My understanding of the answer to this question in a Christian context is ‘hell-fire’. You can take whatever understanding your tradition gives you of original sin and theorise, but I don’t think you can take your own life and get away from the conclusion that you have not followed God’s ways. I may be preaching here to a bunch of folks who are outraged by such a suggestion, and who have so conducted themselves that they ‘deserve’ salvation. But were that the case Paul need not have written Romans, and, indeed, Christ need not have hung on that Cross. You can take whatever theory of the atonement your tradition offers you, but I don’t see you can escape having to have some theory, and that theory has to encompass the idea, outrageous to the unsaved, that Christ suffered and died for us – yes, for me, and for you, and he did that without having any assurance that I would accept the sacrifice. As I said to Dave Smith the other day, every time my mind goes to this place, it is humbled in amazement.
God made us in his image, to love him and to be with him for eternity. Whatever view your tradition allows you on the question of an actual Adam and Eve (for the record, I am a fundie here), our own miserable record in loving and following his way has excommunicated us from Eden quite as effectively as anything they did. Of course, for many orthodox Christians, the one follows the other, but even for those with a more theoretical approach, I say that nothing you did, or can do, can get you to Heaven – nothing. You can say you follow the whole of the Law, you can say that you are a truly good person, you can give everything you have to feed the poor, but none of this will win you salvation. Salvation comes via the blood of the Lamb, the sacrifice made once and for all – for all.
Does that mean all can be saved? Yes, I think it must mean that, since it is possible that all men will realise they are loved by God and will embrace him and, as always happens when you embrace him, repent and turn away from your old life of sin. But men are a stiff-necked bunch of sinners, and they have always shown themselves capable to an arrogance here which beggars belief; they will not, and they do not, acknowledge Him as Lord. If they do not, then it is that act of the will and not anything God does which consigns them to hell.
I can see why the Catholic Church wants Purgatory to be there. If you believe that only those pure and sinless can be in Heaven with God, and if you do not believe that all sins are washed away once and for all by the blood of the Lamb, then you need some sort of sponging-house where you can be cleaned up. But the good news we have is that we are covered by the Blood of the Lamb. Though our sins are scarlet, yet shall we be pure as light when we come before Him. Really? Can that be true? Surely we need to do this, or that, or the other first? No. You need to embrace him in your heart by faith with thanksgiving. and all else follows. Yes, that is God’s mercy, that is what Jesus offers us – not a course in Canon Law, not Masses for the dead, not time in or off Purgatory – he offers us free Grace. Free from him, but we have to bear our cross in this life, but we have assurance at the end.
I can see why clerical organisations might cavil at this – but there we go, it is so.
All Along the Watchtower 
The Catechism says this on the subject: 1030
All who die in God’s grace, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
You say, “You can take whatever understanding your tradition gives you of original sin and theorise.”
I think actually this is perhaps the root of the different understandings. As St. Augustine, who really developed the concept of Original Sin, describes in Confessions by telling the story of himself and a pear tree when he was a small boy. How he simply out of the want of sin stole pears, not because he needed them or enjoyed their sweet taste. He loved the thrill of the sin.
By the story, St. Augustine is describing the nature of the flesh that through Concupiscence desires its sinful nature.
If we are to believe St. Augustine’s theory, purgatory would seem to be common sense as :
But nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]” Rev. 21:27.
“Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.” Matthew 5:25-26
Among others.
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As ever, you make excellent points. I think it is eisegesis to make that last one refer to the afterlife. The Orthodox, who do not believe in Purgatory either, think, as do I, that once you are dead, if you are a Christian, you find your sins wiped away by Christ’s blood. This is one of the relatively few areas where I fundamentally disagree with your Church. Either our sins are wiped away by the blood of the Lamb, or we need a good spring-clean when we’re dead. How we can be cleaned up when we are dead seems to be adding an unnecessary mystery. Christ did it!
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The catholic church is straight out of the pits of hell. It tells its devotees that the blood of Christ isn’t enough to wipe out sin. That the catholic devotee needs to suffer in some purgatory for some sins. Well the catholic devotees will suffer in fire, but they wont ever come out, no matter how much money their family and friends drop inthe coffers.
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I believe most Christians believe we are washed cleaned in the Blood of the Lamb, Jesus Christ. But, as in confession or baptism, fallen man there is another component to Perfecting the soul for Eternal Beatitude . . . or at least this is my understanding. It doesn’t take a human long from being bathed to soil their souls once again . . . thus it is not necessarily a done deal. We have, by experienced understood that contrition and true sorrow can be both perfect and imperfect; acquiescing to God’s Will for fear of the loss of heaven and the pains of hell or the perfect form, abandoning oneself to the will of God for love of Him Whom we love more than life itself. In other words, abandoning ourselves and our free will by that same free will to submit ourselves in all things to the Will of God . . . not just for a moment but for eternity. This is the unity, it seems of heaven . . . a love so profound that nothing can separate us from the love of God and His thoughts and desires are now ours as we have buried all thoughts contrary to His . . . for love of Him. Are we all ready instantly at death to make that commitment and abandon ourselves completely or does it require a period of time to contemplate the Goodnes of God and the foolishness of that which find good for ourselves and in our preferred selfish manner. Yes, sin is forgiven for both perfect and imperfect contrition and love of God . . . but it would seem that Heaven is for the perfection that are filled with perfect contrition and perfect love of God. How that happens and if this has a temporal aspect to it or is accomplished in the twinkling of an eye in God’s time or perpetual nowness is something we might understand once we are freed from our myopia caused by our temporal understanding of things.
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Interesting, as always, but as I have just said to PA, this seems entirely contrary to the message that we are saved by Faith. Is there going to be something we do in the afterlife which gets us ready for heaven? If so, what? Nowhere are we told that we shall have to undergo further purgation – either He saved us, or He didn’t; either we can do something to merit salvation, or we can’t. On this one, the Orthodox seem to me much more Scriptural than the RCC. it is, as I think you know, my major beef with your Church.
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In the first place we are saved by faith which is one of the graces that God gives us . . . not simply faith ‘alone.’ Believing in Him and that He is God presumes a belief in His laws and the need for love of self, neighbor but foremost love of God. All of this, when delivered to the assenting soul, is Pure Grace from God. Some of us must work on love, some on the law, some on our areas of disbelief but am I to sit in heaven in the same condition that I died? I cannot believe that something of the imperfections of my love of God, neighbor and self or my desires that oppose the laws of God will not be expunged. That is the interior workings of the salvific bathing of the Christian in the Blood of Christ. Does it take a lifetime or more than that? If the job is not complete . . . is it a matter of instant reprogramming of mind and heart like we see in science fiction films . . . or is it a process that helps us to finally rid ourselves of every impediment to Eternal Happiness? I believe that God works through processes as He has done here before our eyes. As I say . . . time is what we use as our hangup to this. But after death . . . what does time really mean . . . or is it a process that time cannot describe? All I know is that Perfection lies in Heaven . . . as the will of the heavenly hosts is the same as the Will of God. Our Eternal Joy will be as great as our capacity to experience Love and Joy. But our old selves will not detract us any longer and our blessedness will be complete.
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I really think this is over complicating something so awesome that we feel it can’t be true. I can believe that the blood of the Lamb is so effectual that when I die in faith I am cleansed at once – if not, why not? If not, how could Jesus have told a life-long thief rightly crucified that he would be in Paradise that very day? Is the Lord we love one who says to one man, ‘you are lucky, you were crucified with me, so I give you a free pass’ and to another ‘you have done your best your whole life, but time in Purgatory is due, so see you soon’? What is the Biblical warrant? One obscure verse in Corinthians which no one except the RCC thinks means Purgatory? That’s a mighty thin thread to carry a theory which effectively says God cannot cleanse us at our death? My God is omnipotent, and he can do just that through the efficacious blood of Christ. Your God is likewise, because he is the same one – yes, it is immense, but the sacrifice has been made – once and for all. If we accept it, we are covered – that’s the Good News!!
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I would contend that there are more than a single verse in scripture that alludes to our belief in purgatory.
Numbers 20:12 – Moses and Aaron, though forgiven, are still punished
2 Samuel 12:13-14 – David, though forgiven, is still punished
1 John 5:17 – There is sin that is not deadly
Revelation 21:27 – Nothing unclean shall enter heaven
Hebrews 12:23 – All in heaven have been made perfect
Matthew 12:36 – On judgment day men will account for every careless word they uttered
Matthew 18:23-35 – In the kingdom of heaven you will remain in prison until your debt is paid
1 Corinthians 3:11-15 – Fire will test each ones work. He will be saved but only as through fire
Luke 12:41-48 – There are different degrees of punishment after death
2 Maccabees 12:42-46 – He prayed for the dead that they might be freed from their sin
2 Timothy 1:16-18 – Paul prays for his dead friend
As I say, time seems to confound those of us temporal beings who think of these things. Did the good thief go to heaven or paradise and are both the same? Did the rich man finally get to heaven though he would not give up his fortune and give it to the poor? I don’t know the answers. Working out our salvation in fear in trembling is what we do here . . . and if the job is incomplete . . . then what? You may not be guilty enough to suffer eternal damnation but are you fit for the Kingdom in your present state? Seems that there is something lacking . . . perhaps a small sin that sullies one’s more perfect love of God? I would think that such an impediment is not simply covered but that the Blood of Christ lights a Living Flame of Love in the soul that once ignited will erradicate all of these imperfections and complete the work that we began on earth. So the Blood of Christ is still the cause of our salvation and indeed takes away our sins: the parting of ways is whether believes that it is instantaneous or if it is a process which once begun does not fail to accomplish its end.
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Of course, if what I and many believe, we are indeed clean when we enter Heaven – cleansed by the Blood of the Lamb. You have to read Purgatory into those verses before you can find it. Not one of them talks bout a dead person having to go through Purgatory to be fit for heaven. The Luke verses are a prime example – where does it talk about the person being dead? That’s what I mean by reading in into places where it doesn’t exist unless you do it. The same applies to the Matthean verses – where does it say the person is dead – nowhere! The Corinthians one is the sole one which could actually be read as you say, and it is a thin thread on which to deny the once for all efficacy of the great sacrifice at Calvary.
None of us are fit for heaven as we are now – but in the twinking of an eye, all shall be transformed – there is no fear in God’s perfect love – he’s not going to sentence us to time in an eternal spunging-house – why would He? If He was going to do that, why did Christ suffer and die? We could simply spend longer in Purgatory getting cleaned up. It sounds like an eternal penitential system, and far, far from the Grace which frees all who receive it. I don’t like this partial salvation, this partial grace, this partially effective sacrifice – it isn’t there in Scripture unless you put it there, and the Orthodox don’t believe it either. I think if only one church hangs on to this, I’m with that phrase about being secure in the judgement of the whole church. Now, if you think your church is the whole church, fine, but if the rest of us are all wrong, then we’re not church and we’re damned. Seems an odd sort of eternal felicity which allows folk in heaven to contemplate good souls who thought they were Christian in hell for ever for making the wrong choice. If, as you know your church says, others can go to heaven, then I think we have to posit the existence of a God who does not require us to do time in gaol once we’re through the cares of this mortal life.
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To you first sentence I have said nothing different: nothing enters heaven that is not pure and clean. Of course, should you enter heaven you will certainly be clean. You have to read every doctrine of the creed into scripture as well. It seems easier to me to not seek the deeper significance to passages that make us say . . . hmmm.
Why, in the twinkling of an eye are we transformed into perfection? Seems that if that were the case it would have happened immediately upon our conversion of heart and mind right here on earth . . . why wait and why not snatch these souls in their new transformed perfection from this earth immediately? Seems the kind thing to do.Who spoke of an ‘eternal sponging-house’ my friend? Nothing eternal about Purgatory. Why did Christ die for our sins . . . so that we could be happy with Him in Heaven for eternity, of course. How would one get to Purgatory without the Blood of the Lamb and having accepted this sacrifice of His for our Eternal Salvation? Longer or shorter times has no temporal equivalent . . . we speak in terms of temporal time because we have no other way to express a process of transformation which I already stated. As to partial salvation . . . how is Eternal Salvation partial by any stretch of the imagination? Those in purgatory are the future saints of Heaven who are being perfected in their love of God and doing penance for sins that were never properly grieved over . . . as in an imperfect contrition. I can no more speak to the salvation of those wishin the RCC as I can for those without . . . that is what the personal judgment involves and the Just Judge to decide. Anything other than that is presumption on my part . . . or conversely despair . . . both of which are sinful in themselves. Doing time . . . as you say is not an apt description as it is described as a place where there is joy as they are being perfected in love and their salvation is assured: and, yes, it is the Blood of the Lamb that allowed this good fortune. You seem to think that the painful weaning of self for Christ is only suffering which defies the suffering saints over the ages who also experienced a greater joy that more than assuaged the suffering. Most would gladly suffer far more for the love of God and rejoice for each and every soul that comes to Christ and will also some day be reunited with all the saints in heaven and enjoy the Beatific Vision.
It seems quite normal (and many Catholics have a shallow understanding of Purgatory) to think of Purgatory as a some brutal jailhouse instead of the dying to self whilst awakening to a new transformed being in Christ: the process is both painful and joyful.
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Sorry for the delay in responding my friend – but it has been a busy time – Mrs S’s check up – all is well, so we’re very happy 🙂
In the end, for me, it boils down to what we think the sacrifice on Calvary did. I think it cleansed us from our sins. I agree that in this life we continue to sin, but we also have the free will needed to grow in God with His help. I don’t see that we need a process when we are dead, otherwise what is life for? The most blessed would be the child baptised who died just after, as there would be nothing from which to be purged. I cannot help but think that if Purgatory existed, we should have been told much more clearly in Scripture. Once we have died and been judged, of course God can cleanse us in the twinkling of an eye – we are transformed, Paul tells us so.
I do not think that suffering is something which is good for us, were that so, God would have made us like it. We suffer much in this life, and the thought that after death we are not united with the Lord until we have been purged, invites the question of why Christ’s blood is not efficacious for that at once upon Judgment?
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Glad to hear about Mrs. S, Geoffrey and I hope she continues to improve.
Suffering has no value in and of itself my friend . . . only in its Joyful participation in the suffereings of Christ. It unites us to him in the same joy that He had in the cleansing of souls by carrying the infinite burden of mankind’s sin against God. He became sin so that we might become free of the impossibility of such a task.
How we participate in His Redemptive Act is an important gift due to His selflessness and desire that we adopt His own Mercy and desire to suffer for the Love of God and one another. This allows us to participate in our own small way with His vicotory over sin and death. That is the generosity He has endowed us with and the dignity, beyond expression, which he bestowed on those who love him. And by our participation in His Salvific Plan, Christ transforms us which allows us the dignity to be active participants in His Mystical Body of which He is the head. Lack of participation on our part is common . . . but how else are we to explain Paul’s words in Colossians? “I am now rejoicing in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am completing what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church.”
It seems clear that Paul sees his suffering as gain and finds joy in being entrusted by God to suffer with Him.
I know not how to best explain purgatory to those who somehow think that, without dying to self (completely) and surrendering (completely) to Christ by abandoning our gift of freewill for His Holy Will that our transformation will be effected without any participation on our part.We either do the work necessary to transform ourselves in Christ during life . . . becoming Saints on earth . . . or we are given an opportunity to finish the work as in a remedial program . . . due to His Mercy. I find no satisfaction in not making some small token of effort to enter that which none of us deserves . . . and it bother me even more to envision a non-purgatorial supernatural realm which would seem to imply that my freewill (my self-will) has not been given freely but instead forcibly taken from me and replaced with His Will without any change of my own desire and will power. If that were the case then why would those who hear the call of Christ and believe in His Sacrifice on behalf or our sin instantly change our will into total agreement with His Will? Would we not then have finished all that each soul is charged to do . . . as its end and reason for living? Death and our own resurrection should then immediately follow for our job is done and nothing else required. But we both know that most of us struggle in life trying to bring ourselves more perfectly in line with the Heavenly model of perfection. To maintain Divine Order something needs be done that both makes the soul part of that Divine Order and if not completed here, how is it completed . . . obviously though mercy but more than that . . . we have the dignity to participate in that transformation.
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Thanks for your kind good wishes – it is good that she is no longer under the doctor any more; a blessing for which we all give thanks.
I agree with everything you say about this life and suffering. Where I can’t follow you is into this other life we’ve been told nothing about. We do what we can in this life, then comes the Judgement. I cannot think of any reason why at that point we are not either covered by the blood of Christ and forgiven and made perfect, or banished to the lake of fire.
In this life we are constantly buffeted by the effects of sin, which is why however much we try to conform ourselves to his will, we can’t do it in perfection. It is like being a ship sailing to port, but unable to get there because of high seas. Once the seas cease to rage, we can come to harbour.
I am afraid the whole Purgatory idea smacks of a manmade construct to explain something which can’t be explained except by utter faith in the redeeming blood of Christ. You are right to ask how can we come into the presence of Christ when, at our death, we are still not perfected. There seem to be two answers: Christ covers us with his blood; or we work it off in Purgatory. I see no need for the latter. You explain it well, my friend, and maybe at the last, I shall see you there and you are welcome to say ‘told you so’ 🙂
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Truly, that will be the proof of the pudding as they say for many of our disagreements. I suppose we need remain patient and be thankful for whatever God has in store for us. 🙂
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As you know, I have the greatest respect for your Church, and even more for you. This really is the one thing I just cannot get over, and I’m happy to leave it to the hereafter 🙂
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Aye, I only rest in the peace that men far wiser and blessed in holiness have wrestled with these same questions for millennia. So I can offer nothing more concrete than what has finally been received as a reasonable and demonstratable answer to that question which is now considered closed . . . so that they might turn their efforts toward other relevant questions. After all, theology is a study that reveals merely a shadow of the mysteries of God and this we ‘dig out’ in small pieces from the ‘economy’ of God by His revealed works. Each shines light on the other. There is bound to be disputes over such. 🙂
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You’re quite right, and we’ve given it a good airing 🙂
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Always grateful for something challenging to occupy my mind with. 🙂
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I am grateful to you for your patience and the informative you give. I like to think we offer a good example of how men of good will can discuss even the most contentious of topics without descending into bad manners 🙂
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Thank for the many compliments Geoffrey which are undeserved. You have been a good friend and foe in these battles of wit and I appreciate and respect you all the more for it. 🙂
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I’m always happiest with a worthy opponent. I hope that folk who read our exchanges will see that you can disagree profoundly on some very important issues without ever playing the man rather than the ball. You’re very good on getting your faith’s teaching out there – they should be using you more effectively.
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In this PC era Church there are fewer and fewer places to be utilized with the approval of a pastor or bishop. 🙂
My time is done, I’m afraid, until internal changes makes the Old Tyme Religion popular again. 🙂
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It is, literally, their loss, and a great shame.
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I thank you for that . . . I will take your sentiments to my hermitage along with a pot of coffee and silently wait for the storm to subside.
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Sounds good to me – I’m off for a short fell-walk before the light quite vanishes – see you in about an hour or so 🙂
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Enjoy, my friend . . . as we know, the night is coming far too soon.
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Good brother Jeff, you have a great respect for that church of Satan? And you call yourself saved? Then you wonder why I doubt your salvation? Good news is…..even Satan worshiper catholics and you can be saved….just call on the Lord and ask him to show himself to you.
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When you learn how to read, do come back.
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I read what you said….Bravo…everything was true. But then you respect a religion that says the Blood of the Lamb isn’t good enough. That is the height of blasphemy.
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No, I respect the people who are part of it who believe sincerely that it is the way to Christ.
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The answer to the question in the title is a simple one liner: we deserve to be crucified and then cast into the lake of fire.
The follow up question: ‘so this isn’t going to happen to us who believe that Jesus died for our sins and that in his resurrection we see our forgiveness. What are we going to do about it?’
Well, when Paul was preaching the gospel and spreading the Word, he wasn’t thinking to himself ‘if I go to Jerusalem and get done in, then this will knock several centuries off my time in purgatory’. He wasn’t doing it in order to make himself right with God; he was doing it because he was already right with God; his mission was to explain the gospel to people to bring them into the same faith that he had – and he interceded with God to turn around wicked people whose hearts were against God.
When Moses interceded on behalf of the Israelites, he didn’t look like a man worried about his own salvation. He interceded on behalf of the Israelites, asking God to forgive them in the matter of the golden calf. While his ultimate salvation was not in question, God did not permit him to enter the Promised Land, basically because he had expressed solidarity with and identified himself with the sinful Israelites.
Jesus interceded on our behalf. He took our sins upon himself and, as a result, was crucified.
It seems to me that being secure about one’s own salvation is a necessary starting point for serving the Lord effectively, once one has come to faith. Effective service involves: (a) experiencing a level of abuse from those opposed to God and (b) in some sense expressing solidarity with sinners who are at enmity with God when you intercede on their behalf, which has consequences. It seems to me that assurance of one’s own salvation is a necessary starting point for such service.
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Well expressed Jock – that is much better than I put it. For me, either it was a one-for-all sacrifice or it wasn’t.
I can see why folk stand amazed. Pastors will think ‘well, how do we persuade folk not to sin?” But Paul gives the answer in 1 Corinthians – if we are new life in him we will want not to sin; we will still sin, but we shall struggle against it, and at the last come into the inheritance we have been promised. I don’t see that as a sponging-house for a good while depending on how naughty I have been. But then I am a Baptist!
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When one is born again, one knows he is saved. Those who aren’t sure….guess what?
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You aren’t born again; you aren’t saved. You are deluded.
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Say good brother Jock, you look a little worn out in your new picture. You should try eating more fresh vegetables
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