In a letter written on August 1870, Newman wrote:
if the Church is the work and ordinance of God, we must have a little faith in Him, and be assured that He will provide …
The letter was occasioned by the anxiety felt by himself, and many other Catholics, by the declaration of Papal Infallibility at the Vatican Council. Newman himself could not see the need for such a declaration. He thought it probable that some Papal pronouncements were infallible, and that when it came to dogma and faith, it must be the case, but he saw no need to hold a Council and no need to make the ‘hearts of the faithful’ sad with much discussion. He was perfectly well aware that there were many Catholics, among them his fellow convert, Henry Manning – the then Archbishop pf Westminster -who wanted a definition and a declaration as part of their fight-back against the spirit of the age. He was equally well aware that the whole notion made many Catholics uneasy. He feared, rightly, that there would be trouble, and that some Catholics would split from communion with Rome; he also thought, again correctly, that the effect of a definition would be deterimental for relations with other churches. But now that it had happened, Newman’s advice was that his fellow Catholics should trust in God.
That was not a cop-out. Few men thought more deeply about their faith than Newman. But his Patristic studies told him that there was nothing new in the politicking and the intrigues which surrounded the Council (for some reason I almost write ‘Synod’ then), and that it would be an act of naivete to assume that skilled ecclesiastical politicians would not succeed in getting the result they wanted. But his studies also told him something else, which is that it generally took a century for the results of any Council to become clear, and that when they did, what emerged from the smoke of battle was not what the manipulators thought they were getting. God really did ‘provide, and the results conformed with what was good for the Church, and not what the politicos thought would be good for it.
Thus, although he deplored the results of the Council, he regretted even more the way in which the ‘old Catholics’ went into schism over it. He thought it wrong to press for a definition of infallibility, but even more so not to accept the verdict of the Council Fathers. He suspected that there would, in practice, be very few infallible definitions (in which he was, of course, right), and that far from the declaration attaching infallibility to the slightest think the Pope said, it would, in practice, limit its area of operation – another correct prediction.
Newman had faith that the Catholic Church would be preserved from teaching doctrinal error. That was not the same as thinking that it could – or should – be preserved from looking like a bear pit, or giving scandal to the faithful by the way some of its prelates pursued their objectives: the Church was indefectible, not impeccable. None of that made it any easier for Newman, or other Catholics, to deal with the aftermath of the Council and the unrest it caused – but if one wanted a quiet life, being a Catholic in an age of change was not the way to go about it in the first place.
Dave Smith said:
“If I ought to write the truth, I am of the mind that I ought to flee all meetings of bishops, because I have never seen any happy or satisfactory outcome to any council, nor one that has deterred evils more than it has occasioned their acceptance and growth.”
St. Gregory Nazianzus
ep. 131 – AD 382
In the best-case scenario, that of a truly ecumenical in the traditional meaning of the term, i.e. actually representative of an undivided Christendom, the most that divine assistance can ensure for the Apostles’ successors is the absence of any possible error in the doctrinal definitions such assemblies venture to produce. But, short of this extreme case, any dosage of approximation, insufficiency, or simple superficiality are to be expected from even so sacrosanct an assembly.
Louis Boyer, Liturgical Piety, Notre Dame Press, 1955, 40.
Indeed there have been warnings by others as well as to what one might expect from synods or councils. As to papal infallibility, the unrealized outcome was to raise the papacy into a type of Papal Idolatry among many who saw every utterance and every gesture a movement of God speaking to the Church. It was not that way previously and we certainly should have loosed ourselves from that misreading in our times . . . but some do (though usually they pick and choose the bits that support their attempt at piety).
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chalcedon451 said:
The initiative for Infallibility came from the extreme conservatives who imagined they would always have a conservative Pope who would back their agenda. Fortunately the Holy Ghost ensured a different result.
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Dave Smith said:
I read, ‘conservative’ above as ‘orthodox,’ and agree that it may have been a bit too optimistic, judging from the reaction and still lingering problems that have ensued. I doubt anyone thought that infallibility was ever imagined to extend far beyond the definitions of doctrine though it has been used as such when it suits their purpose.
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chalcedon451 said:
Far from it, Manning and the Ultramontanes wanted a wide definition to shut out the liberals. They thought they’d got it, and many liberals left in despair; they were as wrong then as conservatives are now. The Holy Ghost guides the Church over time to where it should be – Newman reckoned it took about a century!
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Dave Smith said:
Well, I guess 1970 was the ‘golden age’ for our Pure understanding of Vatican I and that Vatican II closely approximated this purity of thought and ushered in a great enlightenment. By 2065 we should reap the benefits of VII and the ‘hard sayings’ will then be easy as pie. Don’t get me wrong . . . orthodox thought and difined teachings do take time to digest fully. Unorthodox thoughts are never quite tamped out and glow for ever. All of the earlier heresies are still around . . . and many of them embraced even within our prelates (can anyone say German Cardinals or Cardinal Danneels).
We used to make use of the nuclear option (excommunication) in dealing with the most egregious errors. If the stable is never gets cleaned out, it only continues getting deeper. Simply closing the door and not looking does not make it go away.
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chalcedon451 said:
Well, by the 1970s it was clear that the Ultramontanes had been wrong about infallibility, and those who had gone into schism looked pretty silly (as they tend to). We then had two sorts of over-reaction to Vatican II, both of which are still with us. I have no doubt that the extreme liberals have gone too far, and equally little doubt the same is true of some of the traditionalists; it is in our fallen nature that it should be so. Is this any different from what the Church has experienced before? I can’t see it is.
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Dave Smith said:
It has . . . but then there is not such a clamouring for unorthodoxy that we see now both within and without the governance of the Church. It is looking more democratic than ever; a ‘listening’ and ‘non-judgmental’ Church ready to ignore sin if, the conscience of the sinner is satisfied. It is a different understanding that does not even speak of information consciences within the documents. You must admit that this seems more than inadequate.
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chalcedon451 said:
There have been many parallels. The idea that the Church should run a State, that bishops and Cardinals should take on worldly roles and mistresses and enjoy what were in effect secular careers lasted for centuries, with those in possession of power being given annulments on demand. The reason Henry VIII was so furious was that had Charles V’s army not been in Rome, he would have had the annulment he wanted. In St Jerome’s time most bishops and the emperor were Arians. By such standards, we are not too bad.
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phadde2 said:
As I said before Dave, What I agree with Vatican II is the laity being able to participate within the mass; however, there are doctrinal issues that explicit with Catholicism. The Church must continue to teach the errors of sin, yet, the Church and the faithful must strike a balance not to turn our backs on those who do sin, sinners. We are all sinners in desperate need of God’s mercy, which is a message I can support, but I cannot support a change of what is be defined as sin.
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Dave Smith said:
Yes, in fact, what the Church has done in regards to the decree of nullity was, in itself a form of welcoming, mercy and love without giving up divine justice: the teachings of the Lord. I don’t know if you had a chance to see or read this article I linked to recently but this is what seems to be lacking in the conversation today regarding Divine Mercy and Divine Justice.
http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Item/4304/the_relationship_of_mercy_and_justice_according_to_st_thomas_aquinas.aspx
So not only the definition of sin but our practice on restitution must contain at the very least a desire to sin no more and deep remorse for the sin. Take that away and we have neither mercy or justice.
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chalcedon451 said:
Indeed – always mercy follows relentance.
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Dave Smith said:
Not parallels of what I am speaking of. A parallel of that sort would require Christ to ask the people who He was and then ratify it. Or for the Apostles to ask the people what they believed on various issues and then ratifying it. They taught the faith as written and understood and did not give a fig what the people wish it would teach. That is what is new today . . . even an unformed conscience is to be valued and, God forbid, that they should challenge their understandings.
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chalcedon451 said:
Each age has its own characteristic deformation. In a democratic age it is this one, in former ages it was authoritarianism.
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Dave Smith said:
It is always a form of authoritarianism it is only that the authorities are claiming their authority from the misinformed people and thereby gain their support.
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chalcedon451 said:
In the past they blasphemously claimed God gave their Kings authority – sin is always, even if its form changes.
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Dave Smith said:
At least the part about God giving Kings authority had scriptural reference. 🙂
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chalcedon451 said:
Indeed 😄
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