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I can’t imagine being able to be happy in heaven knowing that people I loved here on earth are in hell – or, in fact, any people, though I daresay Mr Hitler in hell wouldn’t worry me terribly – although maybe in my perfected state, it would. Any which way, the problem of hell haunts me, as it does many. We had a good discussion of it last week, and cleverer men and women than me have been foxed by it, so I’m going to follow up on Geoffrey instead of getting out of my depth on hell, I’ll do it elsewhere instead – so feel free to pull me out of the deep hole I am about to enter.
I’m glad Geoffrey agrees that only God knows who is going to heaven. I have a bias here, as many will. My later father was a wonderful man who I loved more than anyone. He was not a Christian, in fact he was, if anything, anti-Christian. But he promised my mother on her death-bed that he would make sure I was brought up in her Christian faith, and, bless him, that he did. Not all that waiting outside of churches and village halls ever brought him into the church, not even physically. He had his reasons for his views, but the one time I tried engaging him in it, he simply shut down the conversation with “I promised your late mother, and I’m doing nothing that would run counter to her wish. You’re a young lass and I could out argue you, and I’m not doing it so drop it.” I was indignant at the time. I was pretty sure (as you are when you’re 14) that I could out argue him, but later on I realised what he was doing, and how much it reflected his love for my mother and his respect for his pledged word. But he died as he had lived, outside any church and refusing to countenance any priest at his death bed. He never once said a word to deter me from my preferences, he drove me wherever I needed to go. Yet he should, by a strict reading, be unsaved. I can’t imagine being happy in heaven knowing he was in hell. So if sometimes I worry at this one like a dog at a bone, that’s the main reason – that and a soft heart (and no doubt head).
We are told , of course, that Heaven is beyond our imaginings, and that we shall be changed. Can we be so utterly changed that it would not matter to us if someone we once loved was suffering? If we are changed into a better likeness of God I can’t see how that could be, because we know God so loved us that He sent Jesus to live and die and be resurrected for us, and if our love is to be conformed to his love, isn’t it likely that we’d feel the same way? Such a puzzle, for sure – and I am thankful that we are told we must trust utterly in God.
My question is since being in the presence of Perfection would we even be aware of those not there?
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Unless were were so utterly changed that we forgot those we had loved – and if we did that, in what sense would we be us – if that makes any sense?
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Maybe, were so consumed by the Infinite Love…I don’t really know it’s just a thought.
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I agree David – it is so hard, and we have to be like children and just trust – so I do that π xx
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Trust so easy to say so hard to do.
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That’s so true David, especially when we’ve been hurt when we trusted π xx
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You know, that I walk with you here, as you know, my dad was somewhat similar although much less emphatically, in both cases I wonder though, we’re they not rather anti-church, rather than anti-Christian? From what you’ve said, your dad lived a good Christian life, he just wouldn’t put up with the church. There are parallels to Geoffrey’s (and again less emphatically, my) views on episcopacy.
But to your main point about the unease of people we love perhaps ending up in hell, yes, I completely agree, and it would be a cold perfection indeed; if those people were perfected out of our heart. But we can’t know, and that may be a good thing. π xx
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It’s a hard one, and I wonder whar might have happened if my mother had not died so young. He said a few times that if more Christians had been like her, he’d have had more time for the faith.
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That makes sense to me, we all are influenced by those around us, and everything I’ve heard says your mom was an exceptional woman. And you know, it’s true, I’m a better Christian for being here, than I was before, with just my local examples to emulate (or mostly, not).
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I do think there’s a very great deal in that. I certainly don’t see any point in frightening people. I never saw anyone brought to love by fear. Awe, is another matter – when I have stood in the Shrine at Walsingham and felt the presence of Our Lady, I was struck by awe and love π xx
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Something I’ve learned in reading our founding documents is that words actually do sometimes change their meanings, and fear is a salient example. Those old preachers weren’t afraid of preaching about sin and hell, but I don’t think they really meant to make everybody afraid, just communicate how awesome God really is. To bad so few get it today, but you know when I was a kid, I did sort of fear (in the modern sense) God, and it took awhile for that to turn into awe. That shrine, is awesome, even in your description of it. π xx
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Glad you liked my description of it – a very special place for us π xx
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Indeed it is, it runs as a constant thread all through our friendship. π xx
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Yay π xx
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Yay, Indeed π xx
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Reading between the lines what I hear you say is that your father was attracted to a pale reflection of Christ that your mother gave. All of us only present a very pale reflection of our Lord so Iβm making no particular assumptions.
If your dadβs response was positively to an inadequate presentation of Christ (he said Christianity) what would it be in the immediate presence and full beauty of Jesus love for him?
I strongly suspect his response to your mum reveals an attraction to Christ that he was perhaps consciously unaware of nevertheless it expressed the disposition of his heart.
Paul speaks of God βRendering to every man according to his deeds to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory honour and immortality he gives eternal lifeβ Rom. 2:7.
Who are these people? I do not think this passage is speaking of Christians. Paul has been summarising different categories of persons and has not yet presented the gospel of Christ. Also from my evangelical perspective I am not currently seeking eternal life I already possess it 1 Jn. 5:12, having received eternal life through new birth by the Spirit. So I conclude that those seekers of Rom. 2:7 are not yet Christians.
I donβt mean to imply a salvation by works β we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory that we were created for. The category Paul speaks of are those aware of their shortcoming while seeking good, honour and an immortal quality of life. If they were to reflect on this such people would acknowledge their only hope was in mercy and grace as the means of receiving it. They are humble types not those proud of their self-efforts.
What will such seekers see when they face Christ? They will see the Jesus the βimmortalβ one crowned with βglory and honourβ 1 Tim. 1:17. The very qualities they may scarcely have dared to consciously hope for, they will see in Jesus and their hearts desire will have at last have met its true object.
I do not envisage Christ turning such as these away but believe His ransom will be applied to them.
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Oh Rob, that’s so lovely and so, so helpful π xx
His experience of organised religion had been a bad one, and although he’d never go into what they were, it was clear they had left him bruised and sceptical of any religion which did whatever had happened to him. But it was, I think, the institution – he had no concept of Jesus as personal saviour, and I do think if my mother had lived, she might have shifted that view.
Thank you so much for these words – they are a balm in Gilead π xx
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Yes Jess, it is indeed a worry that many of us harbor in our hearts. My father never attended church just like his father before him . . . they thought of Jesus as a good man and another prophet, in a long line of prophets and good folk, who wanted to make the world a better place. I think my father thought the same of Einstein and merely looked at life and the cosmos as a great mystery . . . though I doubt he would have even used the word.
What is hard to fathom is that men, without Divine Revelation, have come up with much more agreeable (and seemingly more humane) solutions to purify the human soul and to get them all to the finish line. I much prefer the idea of reincarnation, guided by karma, to eventually, over enough lifetimes, reach perfection. In fact it even makes room for all sentient lifeforms to progress to that state. It is no wonder why it is so appealing to so many people in the world.
That said, we have Divine Revelation and we know that God’s ways are not our ways. I like to think that if we make it home to God we will be happy no matter if we are the only one there or if most folks were there. There’s not supposed to be any tears that have not been wiped away in heaven. We have to think thereby that this is the best of all solutions and that those in hell would not be happy anywhere else. A mystery indeed.
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I’m entirely with you dear friend. I trust in God’s infinite mercy and goodness. Anyone who sent His only Son to die for us sinners is so far above us that I can’t even speculate on what He might do π xx
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Indeed and this particular ‘mystery’ concerning hell has probably lost more would be believers than any other doctrine . . . because to the logic and standards most of humanity utilizes, eternal torment does not sound like the actions of a Good and Merciful God.
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Yes, I know that Dawkins uses this a lot. I certainly could not even respect, let alone, worship a Creator who made most of us for eternal suffering. I understand that some people may just refuse his love and doom themselves, but the idea of making billions of sentient beings just so they can fry in the lake of fire for ever? Who could worship such a monster?
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Well it is a great motivator to do good. π
Perhaps it is divine hyperbole to indicate that life without Him is torment . . . for it would be a life that is void of good, beauty, truth, justice, mercy, love etc.
But we must trust Him that whatever the nature of hell is and however many are there . . . if we end in heaven is because of Christ and if we end in hell it was our use of our freewill that got us there. So we do need to utilize this gift of freewill as best we can and pray that God forgive our misuse of such a gift.
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I’m never sure it is. Some of us (maybe just me, OK??) are contrary, and if someone says do this or else, will do the or else π But then that’s naughty of me!
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It is indeed dear friend. Now who is it that should be on the naughty step? π
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I already despatched Bosco to the corner until the urge passes – the school marm in me dies hard π xx
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Good to have your school marm discipline back again. π xx
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Thank you – he’s not the Messiah, he’s a very naughty boy π xx
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You missed nothing new from him during your absence my dear Jess. In fact we could come back in 10 years and would hear nothing different. π xx
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Bless him – he;’s our very own ‘speak your weight machine’ π xx
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Aye but I tire of him telling me that I’m overweight. π xx
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Ha! Ha! Very good π xx
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π xx
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Certainly not if He has to continually hold them in existence specifically in order for then to be tormented.
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Of course that is the theological and philosophical wondertings that were put forward. But for me, as a Catholic, until redefined as having been founded on a false tradition or what have you, we are bound (de fide) to believe that a spirit soul is created in time and exists forever. It also makes much sense in as much as Satan could have just been annihilated and evil temptation would not have taken root.
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I take your point about satan but some sensible arguments have been presented for God not taking that rout with him.
The question for me hinges on whether man was created with the power of unending life or whether it is a conditional gift.
If man by nature possessed unending life then eternal conscious torment or annihilation of that life by God would be the only possibilities.
If Christ actively upholds the existence of all things (as I believe scripture claims) then manβs everlasting life is conditioned by Christ continued action, He has just to cease such life-support and we cease to exist.
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Well the explicit nature in scripture is contested. It seems to come down to what your particual Church teaches or what you, yourself, prefers to believe. Until some great exegesis arrives at our doorstep that unites all Christians to a correction of theology as we know it . . . this is what we have: preferred belief rather than objective truth or even belief by consensus.
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In relation to the things to come we βsee through a glass darklyβ and there may be Godly wisdom as to why He has left it so. In this situation we are left to trust him while some matters remain uncertain – hope that is seen requires little trust under present circumstance faith has room to grow and strengthen if that is our inner inclination.
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Very true, Rob.
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Oh Jess, I really like the colors in the icon above. It is very nice. Good choice. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Isn’t it lovely? I do love icons – Bosco probably thinks I am a dreadful worshipper of them, but they just help me – don’t you think beauty is of God? He gives us such a beautiful world to remind us He is our loving Father.
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Beauty is one of the Divine Attributes and that is why our minds and hearts get lifted by things that are beautiful. They are a refulgence of of their Creator. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Dear Jessica, Your father sounds a good man and he must be left to the mercy of God. Hell is for those who love only themselves; that wasn’t your father; ergo…
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Ah, thank you Francis – so good to see you still here. I am SO much better now, almost back to whatever passed for ‘normal’ in my case π How are you? Do email if you want, still the same address π xx
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I will do; I think I still have your address. I am delighted you are back to the state of common-or-garden lunacy that I enjoy myself.
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That’s it – just it – the perfect phrase π xx
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Jess – it’s good to have you back – you do something special to the tome here π
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*Blushes* – but all the tanks are to you – if you hadn’t stepped in, this would have died – and I know better than most what you have on your plate π xx
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I have no doubt that C. won’t mind if I second his comment. The tone righted itself within minutes of your return.
And yes you still blush fetchingly! π
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I’m glad to hear it – hate to think I’d already become the dried up spinster I am destined to be π³ π xx
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Ha! Less true words have rarely been spoken. Your modesty is showing again! π xx
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I will tuck it away at once π xx
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An excellent plan, just don’t hurt your head on the overhead!. Moderation in all things, you know! π xx
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π xx And now, as the cleaners are here, I must away! So romantic, I know π xx
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Boo! Hiss! And here I was going to speak of the Stetson that UPS just brought me!. No romance left for us this day, anyway! π xx
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“though I daresay Mr Hitler in hell wouldnβt worry me terribly”
godwin’s law…
hitler cannot possibly be so far removed that he is unable to be saved? he blew himself in the head at the end of the war. perhaps he felt remorse for his actions and couldn’t stand living with them?
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Yeah, he was sorry for what he did.
How about a dose of reality?
He didn’t want to fall into the hands of the soviets. They would have tortured him slowly.
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Geoffrey agrees that only God knows who is going to heaven
That is most unfortunate, good sister Jess.
The NT writers are clear that the saved know they are saved. The holy ghost is not the author of confusion or doubt. The NT was penned by saved folks…that’s why the unsaved either don’t believe it or cant see it. Believe me….I was unsaved at one time. The preachers where I went to church told the crowd that they were all children of god. When I was born again, I knew every single one of them were on their way tohell.
You religious people have a form of godliness ,but deny the power thereof. You cant close your eyes and try to pretend what its like to be born again. I can tell you…its peace in knowing. Jesus is not the Price of doubt….hes the Prince of Peace.
Guess what…..if youre not sure youre save…..you aren’t.
Jesus stands at the door
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The problem here is that anyone can say they ‘know’ they are saved, and that is is plain from the NT that some of those were not (do re-read Corinthians and Galatians, remembering that those letters are addressed the the saints there all of whom thought they were saved).
You do, dear Bosco, seem to me to be mixing up two things. Knowing you are saved, fine, I see where the NT says that. But could be a dear and provide me with some verses which support the idea that if you are saved you know who else is? I can’t find them, which is probably just me. π xx
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my sheep know my voice.
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I didn’t know you had any sheep Bosco. I would have thought that there might be city ordinances against that.
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His problem here, as I see it anyway, is that no one doubts that we know Jesus’ voice, but I am not seeing where that means that I, as a sheep, know which sheep are saved. I don’t know if Bosco has ever worked with sheep, I have. I know just what Our Lord meant. The sheep do know your voice and will respond to it. But they do not respond to each other when they bleat. I sometimes think people brought up in cities know nothing about shepherding π xx
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He’s had the lecture before my good friend . .. but alas, with the usual expected result. π xx
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Sheep are, in my quite large experience, none too bright sometimes π xx
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Ha. Well said. π xx
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It’s so nice to be back with you all π xx
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We are enjoying it as well, dear Jess. π xx
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That’s good π xx
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Speaking of farm animals, a guy at my church was telling me (our treasurer to be specific) that the term “until the cows come home” was referring to the fact that cows don’t come home…dogs, cats, pigs, etc., will come home but cows don’t. Cows are fairly nice animals but they’re quite dumb.
In other news, has any one touched an electric fence before? I have! π
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I understand that. That is Jesus saying the saved know his voice. What I need is something saying one sheep knows another sheep.
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Yes, I know, you’ve got gods sheep coming out of your ears. They all know his voice, all of them. Theres one small problem…..only a few are saved. One can walk into a department store or a church service and odds are no one in there is born again.
Heres the deal; the born again are given a spirit that knows Jesus, personally. When that person runs into another soul that has been reborn, and they chat and exchange experiences, they can hear the voice of the Lord in their tone.How about an example?
A number of years ago, I found this TV show that seemd to be run by saved folks. Like a calvary chapel show, which they don’t have. It was called “Three Angels Broadcasting Network” or 3ABN for short. They sounded good, but something in the back of my mind was nagging me. I watched for about 2 weeks befor I noticed their hook……They went way out of their way not to mention they were 7th Day Adventists. One could actually be moved to ask Jesus into their heart thru this show, because they spoke the gospel. Gods word does not come back void. They are good at mimicking the born again, but its a false religion, as are all religions, but they aren’t as berserk as some religins, but they believe that their church is the one true church. Join them for salvation. Ive heard that line befor.
Once someone is changed, the HS guides them to other born again. I believe in a strong god. He does things. You religion people think god is afar off and doesn’t do things.You follow men and what men say. Your religion is based on works. One has to do something to find favor with the creator. Kneel on the proper knee and eat the cracker place on the tongue , not in the hand, otherwise the chicken wont come out and play the piano.
The born again huddle in living rooms and sit there in awe of what happened to them….young, old ,rich, poor, all sitting there bound together by one thing…..they were saved from the wrath of god. And they all know Jesus and have the new spirit.
Its my prayer that a born again soul comes to you and has a chat. All of you have said you don’t know anyone who says what I say, but you walk past them almost at least one a day.
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I don’t say that isn’t true, but I do say that that is not what the NT says – do you see the difference? I am sure you are right – for you – but I am not sure it is so for us all – or the NT would say so. Does that make sense?
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The 7th Day Adventist church teaches a number of errors and are exclusive in their attitudes β but their official doctrine is not that they are the only βsavedβ people or that you have to become one of them in order to be saved.
If you want to know what any sect or religion teaches its best the get it direct from them and check their own sources as some initial lie about their beliefs to deceive you and entrap.
Personally I did a study course with this organisation and spent some time in discussion with Adventist in order to accurately determine their beliefs.
As you frequently do β you have not spoken accurately about others.
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It would make sense if I was unsaved.
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It would make sense if the NT said it – I truly believe it tells us all we need to know about our salvation, and I think if we all needed to know who else was saved, it would tell us. This sounds like something which could divide us, surely? If the NT said it, you’d have me – but it doesn’t, does it?
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Paul knew who the saints were in other towns. He spoke of them. According to you and others, the saints cant tell a fellow saint. How did Paul know. Its a non issue for the born again, that’s why theres no formula for it. Do you really think the Lord is going to give someone a new spirit and then blind their eyes? No. Their eyes are opened. How did the early Christians know Paul was also born again? He was the last person they would consider saved. But, once they talked to Paul for a few mins, they knew he met the Lord, because they knew the same Lord. Its not magic.
You say this would divide us. Who is us? It doesn’t divide the saints. But it makes people In here upset with me. That’s just too bad. Because that’s the way it is.
Good news is, this man Jesus is at your door and knocks. Hes knocking this very second. Open and he will come and sup with you.
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Paul knew because they congregated in house churches, Bosco, he didn’t wander the streets and say ‘hi, you are saved, come with me’. What I think, or you think is fine, we’ve all got an opinion, but I base myself on what the Bible tells me – don’t you? There is no sign of what you say there!
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Good brother Rob, why do you feel the need to study that religion? How did I misrepresent them? I said they were just another phoney religion. Just like the C of M, the 7th Dayers have 95% good food and 5% poison. Unlike the Jehovas or Morons who have 5% good food and 95% poison.
Tellme good brother, do you spend a lot of time studying religions? Isnt Jesus enough for you?
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Jesus is certainly enough for me!
I have in the past made a study of all the major deviant Christian cults and world religions. My purpose is to understand where these people are coming from, to assist me in communicating the truth of Christ to them.
Sometimes it has proved necessary to first uncover their errors and the inconsistencies in their own official writings in order to get them to be open to reconsider their position and turn to Jesus for salvation.
Why have you attempted to understand the Roman Catholic Church β and why do you comment here? I have studied other religions for the same reason.
There are a great number of β7 Daysβ as we call them, in Barbados, many seem to compromise the gospel by the Law but they do not claim to be the only saved people as you claimed β you misrepresented them and their teachings β if you had understood their teaching better you would not have made this mistake.
Misrepresenting others does not assist in pointing them to Christ as their only hope of being saved β it gets their back up and they close their minds to the truth you are trying present.
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“but their official doctrine is not that they are the only βsavedβ people or that you have to become one of them in order to be saved.”
Good brother, you must have been absent the day they taught that they are gods religion. They say that its their mark that they observe the Sabbath, and that’s what separates them from the other false religions. Oh, the Sabbath is Saturday, not the false Sabbath invent by the religion that gave us the inquisition. the 7th dayers say that’s what makes them gods people.
Anyway, who cares what they believe? The Lord is my shepherd.
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I got what you say about them, but what they make out it is a bit more complex that you present so your reasoning becomes faulty about them and would hinder your communication with them.
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Hahahahahaha. Who cares about knowing religions? Well, my grandma used to say…..it takes all kinds. If learning about sick sad religions is your thing, have at it. Lord knows I waste a lot of time playing a stupid board game.
My communication with them is powerful. The Lords words don’t come back void. Its not me that communicates. Anyway, there are no Morons or Methodists or budhas or Marys. There are only the saved and the unsaved. And yes, I know exactly what it is to be unsaved.
Good sister Jes, not so fast bucko. You say Paul knew who was saved because they attended a meeting. No no no no. You don’t get off that easy. You claim no one can tell who is saved….that means people sitting in a room too. According to you, he shouldn’t know if they were really saved. At calvary services, there are more unsaved than saved. But they are there for a reason. I cant tell who actually has met Jesus til I talk with them. But im not worried about it. They are where the Lord is being held up and the Lord is working on them. Time to wear cool clothing is when a queen of heaven is held up.
Hey good brother Rob, since you know so much about religions, how come you don’t read these Mary worshipers the riot act? If you don’t, you are worthless. You smile and wave and then join in on condemning me, the only one in here who says “repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand”
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Bosco wrote βHey good brother Rob, since you know so much about religions, how come you donβt read these Mary worshipers the riot act? β¦ you β¦ join in on condemning me, the only one in here who says βrepent, for the kingdom of heaven is at handβ
The reason is that I generally try to present Christ and His truth in a positive manner rather than continuously picking over what I and you consider to be errors in Catholic teaching and practices.
I have experienced Catholic condemnation particularly when preaching the gift of eternal life through Jesus on the streets of Dublin, being picketed and treated unfairly by the βLegion of Maryβ. You continue to confront matters and often in a way that makes others feel offended which has changed nobodyβs views or practice.
However I DO NOT think (as you seem to) that there is no repentance or commitment to Jesus as Lord by others here. The Lord looks at the heart not what is seen and those who seek Him and love Him are not far from the Kingdom of Heaven.
If a personβs trust is solely in Jesus for their salvation (as many here claim) I do not think that practices that you and I consider to be in error will exclude them from it (salvation). That is where we differ.
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Theres always another way to salvation……the catholic way.
I have a rosary in one hand and a stack of blessing vouchers in the other….and you can own one or as many as you like. Yes, they are authorized and signed by his holiness. I purchased a lot of them at discount, and im passing on the discount to my good catholic, and protestant friends. For just $24.95 plus tax, you can own a blessing from god. Now , if you want to be assured of salvation, purchase 1000 of them and I will send you a guarantee certificate to entry into heaven, signed by his holinesses secretary.
Don’t purchase bogus vouchers from unauthorized sources. The Holy Father orderd a crackdown on them. He doesn’t want poachers muscling in on his racket.
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Heaven is indeed beyond our imagining. I haven’t ever really tried to imagine it. In fact I am becoming quite convinced that 99% of all theology is just a bunch of pointless musings that get us nowhere. My donkey RubΓ thinks otherwise and she sometimes writes about theology. http://equusasinus.net/culture-history/gods-big-donkey-plan/
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I agree with Rubi – takes a donk to get to the heart of the matter π xx
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XIX. Of the Church.
The visible Church of Christ is a congregation of faithful men, in which the pure Word of God is preached, and the Sacraments be duly ministered according to Christ’s ordinance, in all those things that of necessity are requisite to the same.
As the Church of Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Antioch, have erred, so also the Church of Rome hath erred, not only in their living and manner of Ceremonies, but also in matters of Faith.
This is 19th of the tenants of Anglicanism. The C of M says the Anglican church is in error. The 7th dayers say everyone is in error if they don’t observe the Sabbath(Saturday). Jehovas and Morons are gods one true church.
What are we to do? Either flip a coin or open the door to the good shepherd.
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i’m not one of god’s sheep which means i’m not saved…
i don’t know what jesus’s voice sounds like…
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Don’t feel bad.
The good news is….he stands at your door knocking. Open and he will come and sup with you.
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Bosco commented to Newenglandsun βDonβt feel bad. The good news isβ¦.he stands at your door knocking. Open and he will come and sup with youβ.
Bosco shows a gentle concern here a side we often miss and his words are entirely true. Jesus is ever ready in deep love and compassion to enter into every life that opens no matter how hesitantly towards Him. He is ready to comfort and remove the pain and hurt that invades our minds and emotions and set us free the moment the door of our life cracks open to Him.
Unfortunately the troubles of particular histories of pain and psychological abuse or whatever can block the conscious experience of the comfort and love of the Saviour. Our own condition can restrict either the immediate consciousness of what Jesus has actually accomplished the moment we respond to him or our full release from our infirmed condition. The deeper the pain the more this can be so. The continual acceptance and love of Christ people reflecting the Saviour can be a means of healing.
Once I visited a recovery centre for alcohol and drug dependant young people who attended a meeting we hosted. The first young man I spoke to was deeply disturbed and told me his story of rejection by his family and complete despondency. He regularly cut his arms with a razor blades, drink and drugs were just a temporary escape mechanism not thee root problem.
I was way out my depth in any counselling I could give β but felt his pain. I suggested that we and him pray and take it all to Jesus and that he invite Jesus into his life. He and I did this. As I continued to pray for him a stillness came over him, he started breathing deeply became relaxed and peaceful. In a while his sensations subsided and he said I have never felt so wonderful in all my life.
However the point I want to make is that it was difficult as time went on for him to maintain that peace and confidence in Christ. He attended our church for some time and was sometimes up and other times despondent. That Christ had heard his prayer of commitment and responded to him I never doubted. Jesus had done a work and His works last an eternity.
When all seems lost and one feels lost, deserted and alone our task is to deny our feelings, doubt our doubts and believe Jesus when He says βI will never leave you or forsake youβ.
If having responded to Christ you still feel alone and unable to hear the Saviourβs voice. Doubt your feelings, doubt your doubts and believe Jesus words βI will never leave you or forsake you. You are in my hand and in my Fathers hand and nobody will be able to pluck you out of our hands.β John 10
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Bosco is a HERETICK!!!!
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We frequently might be quite sure we recognise another as a βsaved disciple of Christβ but nowhere in scripture does it guarantee that we will always get it right. In fact scripture seems to indicate that not even the NT evangelist and apostles were always accurate in their assessment. E.g. –
Simon believed was baptised and continued to associate with Philip along with other disciples indicating they assumed he was βsavedβ. However it took Peter to eventually discern that Simonβs heart was not right with God and that he had no part with the fellowship of disciples.
But Bosco is sure that he is the only βsavedβ person in this place and none us have been able to get him consider that he might be mistaken.
Iβm sure we will keep trying.
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You are so helpful Rob – you put it perfectly so that I can really understand; not surprising I suppose given your mission – but so good to be on the receiving end of it π xx
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Thanks for the encouragement xx.
As I said Iβm currently in Tenerife for 4 months and we are intending to find a place and spend part of each year here in future for a while at least. Shortly before arriving we discovered that our doctor (for the last 40 years) is now spending time each year here and lives 3 minutesβ walk from where we are staying.
He has invited us out several times and we are spending Christmas day together. His wife is a believer but hurt by her church and no longer attending and he is an atheist. Since being here I have had several conversations with him about our faith and he has asked further questions revealing misconceptions that we have been able to deconstruct.
Please pray for this couple as we get to know them and spend more time with them and for Mary and I as we endeavour to learn Spanish.
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I shall pray for you Rob π xx
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Im glad you mentioned good brother Simon. He really wanted to be saved, but, as you said, his heart wasn’t right. He wanted to do miracles that he saw the others doing. Are you aware Simon went to Rome and started his own religion, with him as chief? He used sorcery and other Babylonian pagan rituals. That church is still with us and still headquarterd in Rome.
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I’be heard some people think that – but would be interested in some sources for it. Seems a bit unlikely given that we know via Paul that there was a Christian community in Rome. Don’t you love the Letter to the Romans? π xx
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It was some of these early catholic writers that noted Simons activities. I forgot the exact names. I think Ciprian was one. But does it matter. ? The C of M is loaded with Babylonian rituals and idols. We don’t need a history lesson to see that. Just look at the popes pinecone staff.
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No, Cyrian doesn’t say that Simon Magus founded the Catholic Church. Yes, it matters, because we shouldn’t tell untruths should we?
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