Last week everyone’s favourite free-wheeling Pope said, to a Lutheran woman married to a Catholic man who said how hurt she was at not being able to take communion in each other’s churches:
“life is bigger than explanations and interpretations,” he suggested that individuals should not be obsessed with complex theological debate and decide according to their conscience.
“It is a question that each person must answer for themselves,” he said, suggesting that his own authority was below that of God’s in such personal matters.
“There is one baptism, one faith, one Lord, so talk to the Lord and move forward. I dare not, I cannot, say more,” he said.
What’s remarkable is that he stopped there. Perhaps he realised that saying any more would cause even more of a scandal than the indifferentism to which he’d already given voice? Who am I to judge?
He’s right that we. each of us, answers to our conscience. But I should have expected a Catholic bishop to have been emphasising the importance of that conscience being properly formed; perhaps he took that for granted? It did not sound as though he did.
I shall be corrected here I am sure if I err, but my understanding is that for Catholics, as for Orthodox, taking communion is a sign of full fellowship? It is for us Baptists. To say that those not in full fellowship cannot share at the table with us is not to be ‘nasty’ or ‘uncaring’ or whatever the latest word is which expresses modern man’s inexhaustible list of things which upsets the new, more sensitive man – it is a statement of fact. Modern man seems quite allergic to ‘facts’, which he seems to find offensive when they go against his opinion; quite why his opinion should count for anything is unclear, except for the fact that in a world where relativism rules, the one thing of which he can be certain is his own view – until he changes it.
Were I a Catholic, I should be profoundly concerned by another of the comments he is said to have made:
“What will the Lord ask us on that [Judgment] day? Did you go to Mass? Have you prepared a good catechesis?” …
While these things are important, the deeper questions will be “on the poor. Because poverty is the center of the Gospel. He, being rich, was made poor in order to enrich us with his poverty.”
Jesus didn’t consider it a privilege to be God, but instead “humbled himself unto death, death on a cross. It’s the choice of service,” Francis said.
It’s the choice we will be faced with when we meet Jesus face to face: “did you use your life for yourself or to serve? To defend yourself from others with walls, or to welcome with love? This will be the final decision of Jesus.”
This Jesus he mentions seems not to be the one who spoke about sheep and goats and who warned that few would be saved, and even wondered if there would be any faithful left when he returned. Jesus welcomed all with love, but there was this thing he asked of them – that they should repent of their sins. Would that, perhaps, have upset some of the poor sensitive souls to whom the Pope was speaking?
There is a reason that the great preachers often spoke of sin – it is sin which damns us to hell. Being reminded of our sin is unpleasant – it often makes us feel uneasy. Good, because that is the first step towards penitence. If we feel uneasy about something we have done or said, we should think on that a while – because that’s our conscience, that’s God’ voice telling us that we’re going wrong. That is also an invitation to get it right next time, to apologise – to repent.
I’ve no idea whether this Pope is a Catholic in the traditional sense. He’s one in the modern sense. Whether that’s enough, who can judge?
Dave Smith said:
Ah, the inscrutable mumblings of a consummate Jesuit: ‘who am I, to understand him?’
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
Absolutely – he’s just the Bishop of Rome after all!
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Dave Smith said:
Indeed so. Why should anyone understand him? Or more precisely, decided what he means yourself . . . in accordance to your own wishes.
He did get one thing right thought when he stated: “I wouldn’t ever dare to allow this, because it’s not my competence.”
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
Good that he realises there are limits!
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Bosco the great said:
Rome is the traditional seat of Satan. Vaticanus Hill is the site of diviners and withches. They even have a dragon as their symbol. Just as fortold in the bible.
Good luck with your religion.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
Poor boy – that rubbish was discredited many years ago. Do keep up. Thgere are real objections to the RCC – you have not yet hit on one reasonable one.
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Bosco the great said:
There is a crest with a dragon in it in the Vatican up on a wall for all to see. No matter how many names you call me, that dragon is still there.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
So? Let’s get this clear. You think the Vatican is scretly pagan. You think they keep this secret by having a crest of dragon where everyone can see it. Look up the word ‘secret’.
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Bosco the great said:
Secret? Where did you get that from? Its never been secret. Their holymen wear dagon priest costumes and their chief holds a pine cone staff of Bacchus. Its never been secret. It is ignored by the devotees. The Marys even have a word for their use of pagan symbols, but I keep forgetting what that word is.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
Do you ever stop to think? Are you really saying that men like Chalcedon here are really pagans?
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Bosco the great said:
There are two kinds of people….the saved and the unsaved.
You used to believe the same as I do. But you changed your mind. Look at the people in here who used to be protestant and then went religion shopping and wound up in the cult of the graven image. The bible says a double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
Yes, you and good brother Chalcedon and all other religion hoppers are unstable in all their ways.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
I used to have prejudices because, despite being saved, I am still imperfect. If you think you are without sin, you are, as St John makes clear, lying. Do you deny what St John says? If you don’t, then think again about your prejudices.
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Bosco the great said:
If one belongs to a cult that has its member bowing befor the works of their hands, that one is pagan.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck and looks like a duck…….its a duck.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
Agreed – so that makes you a prejudiced bigot – you sound like one, you act like one, you post like one – fair enough, and kudos for being prepared to admit it.
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Bosco the great said:
Hahahaha. I am chief amongst sinners.
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Grandpa Zeke said:
The problem with telling people to just follow their conscience is that often people mistake their God-given knowledge of right and wrong with their own craving to justify their sinful ways. I do it, you do it, we all do it. He is not preaching a gospel of salvation. What does he mean, “I cannot say more.” This is incredible for a someone who is entrusted to be the spiritual leader and teacher of the faithful. I can actually understand “Who am I to judge” but “I cannot say more” is incomprehensible to me. It is his role to say more.
Since his election, I have not paid much attention to what this pope says but I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. That door closed a month or two ago. Yesterday, when I saw this headline you are highlighting in your post Geoffrey, that door was locked. I await the election of the next pontiff who will have a lot of sweeping and scrubbing to do.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
All, alas, very true, Zeke
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Dave Smith said:
It seems to me Grandpa, that a lot of problems could be solved if the Jesuits would simply take a vow of silence. 🙂
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dfxc said:
“If we feel uneasy about something we have done or said, we should think on that a while – because that’s our conscience, that’s God’ voice telling us that we’re going wrong.”
You’re right. Too bad the Pope didn’t say something like that, about conscience and turning to God.
Oh, wait…
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
But then did you ever hear anyone saying they were doing x despite their conscience …?
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Bosco the great said:
Theres this one little thing that the Marys never ever bring up…..is that none of Jesus 7 churches are in Rome. Maybe some enterprising Mary will step up to the plate and twist scripture. They inevitably do.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
Do you really suppose there were only 7 house churches in the first century? Are you really that stupid?
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Bosco the great said:
I am stupid. But Jesus himself says he has 7 churches. You must be smart to know different.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
There are seven churches, it does not say they are the only ones in the world. We know from history and archaeology there was a house church in Rome in the first century. You do know that the Bible is not a complete history don’t you?
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Bosco the great said:
Christ is outside of time. He says there are 7 churches. Not 7 buildings. Don’t you know anything?
The bible is good enough for me. Too bad you think its out of date.
The saved believe the Words of god are Life.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
I know a good deal more than you. Revelation is a vision, not a history text book. There was a church in Rome in those days, as there was in Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria and many other places. The saved know how to read Scripture; the loud mouths pervert it to their own destruction – as Peter says in the Bible. Did you not read that bit?
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Bosco the great said:
I did read that if one adds to the words of that book, god will add the plagues of that book to that man. Get ready. They are heading your way.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
No one is adding to the words of that book. I am simply stating a fact. Are you one of those poor darlings in the US who can’t face facts? No a student at Mizzou are you?
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Bosco the great said:
You just added to that book and even called it just a vision. After the rapture, the book of Rev will read like the daily news.
You have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof.
I believe every word of the bible.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
No, if you read the book, it calls itself a vision. Have you actually read it? Where does it say it is a factual account of what is going to happen? Missed that bit – or did you just add to it? Watch out for those plagues.
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Bosco the great said:
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Put on you specticles…..it says “thing which MUST come hereafter”
And you always accuse me of not reading the bible. You sound just like a Mary. You don’t believe one gat danged word of the bible…Mr Saved.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
Do you think he was having a vision or that he was there witnessing it. He keeps talking as though he is having a vision. I have read the Bible prayerfully for more than sixty years, when you’ve done the same, you might also know more than you do now – unless you are the Pope in disguise?
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Bosco the great said:
John doesn’t say nothing about a vision or dream. He was taken befor the throne. He saw the events with his eyes. Its a free country…you don’t have to believe the bible. The angel said these things must be hereafter. You are not forced to believe it….Mr Saved. Id like to be a fly on the wall in what ever church you attend. What do you guys talk about?
Well, we cant do anything about the book of Rev ….believe it or not. Not believing it wont make it untrue and believing it wont make it true. All the rest of prophesy has come true, so why not believe the last little bit wont come to pass? Not believing the bible is symptomatic of deeper disbeliefs. I can testify that the saved have no such reservations. Even though saved can be pre or post trib people, that isn’t disbelief.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
If these things are hereafter, they are not now, so he saw them in a vision not at the time. In my church we use logic and our brains and give our mouths a rest.
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newenglandsun said:
Bosco, Jesus never said any of his churches was in California (DOH!!!!)!
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Bosco the great said:
You guys use your logic and brains eh? No wonder.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
Try it some time.
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phadde2 said:
Interesting, My wife is Lutheran and I’m Catholic. We were married in the Lutheran Church, which meant I was married outside of the Catholic Church and could receive communion until it was rectified. I began the process to rectify the situation by speaking to my local Priest and we did what the Church was called a Radical Sanation, more or less the Catholic Church recognized the marriage as valid. I could return to communion. However, I suppose I could have followed ‘my will’ and kept going to communion, but I knew this to be outside the teachings of the Church, still being Catholic I followed those teachings. Yet, what if I didn’t know the proper teachings? How could I properly follow my conscience if it wasn’t properly informed?
My wife had the same feelings as the above wife. She was saddened that we couldn’t participate in communion together. I sat in the Lutheran pew for a couple of years and finally told her I want to get our marriage recognized. I was unsure of her reaction, but at this point she was fairly supportive. She understood, I guess, that my faith wasn’t tied to Lutheran communion. If I were to become Lutheran I would have always been a fraud going through the motions. Now we attend both services every weekend.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
Sounds like you found a good way through – but as you say, that did depend on you being well-informed = and acting on it.
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phadde2 said:
I’ve read a couple of articles and saw the video of the Pope discussing the matter. It appears that the danger may be that simply “following your conscience” opens up moral relativism.
It appears, as some have suggested, that the Pope is using communion with the Lutherans in the guise of ecumenism as a method to go around the Bishop synods and be in favor of remarried Catholics without annulments to also partake in communion.
If true,… wow… I don’t know what to say.
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phadde2 said:
Let me clarify… a bit…I think what the Pope has said needs a bit more reflection and prayer. Perhaps what the Pope is inviting the woman to consider the differences of doctrine and why Lutherans aren’t Catholic; however, may be it’s entirely relative argument. Again, the Pope is not giving a straight talk, which is why people are skeptical of his intentions.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
In a climate of moral relativism it is a dangerous route to take.
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phadde2 said:
**couldn’t** receive communion
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famphillipsfrancis said:
I knew that thoughtless phrase, “Who am I to judge?” would return again and again to haunt us Catholics.The Pope has much to answer for.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
It was very thoughtless of him. We can all see what it meant in context, but it was bound to be used this way,
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Bosco the great said:
Religions.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
You have been asked what your objection to binding yourself to Christ (the meaning of the Christian religion) is. Silly of me to expect an answer from a clown.
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Bosco the great said:
Your article has my objections to religions.Witholding communion because they are enrolled in a different religion. You dupes believe communion can only be had from a costume. Communion is done when ever one eats, at home, walking down thestreet, in a mc donalds. As oft as ye do this, remember me.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
No, I don’t. What I do believe is that I can hold communion with a believer in Jesus.
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Bosco the great said:
You don’t belong to a religion. Why do you defend them?
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
A religion means that you bind yourself to someone or something. I bind myself to Christ – how about you?
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Bosco the great said:
he gave me a new spirit….like it or not. I don’t have a choice. You cant do it yourself. One cant get closer to god, no matter how much one whips himself. I wonder if good brother Bergoglio whips himself. Maybe not. There are certain sects of monks who hurt themselves to get closer to god. Jesuits love their comfort. What a scam that whole thing is. And people buy into it!!!! (;-D
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
When you have been in God for longer, you will calm down and see things you can’t now.
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Bosco the great said:
That’s true. I learn things now and then. I had to learn what I know now. I try to pass it on to others. But don’t count on me getting soft with these false religions that send my brothers and sisters to hell.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
If you really have the love of God in you, it will work in you as leaven on dough; if not, not. Time will tell.
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David B. Monier-Williams said:
St. Bisto, why do you bother to post. You have nothing new or relevant to say. You’ll not convert a single soul.
So what has to be true in your life that you behave this way to get the same results?
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Bosco the great said:
The Word of God will not come back void, but will accomplish what it was meant to do.
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