Is it possible that we might correct many of our problems by simply examining how we go about determining the appropriateness of the categories into which we tend to place things? I tend to think so.
Religion is, in its purest respect, a ‘binding’ to a set of beliefs; a living out of those beliefs in the world. But we tend to use the word to express simply what one believes in connection to God or gods and how we worship our deity/deities. So we have a subset of religion (proper) being used to describe our Western values, which, in a restricted sense, all should support, known by the phrase, religious liberty. I would say that the wider society does not accept religious liberty for all religions or we would have outward examples of religions which practice human and animal sacrifice or religions that rely upon illegal hallucinogenic substances to get closer to their spirit gods. And then, of course, there are those demon worshippers that are categorized as religions who find that orgies and raping of young children is an expression of their devotion to the demon of their choice. I am not sorry that we exclude them from the protection that we call religious liberty. It seems that the wider society (of Western Europe and most civilized societies) has agreed that this is non-sensical . . . or at least found it so in the past. But strictly speaking, they are religions with beliefs and practices and ways of life; though they are not acceptable to our way of life or thinking. So these religions and religious practices are usually practiced behind closed doors and out of the eyes of society . . . illegally. In other words we do discriminate against and even forbid certain religions and/or religious practices; thank God.
Now culture is very much influenced by the predominant religion or religious beliefs and practices among a particular society. So they are not usually completely distinct from one another. This new, modernest, giddiness regarding multi-culturalism is a faddish, empty phrase without much regard to what that phrase might mean to an established society or nation. Where religion binds people to both a way of life and to one another, culture is mostly reserved to a common set of customs (speech, diet, music, holidays, dance, dress, wearing of hair etc.) which distinguish one culture from another. If that were the whole of it, few would be repelled by multiculturalism within a society as long as it was considered decent. In other words, walking about naked with spears and clubs might not be appropriate in NYC (though I think I’ve seen that there . . . or was that San Francisco). But where culture is fueled by religion, we have a clash of religion and a clash of culture going on. Among the simple varieties of people that still hold most of the principles that our civilization continues to uphold (human values; such as a prohibition against murder, theft, rape etc.) there might still be some peace possible amid the many differences: arguments and fights perhaps but in large we would try to get along. But if a culture that prizes cannibalism or some other heinous act were to make its way into our society at large, it would be prohibited and eradicated with due haste. Once again, we do discriminate against certain cultural practices as well; and as before, thank God.
There should be restrictions on certain customs, cultures and religions if they are incompatible with society as a whole. For such may be the case for these differences which can and do place other people in harms way, unravel the fabric of a universal ethos, or hold beliefs that make them as useful as a parasite. Such might be the case by refusing to engage in the commerce of their host nation because they hold to a set of beliefs or ideologies that contend, for instance, that government is responsible for their well-being. They will not fight for their host nation nor will they abide by the laws because they feel that they are unjust. They simply want to form a society within a wider society that collects the benefits from the larger without leaving their smaller enclave which holds to norms and practices antithetical to the wider population. Or worse, they could be subversive; wishing to overthrow the present order of things in order to place the wider society under the restraints and political systems that might be dictated by their ideology, culture or customs.
I think we have already, in this country, gone too far in our categorizing of religions. For instance, is Scientology truly a religion or a culture that developed among men which deserves to be listed among the religions of this planet? Not in my book but maybe that is just me. But then, neither would I give religious status to the Wiccan or Satanist or any similar cult. This brings me to our most perplexing problem of this 21st century: how do we categorize Islam? For if it is a religion, as most contend, then it is afforded rights though that does not prevent us from the right to violate their religious liberty or culture should we choose to place them in the same category as others of which I spoke above. I think that perhaps we have made the religion category too wide and further, we have made the system of Islam too small in calling it merely a religion and culture: for it is far more than that.
Islam has a religious component for sure: though the beliefs of this religion seems to be under review as being an unsuitable fit to live beside non-Muslims and especially Jews and Christians. Their culture, likewise has components that are glaringly in opposition to Western culture, such as their treatment of women and the veiling of faces to wit we cannot identify the person should legal reasons require it. But, far worse yet is that there is an ideologically driven and elaborate framework therein that fosters its own type of governance according to their own rule of law which is often in direct contradiction to the rule of law of many Western Nations. Their belief that all infidels must either submit to their faith or pay a tax is also not compatible with the melting pot ideals that have swept from the US through the EU in recent years. It seems many would like to force a square peg in a round hole and it is not going to work now and I do not foresee a time when it will ever work.
Yes, we all know some ‘good’ Muslims from our schools or work which seem to have assimilated into our society. We are loathe to maintain that they are a danger and yet the terrorists whom have perpetrated much harm on our societies were also known as good, well-assimilated people as well. It is always a shock for the neighbors and co-workers of these individuals. Terrorists are quite adept at placing themselves below the radar of most people. And part of that problem is expressed in this article. So what should we do?
At present we differentiate between the ‘good’ non-fundamentalists and the ‘evil’ jihadists. Yet there is a segment, and if I believe that the interviews with ordinary Muslims in our cities was not a setup, a very large segment who believe in Sharia and support, at least morally, the actions of the fundamental Islamists. Some are not ashamed to say that if they could choose to live under Sharia or the Constitution of the US that they would choose Sharia. This is to me not a problem that requires us to persuade them to our point of view but conversely a problem, for those of such a mind, that common sense would dictate they be on the next boat bound for another Islamic state.
Immigration laws and welfare laws are being used against us. They are being utilized to remake entire nations into nations that were hitherto confined primarily to the Middle East. So the question in regards to Muslims is are they of sufficient threat to our way of life to be banned from entry or are they ‘mostly’ benign and how do we know? I know my leanings but it would be interesting to hear from others about how they would assure that their posterity is not being put into jeopardy, or if the other religions and cultures present in our society will survive; not forgetting the nation as we know it and as it was delivered us.
For a different analysis (but with similar conclusions) of this situation you may like to read the following article, also linked above, before responding.
This is really interesting and raises some questions which stretch us. I hadn’t thought so, but you are right, we don’t practice religious liberty. If someone wishes to burn his widow on his funeral pyre, we’re not going to let him. If someone thinks sex with little girls a culturally acceptable thing, our answer is ‘not in our culture’.
In terms of Islam, we have no trouble with those who embrace what it was they came to find that their own society did not offer. I think our problems are with those, often of a younger generation, who, having a romantic and unrealistic view of the society from which their parents fled, want to make our society like it.
Thank you for stimulating our thoughts here 🙂
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Glad to have your thoughts on this as well. You Britts have many more of them as a percentage of your population so it will be interesting to get more input from another perspective. 🙂
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I think that is how it comes out here. The older generation, which came here for a good reason, are quite happy to accept the conditions, as it were, but some of the younger ones, especially if they can’t get jobs and have experience being racially abused, don’t understand what it was their parents left, and think that introducing it here would be helpful!
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Aye, but are the willing to go along to get along with the more avid Muslim believers? I think that there is a large compliment of the Muslim population that implicitly supports the Jihad by their refusal to take a stand. Indifferentism can lead to activism. Did you read the linked article, Jess? I thought Wm. Kilpatrick made some good points. 🙂
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I did, and think the articles makes good sense. The problem here is the difficulty of talking about ‘Muslims’ as a unity, because they aren’t. We have some self-appointed ‘leaders’ who make a good living as ‘community leaders’ (almost wrote ‘organisers’ there, can’t think why!) who do not actually want us to solve the problems from which they earn a living.
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I wonder why that sounds so familiar? Well, we have fundamentally changed America in a short amount of time . . . and I am not very happy for it. But will it last? If they keep rigging the vote by packing the house with those who do not hold to the Judeao-Christian ethics that bound this country together it won’t. I guess then, we will be in for an actual clash (read civil war) within our nation. Is that what we want or can we avoid it by some use of common sense? I just don’t know if I can place much hope in the common sense of the people anymore.
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Much in here, Dave, and Jess’ comment highlight it well. All know that I’m a believer in secular (and neutral) government and that I have a pretty strong libertarian streak, which can be stated as “Leave me alone” There are limits, however.
Much of that comes together here, we don’t practice full religious liberty, but where is the line? It is here, and best stated from the libertarian viewpoint. “Your liberty ends when it harms another person, as does mine.”
As for the burning of widows, I think General Sir Charles Napier had it about right.
“Be it so. This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefore erect gibbets on which to hang all concerned when the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to national customs.”
And may the superior customs win.
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To the latter statement . . . unfortunately . . . the deck can get stacked. And if we democratically inclined countries don’t want to have a baby war then we need to think about immigration policies.
Also your libertarian quote is great but again, with all things, who decides when harm has been done? Today, one need only declare that they are offended and hurt and down goes your Christmas decoration or your greeting of Merry Christmas: or if you are in the UK I suppose you might spend some time in jail for hate speech crimes.
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The quote speaks only of actual physical harm. A proper world learned at its mother’s knee that “Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me”
Unfortunately, many in our societies are 3 year olds masquerading as adults. Sadly, life has harsh lessons in store for them.
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And indeed that is how I think our society presently is dealing with the situation. We have yet to have a ‘big boy’ discussion on many basics concerning 1) what we should and do believe as a nation, and 2) what we can and cannot tolerate in groups or other nations wanting a place at the table.
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No argumen, and as I just said to Phillip, all countries have a right to control their immigration, even European ones.
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More than a right . . . they have a duty. Agreed. 🙂
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🙂 Yay!
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I have been prompted to write my own response to this on the donkey blog. It does include some praise for this blog too. http://equusasinus.net/2015/12/18/a-kick-in-the-categoricals/
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I enjoyed your thoughtful response . . . thank you. It is a most difficult problem: it engages our values, our faith, our reason and our emotions. I do hope we in the Western world will take the time to thoroughly discuss these issues and even the things which we take for granted: such as the categories we have placed things in. At this point I am simply trying to do as St. Pio always advised: pray, hope and don’t worry.
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Thanks, Dave. I have obviously been inspired by your piece to write my own thoughts on the donkey blog, so I am grateful for the stimulus. I am not sure if we are disagreeing, as I find it easy to agree with you; but at the same time I think I should not agree with you. We all seem to think the present choices suggest a five hundred year “war against terrorism” or the instant loss of our own identity. In fifty years time it might all look a litle sad in retrospect, and Islamism will probably have long died out.
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I only pose questions that I have pondered and find your ‘disagreement’ very similar to thoughts I too think are an important part of the puzzle. Your article described how, in small areas, you have lived side by side with these other cultures and religions without much problem. You are also very right as your ‘good samaritan’ story points out that among individuals we find God’s goodness expressed in sometimes very surprising ways . . . and where our own brothers and sisters seem not to see us or that we have a need that they could meet.
And then there are the national decisions to be made where they do not have the ability to evaluate each individual but only the culture or the religion or the ideology or the desire to meld with the culture and adopt the laws of the land . . . and even defend it to the death. In this we seem to have two conclusions that don’t necessarily come together in a way that is going to satisfy our sense of justice and charity.
We need to talk a lot more and lay it all out and make some decisions for our time but for the future as you say. It may end as you say . . . or it might be the spark that creates an inferno. We simply don’t have a crystal ball to help us in this one.
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Oh thank you SO much xx That is such a nice thing to say. I loved your piece – what you say is a message well worth a wider hearing too 🙂 xx
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Before the UK joined the EEC back in the 1970’s, all the witches and warlocks were confined to the Isle of Man as their practises elsewhere in the realm were forbidden by law. The Isle of Man had their own government and the “cat of nine tails” was employed rather than jail terms for certain offences.
Under the treaty of accession signed off by the UK governments to join the EEC, the practice of using the cat of nine tails or other physical punishments like the stocks and the debarring of witches and warlocks from the rest of the kingdom had to be rescinded.
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Interesting, Ann. Western countries it seems were willing to ‘meld’ into a common practice for the sake of unity. But in the process, it seems, there are those little square pegs who will never fit being given ‘equal’ respect. I think, even without the EEC we are seeing this sweeping around the globe in the older civilized countries.
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This threat of terrorism is true evil. However, there must be an understanding that true evil will devour itself. I believe we, Christians, have a great weapon to combat this evil and that is love. It’s certainly our human nature to cling to everything we can of this temporal world; nonetheless, we must realize the world will fade away, and Christ has will ask us how did we love?
Mt. 25: 31-16 RSV:
31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
Are Muslims still not God’s children? Are they not our brothers and sisters through God? For instance, I can’t control how many refugees come to this nation, but I can certainly treat them with love. One of the university muslim student organization’s is having a clothes drive for them. I can donate clothes to them while wearing my crucifix, in return, they will see a Christian providing Christ’s love.
In all of decisions, in accordance to refugees, immigrants, etc. We must give them the human dignity, the human dignity that God demands us to give. In return, we must trust that God’s love through us may afford a chance for philosophical revolution within their religion and culture.
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*Mt. 25: 31-41 RSV
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Well of course that is all true and we should do our best to set a good example. But, many will say that headhunters and canibals are God’s children as well. Prudence informs us that we do not want to invite one to dinner or to spend the night. Nor do I want them living in my neighborhood. Should I, risk the lives of my children and my other peaceful neighbors to those who even ‘respect’ Sharia and who idolize the ‘warrior’ prophet who espouses the killing of those who do not submit to the law of that belief? Again, prudence might be listened to: how then to do so using temperance, justice and fortitude. To avoid having to deal with the duties of justice and fortitude, it might be more merciful to leave them among their own for both our sakes.
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You have justifiable concerns. I suppose it’s the dilemma of how to evangelize and allow each person their conscience, even in error, but yet help to teach them of their error. Of course, this is much the subject of Dignitatis Humanae
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It is fine to try to reach our opinions regarding our different faith bases . . . individually. But I am more concerned in this post to examine what do Western Nations (composed of Jews, Christians, Buddhists and non-believers etc.) think as a people. I don’t think we have examined the issues nearly at the depth of even common-sense to date. And there is an admixture of ideas and feelings of how one tries to mix water and oil so that we function as a country with a basic common ethos.
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What makes you any better.? You belong to a scary bloodthirsty cult that burned and torture millions because they were at odds with your religion.
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I am reminded that one time I was sitting in the university cafeteria at a table alone. The cafeteria was fairly full so a young woman approach me and asked if she could sit with me. She was very kind and very beautiful. After a brief discussion, I learned she was from Turkey and she was muslim, albeit a ‘liberal’ Muslim, as she was dressed in western clothes.
In the discussion, she had very normal concerns in regards that she was just worried about getting a job for employment for her family and so she could renew her visa. She was very devout in her faith, speaking of ‘God’ in almost every other sentence.
It would be difficult to be cold to her. Many would be concerned that she could be ‘radicalized’ but at that moment she was human being, kind and beautiful with everyday concerns.
We must be continue to be conscious and reminded of the good in the face of evil and allow Christ’s compassion to enter our hearts.
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First, was it because she was beautiful that you told her it was OK to sit with you? 🙂
Secondly, all that is true: every soul is a human being created by God. That said: we still have to go about the business of living in socieities promoting as much peace within our own communities as possible. Again, the question becomes, is a common community ever going to be forged between Islam and non-Islamic peoples. It has never really lasted or proven so in the past . . . so what lesson do we take away, if any? If strife between Jew and Muslim or Christian and Muslim or with (actually all non-Muslims) is almost a given . . . since they are not adverse to using the sword to enforce Sharia, how do we ‘just get along?’
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It may have made me more agreeable to interact with her, but I would have said it was okay to sit regardless. Beauty may be a road to seduction, but it’s also can be a road to truth. In this case, it may have led to conversation, but I learned the value of her humanity because of it.
I have no issue with immigration laws. However, I do believe we must caution targeting specific groups of people wholesale. We must not so easily forget the events of the 20th century, but that being said let us not be prisoners to political correctness and be afraid to have these discussions. Hawks and Doves both serve their purpose.
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Beauty is truth, and truth beauty. That is my belief and I’m sticking to it. 🙂
I have no problem excluding whole groups of peoples. If the Nazi Party folks who were streaming into Argentina (and few snuck past us here) we would certainly have banned them. The same could be said of the old mainline Soviets. A govenment has to exercise common sense. If a group that espouses that all should believe or live a certain way which is not in conformity to the people of a certain country, they should not be admitted. After all, the government is there to protect its citizens not to show people how tolerant we are of foreign ideals. We are very tolerant but in the name of common sense have become so tolerant that our own existence is now to be put in peril?
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Also, Philip, keep in mind that we are not obligated to take anyone in . . . we have done so, however, as an act of charity from the beginning. It does not mean that we cannot change our thinking on the liberality of how we now regulate immigration.
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I agree with you and have known quite a few Muslims who were by no means even close to radicalization. That said, it blew up recently because Trump says he wants a moratorium on immigration until we can figure out some rational vetting procedure. That strikes me as close to common sense as trump has ever come. Whoever on his staff that included American citizen is beyond the pale, though. We’ve always vetted, in some manner, our immigrants, even if it was only overt leukemia, so that is reasonable, and justified.
It’s just as justified for any country because it goes to the heart of what a country is, or ought to be.
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Quite right: that is why illegal immigration is not something that anyone should support. We must be protected from disease, insurgents, crazies of all sorts, as well as professional beggars. No way to do that if we don’t vet them . . . and today the vetting needs be done much more stringently than in the past. The damage a few terrorists can do is astonishing if they get hold of the right ‘goodies.’
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Yes, indeed. My point is that it does emphatically not exclude our normal (Christian) charity.
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No it doesn’t . . . it is an act of great prudence.
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Yes, it goes to the first duty of the State, “Provide for the common defense”.
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Precisely and it is why we do not have colonies of cannibals in Nebraska. 🙂
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Well that, and that the proposed victims are armed. BTW Jess has an excellent post on leadership up on NEO, marking her return to our blog as well. It’s here:
https://nebraskaenergyobserver.wordpress.com/2015/12/18/the-democratic-process/
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Thanks, I’ll look in.
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Thought you might! 🙂
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I the city I came from in Wales there is old pastor of a Baptist church simply encouraging his people to reach out in practical ways to help the Muslim immigrants. The church also runs free courses teaching them English. There expression of love has resulted in quite a number of them converting to Christianity.
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Christ is love. Christ has given us the challenge to share that love. It is certainly possible for us to be put on a cross like our saviour but we must not allow ourselves to be swayed by such temporal things.
These are not abstract concepts but instead the call of the Holy Spirit. Acts of love do not have to be huge gestures, love is a gesture on its own. Let us listen!
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Pingback: A Kick in the Categoricals | Equus Asinus
Dave, good thoughts. This was posted at a blog that seems to take up too much of my time. This discussion has to come down to how many deaths are we willing to accept before we do something. Also, the commenters seems to be very intelligent and thoughtful. So read them!
http://voxday.blogspot.com/2015/12/how-many-dead-americans-are-you-willing.html
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Well it is not quite the way I would have stated this. In my thinking, there is a larger personal risk which we might risk (for ourselves alone) due to charity for another. Then there is almost no risk that we would assume for our immediate family and friends. And by this logic it seems to me that a government elected to protect and safeguard the people ought to act more like a father to its citizens. So what I might conclude as a single man without any family or friends is at one end of a spectrum and those whom we rely upon to keep all of its citizens safe must err (if they are to err) on the side of the health and safety of its own citizens). After that is assured, they may shower others with aid and charity as long as they have the ability and the money to do so.
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How many lives are lost in South Chicago every weekend? And in most large urban cities? And Obama does not care. I read that 45 lives have been lost to Muslims after 9/11 in the USA. And Obama does not care. Which is the larger concern? In my administration I would solve both. I would have the National Guard in Chicago tomorrow. Then after we learned what worked, more cities would be freed from drug gangs and violence. President Nixon started our 40 year war on drugs and it sure looks like it has been a complete failure. New tactics are needed. A wall on the southern border, no (that’s ZERO) new immigration from 30 Muslim countries, no travel for American citizens to & from those countries, no (that’s ZERO) new visas for any reason and current visas holders from those countries would have 30 days to leave. The military would control all ports and airports. After our southern border is secured, no (that’s ZERO) new immigration from Mexico or any country in central or South America without proving source of support, employment, and education. All current federal and state benefits would be forbidden to those who could not prove US citizenship and pass a drug test every 3 months. All current illegal immigrants must leave the country or prove source of support, employment, education, AND no criminal history.
Of course, Fred, would be a prized asset to the White House.
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He would. Fred will be happy to sniff our the bad guys.
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Jay Smith regularly and boldly debates radical Muslim at Hyde Park corner in London UK – he refers to them as his friends.
At training conference on Islam that I attended in London over 10 years ago Jay provided the following information.
How Muslims in the UK Defined Themselves Pre 9/11 and the Iraq War:
15% Radical: They follow the scriptures and the prophet and consider themselves radical. 70% are nominal Muslims following the traditions and cultural adaptations of Islam. 15% Liberal Muslims followed western culture and assimilate – they dislike the Quran and are escaping it in the west. They claim Islam is a religion of peace and having rejected the Quran are trying to repackage their faith.
How Muslims in the UK Defined Themselves Post 9/11 and the Iraq War:
25% of Muslims surveyed considered themselves radical. Perhaps now as many as 43% considered themselves radical. However this is a guess as since the last survey Muslims in the UK have not wanted to carry out any more surveys.
Percentages of Radical Muslims in Other Nations:
Turkey 31%, Morocco 45%, Jordan 51%, Pakistan 65% i.e. 80 out of 140 million!
Radicalism is not limited to insignificant numbers there’s many groups, violence is spiralling upwards. The book ‘In The Shade of The Quran’ is a standard for radical Muslims. Radical Muslims claim that suicide bombing is justified when resisting forces greater than their own.
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That is frightening, Rob. The other part that was brought forward by Kilpatrick’s article that I link to is that even among those who are not radicalized there is a strong pull to side with the perceived ‘winner’ and the perceive ‘flow’ of their faith. It is the old ‘go along, to get along’ syndrome. Now the question is for our governments to decide how much risk they are willing to take for their own citizenry? I really don’t know if they have the present population’s health and welfare in mind at this point. They simply do not want to be seen as not being politically correct. They must ‘appear’ to be tolerant and loving though they have no problem showing intolerance to Christians or Jews these days. It seems there is a disconnect between the risk/reward facts and the progressive non-negotiables that their political elitist positions require for re-election.
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From what I have studied it is the radicals that set the tone and agenda in Islamic society.
“Where Islam is practiced in its purest form, the virtue police patrol the streets, and everyone understands that if they convert to another religion they can be executed for apostasy …”
Such pressure definitely encourages the go-along with the flow approach which need not be a sign of support for violence. Nevertheless that is cold comfort for societies receiving large numbers of Islamic immigrants. I do not know of any majority Islamic state that allows the free conversion of Muslims to another faith. Further in the UK there have been a number of honour killings in Muslim families resulting from perceived disgrace of Islam. In one case a young woman’s body was found buried in the family’s garden.
I read your previous post and it makes a lot of sense. As Christians in Western societies we face 2 issues what should we do as Christians and what should we vote/encourage our secular leaders to our do. The former has been clearly set out by Philip – the latter I think (at least in UK we will be able to do little about as our leaders do not listen to the voice of those considered non-PC.
If in a position of government I would go along with Trump and agree with you that the first duty of a countries leaders is the safety of its citizens. So how should the West act in relation to the millions who want to escape conflict zones in Syria/Iraq? I would go along with the suggestion of creating a safe zone in the area by military action.
Another thought we might consider is the spiritual dimension – I have read reports of more converts to Christ from amongst Muslims than at any other time in history. I wonder how the Lord’s purposes will work out in relation to the movement of Muslim peoples into traditionally Christian regions. This time around the outcome may not follow that of historical Islamic expansion.
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I tend to agree with much of that . . . though the historical expansion has been going on for a long time now. They have moved into almost every nation in the world to some extent and beginging to curry favor among the ruling classes in many places. In democratic countries . . . even if they remain largely peaceful . . . thier votes and their expansion via large numbers of children will almost guarantee that if they hold to sharia privately, it will also become an aim publicly at some juncture. It is a tought problem . . . we want to be loving and fair to those who want to escape tyranny and yet one freed many of them wish to make their adopted home more Islamic. That is perilously close to what is called treasonous activity . . . and during a time of war, it would be. Hard decisions must be made but first we need to have that grownup discussion without all the PC termpering of the voices.
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My thought on their current expansion was along the line that they may or may not come to dominate certain regions but nevertheless this time around there may also be much more of an evangelistic breakthrough amongst them. Their migration into regions of previous Christian culture is a wake-up call to the church and God may have a providential purpose in it.
When I was younger the boggy man of the faith was communism and much evangelical attention and underground evangelism was directed towards communist regimes. We were much less conscious of Islam and should have taken the hint from scripture that the child of the bondwoman would persecute the child of the free. Communism was clearly a far less potent foe than Islam.
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Yes and no. Communism has gone stealth these days and Marxism is alive and will in Socialistic circles. In fact, who did the Muslims side with during the Second World War? Ideologically, I think there is some synergy there: for both National Socialists and the Muslims believe in a purity . . . a purity of blood for one and a purity of belief in the other.
As to numbers being converted to Christ . . . it probably is up. However, out of 1.6 billion that would be expected. I am wonder if it is up by a percentage of the total however. I tend to think not.
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The following links to a long article on evangelical growth in Islamic regions. The extract below, in case you do not get through the whole link, is about a couple that have spoken at conferences I have attended.
http://worldrevivalnetwork.blogspot.com.es/2015/09/the-underground-revival-in-middle-east.html
One of the best examples of the expansion of Christianity within Muslim lands is through the work of Heidi and Roland Baker. Along with their church plants and trained workers from Iris Ministries, the Bakers have made an extraordinary impact on the brutal nation of Mozambique. The province that they currently operate in was entirely Muslim before their arrival, but a little over ten years later those figures have changed drastically. Kelly Head from Christ For The Nations writes,
“The Bakers are now based full-time in Pemba, Mozambique, in an area where Heidi says was once called a ‘graveyard to missionaries.’ But recently the government announced publicly that it’s no longer a Muslim providence; now it’s a Christian providence.”
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That does seem to be a point of light in this darkness. I hope others can and will find more success in this endeavor.
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The link was interesting, Rob and I hope that the birthrate of Muslims is not larger than the conversion rate.
I always thought that we might have better success with Muslims by starting our conversation with the Sufis as they care little for politics and the legal aspects of their faith . . . they are the spiritual side of the Islamists minus all the bad stuff. We might, therefore, make some inroads in working with them and talking with them. Any thoughts?
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I have read about the Sufis but have never met one I suspect they are spiritually inclined people on a true search for God. Several other Sunni Muslims have attended church with me and couple have professed conversion, one of who I became convened was insincere and just wanted to escape family responsibilities as the oldest son in a Muslim family.
I’m sure that conversions to Christ do not yet equal their birth rate but what is happening may become exponential.
Another strand of attack on Islam is coming from secular historians debunking the origins of Islam by presenting considerable evidence and alternate texts of the Quran. The revulsion of some Muslims towards the Jihadist may leave them open to consider this evidence.
Jay Smith held out some hope of large defections from Islam as a result of this work. In recent YouTube lectures he mentioned some work that will not be published until the death of its author as it is so damaging to the case for Islam. He likened its potential to the collapse of Protestant faith in the West resulting from theological scepticism and Higher Criticism etc. – we can hope and pray.
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Indeed we can and should, Rob.
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Rob, another point perhaps worth stating here is that isolation of incompatible ideologies, cultures or religions is not necessarily a bad thing. It might be more charitable to all involved rather than risk constant unavoidable conflicts where everybody loses. I doubt we are doing the Muslim culture any favors in trying to get them to submit to Western values, laws . . . especially the freedom and liberty we embrace; especially the equality of women.
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This is interesting as well. It seems that some Muslim converts to Christianity take their fundamentalist, non-acceptance of other faiths with them. It seems they cannot quite escape their culture altogether. http://www.ktnv.com/news/protesters-disturb-mass-at-catholic-churches-across-valley
I note that they do not carry on these same attacks in their old Mosques. I wonder why? Maybe they would be headless, if they did.
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I can sympathise over the fear of Catholic parishioners over this incident. I’m sure your right that a cultural carry over motivates these ex-Muslims, and that their actions can generate fear but I doubt very much they pose any threat of physical harm.
Its not a new phenomenon for enthusiastic preachers to act that way. George Fox the founder of the Society of Friends (Quakers) used to turn up at Anglican Churches, which he called ‘steeple houses’, and take over by preaching a fiery sermon.
I do not agree with the approach in property owned by others but have been considering handing out literature and speaking politely with members exiting Jehovah’s Witness meetings – some converts to orthodoxy make excellent Christian disciples. Friends of mine who were witness spent their lives taking aid to the poor in Romania even selling their home and renting a tiny apartment to fund their mission.
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But Rob even there, I am sure you behave respectfully and not be yelling at those who were exiting and telling they that they are going to hell. Also, would you consider (as they obviously don’t) using the same practice in front of a Muslim Mosque?
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I agree that their method and tone was atrocious and intimidating I would be respectful towards a sincere follower of any religion.
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That is what I thought . . . just as you are here. There is a huge difference.
I have had literature placed on my car’s windshield during Mass so that I might read it should I want. But this is beyond the pale and so disrespectful. Do they not understand the absolute sacrilege and defilement that a Catholic attributes to their actions? I doubt it matters to them but it shows a real illiteracy as to what we hold is going on at the Sacrifice of Holy Mass.
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