One characteristic of the Church of England is that, rather like the English (being half-Welsh and half-German I can say these things) it is quite self-deprecating. It is used to being accused of being ‘wishy-washy’ and of just about anything else people can think of. Like all churches in the Western world, it has seen its numbers decline, and, being the National Church, it has come in for a deal of criticism as to its contribution to this sad state of affairs. What you don’t see it doing is to boast about itself – that would be very un-English. Being very un-English (in my ancestry anyway) I want to speak up for it.
My Church believes that Scripture, Reason and Tradition should be used in tandem when trying to understand what we are meant to do as Christians. In doctrinal terms it continues to do what it has always done, which is to strike a balance between the severity of Calvinism and the legalism one sometimes finds in other Churches. Although not used as often as it was, our Prayer Book (a masterpiece of English writing) and its XXXIX Articles, and its liturgy and Creed are enormously helpful in giving a sense of continuity. The Church provides enough forms of service to suit all tastes, but they remain within a liturgical framework, and allow any minister who wants, to avoid both the excesses of personal taste by the parson and the congregation. As ever, it tries to strike a happy medium; as so often, the medium seems less happy when struck!
In that search for balance, it is very open about the wide spectrum of liturgical and theological preferences. There are, as ever, those who insist that the end of the liturgical spectrum they prefer should be the one which predominates. As an Anglo-Catholic, I prefer a liturgy which is far closer to the Extraordinary Form in Roman Catholicism than it is to the Novus Ordo Mass – indeed, whenever I go to one of the latter, I am amazed at how Protestant it is in tone and style. I kneel at the altar rail to receive the Lord on my tongue, I do not join a queue to have him thrust into my hand. At the other end, there are those who want something which would make even a ‘Clown Mass’ look seemly. The good news is that we can all find somewhere that suits us – and being English, can feel smugly superior to that lot over there who don’t do as we do; we can also then apologise at confession.
The Church of England has also been the home to some marvellous creative minds. In terms of poetry, George Herbert, Charles Wesley (whose hymns are simply glorious), John Keble, and John Henry Newman (most of whose poetry was written whilst he was an Anglican), Tennyson, T.S. Eliot and R.S. Thomas are all products of our tradition. When it comes to music, Anglican Choral Evensong is one of the glories of Christianity – it you aren’t familiar with it, try this.
So quiet are we about what is good about our system, is we forget how amazing our ecclesiastical system can be. The curacy system is a marvellous training method, a bit like an apprenticeship, which gives the ordinand time to adapt him or herself to the demands parish life puts on a priest. The parish system means that we are here whenever someone wants us. We are the only Church with a commitment to provide pastoral care in every parish – even if it means, as it often does now, that we have to cover five or six or seven churches. If someone wants access to a clergyman and is unchurched, it tends to be to us they come – simply because we are there. For all the good-humoured banter directed at our bishops, men of the calibre of NT Wright or Rowan Williams, make a permanent contribution to Christian theology outside our own church. They do a grand job, usually unsung, and they act as fathers, and now mothers, in the faith to all. Equally important is our tradition of education. Our parish schools provide a great place for children to learn the basics of the faith, whilst our Training Colleges, provide aspirants to the Ministry with an excellent and rigorous training. It is no accident that there have been and continue to be so many good Anglican theologians.
We retain a willingness to discuss difficult issues in public rather than in coded ecclesiastical-speak, which can give the impression we are permanently arguing; but we think that better than trying to claim everyone is on the same page really when they aren’t. We’ve managed to work our way through difficult theological issues such as women in the ministry, and if it has taken us 25 years to get most people on the same page, and if we have lost some wonderful people in the process, we have done it.
We also, of course, have a wonderful Supreme Governor, Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth II, not one of whose pronouncements has ever had to be explained away by a spin doctor. During her reign she has seen seven Popes reign, and met most of them. Her Coronation Oath bound her in God’s name to serve her people faithfully – something she has done since 1952 and continues to do in her ninetieth year, with a schedule of engagements which would daunt someone twenty years younger. She lives her faith, and has set an example of faithful service which inspires many of us.
I could go on, but shan’t, this is already un-Anglican enough. Yes, I know there is a pile of stuff on the other side of the scale, as there is with every Church, but I just wanted to sing a small paean of praise to my Church. I’ll stop now 😳 (quietly walks away …).
Grandpa Zeke said:
Jessica, I was sailing along easily enjoying your paean but then was caught up short by “this is already un_Anglican enough.” If you can or want to, please help me understand what is un-Anglican about what you have written. PS No need to quietly walk away, in my opinion, I am always mindful that this is not a “Catholic blog” even though the Catholic voices tend to talk louder at times than many others. Keep up the faith. 🙂
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Grandpa Zeke said:
Oh, I think I see, it has to do with being self-deprecating and quiet about your Church. Sometimes I’m a little dense. 😦
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JessicaHof said:
No, that’s me being very Anglican 🙂 xx
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Grandpa Zeke said:
Ha! now I’m utterly confused. ;o
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JessicaHof said:
I’m glad you got it Zeke – that’s another Anglican thing – irony 🙂 xx
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Grandpa Zeke said:
I’ll bear that in mind. 🙂
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JessicaHof said:
🙂 xx
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Jock McSporran said:
An Ode to the Queen
All hail Great Britain’s Queen!
Long may she live in health, happy and serene;
Loved by her subjects at home and abroad;
Blest may she be when lying down
To sleep, and rising up, by the Eternal God;
Happy may her visions be in sleep …
And happy her thoughts in the day time;
Let all loyal subjects drink to her health
In a flowing bumper of Rhenish Wine.
And when the final hour shall come to summon her away,
May her soul be wafted to the realms of bliss,
I most sincerely do pray, to sing with saints above,
Where all is joy, peace and love –
In Heaven, for evermore to reign,
God Save the Queen. Amen.
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orthodoxgirl99 said:
You sell it very well Jess! Now I am two excellent blogs behind in respect of contributory comments….but alas, the comments will have to wait until the end of the day – if I am not too weary that is. No doubt there will be a heap of interesting comments to this for me to read before I even set down my thoughts on the laptop! I will leave it here for the moment with one image that sticks in my head at present: the C of E reminds me of a rather large, unwieldy ship bobbing around on the open sea with many hands on the Bridge, all trying to grab the Wheel and steer it in their particular direction! Back later 🙂
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JessicaHof said:
I can see that, but I think we know where it is going – and it is up to the Holy Ghost whether we get there 🙂 Thank you so much for the kind comments.
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NEO said:
It does sometimes seem like the CofE has plenty of helmsmen, but a shortage of navigators, or a problem in hearing on deck. 🙂
But I suspect, the CofE is much like its big sister, Rome, and for that matter the general Lutheran church. We all could use better Gators! 🙂
Good article dearest friend 🙂 xx
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JessicaHof said:
Thank you kindly 🙂 xx
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NEO said:
No Problem. 🙂 xx
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Dave Smith said:
Hi Jess. You mention a wide spectrum of worship (like the present day RCC) where it spans the gamut from traditional modalities to new and novel modalities within the C of E. Likewise you have presented us with some notables from the faith that you look up to. I would be interested in knowing of what modality most of these were: either raised with or preferred in their religious upbringing and spiritual growth.
It is one of those things we do not speak of too much in this country but it seems in the RCC that the closer one gets to the tradtionalist faith the richer we are in art, music, prayer, saints, theological thought: e.g. the making of a lasting mark on the Church (in a positive way).
What people clamor for and are given in response to their particular wishes is of little or no lasting value (spritually speaking) . . . and in fact, it seems to me, are like dust which will simply be blown away and forgotten in short order.
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JessicaHof said:
One of the nice things about our system is that it insulates the vicar from the congregation to a large extent – can be good given what some would want.
I would, of course, say that the Anglo-Catholic end of the spectrum has been the most fruitful 🙂 xx
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Dave Smith said:
As I would have expected, my friend. Seems that the latest craze in ‘church’ is to stop grooming the dog for fear of offending the fleas and ticks. 🙂 xx
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orthodoxgirl99 said:
Yes Jess, I would agree with that. The ACs have a good reputation for being faithful servants of Christ when it comes to really delivering loving, pastoral care at the very margins of society and by their prayerfulness and devotion shine God’s light into the darkest of places. In a small village Church I know of (which is devoted to maintaining the Catholic faith as it was brought to England) and near where I live has a long history and tradition of faithful worshippers who came from all the surrounding villages. A true reflection of the depth of love, prayerfulness and spirituality of the AC clergy who have served there. This is still true today, with the exception of a period of decline some 9 years ago. The assistant priests in particular are strong holders of the AC faith and are determined to see that maintained, even in the face of others who would like to see it ‘disappear’. Happily, the faithful who worship there today are a broad mixture of older people, middle aged and young families, with several of the young boys now trained at the Altar and received into the Servants of the Guild of the Sanctuary. So the next generation are being taught and hopefully, will continue to grow in their faith and I hope, will grow into devout and loving Christians. The C of E has done itself, in my view, much harm over the last 20 odd years and one of the reasons I left it in the ’90s….but if the ACs have to cope with the liberal brigade, at least now Synod has passed the 5 Guiding Principles which will at least reduce the modernists’ efforts to eradicate them all together.
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JessicaHof said:
Thank you so much. I can understand, knowing C, those Anglicans who have had enough and crossed the Tiber – but like to think we have reached a stage where we can find some kind of modus vivendi – time will tell 🙂 xx
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ginnyfree said:
Oh Yippie! I was wondering when you were gonna answer my last question to you Jess. Beautiful job. Thank you. I’ll comment later. Got too much to do and no time to do it. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Gareth Thomas said:
When the Dominican theologian Aidan Nichols wrote his theological history of Anglicanism “The Panther and the Hind” he dedicated it, with great ecumenical respect, “To Eric Lionel Mascall magistro catholicae veritatis”. (For those unfamiliar with Mascall see Fr Hunwicke’s blogpost from last year: http://liturgicalnotes.blogspot.com.es/2015/01/dr-eric-mascall-and-errors-of-walter.html ) In this excellent study of Anglicanism, Nichols concludes that these “three churches within one” are so separate that “no satisfactory ecumenical negotiations can ultimately be carried out with it”. He refers to organic reunion here. Then he goes on to suggest an “Anglican Uniate community which might be relatively small but having its own canonical structure…” Yes, of course: the Anglican Ordinariate as given to those who had been asking for it, for twenty years, by Pope Benedict XVI.
In the light of other discussions at present on AATW, re. worshipping the “same God”, I also remember in passing that during the ARCIC discussions in the 1980s there was a book published on the discussions called “Their Lord and Ours” (ed. M.Santer, 1982)… a suitably ambiguous title!
As one who left the Anglican communion twice, I can only express my admiration for the traditions of Anglicanism, from the standpoint of the Catholic communion that I remain in now, and only left once. 🙂
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JessicaHof said:
Thank you Gareth – I think that it is hard for those outside to see what holds us together – we’re like one of those ancient stately homes that hangs together because it always has – remove the ivy or try to rationalise what we do and the whole thing would fall over.
It is noticeable that the problems come from the ‘Anglican Communion’, where we didn’t manage to export our tradition of irony and ‘fudge and mudge’. Sometimes, given the mysteries of the faith, it is best to leave things in the shadows of the cloisters 🙂
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Gareth Thomas said:
In fact it has always been an extraordinary Christian witness to hold together those three wings of the Anglican tradition (High, Low, and Liberal) for they all exerted a modifying effect and had to each justify themselves by reference to the same Scriptures and the same Holy Spirit. The turning point was the departure into narrow pressure group interests, which we now see in Catholicism too.
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JessicaHof said:
It is this last which is most to be regretted – and the C of E continues to try to cope with the pressure groups in its usual way – there are so many issues in the long grass that one cannot park there for long any more 🙂
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Jock McSporran said:
Gareth – when you joined these churches (Anglican and Roman Catholic), what were you trying to achieve? As far as I can see, it doesn’t really matter if the Anglican church is split into high, low and liberal – and whether there are other factions and pressure groups emerging, provided these church politics issues don’t impinge on the work of the vicar. That is, if the vicar at parish level is free to proclaim the Word, with substantial sermons Sunday morning and evening and at the midweek service – and he is allowed to get on with his pastoral duties in whatever way he sees fit, without interference from the church hierarchy, then I don’t see how the internal squabbles within the church affect his vocation all that much.
I think that the RCC is a bit of a disaster, though. The sermon tends to be a 10 minute homily, which isn’t taken very seriously by the person giving it – and the priest’s bishop would probably be down on him like a ton of bricks if he tried doing something serious.
If I were thinking of going into the ministry, I wouldn’t be looking at the squabbles within the denomination; I’d rather be looking at the opportunity to teach the Scriptures and the extent to which the church structures restricted me in this.
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Grandpa Zeke said:
I encouraged Gareth to write a book of his life story, he is a good writer and it would make a most interesting read. Just my two cents.
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Bosco the Great said:
Oh boy, I cant wait to be enraptured and enthralled reading about his religion hopping.
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Bosco the Great said:
I keep forgetting this is a protestant blog. The papists have hijacked it and hang me in efficacy daily.
My sympathy also lies in the most blessed Church of England. I shall soon be wed within its corridors.
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Grandpa Zeke said:
I think it is only the clown act that gets hung out to dry, Bosco.
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Steve Brown said:
But Bosco, you say to us almost daily you hate all religions. I guess you just like the building. How is your horse being allowed into…Oh, never mind, the C of E will marry anything and everybody.
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Bosco the Great said:
My fiancée Flicka is out at this very moment selecting a wedding dress. You are all invited to the wedding.
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Bosco the Great said:
Did I say wedding dress? My mistake. Flicka wants to wear a tuxedo. We will both be wearing tuxedos.
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Philip Augustine said:
I am a proponent of the Novus Ordo Mass. I say, let the mass be a celebration amongst the people. Although I welcome those to go to whatever liturgy they please in my Church. However, through the writings of St. Teresa of Avila, I understand it’s not the liturgy, the music, high culture, etc. responding to the people in the Extraordinary Form, The Tridentine Mass, etc. which generates faith. As St. Teresa of Avila recognizes Grace is already present that allows them draw from that water of faith, how much water is in the well of the person’s faith is determined by God. How do we draw upon this water? We pray. Is it possible the other more traditional forms could make people better at prayer? Perhaps, but I believe the modernists secular world that values materialism is more the culprit than liturgies. I would rather supply the thesis that these more traditional forms of the liturgy wouldn’t have prevented an exodus in the pews, these other philosophies of modernism, feminism, liberalism, communism, materialism, consumerism, etc. would have swayed them anyway.
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JessicaHof said:
One of the nice things about the C of E is that we don’t really do this ‘modernist’ ‘trad’ thing – we just go with whatever of the half a dozen or so liturgical forms suit the congregation and priest.
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Philip Augustine said:
It’s certainly a nice and envious sentiment. Personally, it irks me as a cradle Catholic to have those who convert to Catholicism tell me about all of my ‘heresies’ that I commit because of Vatican II. I often want to say, “Who do you think you are, the Pope?”
I don’t care if traditionalist want to attend and practice the Tridentine mass. I think much of it harkens back to the old tradition of heresy hunting… I don’t have time for such nonsense from the laity.
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JessicaHof said:
I am with you – if you are more Catholic than the Pope, you may not be a Catholic at all 🙂 x
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Dave Smith said:
Philip, I can understand your anger with converts who call you a heretic or what-have-you but then is this something that you have been accused of in any significant numbers as I don’t see this happening often. I also think that you are grouping individual converts into some self-appointed super-Catholic status. But then, most of these converts have had as poor a Catholic education as did the Catholics by birth who were taught by the same “lay” moms among whom the polls say 80% are contracepting and well over half think the Church should change its stance on homosexual unions and a host of other social and moral dilemmas that plague the Church at the moment.
What I have seen, is that among people who are converted to Catholicism, there is a higher instance of informed Catholics as to the teachings of the faith than there are in those who were brought up in the faith. This might be because, as you know, we have many voices in our Church which differ widely and most of these are spurious to say the least. What you should be claiming is that well-formed (and informed) Catholics, well-read in Catholic teaching have assented to believe ALL that the Church teaches are sometimes are more zealous in proclaiming the teachings of the Church where others are rather imperervious and content with the inconsistencies in teaching and the wide birth given to the idea of “personal choice” which is foreign to defined teaching. People tend to defend what they agree with and disagree with the Church or ignore that which they do not personally accept.
As to personal preferences to one form of liturgy to another, I give a wide birth of this “choice” which we had little of during our long history. Even within the Novus Ordo their are so many choices for the priest that there are over 2000 Masses possible if you multiply all the ‘options’ available. My problem with the Novus Ordo which I would have had even if having been raised in the faith, is that that the Center of the liturgy is not as overtly Christocentic as the Traditional Mass where it cannot be denied by anyone attending. And one must admit, that there are some Novus Ordo liturgies (a number of them if you get around the country much) that are more centered on “the people of God” . . . our wonderful selves. So if that is a preference fine . . . but yet it has almost become impossible for those of us who want the purely Christocentric Worship that we booted at Vatican II. Though we are told we can rightully ask for it . . . most folks have no idea how few these are and what sacrifices one might have to make in order to attend one. So it amounts to an empty act of lip-service which is not, in reality, a true choice that is offered. I just ask for as much freedom in choosing my liturgy as the people seem to demand from the Church in their social reconstruction of the liturgy and violations of the actual norms that Vatican II professed . . . most of which have been lost even to our memory, if we have lived that long. This Mass, is mostly a loose rubric that the bishops, priests and laity have been changing and developing on their own. What I see now is not what was given to us by the Fathers of the Council.
I’m just saying: we need not lump any group together as there is much finger pointing to be had no matter which side of these issues you fall. Our eyes are much better turned inward . . . for the traditionalists, whether born Catholic or converted, have some very valid problems that have not been addressed: but it seems that the social change issues, found most prominently in the NO church, are getting almost all of the attention (and sucking up all of the oxygen in the room) . . . for they clearly have the support even from the non-Catholic press. Finger pointing goes both ways I’m afraid.
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Philip Augustine said:
Yes, you are right, I should certainly try to have more mercy on my part.
You and I have discussed some what social issues with the Catholic Church and I am with the traditionalists with this accord. I think in many ways lies my frustration with the comments with traditionalist. Should there be more variety? Certainly. I would love to attend a mass of the Ambrosian rite someday. I will probably have to go to Milan to have the pleasure.
However, as much as Q and I have disagreed on liturgies, I would imagine we’re allies on the social teachings of the Church. So, if this is the case, why can you and I have found an understanding and Q and I seem to be lacking one?
I’ve tried to explain my position to him, how I enjoy out of my own tradition the Novus Ordo mass but I agree with the traditionalist on social teachings and he told me there is no middle ground.
So what position am I left to take?
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Dave Smith said:
I understand, Philip. It’s true that QVO will not ever nor does he think anyone should attend the Novus Ordo. That is fine and I have no problem with his love for the Traditional Mass and understand the problems that he sees in the new liturgy. That said, I attend the Novus Ordo as I have no choice given to me. At times I am able to focus and block out all the distractions but most of the time I don’t feel a difference between being inside the Church or outside in the world. So it is not easy for me to come from Mass feeling like I worshipped God . . . though I know that I received the Body and Blood of Christ . . . though in a most casual manner.
I think you are within your rights to take whatever position you feel is most appropriate regarding your sense of what is right and just. Like me with Bosco . . . I do not read his comments anymore nor do I engage. But that is consistent with what I had to think out over several years. It seemed the right choice for me; but it might not be for others.
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Philip Augustine said:
St. Theresa of Avila Autobiography, have you ever read it?
We can debate about the inner workings of the Church and the Mass. Her words have shown me that prayer is the key, which is why I quoted JP II’s comments using Islam to critique Christian prayer.
Many self confessed Christians don’t pray–most that I know. I think in a lot of ways this is the most pressing issue within the Church and all of Christianity. It seems a very small issue, but we’ve stopped communicating with God.
I think many, simply, don’t know how to pray or at least aren’t stressed how vital it is to our spirituality as Christians.
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Dave Smith said:
What you find in parishes that actually to stress prayer and devotions and has adult classes on such things is that the same small group of people are the same ones to show up every time. And they are the ones that already are the ones who are the prayer warriors of the parish.
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Jock McSporran said:
In response to Philip: if they don’t pray then they’re not Christians. This is a contradiction in terms.
Dave: The way to get round the problem that you mention is to take the view that the Sermon is the ‘adult class on such things’, extend it from the usual content-free 10 minute homily that seems to characterise many churches to a 40 or 50 minute serious study.
You’d find that the passengers (those who call themselves Christian but who are not) would rapidly decide never to darken the doors of the church again and your problem would be solved.
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Dave Smith said:
Jock, it hasn’t worked in most protestant churches. But that aside, the two-fold liturgy (liturgy of the word and the liturgy of the eucharist) wouldn’t allow it. We read an OT scripture, a NT scripture, a Psalm and a Gospel passage. The homily is usually based on the subject brought forth in all of these which are connected. So the homily usually does not go beyone 15 or 20 minutes. It isn’t the length of them that is the problem: it is that most are vacuous of Catholic Teaching and concern themselves with social justice type issues and usually never convict anyone’s conscience to the point of reforming themselves in light of the Scriptures.
As to you response to Philip, if I may: I wasn’t saying that they don’t pray; as they certainly pray at Mass and in other ways. What I am saying is that the old formation of priests left time during their day for meditation, saying the hours, praying the rosary etc. All of these are done by the better priests but on a whole they find themselves too busy with the running of the parish proper to indulge themselves in what should be their prime concern; their own spiritual growth. That is the result of the priest shortage firstly and of priestly formation secondarily.
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Jock McSporran said:
Dave – most churches (protestant or catholic) simply aren’t Christian.
I know that the minister of the church I attended in Edinburgh emptied his church before it filled up again. When he first came in 1957, they were used to 10 minute sermons, he started giving them 40 – 50 minute sermons which were filled with sound Christian content and very well put together.
He was minister at that church from 1957 – 97. He proved that it can work if (a) you have the guts to empty your church and (b) the Lord blesses your ministry.
You’re (of course) right to say that it’s the quality and content that are the most important. I have always found, though, that when people want the sermon cut back to something less than (say) 40 minutes, it’s basically because they don’t want to be challenged by the Word – and the church is much better off without such people.
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Dave Smith said:
I certainly agree with the last bit and I am certainly of the same mind about not having a problem emptying the pews due to be challenged spiritually with orthodox teaching. I would be happy to sit in an almost empty church that had such. But, as I say, it is hard to put into words how important the Liturgy of the Eucharist is to us. It is the center from which everything else flows: for it is Christ Himself that visits us and gives Himself to us as food for both our bodies and souls. To me, the biggest shortcoming today is that many have lost this belief and see it only as a sign of our mutual faith . . . though, truth be known, they have little mutual faith with the serious Catholic of deep prayer and understanding.
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Jock McSporran said:
Dave – even though we didn’t have a ‘liturgy’ as such, I see all the elements there. If we were working though a gospel (say Matthew) in the morning services, we might have an epistle (very often Romans) in the evening and something from the OT in the midweek service.
He usually had 6 hymns in the morning and 5 hymns in the evening, mostly by Charles Wesley or Isaac Watts, at least one of them was usually a paraphrased psalm. So, from the Sunday morning and evening services, the midweek service and the Saturday evening corporate prayer meeting (praying for the mission at home and abroad), I think we covered just about everything in your liturgy (even though we didn’t formally have one and we didn’t call it by that name).
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Dave Smith said:
That is very interesting Jock and it sounds like a good method of approach for deepening the meaning of the gospels for the people.
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Dave Smith said:
Jock, I’m sorry, as I meant to also address prayer that does not have Christ as its center. That is, of course, a travesty of true meditation or contemplative prayer. There are always those that propose ‘methods’ of prayer that are very dangerous. One of these, “the quietists” suggested the emptying of ones mind without an object. That is not the quiet of prayer of which Chrisitians should seek and it was soundly renounced. Today there is also, in vogue, those who foster “centering prayer” which, if one is not very certain to keep Christ as its center is also as slippery a slope as was the prayer of quiet; denounced by Theresa of Avila herself who was an adept at contemplative prayer. It is why the Church proposes persons such as her and St. John of the Cross as Doctors of mystical theology to be read and adhered to in very minute detail; for they know the dangers first hand and have defeated them in their time and can also do so in ours.
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Jock McSporran said:
Dave – gosh. I hadn’t heard of these heresies – thanks for filling me in. I seem to be a bit isolated these days.
I remember that our minister said some things about prayer that I found very wise and stood me in good stead. The Saturday evening prayer meeting was strictly for the mission at home and abroad. He took the view that, with prayer, the worst thing to do was to concentrate on oneself and one’s own selfish, self-centred problems. One came to a corporate prayer meeting to learn about the work of the Holy Spirit in a much larger context – and when one saw what was going on in the mission at home and abroad, started taking an interest in these matters and praying about them, this was a very good way to put one’s own petty problems in perspective (i.e. utterly trivial compared with the much more serious issues going on, where missionaries are proclaiming the Word and experiencing persecution as a result).
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Dave Smith said:
I suppose, if like you have related Jock, that this is good advice. However, I wouldn’t neglect prayer for myself in regards to tendencies for spiritual failures. I need all the help I can get. 🙂
But overall, I think this is wise. We need to think of others needs (material) before we think of our own. We would do much better to count our blessings and give thanks in prayer for those good things that we have been entrusted with.
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orthodoxgirl99 said:
Yep, totally agree with you on all of that. What riles me the most at the moment that the Church is becoming subservient to the whining and demands of the people! A case of the tail wagging the dog!! It seems to me to be more like a social club or a place of entertainment, where everything must be done to suit people’s tastes and sensibilities – heaven forbid the congregation have to ‘endure’ a service longer than 50 mins – 1 hour plus would be UNTHINKABLE! Such a lot of nonsense. I know of one priest who, during a Baptism, began splashing the Holy Water in the Font to the faithful gathered around it, as if he was playing games in a swimming pool?! Needless to say, some were definitely NOT amused at his ‘gameshow host’ antics while others just appeared bemused. Shameful.
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Dave Smith said:
Indeed.
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Philip Augustine said:
The enemy for those in the pews is the heresy of Gnosticism which has never left us, it constantly remakes itself in the world’s image. Christianity needs to openly and actively teach about its dangers.
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orthodoxgirl99 said:
My last comment was in agreement with Dave! I forget that the reply does not always eventually sit with the relevant comment! Sorry if I have confused anyone 🙂
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ginnyfree said:
Still don’t have enough time to do your essay some justice. I can only ask if anyone here has ever heard of Venerable Bede? Um, I think from my perspective it is more about the Church IN England rather than the Church OF England. St. Augustine of Canterbury was sent to tend the flock already there, not form a separate church. Just some thoughts. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Jock McSporran said:
The ‘venerable bede’ – we have one of these in our bathroom. We weren’t so keen on it, but the architect insisted.
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JessicaHof said:
I adore Bede, and like to visit his tomb as often as I can. The Church of England remains, in my view and that of many Anglicans, both Catholic and Reformed. We manage to avoid all that stuff about ‘what did the Pope really mean?’ and ‘what did the Latin say’. This is a good thing.
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ginnyfree said:
P.S. As I’ve said before here, I’m no fan of revisionist histories.
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JessicaHof said:
Me neither – especially those who try to revise English history to make Mary I the good queen and her much greater sister the bad one 🙂
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Bosco the Great said:
Arent you aware……..Catholic = Good……Protestant= Bad
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JessicaHof said:
No, I wasn’t, is that some new rule? 🙂
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jrj1701 said:
I apologize for being off topic. I have been asked to relay a message from Newenglandson. He apologizes and feels as if you are ignoring him. He wishes that you would check up on him.
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jrj1701 said:
This comment is posted for Jessica.
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JessicaHof said:
As I have no access to the dashboard here, I can’t see his comments, and they don’t show up the way I access the comments via the task bar – I am certainly not ignoring him.
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jrj1701 said:
Jessica NES apologizes again and asks will you please email him.
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JessicaHof said:
At the moment I have him on block because of some of the things he says. If he promises not to say them again, I shall reconsider.
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chalcedon451 said:
The problem is that he often posts obscenities which are caught by the filter. What then happens is that anything which is not an obscenity can be cleared by me, but one peculiarity of the system appears to be that when it clears it does not show up in the dialogue box on the top right, which is where Jess and others look for responses. This is why Jess is not aware of his posts. I do hope you will pass that back to him.
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jrj1701 said:
Chalcedon, NES asks if you would take him off of moderation.
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chalcedon451 said:
I know. He must agree not to use obscene language – and stick to it.
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Bosco the Great said:
You are too nice good brother Chalcedon.
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chalcedon451 said:
I hope that, in this case, that turns out not to be the case.
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ginnyfree said:
Hello Jessica! You’ve probably already found out about this, but I thought I’d post it here cause its relevant to this essay. It is about relics of St. Augustine of Canterbury and St. Gregory, the Great that are coming to Canterbury as part of the annual week of Prayer for Christian Unity. http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2016/01/07/relics_of_st_gregory,_st_augustine_on_display_in_canterbury/1199475
I hope you enjoy the article and perhaps if it is close to you, you might even go see them. I have no idea where you live, but hey, does it matter? God bless. Ginnyfree.
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JessicaHof said:
I am hoping to see them at some point next week – thank you for the link – looking forward to much to it 🙂
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jrj1701 said:
Jessica, NES has promised to behave and wishes to communicate with you.
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jrj1701 said:
He does apologize for his inappropriate behavior.
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JessicaHof said:
Thank you. You can tell him that in view of his promises I have taken him off ‘block’ on my email. 🙂
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Bosco the Great said:
Good brother Newngland is the very flower of a seminary student.
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JessicaHof said:
Now then Bosco, don’t tease him – play nice 🙂 xx
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jrj1701 said:
NES would be glad to hear that if you were being sincere.
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newenglandsun said:
C,
I have already agreed not to use obscene language and have apologized for lashing out at Mother. You are not being a man of your word by keeping me on comment moderation any longer. I expect to be taken off by Saturday or when I start using QVO’s blog to communicate with Mother, I will tell her you are doing the Devil’s work by keeping me on comment moderation. I’ve kept my end of the bargain, you need to keep yours. No more comment moderation for NES as I have already agreed not to use obscene language. By keeping me on, it shows your true intention is to simply just provoke my anger more. You are a minister of Satan, not of God.
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chalcedon451 said:
If this is an example of how to convince me of your good faith, it is singularly unconvincing. You were the one who asked to be moderation, and given the content of some of the things I have found in the spam filter, that was a wise decision. I logged in a few minutes ago to find 37 messages from you in the spam filter. None of this suggests that it would be wise to take you off comments moderation.
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newenglandsun said:
C,
….
So take me off moderation ASAP. I DEMAND it!
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chalcedon451 said:
NES, if you will stop flooding the spam filter, and if you will stop using bad language, then you can come off moderation. But let us see for a day or so if you can. I gather from Jessica that you are in touch. That is good, but again, you need to calm down now – and anything like some of the language you have been using will secure a permanent blocking. You need to remember Jessica herself has been very ill indeed and is still not strong.
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JessicaHof said:
He and I are now in touch – I hope he will read what you have said, and yes, if he behaves then I am happy for him to be off moderation. I must go in a moment, and don’t know if I have access tomorrow – so no one panic if I’m not back before Monday!
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chalcedon451 said:
Good – but I am afraid one infraction and that will be that.
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JessicaHof said:
I am sure he will be good if he can be 🙂 xx
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newenglandsun said:
BTW, I am also going to take a break from visiting this blog for a while. But as you have stated, “If, over the next week you show you can be by not obsessing about this, I shall reconsider.”
I will keep my end of the bargain and you keep your end. Again, I may not be back on here for a while so you can determine if that is also enough for me to show I can not obsess about this or if I need to show activity on the blog as well. In the meanwhile, I’m happy being back in touch with Mother and I am making the necessary strides toward sanity as well as getting in contact with an exorcist.
(Also, apologies for the double-reply to this comment on my part…)
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chalcedon451 said:
Not a problem, and I wish you well. Jessica will let me know how she feels about things, and that will guide me. I hope all goes well.
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Bosco the Great said:
Good brother Newengland, I want you to promise to be a nice person from here until the end of the world. Do you promise?
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