Respecting Chalcedon’s steering clear of the Catholic Synod until we actually hear what it is going to say, I want, nonetheless, to comment on one aspect of what is happening. I can recall the Second Vatican Council, and if you wanted any idea of what was occurring during it, you got a copy of the Catholic Herald or The Tablet, or even the Church Times and you’d get some news, and then, for those interested, you could read the documents when they were published. Now communication is instant, and the spectacle of Fr Rosica blocking twitter accounts which dissented from his ‘spin’ was both amusing and instructive: the former because it showed he had no idea how modern social media works; the second because it showed the impulse to clericalism still runs strong. If the fellow could ban people, he would – but in the modern world it isn’t so easy.
One thing striking me about all this is that fellows my age and a bit younger, simply fail to grasp the nature of the communications revolution that has hit us all. Back in Luther’s day the Church discovered it no longer had a monopoly over communications – Gutenberg’s invention made reading matter more easily available, and folk could print pamphlets and get their message out there whilst a conclave of Cardinals was taking its leisurely time in the old way of things. Likewise, those who are engaged in political intrigue can no longer do so under conditions of privacy which mean that it will only be years later that anyone will learn what they’ve been up to; things get out, and when they do, Twitter gives it a world-wide audience within moments. The idea of a press officer thinking he can stop this by blocking people is actually quite funny – but a bit sad, as it suggests the poor old chap hasn’t a clue – and as another poor old chap without much of a one, I sympathise – but then I’m not supposed to be running a media operation for a global church!
We can see how all of this explodes the ‘usual ways of doing things’ if we see what happened to Cardinal Kasper last year. He was quoted saying disobliging things about Africans by a reporter and denied doing so. Unfortunately for Kasper he’d been recorded. Still, the fellow didn’t apologise for telling lies – he’s a prince of the church and so criticised the journalist for recording him – and then wondered why many folk thought him a bit of a wide boy – that, of course, would have been on the basis of ample evidence. It’s clear that without the tape recorded Kasper would have simply kept on denying that he had said what he said (technically we call this lying, but perhaps for a Cardinal there is a Latin term which means he was telling a white lie with his fingers crossed?) – but he couldn’t. Equally, those who are trying to fix things can’t move without someone spotting them. Of course, some folk spot conspiracies where there are none, but that’s the price we pay for freedom – everyone has an opinion.
The Roman Catholic Church has always been big on authority and uneasy with it being questioned. For all his rambling ways, Pope Frank is no exception, he clearly doesn’t like being criticised, not least by his own side. Well, welcome to the modern world old chap, deference is dead, and all you’re going to get by trying to impose clericalism is criticism. Of course, he could always try sticking to what the Church has always taught – but that would upset Kasper and the Germans might take their money away. Quite what they are using their money for as the pews empty is another question.
My one piece of advice would be hand the thing over to the Africans, they believe in Jesus and in what the Church has always taught.
Indeed so, my friend. If there is a bright light for Catholics and Christians everywhere and a fruit that has emerged from this sham synod, it might be learning and reading the thoughts of men we didn’t know much about before this disaster. Men like Cardinal Sarah are gems to be loved and cherished in these times. For a sample of his thoughts, please read this: http://wdtprs.com/blog/2015/10/card-sara-we-find-ourselves-between-gender-ideology-and-isis-apocalyptic-beasts-demonic-origin/
And then there is the further exposure of Rosica, lest we forget, who has proved to be a heavy-handed sort of dictator which is showing to the world the worst possible face of the hierarchy; as if we do not remember his threat for a lawsuit, not so long ago, against the simple blogger in Canada that merely wrote the truth about Rosica. His idea of slander is those who repeat that which he has done and said and making it public. I wonder if he will sue the other Cardinals for slander who now oppose him at the synod. 🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
Reading today;’s repoerts looks like orthodoxy has struck back – these ‘progressives’ can’t get away with what they did back in Vatican II days – good thing too.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Let us hope not . . . though in the end it will be the Pope that writes the history of this synod.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Seems to me that the tide could be turning here – so many people are in favour of orthodoxy that it is going to be hard to fix this – and make the fix stick.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Therein lies one of the sneakiest and perverse probabilities that face us: divesting Rome of the law and placing it on the shoulders of Ecclessial Conferences or on the back of each bishop. This would effectively divide the Church as has the C of E wtih their connection with the American Episcopal church. What will the layman think that the Church teaches, then? I guess, whatever one wants to think. Don’t ask, don’t tell.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I don’t think they will end up by doing that – recent reports from Pell, or sources close to him, suggest that there is already a consensus – be interesting to see what it is.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I hear if it were to end today 2/3 of the Cardinals would side with Pell, Erdo, Sarah etc. But to quote the late Yogi Berra, “it ain’t over ’till it’s over.”
LikeLiked by 1 person
Someone else thinks that the Pope wants to decentralize the authority of the Magisterium: http://wdtprs.com/blog/2015/10/pope-francis-wants-a-transformation-of-the-papacy-and-a-synodal-church/
LikeLike
I would say I’m a moderate in the sense that I do not object to many of the changes that occurred during Vatican II, such as allowing the mass in native language and allowing more roles to the laity–Lay Eucharistic minister. My wife is Lutheran and I attend service with her which use to be forbidden prior to VII. We also attend Catholic Mass on Saturdays.
I know from reading comments the obvious support for Orthodoxy here and will not agree, but the consensus from a great many theologians is that VII ultimately did not change Church doctrine. However, as a VII moderate, I recognize with my Orthodox brethren that it’s a slippery slope, I stand with you in this accord. Many progressives in the Church want to change this “core” of the faith, this must be resisted.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Phadde2, I appreciate your comment and accept much of what you say, perhaps with a few caveats. I too, consider myself a moderate in that I accept most of the VII documents as long as they are read within a hermeneutic of continuity and not a hermeneutic of historical progressive development. Without getting into an in-depth discussion on some of the more difficult documents, let me say that there is still work to be done to conform some of what was in VII to this hermeneutic of continuity . . . or to be amended, interpreted or expunged. But I accept the council and have found a way to abide by the documents without abandoning the tradition of the Church.
Know, however, that the VII fathers did not want the Latin Mass to end . . . they thought that both the Latin and vernacular Masses would both be said in every parish. As far as lay Extraordinary Ministers you might like to read the following to perfect your understanding as to what the Church actually intends and see if you find many parishes following this teaching; it was the document that convinced both me and my wife to cease and desist from ’serving’ as extraordinary ministers: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cclergy/documents/rc_con_interdic_doc_15081997_en.html
In regards to visiting a Protestant prayer service, that is OK as long as the following is understood and abided by: http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=441348
And, yes indeed, the progressives have far exceeded the intent of the documents and the manner of saying the Novus Ordo Mass. What you see in your Mass and call the Novus Ordo is likely not what was intended. It is the Mass of Paul VI: and of all the things done to the Church, to date, this Mass, even when said the way it was intended, is probably the single most disastrous change which furthered this revolutionary movement that we are experiencing now and have faced for these past 50 years. Licit and valid though it is, it has shifted the focus on the priest and the people instead of the Crucified Christ. We have largely lost our center.
I would say that I would welcome all allies in this fight for our Faith who agree that modernism and progressivism need be resisted at all costs. So I’m proud to have you as a fellow soldier in the battle for the soul of the Church.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Yep, the difference between Wycliffe and Luther (and Tyndale) is Gutenberg-and the thirst for knowledge, the Chinese had Gutenberg’s press for 500 years at that point without result.
And the difference between V2 (or Lambeth, to be fair) and now is the internet, it’s comparable, perhaps even more important.
Nor is it only the churches, there’s a whole lot of politicians with their fingers in Dutch seawalls as well. It won’t end well for them either,I suspect and hope.
It becomes ever more obvious that the truth stands on it’s own. Sadly it also becomes obvious that a lot of people really can’t handle the truth. And will suppress it if they can.
Keeping them from accomplishing that is the most important secular mission of the age.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Yes, we must keep it in mind that there is a difference between a windbreaker and breaking wind.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Yep, we’d be wise to, otherwise we’ll find it stifling. 🙂
LikeLiked by 2 people
Indeed, windbreakers are of real benefit against an ill wind that is blowing but alas the other only serves to foul that wind even more. Stiffling indeed! 🙂
LikeLiked by 2 people
Yep! 🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
As Jack Nicolson put it – ‘The truth – you can’t handle the truth!’ Indeed so!
LikeLiked by 1 person
Pretty much so, i fear!
LikeLiked by 1 person
Took me a long time to realise that Nicolson was the villain – seemed to get it right to me!
LikeLiked by 1 person
Me too! but he was usually my sort of villian!
LikeLiked by 1 person
I rather hoped they’d lock up the repulsively preppy Cruise!
LikeLiked by 1 person
Agree, but I haven’t liked cruise since “Top Gun”, and that was more the F-14s
LikeLike
A few quotes from the Duke of Wellington that both seem appropriate, and have been hanging about my desktop lately:
“Educate people without religion and you make them but clever devils.”
“All the business of war, and indeed all the business of life, is to endeavor to find out what you don’t know by what you do; that’s what I called ‘guessing what was at the other side of the hill.'”
“Hard pounding, gentlemen. Let’s see who pounds the longest.”
“Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must.”
“Publish and be damned.”
– Replying to a blackmail threat.
And finally:
“I mistrust the judgement of every man in a case in which his own wishes are concerned.”
I’d say there is lots of hard won wisdom there, one could nearly say they are ‘iron’ laws of life! 🙂 And now I can close that tab!
And finally:
“Up, Guards, and at ’em.”
LikeLiked by 1 person
good quotations to live by!
LikeLiked by 1 person
I surely like them, been looking a week to find an appropriate spot for them! 🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
They’d be good mottos for the Cardinals on the right side of this.
LikeLiked by 1 person
They surely would. Especially, “Up guards and at ’em.” All about “taking pains”, isn’t it?
LikeLiked by 1 person
Or, that case, giving pain to the enemy!
LikeLiked by 1 person
Yep, I also like the one where somebody commented to him about how well the French cavalry came up. He replied that they went down well too. my sort of guy, the Duke was. 🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
The printing press derailed the devilish Roman Religions attempt to keep humanity away from the word of god. So what it does now is block the peoples way to salvation by tossing female worship in the way.
LikeLike
Not back on that one are you lad? No one worships Mary – though you bang on about her so much I’m beginning to think you have something to hide.
LikeLike
No one worships Mary.
Go back to sleep.
LikeLike
If you think repeating lies is what Jesus is telling you, you need to come off whatever it is you are on and grow up. Most children have more sense than you have. You discredit the anti-Catholic case by your lies – you are worse than useless.
LikeLike
I wont use the language my girlfriend uses, but she says you are full of it. Anyone who denies the Romans don’t worship Diana , oops, Mary, is chock full of it.
LikeLike
Anyone who lies has not the Spirit in him – you lie, you seem not to be able to help it. Get help – you need it.
LikeLike
Ill let you tell my girlfriend she a liar. Shes from New Jersey. She doesn’t even want to talk about it. She doesn’t care. But I can maybe get her to personally email you an answer because it wont be allowed on this blog. Say, that gives me an idea. I can post her exact response to you idolaters from her on my journalistic site. Ill talk to her a little later and post it and then ill give you the link.
LikeLike
If you are telling me she was properly catechised, she must the one person in the world her age who was – grow up lad, repeating her misunderstandings simply makes you both look idiots. You take the word of one ex-Catholic against that of all the Catholics here? Really? You can’t be that stupid. Oh, yes, it seems you are.
LikeLike
You idolaters worship the King of heaven…..why not worship the Queen of heaven.?
Oh, we don’t worship her….we just like her a lot.
My girlfriend says youre liars. She was born and raise catholic.
LikeLike
Yeah, and she was such a good one she left – she’s just another know nothing ex Cathol with issues – you get your info from tainted sources – try reading books – you may not be any wiser, but you’ll be less ill-informed.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Heh heh heh. Im have to get off the comp in a few, so it will be tomorrow when you get to read my grirlfriends response to you.
LikeLike
Yeah, well get her to tell us how many classes of Catholic education she went to and which priest told her to worship Mary – or her testimony is as useless as yours is.
LikeLike
Oh, I am sure your girlfriend was quite the theological wonder and taught by the best of the best. If she is your age or younger, she was raised in a time of great turbulence after VII . . . great confusion and no approved catechism to adhere to. So take it from her . . . and if she is like most post VII Catholics who ‘learned’ their faith in such times, they took little of Catholicism home with them. I could probably find a dozen people at best in a parish of over 400 families that might be able to make a defense of their faith. Most are Catholic in Name Only, or Cultural Catholics. So odds are, you are taking advice from someone who knows as little about Catholicism as you do.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Heh heh heh. She went 12 yrs in catholic schools.
LikeLike
What years was she in catholic schools and how good of a student was she? Did she practice her faith and believe it? Did she even really know it? Send her over and let us ply her with questions concerning the faith and see if she has even a modicum of understanding.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I want the name of the priest who told her you lot worship Mary.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Aye, he is probably married now and a member of ACTA.
LikeLiked by 1 person
She wasin church every sunday. You don’t think new Jersey catholic schools don’t teach Catholicism?
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha
She knows all that garbage and still kinda believes some of it.
Hahahahahahahahahaha
I cant wait to put her respondeo to you on my responsive site
Hahahahahahahahahahahahah
LikeLike
Her respondeo already has unmasked her ignorance, Bosco, if she thinks that as a Catholic she worshipped Mary. She couldn’t get past 1st grade in a Catechism class that was offered before VII.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Remember, she has to tell us who taught her that she should worship Mary – if you think any New York school post Vatican 2 taught Catholicism, you are even less well-informed than even I had imagined, and I think you are next to an idiot.
LikeLike
And the points everyone makes here is those schools don’t teach Catholic teaching – as your gf shows! Sheesh, don’t you read anything anyone write? What a dolt!
LikeLiked by 1 person
Any one who leaves the CCin disqust wasn’t taught properly
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
LikeLike
I assume then that she will give us the name of the priest who taught her to worship Mary? No, really, she’s a blow hard like you then.
LikeLiked by 1 person
It was the nuns that reprimanded her for questioning Mary worship, you pea brain.
LikeLike
Must have been one of the Sophia Worshipping Nuns on a Bus that she was taught by. That is great endorsement for your girlfriend’s Catholic expertise.
LikeLike
Really – and you believe her? Sheesh, she’s leading you by the nose – you really are a fool.
LikeLike
I take great pride in introducing her to calvary chapel in our area. Not that calvary chapel is anything, its that the pastor is saved. Her demonic kids liked it and went on their own without us. Her biggest achievement in life is that her kids have never seen the inside of a Roman Catholic Maryworship Temple. They have no idea what the church of Mary is. When I tell them little snipets of what the Marys believe, they are in awe. They cant believe people are so stupid.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaa
LikeLike
So, let’s get this straight, dumbo. Many well-read Catholics here tell you they don’t worship Mary. They ask you to show any verified Catholics source to back your claim – and you come up with an ex-Cathol who happens to be your g/f – could. not. make. this stuff. up. 🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
Whats more accurate than words from someone born and raised in the church of Diana?
LikeLike
You merely repeat your fantasy that she is an ‘expert.’ You break wind here constantly and somehow think that somebody might be dumb enough to think it ‘an air of holiness.’ It isn’t.
Surprisingly, you know even less than your vapid mind thinks it is conveying.
LikeLike
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha. Expert. Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
I cant wait to publish her respondeo to you. It will be short and sweet because she doesn’t like dwelling on that painful part of her life. Ans shes not a very nice person on top of it all
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha
LikeLike
Why doesn’t that surprise me? Oh yes. She’s with you and agrees with your maniacal obsessions.
LikeLike
She discarded the CC at the tender age of 18 when she graduated from catholic Hi School. She never went to a service again. Dropped it like a hot potato. I guess you figure shes going to hell because of it.
LikeLike
The testimony of grown men who know what they are talking about and have evidence.
LikeLike
Well read catholics
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Come to my well read site and see these well read catholics at to feet of Diana statues.
cherrybombcoutour.blogspot.com
Come, and find rest for your soul. Sign in and become a member.
LikeLike
We receive enough of your flatulence here, thank you. But nice of you to invite us to get even more . . . not surprisingly, I can smell the sulphur from here.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha. You do have a sense of humor after all. Hahahahahahahahahahahaha
LikeLike
Always have Bosco. I let you entertain me from time to time don’t I? But a little goes a long way; so until another day . . . adios.
LikeLike
See ya later good brother. Thanks for the talk.
LikeLike
Last site I saw like that, they took the chap away for treatment.
LikeLike
My only despair is that I have to wait til tomorrow to get your reactions to my girlfriends respondeo to you.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
There are lots of testimonies of ex Marys all over the web. Im sure you’ve read some of them, and maybe even you personally know one or two of them. Its not a new story
LikeLike
Heard it all before. I guess ignorance is your excuse. It was idiots like you helped cause the violence in Northern Ireland.
LikeLike
I’d ask her the question that Bishop Sheen always asks lapsed Catholics. He never asked why did you leave rather, “What was your sin?” In other words, what specific teaching was it that led her to leave? Ask her?
LikeLiked by 3 people
Great!
LikeLike
Im going to do better than that. She agreed to deal you you guys. Im going to copy your insults to her and email them to her. She will respondeo to you and ill post them all in the raw on my site. Cut and paste. Im surprised she is even going to waste her time. I owe her one. She says im an idiot for spending time in these blogs.
LikeLike
Uh, the reason im going to put them in my blog is because of her foul mouth and hot temper.
LikeLike
cherrybombcoutour.blogspot.com
come one come all……please, no cutting in line. Step rite up and see the pretty little Marys in their natural habitat. No smoking and keep your hands inside the windows.
LikeLike
Bosco used to dominate whole comment threads on the Daily Telegraph blogs a few years ago with all this same drivel, which is why many of us came to the conclusion that the best policy was “Don’t Feed the Trolls.” DFTT for short.
Feeding the troll here does nobody any good. My approach is quite simple: if this blog’s comment threads are dominated by one self-centred mindless troll, I’ll go elsewhere. How many readers do you wish to lose? Thought-provoking articles like Geoffrey’s piece here are worthy of more intelligent discussion, but time after time the idiot troll reduces any content to his own low and illiterate egotistical needs. It just becomes about him, whatever the topic.
Why let it happen? DFTT. Just don’t.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Good advice.
LikeLike
Gareth, we all, or at least most of us have tried time after time to make C see the light. You have made the most headway with him with your comment a couple of weeks ago, when you said you were leaving because of Bosco. At that time C promised us all that he would at least put Bosco on moderation, but as with the Catholic Church, this blog is not a direct democracy. C made a comment a few days ago that the reason Bosco is allowed to stay is so all can see how stupid he really is.
Oh well, thanks for trying to help. Please don’t leave, we need your voice.
LikeLike
I try to stay on topic now a days, thank you very much.
LikeLike
Steve, the difficulty is that Bosco is on topic now – but he is also very tedious.
LikeLike
C – I am afraid he is, and for many it is getting beyond a joke. We all understand you are in a difficult position, and that as Jess never banned him, you feel under a contraint – but it is now a year since Jess stood down (so glad to hear she is doing well) and he’s still boring the pants off everyone. Gareth is right you know.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Geoffrey – yes, you, and Gareth and Steve, are correct. You rightly outline my main reason for not acting, but I am also against censorship. On the other hand, he has made the same points ad nauseam, and as we are now all at nauseam, I think it time to say something. I shall do so later today. C451
LikeLiked by 2 people
I, of course, share your reluctance, and its reason. And yet, Geoffrey, Gareth, and Steve do have a most valid point, which carries on from Bosco not making an original comment in the three years+ that I’ve been here. It’s thankfully not my decision to make but I find myself thinking more often that Jess doesn’t want us to let him kill the blog either. And in the last analysis free speech only applies to the government’s use of force, not to what is a private space such as AATW.
I will support whatever you decide, as you know, but I too think he is quickly wearing out his welcome, I haven’t seen a valid point from him in over a year.
Neo.
LikeLiked by 2 people
This, I think, is at the core of the problem. Bosco is simply boring, and there is no reason why people would come on line to be bored. I am putting up a post in a moment which outlines my proposed solution.
LikeLiked by 1 person
He is indeed, hasn’t ever had, in my experience, a new thought.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Even the old ones don’t count as ‘thoughts’! 🙂
LikeLike
So, whenever she respondeos, ill put in my responsive site and let you know. I told her not to pull any punches.
LikeLike
Bosco – enough is enough. The Pope says we do not worship Mary, your girl-friend says we do – if you really think that is an argument, then that takes us to the limit.
LikeLiked by 3 people