Tags
Catholic Church, Catholicism, Christianity, controversy, Faith, Hell, Salvation, sin

St John Paul II’s ‘Crossing the threshold of hope’ informs much of this post.
The subject of hell has somewhat dominated our blog of late, and it might be time to outline what the Catholic Church has to say on the subject. As so often, it is necessary to draw a distinction between what the pious believe in a general way, and what the Church teaches officially. To give one example, many ordinary Catholics (and non-Catholics) would, if asked about hell, respond in terms of pitchforks, devils and real fire burning people, and if asked why they believe that would say ‘it is in the Bible’. But as our friend Bosco here so often shows, it is not enough to read everything in Scripture literally. The Church teaches from Scripture and Tradition, and does not neglect reason either. It knows that much of what will happen after death is a mystery, and, contrary to the charges of some of its critics, it does not try to make cut and dried what is mysterious. Those caveats entered, let me offer a synopsis of what I understand Catholic teaching in this area to be saying.
At death the soul is judged – this is known as the particular judgment. There are, the Church teaches, three outcomes to this judgment immediately after death: immediate unification with Christ; conditional unification, which is commonly called Purgatory; and immediate rejection which is eternal damnation – as the catechism puts it:
To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”
The chief punishment of hell is separation from God. The careful reader of the link will see that the Church puts inverted commas around ‘eternal fire’, and this is because it is not pronouncing on the literal presence of fire. St Thomas Aquinas says it is a real fire, but with all respect to the Angelic doctor, that is his opinion, one we should take seriously, but not an article of faith. But it must be emphasised that in its official teaching the Church relies, as it always does, on the words of Jesus, who, according to St Matthew, said that at death people would be separated into two groups – everlasting punishment or eternal life. I can quite understand the Apologetics which then queries the existence of Purgatory on the ground this does not fit with the twofold division here (although, since the Church teaches that eternally there are only two destinations for us, there is no contradiction); what I find more puzzling is the notion that the idea of everlasting hell is not to be derived from this.
I quite understand the impatience of some thinkers with the assumption that, for example, when Paul speaks of people being unworthy of eternal life, that means they are going to hell, or that when he says the wages of sin are death that means sinners go to hell. If you do not believe in hell, or you do not believe in the Catholic teaching, you could not extrapolate it from such passages. However, we read Scripture as a whole, and once you take the sense of the Matthean passage just quoted, then it is natural to talk of hell in relation to the Pauline passages. I would entirely take Jessica’s point that Paul does not major on this theme, and would add to it that the Catholic Church follows suit – in a catechism of 2865 paragraphs only 5 of them deal with hell. As ever, the Church follows in the path of the first evangelists. This has the huge advantage that it can be secure in its teaching; it has the eternal disadvantage that there will be things it teaches which every age will find difficult. Our own age finds the idea of eternal torment one of those things. But let us examine the nature of that torment as far as we can.
Balthasar, whose Dare We Hope “That All Men Be Saved?” (1986) is more often criticised than read, did not teach universalism (indeed, it seems rather doubtful as to whether Origen did so either, but that’s another matter). He acknowledged that we all stand under judgment, and that, despite the distastefulness of the idea, eternal torment was not to be dismissed:
If we take our faith seriously and respect the words of Scripture, we must resign ourselves to admitting such an ultimate possibility, our feelings of revulsion notwithstanding. We may not simply ignore such a threat; we may not easily dismiss it, neither for ourselves nor for any of our brothers and sisters in Christ” (p. 237).
In this he was at one with St John Paul II, whose book, Crossing the Threshold of Hope (1994), also spoke of the hope that we might legitimately have that all men might yet be saved, but added (as Balthasar did) that sinful, prideful man might reject the love of God and choose not to be in his presence. To quote St John Paul directly:
“… yet the words of Christ are unequivocal. In Matthew’s Gospel he speaks clearly of those who will go to eternal punishment (cf. Matthew 25:46).”
Speaking in a General Audience on 28 July 1999, St John Paul said:
The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy.
God grants us free-will and we can reject him – in which case, as St John Paul II put it:
Damnation remains a real possibility, but it is not granted to us, without special divine revelation, to know which human beings are effectively involved in it. The thought of hell — and even less the improper use of biblical images — must not create anxiety or despair, but is a necessary and healthy reminder of freedom within the proclamation that the risen Jesus has conquered Satan, giving us the Spirit of God who makes us cry “Abba, Father!” (Rm 8:15; Gal 4:6).
The Church prays that all men may be saved (CCC 1821) and that no one will be lost (CCC 1058), and since Christ came to save all, again, and as usual, it does no more than its founder taught it. But Saint John Paul is right, it is not given to us to know who is in hell. Nor, in speaking of the latter, is it necessary to postulate literal flames. St Isaac the Syrian, in speaking of hell, expressed it best:
Those who are tormented in hell are tormented by the invasion of love. What is there more bitter and violent than the pains of love? Those who feel they have sinned against love bear in themselves a damnation much heavier than the most dreaded punishments. The suffering with which sinning against love afflicts the heart is more keenly felt than any other torment. It is absurd to assume that the sinners in hell are deprived of God’s love. Love is offered impartially. But by its very power it acts in two ways. It torments sinners, as happens here on earth when we are tormented by the presence of a friend to whom we have been unfaithful. And it gives joy to those who have been faithful. That is what the torment of hell is in my opinion: remorse.
This is very far away from pitchforks and devils and torture chambers. It is also, I would suggest, more accessible for us all. Which of us, having done something very wrong and come to repentance has not been tortured by the remembrance of our sin? As the old Anglican General Confession put it: ‘The remembrance of them is grievous unto us; The burden of them is intolerable.’ These are the things which drive us to confess and to repentance. They are healthy for us because they encourage us to turn aside from our sins.
None of this is to say that ‘fear’ in its common sense, is what drives us to God. If we love Him, we will feel remorse, and the remembrance of our sins is intolerable. If we do not, then hell is most likely the state of coming to that realisation too late. That is our choice. There is no eternal torture chamber created by God – just the one we construct for ourselves.
I hope that this helps set forth what the Church teaches in a form which is of assistance. The traditional caricatures are not, in my own view, very helpful, and, as we have seen here recently, can create confusion and anxiety. That is not what the Church wishes to do – it wishes as its founder wished, that all men might turn from their sins in repentance and come to Christ. Might we hope for that? Of course we can, the Church does; can we say it is so? No, for the Church has not said so. St Isaac said this life is for repentance, and, as the thief at the right hand of the Saviour found, whilst there is life there is hope – and whilst there is hope, then there is prayer we can all offer that all who have not yet repented and turned to Christ, might yet do so.
C, a quote comes to mind: ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant…’
LikeLiked by 3 people
Thank you Steve. As so often when one undertakes this sort of thing, it is the sensitivity and Biblical nature of Catholic teaching which strikes you. Fulton Sheen was right, there are 100s who hate what they think the Catholic Church is – but few who would if they understood its teaching.
A key element here is the one think our Reformed brethren reject – Purgatory. Yes, if you think that at the judgment there are only two options, it can look horrific, but if you factor in Purgatory, oddly enough the real danger is universalism – it is quite possible that everyone could, in theory, purge their sins. That is not what the Church teaches, so I reject it, but it really is the main danger with the teaching of the Church properly understood – quite the opposite to what Jessica fears!
LikeLiked by 2 people
I’d like that comment too if I stll was going by Servus Fidelis. 🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
If what Catholics call Purgatory is what I’m referring to as Hades we are not so far apart on the state of the unrighteous dead prior to the judgement on the Day of the Lord.
LikeLiked by 4 people
I think that it is Rob – it certainly serves the same purpose. As so often, when we get into discussing some detail, we find we are not too far apart.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I’ve read Maronite Catholics refer to what Western Catholics call Purgatory as Sheol.
LikeLike
OT Sheol NT Hades so that is very interesting
LikeLike
The Maronite Catholics are mostly Syrian and Arabic hence the Semitic terminology.
Further, some theologians divide Hades/Sheol up into two compartments–Paradise (where the saints go–hence, the concept of Purgatory being exclusive–this is the bosom of Abraham) and the place where the rest of the dead await judgment–the place where the rich man went.
LikeLike
C, I found this post very instructive and informing for those who do not understand Catholicism and I would say simply: ‘job well done.’
But I do have some questions which I might pose in a number of comments that, if misunderstood, could perhaps allow ones imagination to conclude what is inconclusive. For we know that spiritual insight does not always use the language or the images that a theologian would employ. It is not meant to be taken as a teaching but as an exposition on the love of God. Therefore, let me start here.
You state that, in speaking of who is in hell, St. Isaac the Syrian said it best. I further want to make it clear that some idea of torture chamgers and pitchforks and bubbling sulpheric lava is all about is not what most mature Christians understand: the problem more with describing a state none of us can fully know . . . though accepted as both real and just. Now I would posit that St. Syrian is speaking of the Love of God and in a spiritual context and not to be a definitive theology that one can take his word for.
For instance, that love exists in Hell (in my mind as a spiritual reality). For it would seem to me that if God is in Hell they cannot co-exist in their fullness. Love without the Goodness of love would allow for relief from suffering. That it is true that these souls in hell experience remorse, it is not definitive understood that this is because they are confronted with such in a real and material sense. In fact, I would say that it is more in keeping with the remorse that is born of self-love (having remembered a world where God’s love and balm for our sufferings) that wished the ‘good’ for themselves and not for the victims of their transgressions against God and thereby love itself. It is not disimilar to the evil criminal that expresses remorse: not for the victims of his heinous acts, these sins against God and man, but that he was caught and may now have to pay the recompense. Otherwise . . . in the truth of his balckened heart there is no true remorse. Not for God, not for his victims but sorrow for his self, which he loves above and beyond all else. If there is love in hell . . . it is love for themselves. I do not deny that the knowledge of the unconditional love of God was meant for them as well: I would deny that God is still ‘torturing’ them by His presence. It is no more than a vision of God at their personal judgment that is as fresh and as present to them as it was at that singular moment. It is not that they would repent knowing what they know now. It is that they loathe God who would deprive them of all possible examples of good in a state though they, themselves, drove that Good away and would do so again. Their loathing of God is complete. So does the love of God torment such souls, yes. Is it an actual presence of God who recognizes and loves them as his sons and daughters . . . though they bear no resemblance to His Son . . . having rejected and expelled Christ from their hearts had they ever possessed it in any measure.
Your thoughts? I’d be interested.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Sorry for the multitude of typing mistakes . . . as you probably know by now, I rarely check what I write and go with whatever the auto spell corrector inserts. Hope you can muddle through these thoughts. 🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
I did 🙂
LikeLike
Dave, methinks you found your thinking cap. 🙂
LikeLiked by 2 people
I’m not sure Grandpa, its been so long since I used it, it may only be a beanie with the propeller missing. 🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
Thank you Dave.
I think what St Isaac is getting at is perception. God is love. Those who have embraced him experience that the way we are supposed to, but those who have rejected him experience it through the lens of their rejection. It is, I think, rather like the stroppy teen who will, as my old grandma used to put it, ‘cut off his nose to spite his face’.
In this scenario, their perverseness rebounds, and because of their choice they experience what is love as torture. It actually seems to fit quite well with what Sr Faustina describes, and St Theresa – they both talk about the pain of separation.
What we can’t know, and what may be quite irrelevant, is the location of this hell. St Isaac thought it inside the sinner, and he may have got it right.
It is all, of course, miles away from popular misconceptions 🙂
LikeLiked by 3 people
It is indeed C though it seems not fit the isolation as described in the story of poorly dressed wedding guest, being tossed out into the darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth. It is why I say, I find no spiritual disconnect with our defined teaching but warn that it is best interpreted in the unfathomable love of God for our souls . . . and a positive encouragement for souls on the spiritual path and the negative discouragement one might have for neglecting their duty.
To some extent it speaks to the end for which we were made (including satan and his fallen angels). We are wise to know that when we are given a free will to accept our natural end or create an end for our selves according to our own desires. To corrupt the end for which we were made might be likened to a boat “with free will” that was to help ferry souls to Heaven; but decided it did not want to be boat but a means to frustrate and drown its passengers in direct opposition to the Will of God. In such a case, does God love the ‘boat’ with a leaking hull after it drilled its hull with holes? He loves His creation as far as it connforms to what was built and performs its duties according to its will. Otherwise, it seems to me that the Boat Maker loses no sleep for the boat once it has disappeared into the depths of the deep. For God . . . it has become a ‘new creation’ with a different end . . . and end that God did not intend.
Am I making sense or am I off on one of my tangents? After all, this topic has tentacles that stretch out into many other teachings that we hold.
LikeLiked by 1 person
It makes sense. The greatest isolation is that of the egotist who is, in the end, left alone with himself.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Left alone where, C: amongst God and His Children? For if God is there, so are we. An admixture of which seems impossible . . . like Bp. Barron’s folk sulking in the corner of a party. Doesn’t seem much like a party for either group. Liberties can be made for a number of interpretations but then this neither sounds like scripture nor our theology nor our Church Teaching. If they are there in some kind of self-imposed isolation (and that is all their hell consists of) then evil has triumphed and there is not much to the victory of Good.It’s the same place. It is heaven for us and hell for them. It seems a bit like an episode of Twilight Zone.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I suspect that notions of geographical and physical location may not apply in the life of the world to come. We are told nothing much about these things.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Agreed . . . . and why I amended. Separateness from God as posited by the theologians does not mean that they receive any of the beatitude of God because of His presence and conversely God’s beatitude is not diminished by the pain and suffering of Hell. It seems to be a rather standard idea in theology. Not proof and not an incorprated teaching; but inteesting and quite logical I think.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I think so too – incidentally, good answers from Jess too 🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
She has a gift for asking questions and answering them in ways that make one go deeper. 🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
She does, it is what makes her a good teacher – she asks questions because she wants the answer, not to show how clever she is 🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
A wise way to proceed. 🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
To clarify my above: I am not suggesting that God is not everywhere (that was a poor theological expression). Better would it have been to say that God though omnipresent is not felt or seen by the damned (and this is an act of His Mercy for they would be in far greater pain God allowed it). But they did see God at their judgment. Time is not a factor in hell . . . it is contrasted in scripture against the eternity of heaven and eternity does not have a different meaning for heaven and for hell. It is beyond our sense of time. It is a steady state of being that is final. Sorry. 🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
Actually Dave, I’ve heard it said that at their particular judgement the damned do NOT see God at all. Those who pass into purgatory do have a sense of Him until the beatific vision is realized once their purification gets underway. But the damned cannot see God for it has become impossible. There is a priest still living who talks about his close brush with Hell and what he experienced when he was pronounced dead. He very clearly states he knew he was going to Hell because he felt no comfort nor saw anything good, just a ghastly oppression. He was dangling over the mawing jaws of Leviathan and about to be consumed. He was revived but not without much difficulty and while those who were working on his body to save him, he believes it was the Blessed Mother’s intercession on his behalf that saved him from Hell for all of eternity. He was a speaker in lots of places including a few times on EWTN. I’ll see if I can find a Youtube of him and post it tomorrow. He is very convincing and sincere. God bless. Ginnyfree.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Not sure what is speculative and held as Church Teaching from a few conflicting sites, Ginny. I did find this interesting peice writtin in England, pre-VII that asks and expounds on almost every question and objection that Rob and Jess have made. His answers are quite interesting.
Click to access hell.pdf
LikeLiked by 1 person
Very helpful little pamphlet. Hope Jess and the others pay it some mind. God bless. Ginnyfree.
LikeLike
It will be easier to read here as I did my own PDF of the Q&A’s: https://servusfidelis.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/hell-questions-and-answers.pdf
LikeLiked by 1 person
I am not sure we have the information to go into this detail – and perhaps just as well!
LikeLiked by 1 person
Exactly C. The egoist is left to contemplate his loss and feel sorry for himself, not for his misdemeanours and those he has hurt.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Dear friend, I read your PDF with interest, but it does seem to me to assume and assert rather a lot. Some of the quotations on pages 4 and 5 do not necessarily mean what the author assumes, a point made in my first or second piece: Matt 25:41 I accept, but Luke 13:27-28 does not mention hell and could be taken to do so only if you make the assumption you are trying to prove, which is bad logic; Matt 18:8 seems similar. Matt 10:28 seems rather to go to my argument – if your body is destroyed in hell it is destroyed, it ceases to exist. I am not denying hell, simply questioning its eternity; this could be read as meaning just that.
His treatment of Paul is also marked by assuming the major premise he is trying to prove. Rom 6:21-23 does indeed say the fate of the unredeemed is death. Death does not mean eternal torment, unless you assume it does. Romans 2:5-9 talks about tribulation and anguish, it does not mention eternal torment. 2 Thess 1-9 mentions ‘eternal punishment in destruction’. If you are destroyed that is your eternal punishment – you have to read into this what you are using it to argue. Yes, the author rightly points out that 1 Cor 6:9 and Gal 5:19-21 say the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God – but where does that say they go to hell for ever. So I am afraid that this (on p. 5 of the original) utterly fails to refute the argument Paul does not mention hell.
I shan’t go through the rest because it is more or less the same all the way through. You have put forward rather better arguments. That pamphlet may have worked in the 1930s, but I think it may be no accident it is now out of print. It would be a very ineffective apologetic. Goodness me, I am a child at these things, but was shocked at the treatment of Paul. There isn’t a Bible scholar who would support that exegesis now, I suspect.
None of that is to say that I am not very impressed – but it is to say that it is by your arguments. You have convinced me that hell is eternal, and C has greatly helped in convincing me that what he says here, along with what you say, gets closer to the truth than other arguments 🙂 xx
LikeLiked by 2 people
I dodn’t supply that to Ginny in order to impress or even make my case: I’d use Garrigou-Lagrange and his references. However, the reason I did post it in the combox was I found it interesting that almost every argument that we have had here was one that the Catholic Church was doing street level aplogetics for in the 1950’s. To my knowledge nothing coming close to this was going on here. And as you stay it is still ongoing in England and I still don’t see it here. Just a different set of objections one is likely to run into from sociital concerns. I don’t have a clue as to what it means; maybe you just have more Dawkins types in England and aways have. 🙂
LikeLiked by 2 people
Thank you dear friend. I have similar comments about the Garrigou-Lagrange Bible citations, like the piece you linked us to here, it assumes things it says it is proving. I find your own arguments and those of C much more compelling because you are engaging with the arguments and not assuming that you are right, but rather showing why 🙂 xx
Yes, we do have a lot of Dawkinsites, and it is important that we have an argument to which they will listen. I can see how what you and C have said here can do that I can’t see the other arguments convincing someone who was not already convinced. So, gold stars to you and C xx
LikeLiked by 1 person
Thank you dear lady. I suppose had the arguments have worked well in London that most of these questions would have disappeared by now: obviously they haven’t. 🙂 xx
LikeLiked by 1 person
I really am most grateful, and hope to have learned not only the arguments, but how to present them.
I am not surprised that those 1931 arguments don’t work. They take for granted too much that needs arguing – the Pauline passages just stood out as very badly done. They only work if you already assume what he is trying to prove.
The hardest thing is to overcome what that quotation C used from St JPII called the abuse of mataphors. Too often, it seems to me, people have created a hell in the image that their society recognised. So, in an age of burnings and quite cruel punishments, they imagined hell as that to the nth degree. If that is right, we, in our time, need to do the same – that is present an image of hell which our society can recognise. In its own tiny way, our discussion here has helped 🙂 xx
I am very grateful for your long forbearance, and for C’s kindness in putting up with me and my questions 🙂
LikeLiked by 3 people
Well there was obviously a need for this to be expounded judging by the response. Some had never thought of it spent hours pondering such or, like me, had not done some for so long that it is hard to even recall how my sense of it was fully compatible to the teachings of the Church. So it was a good brain tease. 🙂
LikeLiked by 2 people
I think that every generation has to think through some things. I think C was right to point out the way in which all we can do sometimes with the ineffable is express it in terms which make sense to us. For a generation which has seen cruel punishments abandoned, the old idea of hell makes no sense. I think the ideas C was putting out yesterday do – young people know what it is like to be isolated and alienated and to end up where they didn’t want – this way of explaining it will make sense to those to whom I speak. I will use it and report back 🙂 xx
Again, you (and C and others) have provided a model of how Christians can conduct themselves even when it looks like there is a serious disagreement. I don’t think we are that far apart, and it is making me think seriously about what I understand by ‘Purgatory’. It seems to me that the idea is perfectly compatible with hell as we have been discussing it – at least before the final judgment. All goes to show how a good discussion can make you think!
LikeLiked by 3 people
It can indeed . . . and I am glad that you see Purgatory now as an act of God’s love and mercy; which it is.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I can begin to see my way a bit here – just goes to show how useful discussion can be 🙂 xx
LikeLiked by 2 people
It certainly can be. It also helped confirm some of my own thoughts and reevaluate others. So very useful indeed. 🙂 xx
LikeLiked by 2 people
As promised Dave, I found the EWTN interview of Mother Angelica of the priest I was telling you about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VFE8ToVatI Enjoy. It is about 40 minutes long, so you may want to save it for later. God bless. Ginnyfree
LikeLiked by 1 person
I will Ginny. Thank you.
LikeLike
Thanks for the PDF Dave. I have no time to read it just yet but I copied it to my laptop. I do not anticipate a change my of views as they have been developed after considerable consideration of opposing opinions as it is. I anticipate it will be useful teaching material when I present these topics to others.
LikeLiked by 1 person
You’re welcome Rob. I think the questions are much the same from the time of this pamphlet . . . which was interesting to me. I think the apologetics needs are in need of updating and clarification though. What worked 75 years ago might not have much traction today. Sadly, this is not an area of apologetics that has had much development since then . . . as the other ‘crisis’ topics having to do with moral issues keeps us focused in different directions. A period of ‘relative peace’ within our churches battles with societal issues today would be required before many theolotians turn their minds onto that issue. After all, the oucome as to how a Christian ought to live his life is not affected a bit by this doctrine. We still know that we need try to live a life consistent with the gospels. So I am afraid the apologetic problem will remain for some time into the future.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Chalcedon, it seems to me you have covered all the vital points of our discussions these recent days and you have hit exactly the right tone. But then again, Catholic teaching tends to do that (be reasonable and reassuring when rightly presented and understood). Really well done, a carefully thought out piece to cap off this series (not to say that we need to be finished). I hope this is a post that will draw many new readers to this very fine blog.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Thank you, Zeke – much appreciated 😄
LikeLike
No time left today, so it has to wait. You do have a few boo boos in your essay. I can’t help anymore today. Takes too long. Happy New Year. You’ve said a mouthful Chalcedon. Hell is real. Don’t send yourself there. Choose Jesus. God bless. Ginnyfree.
LikeLike
Can we be done with hell now?
LikeLiked by 1 person
Sure! What would you like to discuss next? American College Football or your favorite hamburger recipe?
LikeLike
IIHF hockey.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Immigration in Europe and how multiculturalism there will lead to civil war.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Sounds like a winner. When will you send your post to C or Jess for publication?
LikeLike
Don’t hold your breath.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I found that out after turning blue and fainting.
LikeLiked by 1 person
That was my hope 😊
LikeLike
Can we be done with hell now?
No. Its waiting for those who expect a virgin queen to save them. Hell is just beginning. Wear light clothing.
LikeLike
I hope that we have all done with it for eternity Steve.
LikeLike
“Church relies, as it always does, on the words of Jesus,”
Call no man on this earth your Father……that is the words of Jesus.
LikeLike
“There is no eternal torture chamber created by God –”
You swear there aint no heaven and pray there aint no hell. Nice attempt to soften the fall for your fellow virgin queen worshipers who will end up in hell.
LikeLike
Bosco, it would be kinder to yourself to refrain from responding to something you clearly don’t understand.
LikeLike
Um, have I ever mentioned that I know Jesus personally?
LikeLike
Has he ever mentioned you?
LikeLike
Kindly rephrase that.
LikeLike
He’s never mentioned you to me.
LikeLike
You never met him in order to talk to him. You need to remedy that
LikeLike
Oddly enough, I talk to him every day – it is called prayer by Jesus; try it sometime.
LikeLike
I know my catholic brothers have a yearning for god. And that is good.
Jesus is at your door . Open and he will come in. But don’t ask him to come in with a gold cup or some queen virgin. Drop that madness and ask the Maker to show himself.
LikeLike
You are the only one here who thinks we have no all already done this, and your only argument is the dumb one that sheep understand each other.
LikeLike
C, he hasn’t read a book in forty years. He learned it all by 16 and stopped.
LikeLike
By the way, I love that above pic of the blessed Johnpaul II. It gives me occasion to advertise our Johnpaul II Delux Penance Kits. yes, you too can whip yourself into gods arms, using our authentic Penance Kit. For only $149.95 you can own your very own life size replica of the belt His Holiness whipped himself closer to god with. Comes with elbow length pink or black leather gloves and matching leather hood. Sterling nipple tassels are always a bonus for the blessed event. So buy this kit and start flogging yourself. Johnpaul II the great wil be proud of you.
LikeLike
Have you ever wondered why you alone here have an attraction to such things? Surely as you live in the land of the psychologist, you should seek help?
LikeLike
So tell me…. since your Holy Father whipped himself, and some orders of monks do, do you whip yourself to be closer to god? I mean, your spiritual leader did it…..therefor you must follow suit. So, do you whip yourself to get closer to god? Thanks in advance.
LikeLike
It seems odd that anyone could be so stupid as you try to appear to be. If you could point me to where Catholics are told they must do this, you will have your answer. As you can’t, the answer is we don’t have to and therefore no.
LikeLike
Ok. If its good enough for the Holy Father, its not needed by you. That’s odd. Seems the devotees would want to follow gods rep here on earth. Whatss the matter? Don’t like flogging yourself?
Pow wow ouch…. oh boy….I casn see god now….just a few more lashes and im in his arms. Pow wow oueeeeeee. Yeah baby yeah….do it harder.
LikeLike
This may come as a shock, so do ask Jesus, who will confirm it, but God made us all differently. And what, apart from a perverse mind, makes you think anyone flogs themselves to get closer to God?
LikeLike
Come on good brother……whip it, and whip it good
LikeLike
Have you sought help for this?
LikeLike
Your brother devotees know the Holy Father whipped himself. If you don’t know its because you don’t want to know. But I think you know and just don’t want to admit it. You cant seriously think im making this up. That’s not my style.
Now whip it
and whip it good.
LikeLike
I never said you were making anything up. I said that people had different ways of being.
LikeLike
Sicko wacko false nutjob religions
LikeLike
Yes, I think any chapel which encourages people to think that sheep know each other is very sick – perhaps you should take a lead and get out?
LikeLike
AAAhhhahahahahahahahahhaha. I think youre getting a feel for who I am. You excuse the Holy Father for his doings by saying…….to each his own. Well, my grandma used to say that. No. In your cult, its not do what ever you please. You do what is proscribed. Cant you see youre in a false religion? Why don’t you ask Jesus to show himself.
LikeLike
If you or your grandma could provide actual evidence that flagellation is prescribed, fine, if you can’t, an apology for telling another lie is in order.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Whipping your dumb ass is penance. Johnpaul II did it. It brought him closer to god. Or, his god. Not my god. My god isn’t a cracker. My god says we cant build a house for him. Yet you idolaters think you coral him in some golden trinket.
LikeLike
I thought you said you believed Jesus when he said ‘this is my body … this is my blood’ – now you call his body and blood a ‘cracker’? You seem a bit mixed up even by your own exalted standards.
LikeLiked by 1 person
When he broke bread and handed it out to his boys, I believe it. Not the Isis Horus and Seth crackers the C of M hands out.
LikeLike
So you don’t believe that the bread and wine turned into his body and blood as St Paul says, because Paul says it did in the church after Jesus had risen again. You keep saying you believe the Bible and keep showing you don’t.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Ill have to get back with you on that. It seems very important to catholics, this communion. Me firing from the hip doesn’t help my cause.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Just as I thought. Its a sorespot for Marys that their Holy Father flogged himself. Jeeze….what a wack cult you idolaters got there. Truckloads of childmolester holymen and sado masochists. No wonder you idolaters don’t want to discuss it.
LikeLike
No, it isn’t. Throughout the ages holy men and women have taken on extraordinary penances. Our’s here is you.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Is that rite? Well im gonna flog you till you are in the arms of god.
LikeLike
The extraordinary penance you Mary worshippers do is burning to death people so you can grab their wealth. That’s why your cult has so much property. Nice choise of cults….bonehead. That goes for all who go religion shoping and wind up in the cult of the inquisition. Im not glad, but at the same time, I don’t want heaven to be crowded. And it wont be……thanks to cults of wacko.
LikeLike
I think you’ll find that one quite hard to support with actual evidence. When was the last burning, do remind me?
LikeLike
Spain..1849
LikeLike
About the time the US still had slavery then? Desperate much?
LikeLike
The USA isn’t a religion claiming to be gods own vehicle to salvation.
In 18 49 a Spanish school teacher said that there is no Mary floating around. The ministers of the C of M burned him at the stake. Lovely little religion you idolaters got there.
LikeLike
My point is simple enough so that even you ought to have been able to have understood it – in the past they did things differently.
LikeLike
There is no past or future. Do you know what its like to be burned to death? Your religion doesn’t do that now because it cant. It kills by keeping its flock away from Christ and on their knees befor a female shaped block of cement.
LikeLike
It is lies like this which make one wonder about your claims.
LikeLike
Now we get to the fine points of whipping. I don’t know what to say about those saints who nailed themselves to crosses or whipped themselves until they bled. So I’m just going to leave them out of it. But what about John Paul II, who whipped himself and didn’t bleed? This was a very common practice among Jesuits up until the mid-60’s. Ignatius even prescribed it in the Spiritual Exercises.
https://whosoeverdesires.wordpress.com/2010/02/17/on-self-flagellation-and-whether-you-can-do-penance-this-lent/
It is catholic teaching to hurt the body for penance.
Whip it, and whip it good. Thank you Lucifer, for being the guiding light of the Mary worshipers.
LikeLike
It is the practice of some Catholics. Not too good on logic or common sense are you?
LikeLike
That doesn’t raise any red flags for you my brother? What will it take? The pine cone staff doesn’t bother you or the Dagon costumes. gat dang man. That’s not gods church….as you have admitted, its Lucifers church. Good news is, every day above ground is a good day. You can still open the door to Jesus. Hes out there knocking. That goes for me and everyone out there.
LikeLike
No, I have admitted no such thing. So many lies. Who is the father of lies? What bigger lie than to tell a poor sap like you that he is Jesus?
LikeLike
My memory is a blur, due to holiday libations. If it wasn’t you, it was good brother Servus, and you and him are one. If he said it, its as good as you saying it, because good brother Servus speaks for the church of Mary officially. And you must agree.
LikeLike
Neither of us said so. The father of lies is letting you down.
LikeLike
Uh oh. I gotchya. Good brother Servus said Lucifer is Jesus. He will corroborate this. In the Vatican on easter, some Bozo gets up and mumbles some diatribe in Satans dead language ….latin….and says Lucifer is the son of god , or something like that. Translating latin can leave lots of wiggle room
LikeLike
He said it is the Latin for ‘light’, so in Latin when Jesus is described as the Light of the world he is ‘lucifer’ – your ignorance is immense. If you received an education for which you paid, contact a good lawyer and get your money back.
LikeLike
hahaha. Brother means cousin, call no man Father means call truckloads of Bozos Father, now Lucifer is Jesus. Ah well. All I can do is pray for you.
LikeLike
Lucifer is Latin for light. Look it up.
LikeLike
Never a dull moment. How interesting. I would refer to you as the “very flower of Catholicism” ….but that honor goes to Quiav the Great.
LikeLike
Matthew 7:23
Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Jesus doesn’t say that you didn’t eat enough crackers or that you didn’t whip your dumb ass enough. He said he didn’t know you. One has to be born again to know him personally. That is the only requirement. Not which knee you bend on or if you take the cracker in the hand or mouth.
‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
For those bleeding hearts that think there is no eternal fire,…..then you don’t believe Jesus own words, which is symptomatic of a deeper disbelief. Its called being carnal.
LikeLike
Read what St Paul says about those who eat the body and blood unworthily. The Father of Lies is strong in you, but God is stronger – you can drive out that demon with help.
LikeLike
Yeah, I know that passage. I used to know the meaning and remedy. But I forgot the details. In short, befor one does communion, one must forgive everyone and if one owes money or something, go settle the account, then do communion. But I wouldn’t worry about it. Worry about not being born again, then worry over details.
LikeLike
St Paul says the bread and wine are Christ’s body and blood; Bosco says they are ‘crackers’ – I wonder who I should believe?
LikeLike
Its for the saved, not false religion people. Communion is for the saved.
LikeLike
The saved, like St Paul, know the consecrated bread and wine are the body and blood of Christ- the unsaved call them ‘crackers’.
LikeLike
I went to cut and paste the exultant and the site hijacked the computer. I had to restart.
LikeLike
[NOTE: None of the modern liturgy of the Roman Catholic Church concerning the Eucharist has any origin from Judaism and the Jewish culture whatsoever. The claim that it is a derivation of the Jewish Passover is a transparent and poor lie, as the Eucharistic ceremony is virtually word for word identical to the ancient Osiris ceremony].
During one of the ‘more refined’ practices of cannibalism performed in honor of a fertility goddess of the ancient world, the blood of a victim was kneaded into a lump of unleavened bread to form the host that would be eaten.
This practice was incorporated for the more public ceremonies while the physical eating of flesh and blood of a dying person was done within certain cults and is still done today in secret by cults such as The Ninth Circle to which popes and Jesuits, among others, belong.
http://humansarefree.com/2014/10/the-catholic-liturgy-is-satanic-ritual.html
Im getting off point. the site about the Exultant wouldn’t let me cut and paste.
LikeLike
If you take your information from fantasy sites, that would explain the rubbish you produce.
LikeLike
I wouldn’t have posted that paragraph if I didn’t already have confirmation as to its validity. Your very own beloved Jimmy Savile was just the tip of the iceberg. It was well know he was chums with everyone of importance in britian. But they all denounced him after his death, when the facts came out. The press went quiet shortly after.
LikeLike
The press has been far from quiet, but then what do I know, I live here and read the papers. Savile was a wrong un, and there were others – quite what that has to do with what we deal with here is clear only to you.
LikeLike
My apologies, im getting off subject.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Unfortunately, as a friend pointed out to me a few months ago the truth of Ecclesiastes 1:15; that is, “The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite”. About half of all discussions on the Internet about the traditional Latin Exultet are conspiracy theories about the Catholic Church worshipping Satan. If you have the stomach for it, proceed to videos such as this expose of a recent Easter Vigil
Mass at Saint Peter’s Basilica. Or webpages such as this. (I hope you have your antacid pills at the ready.)
In the Latin version of the text, as it appears in the reformed Missal and which is sung by the deacon at Saint Peter’s in those videos circulated by the conspiracy theorist hacks, it goes:
“Flammas eius lúcifer matutínus invéniat: ille, inquam, lúcifer, qui nescit occásum. Christus Fílius tuus, qui, regréssus ab ínferis, humáno géneri serénus illúxit, et vivit et regnat in sæcula sæculórum.”
http://modernmedievalism.blogspot.com/2015/04/the-exultet-and-lucifer.html
This guy is defending the C of M. But, never the less, Lucifer is the guiding light of Catholicism, and you know it and believe it. Yu are playing dead when ever I bring embarrassing stuff up. Sheesh….whats it going to take to ween you off of this devilish cult. You can always go to the creator and ask him to show you what is truth. Don’t listen to me. Ask the source.
LikeLike
You have blathered enough for the whole year, now take your meds go to sleep, mummy will be up to kiss you nightie night. See you Dec.31st 2016.
LikeLiked by 4 people
Good brother Chalcedon said that I was a liar when I said he thinks Lucifer is Jesus…then he later on says Lucifer is Jesus. Ive got even money that says you think Jesus is Lucifer too.
LikeLike
By lucifer you meant the devil. You know, the origin of your lies and delusions. Try hard, you can throw off this imposter – but nit if you believe his lies.
LikeLike
Yes, me and the bible mean Satan when we say Lucifer.
LikeLike
You really just don’t get it – and you expect anyone to believe you are ‘saved’?
LikeLike
Once again, I don’t understand why my acceptance of scripture arouses your ire.
LikeLike
Because you don’t accept it. Paul calls the consecrated bread and wine the body and blood of Christ, you call it a ‘cracker’ – who is right, you or the Bible?
LikeLike
Another mini mass shooting just 17 miles from where I sit. Some hellbound dupe shot and killed two people at a cemetery yesterday. Just for no reason.
You keep beating me over the head with the communion. I have long ago regretted ever calling your IHS wafer a cracker. I will have to go and take another look at the first communion, even though I can recite it from memory. Then I will review Pauls snipet on the subject.
You seem to place everything on communion, as if that was the source of your salvation.
LikeLike
As it is the body and blood of Jesus, it is. Incidentally, you do know that thinking IHS is Isis, Horus and Seth makes you look a fool, don’t you – look it up on Snopes.
LikeLike
Instead of doing a post on this, I will answer your queiry here. Upon reviewing this communion matter, I quickly realize, the CC has taken the breaking of bread to the level of a ritual. Jesus said eat the bread and drink the wine, both his body, and you will abide in him and have life. So the CC tells its members that if the eat the wafer and drink the drink, they are saved and abide in god. No fuss no muss.
Communion is breaking of bread in remembrance that his body was broken for us.
Jesus is the Word of God. His words are the Bread of life like scripture says. Eating his flesh and drinking his blood is believing his Words.
Eating unworthily. Who here is worthy? The passage goes on to say that one is to examine ones self. Be honest about your sinful self. Then take communion discerning the Lords body. Its not rocket science.
Good brother Hitler, Himmler, Hoess, Gobbles, and Stalin, to name a few, all had taken Catholic communion. Even good brother Torquemada had taken communion. Now, not to admit the ritual of communion doesn’t make one saved, we must expect to see the afore mentioned sitting at the Lords supper. I assume the catholic definition of a valid communion excluded protestant communions, I guess, so that only catholics will be in heaven. Still, that would be near in excess of 2 billion people. Now comparing this to the words of Jesus, who says the road to salvation is narrow and few be thereon, this is not in keeping with scripture. So, in theory, most of the people who took catholic communion wont be saved. What now? Is that fair to the flock to lead them to think the act of eating the wafer and drinking the drink made them rite with god, when they are going to wake up in hell?
How do you reconcile this little spoken of bit of reality?
LikeLike
St Paul says the bread and wine are Christ’s body and blood – you say otherwise – me, I’m with St Paul.
LikeLike
Ill take that to mean good brothers Hitler, Himmler, Hoess, Ribbentrop, Torquemada Heydrich et al are all saved and will join us at the Lords supper. We are not to speculate on who is going to hell, Jesus said. So, if your position is that communion grants one a place in heaven, then we have solved the mystery and that settles the matter.
Thank you. I am now satisfied.
LikeLike
Nowhere did I say anything of the sort. Paul says eating the body and blood of the Lord unworthily leads to destruction.
LikeLike
Ah, so that is your caveat. Icannot argue with that one. Because most people, church goers, protestant and catholic and Mormon alike, will awake in hell, even thought they took communion. Bottom line is, communion isn’t a sure way of salvation.
LikeLike
Since no one says it is, no one will argue with that.
LikeLike
Where does Bosco get the idea that the RCC teaches that one receives communion and “presto chango” is saved?
LikeLiked by 1 person
Possibly the same anti-Catholic sites he gets the rest from.
LikeLike
I don’t make stuff up. Im not smart enough. Ive been yacking with catholics for about 8 yrs now. Ive heard that the communion is where they meet Jesus and eat his flesh like the Master says. If that’s not how the CC give slvation, then I don’t know what they teach on the subject of actual salvation. I do know what they teach has nothing to do with what they actually wind up doing. The CC teaches against homosexuality and adultery. The two mainstays of the priesthood.
LikeLike
I agree you aren’t smart enough – but you think you understand, and you simply understand nothing.
LikeLiked by 1 person
You do produce the most awful tosh.
LikeLiked by 1 person
To anyone with a modicum of common sense, not to menton those who have actually attended the ceremony and followed along with the text, the deacon is clearly singing about Jesus Christ. The conspiracy theorists are quick to accuse the hymn of enthroning Satan as messiah in place of Jesus, as Catholics have always apparently
been wont to do since Saint Peter’s day. Strangely, these accusers, who are probably all Protestants claiming to be speaking the Biblical truth, are unaware that Scripture itself calls Jesus the morning star
ibid
Im aware of what scripture says. Your leader Lucifer was a glowing bright son of god, the chief of the sons. He was coverd in bright jemstones.
My god is the Lamb, crucified befor the foundation of the world. Your god is Lucifer, spoken by your own mouths.
LikeLike
Your cut and paste seems to have produced an odd result – something sensible followed by the usual guff from you.
LikeLike
Lucifer is called “son of the morning”, not morning star.
Isaiah 14;12
LikeLike
Poor Bosco. Lucifer in latin means Light – Christ is the light of the world – or did no one tell you?
LikeLike
Ill take your word for it.
Thank you Lucifer
LikeLike
You can always look it up. 😄
LikeLike
In the bible, Satan was a light bearer, so I don’t have trouble believing that. Ill take your word on that. I have bigger fish to fry that the CC calling Jesus Lucifer. That’s an internal issue for catholics…..not my concern.
LikeLike
My concern is that you come across as an idiot to anyone who knows anything about the subjects you cover. You have an eternal soul and if Jesus is in you, he cannot be driving you to write rubbish. I want you to go to heaven.
LikeLike
Hello Chalcedon. I only read your essay, none of the replies yet, so this may have already been brought up. If so, I apologize for repeating. But what jumped right off the page at me was your reference to the Gospel of Matthew. Here are your words: “But it must be emphasised that in its official teaching the Church relies, as it always does, on the words of Jesus, who, according to St Matthew, said that at death people would be separated into two groups – everlasting punishment or eternal life.” No. That talk given by Christ is all about the Second Coming and the Final Judgement, not each individual’s particular judgement at death as you’ve stated. Matthew 25:46 comes as the last verse of a discourse that the Church has always known and taught was about the Second Coming, not as you’ve stated each persons particular judgement at death. Now, the rest of your paragraph relies on this false premise. The Church has always taught there are two judgements, particular and final or last. If you eliminate Purgatory and claim as you do, that the two fold division leaves no proofs to substantiate Purgatory, in a way you’re correct because there is no Purgatory after the Last Judgement which the passage refers to. But you’ve moved the separation of the sheep and the goats at the Final Judgment up to the individual’s particular judgements, as you’ve said that they get separated into two groups at death. I feel you are mistaken in your basic premise. The Church has never taught that this passage refers to a person’s individual judgement at death.
There is more I can say, but I need to start dinner and its meatloaf and mashed potatoes so I’ll be a while in the kitchen. I hope you are having a marvelous New Year so far. God bless. Ginnyfree.
LikeLike
As I specifically mention purgatory and quote from the Catechism, it is interesting that either both it and I are in error, or you are reading it in a way I have not written it.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Hello Chalcedon. Your words, not the Catechism, state that Matt. 25:46 and verses preceding are about a person’s particular judgement at death, or as you said “they are separated into two groups at death.” This is not so. These passages from Matthew are about the Last Judgement, not that which happens to us all upon death. Then I said that the Church has always used them that way. Of course there is no reference to Purgatory as at the Last Judgement, Purgatory will exist no more. I explained a teaching the Church has always held: that there are two judgements, the particular one we all face at death and the Last Judgement after the Second Coming of Christ. That is the one that the passages of Matthew refer to. So you are a little off to claim that the Catechism supports your theory that Matthew’s Gospel supplants Purgatory in these passages. Poppycock. All of Scripture is taken as a whole and you cannot pit one verse against another. I hope you understand my points. God bless. Ginnyfree.
P.S. The meatloaf is in the oven and smells marvelous. Was one of my departed hubby’s favorites. No peas though. It would be perfect with sugar snap peas and cherry pie afterwards. But he is not here, so no peas and no pie.
LikeLike
My sympathies good sister.
So what happened to purgatory and the people in it?
LikeLike
My second paragraph specifically describes the three routes at the particular judgment. I state (2nd para):
“At death the soul is judged – this is known as the particular judgment. There are, the Church teaches, three outcomes to this judgment immediately after death: immediate unification with Christ; conditional unification, which is commonly called Purgatory; and immediate rejection which is eternal damnation…”
I cite the Matthew passage in the context of the last judgment. I had imagined that people would have read the second paragraph and realised what this was referring to. I agree the wording could have been more specific, but not that I was suggesting that anything supplants Purgatory – except of course the final judgment.
Hope the meatloaf was good!
LikeLike
Meatloaf was excellent. I out did myself. Only one problem. I shouldn’t have mentioned the cherry pie that usually went with it cause I missed dessert. Leftover Christmas cookies while thinking of warm cherry pie. God bless. Ginnyfree.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Ah, cherry pie – excellent – sounds as though everyone was well fed 🙂
LikeLike
I just listened to the following sermon
[audio src="http://jpaudio.s3.amazonaws.com/Edited%20Files/Sunday%20AM/JP85-87%20Matthew/Sermon/85am027Mat2_s_e.mp3" /]
on the OT quotes in Matthew 2.
At 25.58 in, there is an interesting thought about the children killed in Herod’s pogrom. ‘In their brief lives they have won immortal fame. They died for the Christ whom they never knew. These lambs were slain for the sake of the lamb who lived while they died, that by his death they might live forever.’
Instead of dwelling on the bad things that happen to people who go to hell, any thoughts on who goes to heaven?
LikeLiked by 1 person
… apologies – the attempt to cut-and-paste the link didn’t work.
LikeLike
God alone knows, and as he is the only Just Judge, that is the way it has to be. I suspect some people will be rather surprised at who they meet there.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Whipping ones self to gain favor from The Almighty. How positively medieval. I wish to, at this time, to take back all my unkind words about the catholic church. There is never a dull moment with you catholic chaps. Observing catholics in their natural habitat is worth every penny of the price of admission.
LikeLike
Poor Bosco. Your level of understanding is so low that it is only out of courtesy I respond.
LikeLike
Top o the morning to ye good brother
LikeLike