by these persons who choose evil.
Therefore, any group, within society at large, that wishes to deny admission to homosexuals, or to any other persons known to commit objective mortal sins, should be allowed to deny admission, on the grounds that admitting such persons would damage the ability of the group to act as a group with morals, justice, and truth.
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I don’t disagree with much of this, but what of the counter argument?
It may be that every man and woman who feels same sex attraction is lying, but that seems a little unlikely. If they feel that this is ‘natural’ for them, and if they want to establish a loving and stable relationship with someone they love, to call that ‘evil’ seems hyperbole. Evil compared to what? What words would one use to describe what ISIS does, or what is happening to people in besieged cities in Syria?
It certainly runs counter to what we understand to be God’s purpose. But now people are free to admit to a homosexual orientation, without fear of bad consequences, perhaps we are now beginning to see that there are people who feel that that is natural to them – they were made that way. One can, of course, tell them they are wrong, but as an argument it doesn’t work; it is your view against their view, and they are always going to say they know themselves better than you or me. You say no one is born a homosexual, but that is not the lived experience of many people, and just going round saying, in effect,. ‘you’re all liars’ is, frankly, rather silly. I am afraid the disorder has to be part of fallen human nature, because it exists.
You seem not to know of celibate individuals with same sex attraction – precisely what sin have they committed?
In terms of gay rights, I am not aware gay people are asking for anything special – they want the rights everyone else has; is there a reason not to do so in secular and civil law?
My Church has made it clear that marriage is between one man and one woman. It seems that, as so often, rich Americans know better and won’t be told they are wrong. We have told them they are wrong, we have imposed some sanctions, in so far as we can. I am not quite sure what more you would have us do?
I am not sure who the ‘we’ is who are going to tell homosexuals that they are not acceptable in our society? If you want that, I’d suggest you move the Kenya or Uganda, and there is is not a State in America, or a nation in the Western world that is going to enact your suggestion.
I am unsure how an example of faithful, monogamous love among homosexual people is going to undermine the moral basis of society, not least a society which promotes abortion, allows divorce and where churches turn a blind eye to contraception and its consequence. I think the horse may have bolted here long ago.
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The homosexual orientation itself is objectively evil, since it offends against the very order that God built into the human race and human nature. The heterosexual orientation is a part of human nature created by God. So, a heterosexual struggling against a tendency towards the immoral expression of a natural and generally good sexuality is not in the same category as a homosexual who is struggling against a tendency towards the immoral expression of an unnatural and intrinsically immoral sexuality. A heterosexual can find the moral expression of his or her sexuality within marriage. A homosexual cannot find any moral expression of such an immoral orientation.
A homosexual orientation does not necessarily result in eternal damnation. However, anyone who commits one or more actual mortal sins, and who refuses to repent from such sin through the last moment of their life, is certainly condemned to Hell forever. The only sin for which anyone suffers eternal damnation is final impenitence (refusing to repent from serious sin through the last moment of life). A repentant homosexual can go to Heaven by way of Purgatory; an unrepentant homosexual, who knowingly commits serious sin and who never repents, will certainly go to Hell.
To know and choose an evil deed,
and never to repent;
the only everlasting sin,
to Hell forever sent.
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So it is said. But what do you say to those who say that it is built into their nature? To men who have no attraction to women and women who have none to men? Are you telling them they are wrong, or that they are lying, or that their nature was not made by God? You make the assumption everyone is basically heterosexual, and for that there is no scientific evidence – indeed quite the opposite.
In your country and mine, a homosexual can find happiness in marriage, is that less moral than the serial monogamy of many in our countries?
I am not defending gay marriage, indeed quite the opposite, since, like my own church, I do not recognise it. On the other hand there are lots of people in our society who say they are born gay, and simply telling them they are liars is not, it seems to me, a constructive way of living with them.
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Before proceeding I should point out that I regard a homosexual orientation much like a temptation. Christians regard the ensuing conduct (once described as concupiscence but now more usually as addiction) but not the temptation itself, as sinful. There are, of course, degrees of immorality – some actions are worse than others.
It is common for apologists for homosexual conduct to make the following assumptions: That homosexual orientation, whatever its cause, is essentially no different from genetic traits such as racial identity, hair colour or left-handedness, and/or together with any possible pathology such as hormone imbalance. Now if this is true then rationally it must render those who indulge in homosexuality immune from moral criticism.
Given a predilection for a type of sexual activity and that it should be indulged whatever its nature, with no questions asked, except that it be with a consenting individual over the age of 16, cause those who claim to have a homosexual orientation to insist that its indulgence, in whatever form they see fit, raises no moral issue.
These two assumptions, taken together, not only lie at the heart of the present controversy over redefining marriage to include same-sex couples, but also, in part, the extensive damage done to the reputation of the Church.
Additionally, those who are led to believe that there is nothing immoral in homosexual conduct, to avoid self-contradiction, are often sadly obliged to disregard clear and obvious transgressions by the ‘gay’ community. I could list many examples.
To return to the assumptions above: Firstly, the much-used analogy with racial equality breaks down on many fronts. One’s race is genetically determined and is immutable; it does not raise any moral or behavioural issue. Sexual orientation can change, it is not entirely genetically determined (if at all), raises many moral questions and can be affected by upbringing and behavioural choices. To gloss over these essential differences is, I believe, disingenuous and intellectually dishonest.
Some time ago, (I think) the Jeremy Vine radio programme (I live in the UK, Jess) reported on this very issue: Those working in the field will admit that the causes of sexual orientation are complex and certainly not genetically determined (many identical twins having the same genetic make-up have different orientations). All admit that orientation can be influenced by environment, experience and behavioural choice. This should not be surprising since many have experienced a change of orientation – some who once considered themselves homosexual have changed and formed stable and happy heterosexual marriages; others, once married, have deserted their wives and taken up a homosexual lifestyle. The science is uncertain. Those who claim that orientation is immutable and genetically determined, and therefore its indulgence is immune from moral criticism, are almost certainly driven by a political ideology and are likely to be wrong.
So far as the second assumption is concerned, the Bible repeatedly warns about sexual immorality (heterosexual and homosexual) and the attendant spiritual dangers in its indulgence. Those who are led to believe that there is nothing immoral in homosexual conduct, to avoid self-contradiction, are often sadly obliged to disregard clear and obvious transgressions by the gay community, which, regrettably, are usually mirrored by heterosexuals. So, yes, the Bible does condemn the practice, but places us all alike in need of salvation.
Further, whilst it is true that some defenders and critics of traditional sexual morality seem to worry endlessly about whether homosexuality has a genetic basis, the question is largely irrelevant. For it is quite obvious that the existence of a genetic basis for some trait does not by itself prove anything about whether it is natural in the relevant sense. To take just one of many possible examples, that there is a genetic basis for clubfoot doesn’t show that clubfoot is natural. Quite obviously it is unnatural, certainly in the Aristotelian sense of failure perfectly to conform to the essence or nature of a thing. And no one who has a clubfoot would take offence at someone’s noting this obvious matter of fact, or find it convincing that the existence of a genetic basis for his affliction shows that it is something he should “embrace” and “celebrate.” Nor would it be plausible to suggest that God “made him that way,” any more than God “makes” people to be born blind, deaf, armless, legless, prone to alcoholism, or autistic. God obviously allows these things, for His own reason; but it doesn’t follow that He positively wills them, and it certainly doesn’t follow that they are “natural.” So, by the same token, the possibility of a genetic basis for homosexual desire doesn’t by itself show that such desire is natural. Homosexual activists often cite this or that alleged “finding” that such a basis exists; someday they might even cite something plausible. Even if it is established beyond a reasonable doubt that there is such a basis, with respect to the question of the “naturalness” of homosexuality, this would prove nothing.
I would acknowledge, of course, that that by itself does not show that homosexuality is immoral either. After all, having a clubfoot is not immoral, and neither is being born blind or with a predisposition for alcoholism. These are simply afflictions for which the sufferer is not at fault, and can only call forth our sympathy. On the other hand, if someone born with normal feet wanted to give himself a clubfoot through surgery, we would find this at the very least irrational; and if someone concluded from his having a genetic predisposition for alcoholism that regularly drinking to excess would be a worthwhile “lifestyle” for him to pursue, then we would regard him as sorely mistaken, even if he could do this in a way that allowed him to hold down a job, keep his friends and family, and avoid car accidents, Even amid the depravity of modern civilization, most people realize that the life of an alcoholic is simply not a good thing, even if the alcoholic himself thinks it is and even if he “doesn’t hurt anybody else.” We know in our bones that there is something ignoble and unfitting about it. In the same way, should it turn out that a desire to molest children has a genetic basis, no one would conclude from this that sexual attraction toward children is a good thing, even if the person who has it was able to satisfy his urges without actually touching any children. We all know in our bones that someone obsessed with masturbating to pictures of naked toddlers is sick, and not living the way a human being ought to live, even if he never leaves the darkness of his own room and his own soul.
Now I realise that many people in the modern age do in fact have these reactions and, indeed, would write them off as mere reactions. Our tendency to find something personally depraved doesn’t show that there is anything objectively wrong with it. Here’s the rub: This is the sort of stupidity masquerading-as-insight that absolutely pervades modern intellectual life, and it has the same source as so many other contemporary intellectual pathologies: The abandonment of the classical realism of the great Greek and Scholastic philosophers, and especially of Aristotle’s doctrine of the four causes. For we need to ask why there is a universal, or near universal, reaction of disgust to certain behaviours, and why certain traits count as unnatural even if there is a genetic factor underlying them. And when the evolutionary psychologists, et al., have had their say, there can still be no satisfying answer to these questions that does not make reference to Aristotelian final causes – even if only because there can be no satisfying explanation of almost anything that doesn’t make reference to final causes.
On a personal note, I am straight. I do not have a homosexual orientation, nor have I ever had a homosexual orientation. I have never committed any homosexual sins. But I do not bear hatred or undue prejudice against gays and lesbians. I merely recognize that they have gone astray from the path of truth and righteousness.
There is much in life which is very hard – usually it is hard to do the right thing. However, the scriptural position is clear and is written in clear and unambiguous statements. I would like to see everyone sincerely repent of their sins and be welcomed as full members of the community of believers.
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Yes, you are right about what apologists say, but there is a very clear case to be made for saying it is sinful. Men and women are often inspired by lust to cheat on their spouses, it is natural, it is to do with hormones. It is wrong for the same reason active homosexuality is – it contravenes what God wants for us. That is the only argument that matters, and the only one that works too 🙂
We are a fallen race, much that is natural comes from that. We are to repent of our sins, and this inclination is a sin if we act on it, as is adultery and fornication – all of which are ‘natural’.
if you do not accept Christian morality, then indeed there is nothing immoral in homosexuality, but we are, here, talking about Christians and how we proceed as Christians with fellow Christians who have this inclination.
What you say about Aristotelianism is correct, but it has gone and it isn’t coming back.
In the meantime we have Christians in the church who need care and love, and we know that simply telling them what they may do or want to do is ‘sinful’ is not working. So in trying what love might accomplish, we are loving the sinner and trying to help them come to reject the sin. That is the only way it will ever have a chance of working in our society.
If anyone has a better one, I am in the market.
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Homosexual acts, as well as every other kind of serious sin, are acts of the free will. Thus, these acts are sins for which each is personally responsible.
Its true we are responsible for our sins, if we die unsaved.
Its my understanding that most homosexuals didn’t chose to be that way. Some commit suicide because they don’t like who they are and social pressure and what not.
I believe it is a demon, and as such, can be removed. But only by prayer and fasting.
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So some say, but most say not. This is a not as much a puzzle to me as it is to some. We are a fallen race, and for some, one consequence is same sex attraction; for others adultery or fornication; for others greed; for others anger. These are ‘natural’ in so far as they are part of the consequences of the Fall of man on our nature.
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And, often for Episcopalians, at least, compounded by pride. Which is one of the seven deadly sins, for a reason! Or at least that is my reaction to their response!
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I am afraid so. They are sure they are right and everyone else, and the whole of our tradition wrong; I think that’s a pretty sound definition of pride!
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Strikes me as so, especially with such a novel teaching!
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Yes, I sometimes think that there is a new commandment – anything that is new is best!
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Yep, and conservatives remain wary of novelty!
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Ah, your knowledge of scripture shines forth. Sin is sin , and we are all guilty. There is no worster sin than another.Break one commandment and you’ve broken them all. Therefor, I am a murderer. Homosexuality isn’t one of the commandments, but we are assured homosexuals wont enter into gods rest. I firmly believe anyone can ask fo Jesus to come in and ssup, and when HE does, that one is coverd in the blood of the Lamb, and god sees the righteousness of Christ instead of the sinner. I believe the demon of homosexuality will leave at that point, but one can still struggle with it , or, be completely set free. But still, they met Jesus and now know what is rite and wrong.
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I agree – we are all sinners, and one of the easiest sins to commit is to criticise others for sins to which one is not attracted – and hope no one will notice your own sins; God does.
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Yes, that is how it goes. Not what shoes we wear or how expensive or car is. its war in the spirit world. We condemn others for being homosexual, while we are guilty of the same. Jesus made it clear that humans are all in the same sinking ship.
The Anglican religion had a big meeting to deal with what people do with their reproductive organs. The state run religion centerd in Rome is totally obsessed with gonads. To become a member of its staff, one has to swear not to bandie about ones sex organs.
That’s what one gets for belonging to a religion.
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I think what you get, dear Bosco, is Jesus.
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As an ex-member of the Church of England I have personally known two Archbishops of Canterbury, George Carey and Rowan Williams, both through contact as an Anglican religious brother in the 1980s before either of them were made Cantuar, then later in that century and in the present century as a teacher in the school of which both were patrons – the Archbishop’s School in Canterbury, a CofE church school. By the time I knew them in the second circumstance, as a teacher, I had already converted to the Catholic Church – yet happened to have a professional teaching position in that excellent CofE school, where we used to walk the whole school into Canterbury cathedral and have our Dedication Service at the start of the year, sitting in the choir a few feet away from the shrine of St Thomas a Becket, one of the greatest shrines in mediaeval Catholic Christendom.
As a Catholic, I have a continuing and unshakable residual respect for the good old CofE; and you may remember my comments, on more than one occasion – including my article (much derided by Catholics) in the Tablet in November 2009 – when I have often said that the Catholic Church does not do pastoral care anything like as well as the CofE !
But the CofE is not essentially a worldwide Christian communion in the same way that the Catholic Church is, and never has been, and is never now likely to become one. The historical phenomenon of colonialism produced the circumstances of the CofE broadening its influence outside of the British Isles, beginning in a very small way in the 17th century in places like Bermuda – then rapidly expanding with the Empire in the 19th century when the CofE was planted in the far corners of the world in every place that was marked red (or pink) on the British map. When we began the great programme of handing back the countries we had administered in a programme of independence, many CofE people in those countries wanted to maintain the ties and an Anglican Communion resulted – with its four-points of the compass symbol, which was more a logo of world geography than a recognizable traditional Christian symbol.
Therefore I will not mourn the passing of the Anglican Communion, for its time has come, and its break-up is inevitable. It was rooted in a history which is now a distant past, and like the Commonwealth it still allows a sentimental connection with Britain while the reality is that many of the Anglican churches in ex-colonial countries have a vibrant Christianity that is more in tune with traditional Christian values than the average CofE congregation in the country which once brought the Gospel to them.
Those two Archbishops of Canterbury I knew and talked with on numerous occasions were from different CofE traditions, one Evangelical and one Catholic, but both had the same fighting task of holding the Anglican Communion together. They lived in a time when it was still just about possible to hold the reins. Those days are over.
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I think he was an ‘observer’ – hope he wasn’t German or Belgian 🙂
I think we are at the stage where if those who are militant on this cannot stay, they are going to have to man up and say so rather than, as they want, blaming the rest of us for throwing them out so they can play the much-coveted victim card.
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Off topic, I went to my local church to Mass at 9.00 am. First there was a recitation of the Rosary between the 7:30 and 9:00, then the use of incense together with a Deacon…it was borderline Traditional Dave. At the end as i was leaving I asked the Deacon how many in the RCIA, he said, “about 17-18.”
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That’s great David. Next time, ask him how many former Episcopalians are in the group. 🙂
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Good point. And by the way, looking at the photo of the Anglican primates, I see there’s a cardinal in there. (Look: in the crimson cassock on the Archbishop of Canterbury’s right.) Is he a spy?
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Good point Gareth. Maybe he’s trying to get some pointers from the Anglicans that will help us fudge our way around the issues for a few more decades. 🙂
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His words are a ludicrous palimpsest of prejudices. Do you know any homosexuals who exhibit all these tendencies? Do no heterosexuals? Honestly, your ability to identify yourself with such prejudice is not a good sign. One day you will wake up.
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Maybe he had a vision of a gay pride parade in San Francisco. I think you will find then, that his words are an apt expression of what he saw. 🙂
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That would be rather like judging Roman Catholics by the excesses of the fires of Smithfield. I do think people have to stop thinking that extremists on any side are somehow representative of the whole, simply because they aren’t. It would be like saying all Catholics are like those who go to clown masses 🙂
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I think you underestimate the numbers at these parades (all over the globe) . . . an equivalence to clown Masses is not even close. LGBT groups with political and religious clout battle daily . . . and are winning in the schools, in the media, in the courts, in the political arena, in the sciences and even (now) inside of many of our faiths. I can’t find another equivalent . . . and it appears you have bought into much of their arguments . . . even if you don’t like their parades you do accept those arguments that would make this sin a non-essential moral choice rather than a sin that can lead a soul to hell. It might be better to respect their souls more than their person.
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Let’s see, what are our real options here? These parades and these militants are not going to go away because we tell them they are sinners; they are, on the whole, not going to repent either. There is nothing we can do about the wider society.
What, though, about those gay people who are Christians? You seem to be lumping them in with the activists, which I am not sure is right. What are we to say to those who feel that what we say is sin is natural for them? If, as we must, we are saying there is a call to celibacy, we have to support and engage with them, not just hammer away at something many of them know is a sin. It is about supporting these people to live the sort of life many of them want to lead. It is also about not accepting the militant agenda is as important as they insist.
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To your first paragraph. True.
To the second paragraph. It is up to the offender of any mortal sin to seek private counsel from the Church. It is not the responsibility to make it look like we are taking the ‘world’s’ definiation and excuses as the starting point for a public debate. Who made it public? They did. Who denied private counsel? No-one.
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Except that many of those you are talking about, the gay militants, aren’t part of the Church, so it is not going to happen.
It is our responsibility to minister to those within our communions, and we can’t do that by stigmatising them as QV would like.
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Isn’t it funny how these non Christian worldly gays are taking their fight specifically to the Catholics? They disrupt our Masses as though they were. Or are the ones that come into our churches and desecrate our holy spaces members of the Church and demanding change? I’m not sure we know the answer to that.
Who is stigmatizing them. We state the morality of the Church and if the shoe fits then they wear it or find a new set of shoes.
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Not really, as they take it to my Church too. And I can see why. The Churches have spent a good long time stigmatising homosexuality, which to those who feel that way also feels like they are being stigmatised. Treat people badly and oddly, when they get the chance, they’ll do the same to you. That’s why we’re trying other ways – the old ways are what has produced this deplorable situation.
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Well I never saw them so badly treated . . . poor things. In fact, I and many other young men, were hit-upon by these hedonists on buses, planes, trains etc. quite in the public view. They were not behind bars in this country at least . . . though many a mother and father would have preferred that solution to these public nuisances. They have thrust themselves into this morality war . . . and I choose to oppose them rather than cheerlead them. Actually, I tend to try to ignore them . . . though you seem to think that this is really important to talk about. I don’t. It is just another manifestation of evil in our day. I’m not looking for confrontation . . . they are. Otherwise, I leave them to their own devices. They know the teachings of the Church if they are Christians and can personally seek help or not. That is their personal struggle, not mine.
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In my country we locked them up, we chemically castrated them and we had laws which did this. That seems to me State sponsored persecution, and being hit on by gay people is not, I think, in quite the same league.
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Not sure how our psychiatrists treated them in the day . . . as they are always a bit batty themselves.
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Until recently it was classified as a mental disorder – a line of thought which has clearly worked well.
In a way this is my point. We have tried criminalising this, repressing it and condemning it, none of these things have worked. They have effectively created a them and us situation in which people hurl abuse at each other from across a chasm they have both created. The one thing we have not tried is what my Church is trying. We can do no worse than all the other ‘solutions’ which have failed. But if we fail, we might do so without leaving behind a legacy of mutual hatred.
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I would agree with this wholeheartedly, my good friend, if I actually saw, as you do, a path that your Church is trying. I don’t see it trying to do anything at all but co-exist which is what this world has come to do in everything.
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Had it been doing just that, it would have allowed a schism, which would have been much easier. What is being tried is the effect of a condemnation which falls short of that.
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If you say so . . . it looks like capitulation to me. As I will capitulate to your understanding of your Church’s actions. 🙂
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well, to those on the other side it looks like bigotry, so we must be doing something right 🙂 xx
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I’ll capitulate to them on their viewpoint as well. Time will see if this holds as is, poinsons the Communion with the same problems that are in the Amercan church or if it fails and is finally routed from their midst.
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Oh I suspect, being a pessimist, that the Americans who want to go this way will do so, but what they can’t claim is that we didn’t give them a chance and fair warning, neither can they legitimately claim (though it isn’t stopping some of them) that we are bigots 🙂 xx
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Of course you have been telling them this for many decades now and they don’t listen to a word you say. Sooo . . . we’ll just see what will happen. Calling you bigots is part of their charm. 🙂 xx
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We love them though they despitefully use us – hard stuff 🙂 xx
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Yes they are and they are trying to sway your members to their own views; and I would not underestimate their effectiveness if I were you. 🙂 xx
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It isn’t working, and not only with me. That Primates’ meeting showed most of the COmmunion is not buying it 🙂 xx
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True, but not showing anyone that this is a departure of belief and thus a break in communion. Public witness of our respective Churches has been sorely soft, hesitant and accommodating (whilst saying nothing has changed). the continuance of ‘communion’ belies their restatement of established moral principles. We’ve done the same in the RCC, sadly, on many of the present day ‘issues’ that contradict out traditional teachings. 🙂 xx
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Well, this time we have suspended them from some activities, so there is a clear message that what they have done is wrong. If they persist in sin, then they can never say they did so with permission, or a blind eye (don’t ask, don’t tell) from the rest of us 🙂
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O the severity of the pain they must be feeling. LOL
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They are very sensitive you know – they tell us often enough 🙂 xx
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How could we ever forget it dear friend. 🙂 xx
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If we were in any danger, the screeching would alert us 🙂 xx
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Indeed the screeching never ends. 🙂 xx
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Yes, you are right, I am a fraud and a liar, and I have often been found defending murder and gay marriage.
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If you could just point out where I have not repeatedly condemned the sin, then I might begin to think you’ve read what I’ve written, as opposed to doing a Bosco, which is coming here to say what you have to say regardless of what has been posted.
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Perhaps you have been asleep in Wooky Hollow? Outside your head, ‘it’ has been destigmatised, or rather, people who have that inclination are no longer stigmatised. This clearly grieves you, but I am sure you will get over it and man up a bit.
That you equate being attracted to the same sex with murder and the other thinks shows, alas, what a prejudice person can convince himself of. I am only amazed you have not mentioned paedophilia.
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No, it means it is one of those things you struggle with – a fact of everyday life.
You offer precisely nothing by way of how a church deals with those who feel that way inclined except to tell them they are sinners. Yes, they are, so am I so are you. The happy thing for you is that your sins don’t prevent you from having a happy family life. The sad thing for me and for others, is our sins do. Yes, were I a catholic, I could go and get a Tribunal to say there were technical grounds which meant my marriage wasn’t a marriage – but unlike you, I find no satisfaction in sophistry and playing with words. I was married, my husband left me, he divorced me and I am going to be by myself for the rest of my life – I have the Grace to accept that, and it makes me more sensitive than you (but then your average rock manages that) to the plight of other sinners, whose sins put them in a similar position.
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As I had expressed no equivocation about the sin, I had every right to wonder what you were going on about – and did so.
In the actual real world, what you claim happens so often does not, because of the sort of attitude you evince – it puts people off coming forward, and many priests are uncomfortable with the whole thing and prefer to refer people to counselling – and oddly, the NHS won’t counsel you for this, so the waiting lists for anyone who is concerned about this are very long indeed.
We are all different, and what matters here is that we do not put off anyone who might be willing to come forward by the appearance of uncharitableness.
It would be easy for me to condemn sexual sins, as I am not inclined to any of them, or indeed, to the thing at all. But I think it is my duty as a Christian to condemn the sin in a manner which makes it clear that the sinner is more than welcome to come and talk and find love and understanding – and a way to renounce the sin.
Is that not what really matters here?
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No one is talking about not telling the truth. But we have a choice how we do it: do we do so in a way that makes us feel “that’s told ’em”, or do we do it in a way which makes them think “OK, if they put it like that, I’m listening and want to know more”.
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Not if you are a vegetarian 🙂
No one has watered anything down. We have told the Episcopalians they are wrong. They don’t agree. We have refused to treat this as the number one issue in Christendom, and we are wise to do so.
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I thought you were generally in favour of following your Primates unless they were advocating sin. Mine aren’t, mine judge the issue is not sufficient for a break, I go with that. I. Since I do not agree that same sex marriage is on a par with murder, I remain in the world of the sane and leave you to your world where the two are parallels.
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Unlike you, we practice open communion, and unlike you, we don’t believe that calling people names is very adult.
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Sorry, do remind me where Our Lord says that those who are not with him are against him?
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You could just admit you haven’t got an answer – everyone else can see that.
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🙂
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Jesus said little else – I just can’t find it in my Bible.
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Except, that is, millions of Christians world wide.
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No, but there is no mention of closed communion – your church does it, fine, but one day your church will realise it isn’t the only one – or it probably won’t, but frankly, no one much cares any more.
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Of course it will. Have you thought about Jock’s suggestion? You’ve more in common with the wee frees than your own church.
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How easy it is not to try to understand, how childish to resort to insults. Somehow, I am surprised by neither gambit.
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No, but cliche seems to be yours 🙂
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My answer was clear, The novelty was your church instituting it – unless you can show me that it was practised in Acts, which you have not shown me.
What it smacks of is not thinking you have to be a member of the RCC to know Jesus. There is precisely no evidence for this. There is a good deal of evidence that a minority of RCC priests do not know Jesus at all.
Closed communion, closed minds and closed ranks. Made for a pretty toxic situation at times. best of luck with that.
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I could never deny what I know, which is that I put my heart and soul into that marriage, and so, for a while, did he. Like so many silly men, he had his head turned by a pretty pair of legs, and as a result, broke vows we both made. I cannot do that, not under any conceivable circumstances.
The gift this has given me, though, is some insight into those who will also have to live celibate lives, and who, unlike me, still feel those urges. I do what I can, and it seems to help quite a few.
This sin makes it so easy for the sinner to feel he or she is also being condemned, and so it is important, if we are to bring people to where they need to be, that we show them that we mean it when we say we love them, and it is because of that love we hate the sin – as much as they usually do when they are honest.
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Only a person blind to history could deny that to those on the receiving end, the distinction has not been as clear as what you say here.
Of course, if you can show me where the Church campaigned against the State sentencing homosexuals to hard labour or offering them chemical castration, I shall be happy to applaud – but can you?
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As ever, you wriggle. I asked whether the Church, which you seem to be claiming as been compassionate always to homosexuals, had said anything about things such as chemical castration, and instead of answering ‘no’, which would be the simple truth, you equivocate with some meaningless generalisation.
Again, in the context of condemning the sin but loving the sinner, I asked if the Church had ever done anything to show this in the era when the State jailed the sinner, and you can’t just say ‘it never did.’ Yet this is why gay people distrust Christians. And when Christians are asked a straight question, they give a bent answer.
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I am sure that made all the difference, and that those punished knew the Church loved them but hated only the sin (that is me being sarky).
Chemical castration was offered as an alternative to being put in prison. What a wonderful way of showing you care for the person. Turing killed himself after it.
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You’re right. If someone is killed they are dead and can’t be brought back to life, and nothing the murderer can do can do that. This is not, oddly enough, the case with homosexual acts. You try to work with them with that analogy and see where you get. it is more important to you that you get your view across than that you help the sinner. I know which way seems more Christ-like.
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Of course it does. No doubt you still misread the story of Sodom that way. I hate to break it to you that few, if any, reputable Biblical scholars agree.
I wondered when you’d get to equating loving, consensual human relationships with sex with animals.
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I have to bow before your knowledge of when men like Tom Wright and Richard Bauckham believe. What a wonderful insight you have into men’s souls.
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In which case that is a vague and meaningless generalisation based on your own prejudice. Did anyone suggest Divinity at Cambridge was typical of anything?
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I did, but you dismissed the names and preferred unsubstantiated personal opinion.
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And you wonder why homosexuals think you hate them? Go figure.
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Mr Spock was such a good example.
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Not at all, I am suggesting just that – and since this is a public site, you might bear that in mind – or you mightn’t.
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Yes, I am sorry to make your rigid mind think outside the tram lines, but it is what many people do in the world – think for themselves and not take on board the opinions of others as though they’d thought it through 🙂
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One never knows 🙂 x
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Ok, I am coming out of hiding to comment just a bit. 🙂
I have read a lot of the comments, although not all, and I think that what you (Jessica) are trying to say is that we should condemn homosexuality, but in a much nicer way than has often been done in the past. In other words, instead of thundering that homosexuals are depraved beasts (or something to that effect), we should tone down our words, and tell them that we understand that they are dealing with something difficult, but that we want them to come to the truth that their sin is wrong.
Correct me if I am wrong, but that is what I think the gist is.
This is a tough one, and to be honest, I can see both sides.
I have little personal approval for those who claim to be working out of “charity” but who hit others over the head with no attempt to still show the person that they are loved.
On the other hand, there is the danger of being too “soft,” and giving the appearance of acceptance despite the fact that one still wants to condemn the sin.
So where do we go? What do we do?
I agree with my old friend Dave that we do have to take a stand in the same way that we would any other sin. If people do not hear how bad sin is, they are likely to get the impression that it is not such a terrible thing, and even though we might slide the message in that it is bad, what they are ultimately hearing is that it is really ok in some round about way.
Nonetheless, there does have to be a balance. I have heard it said that a priest should be a lion in the pulpit, but a lamb in the confessional. I think that is a good starting point to think about how to handle this.
Sin should always be strongly condemned, but with the caveat that for the sinner, nothing but mercy and love will be shown.
This is a delicate balance which all good preachers should have, and yet it is one that very few do: the ability to condemn sin, yet show that they will love and welcome the repentant sinner.
I think this is what we should be after; to teach those in these positions of leadership how to have this balance, and how to express it clearly.
After all, it is something of a psychological phenomenon whereby people will initially be attracted to the one that attempts to smooth the truth over, but in the long term, they will come to completely disrespect that person. I think it is sort of like the child who envies their friend with the lenient parent, but years later is glad they had a parent that guided them with a firm but loving hand. (Yet vice versa for the overly strict parent – they too will never win the real love and respect of the child.)
All spiritual parents need to learn how to walk this balance. Condemn clearly, even passionately. Show all the ugliness for what it is. Yet reveal the love and tenderness for the sinner, and the willingness to welcome with open arms. This is what the Church needs more than anything, not either or. Every child needs a firm but loving father. Anything else is just a nightmare of too much strictness, or too much lenience.
That is just my thoughts. 🙂
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I can’t better this, which is spot on and just right.
We can only tell the Episcopalians that what they have done is wrong. We cannot make them undo their sin, but we can say that it is sin and that as a result they cannot represent us on inter-faith bodies as they do not speak for us.
The traditional method – saying we love the sinner and condemn the sin, has left the sinners unimpressed and given them the opportunity to say we are hypocrites as we do nothing to show that love. We are now doing this. I do not expect them to change their mind, but if we split, it may be with a less bitter after-taste – thank you so much for this 🙂 xx
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You are welcome. 🙂
I do not know much about the debate, as I have been staying out of things, but as long as they are speaking up that it is wrong, then that is good. You are right that we cannot force others to undo their sin, but we can speak up, like you said.
I do have to admit that I am on the side of the traditional method – although, as with many things of late, I have to put a different explanation on the traditional method (hence why I am a traditionalist who is not a traditionalist, in a very particular way).
I think that the “traditional” method tends to lean much too heavily on strictness in practice (not in theory), and while those who use that method may say, “oh, but I do this out of charity,” it never FEELS like charity, and can do much damage.
So for example, I could totally support a fire and brimstone sermon on homosexuality, as long as it was equally passionate about love for the sinner. The sad thing is, that balance is so rare, and very few have it. (I know that if I was a preacher, I would need a lot of grace to have it. It is human nature to lean one or the other way at times, depending on the situation.) The damage that was done by all of that strictness without balance is why, I think, so many in the 60s and beyond tried to lean towards the softer messages, and caused a lot of confusion.
I am not happy at all with this uber STRICTNESS that I see re-emerging in many circles, especially as I truly believe that in the great restoration of the Church, that balance of passion for the sinner with passion to point out the sin will be one of its shining merits. Who could not love a father who clearly protects and guides with a firm but loving hand that protects the soul from being hurt by its words but gets the truth in there anyways, and makes the soul feel loved? That is the sort of father that would be beloved beyond any.
In other words, I could take a Saint Bernardine of Siena, as long as he was just as passionate and clear about his love for the sinner and his desire to bring them in and tell them/show them how loved they are. I think all the great saints had that balance, which is why it is so hard to find.
It takes a saint. 🙂
Here is to the hope and prayer that more clergy will understand this, and beg God for the grace to have that fine balance which every soul needs, and deep down in, truly hungers for I think. 🙂
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As so often, you say it best. 🙂 xx I can’t improve on this, and I can only hope and pray that by providing an example of love and censure, we can yet prevent a schism. This issue is not as important as it is being made to appear, and that seems to be lost in this discussion. 🙂
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Thank you Jessica. 🙂 You must be an asset to those around you who are concerned about the issue at this time. I think for many there is a fear to take up the right balance, as it is never easy, and is often only appreciated long after the fact. They can always use a good voice to support them. I hope that you are having a beautiful British evening! Enjoy a sip of wine for me if you can! 🙂
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This evening, I shall – have mailed separately on other things 🙂 xx
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Thank you. 🙂 I will check. Cheers!
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🙂 xx
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