It is impossible to have feelings and for them not to be engaged on the part of members of this blog who are Catholics. As far as I am aware, there is only one ‘cradle Catholic’ here, David Monier-Williams, who celebrated his 84th birthday last week – and to whom many happy returns. I am struck by the fact that he, alone, of the Catholics here, seems to accept things as they come and refuses to get himself worked up by Synods – my guess would be that after 84 years as a Catholic he’s seen a good deal and learned to accept the rough with the smooth in a way you can if you’re born to something. As a lifelong Nonconformist, I refuse to get worked up by whatever this year’s fashionable cause of angst might be; I have seen it come, I have seen it go, and have lived long enough to see it come back and go again; there is nothing new under the sun. As long as there have been Christians there have been disputes about what needed to be believed, and Christians have turned on each other in a manner which suggests to outsiders that they are deaf to the Gospel command to love one another. As an acquaintance of mine at school once said: “Who would want to be loved by a pack of hounds who snarl at each other as easily as they breathe?” She had a point.
The other Catholics on this blog all came to the Church by a process during which they must have tested what they believe in a way that only those who feel the need to be elsewhere can – that is a serious process of discernment and to be respected. I have known a few such, and even though I have disagreed with their conclusion, I have respect for the manner and the scrupulosity by which they reached it.
I don’t know how much of the inwardness of a church converts can grasp on the journey. The ones I have known have approached their new church with the enthusiasm of a man who had found, at last, the pearl of great price, and several of them went there with what I thought we starry-eyed views of what they would find there. During the reigns of the previous two Popes, the Catholic Church was an obvious refuge for those of orthodox doctrinal positions and conservative views; indeed, it was during that period and perhaps for that reason that my own native anti-Catholic prejudices largely melted away. But I bore in mind the words of a very dear colleague – another cradle Catholic – “the real test will come, Geoffrey, when we get a ‘Spirit of Vatican II’ Pope – and we shall, we shall.” And we have, with rambling Pope Frank. And, as my old friend predicted, it has made many converts uneasy – they did not cross the Tiber through storms only to find on the other bank the issues they thought they had left behind; now they find it so, it is difficult – and one sympathises.
Our commentator, quiavideruntoculi writes amusing ditties in the style of Flanders and Swann and Tom Lehrer – and rather witty they are too; our old friend, Dave Smith, like others, worries that the modernists are packing the Synod to get the result they want – a view shared by some of our commentators; I worry for them if their fears are right. Our host, Chalcedon451, is adopting, if I read him aright, the old Oxford model of using history to comment on matters which too current and hot to comment on directly; that is the old Oxford Movement model and creates some distance between writer and subject, whilst still allowing useful things to be said. David Monier-Williams alone here is content to let things flow on.
They say when in doubt … don’t. It is hard, I think, to convert to what you thought to be the security of the rock and find yourself on a sandy beach after all. I hope and pray for my friends here that there is rock under the sand, and that, to use a phrase I know Jessica and Neo are fond of, that ‘all will be well, and all manner of things shall be well.’
I think, as a non-Catholic, you have gotten things mostly right as to where we are my old friend. I too think that things, in the end will be well, but not so sure I will live that long. It is sort of like hoping that one day the Chicago Cubs will win the World Series . . . we know that it probably will happen as long as the franchise continues. Sometimes we have good players and good coaches, sometimes we have good players and bad coaches, sometimes we have bad players and good coaches, sometimes we have bad players and bad coaches and today we seem to have mostly bad players and bad coaches. But someday, we hold out the hope that we will have both good players and good coaches and that things will be well in the world. 🙂
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Good analogy my friend – and I hope all will be well.
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In the end . . . most all of us believe it will. It is simply human nature to have some who are ‘certain’every season that we have a winning team even though the statistics and analysts say it is impossible. Others are indifferent to the game but will always have support the team regardless of performance though they are not happy with things the way they are. Then there are the critics of the management when they seem bent on destroying the franchise. So we have optimists, realists and pessimists. It is simply a matter of human nature. Go Cubbies!
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Geoffrey, so good to see you back and what a thoughtful and respectful post. A pleasure to read and think about.
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Thank you Grandpa -much appreciated.
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Well spotted Geoffrey, it is indeed the old Oxford method 🙂 Good post – and I join the others in thanking you for the tone which, as ever with you, is irenic.
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Geoffrey, thank you, what a delightful and insightful post. As far as I’m concerned, yes, it’ll all come out in the wash.
For my First Communion, I got a Cabrol (French publishing company) Daily Missal. It was small leather bound and gold edged in both Latin and English. It stood me in great stead till Vat II. “Rub all out!” and start over. It took me quite some time before I found what I needed, now at the Franciscan Casa de Paz y Bien. As I have aged and grown back into my Faith, which had disappeared for many years, I find myself more concerned with how I practice it than with the Princes in Rome. At 84, ones mortality comes to the fore more often than I’d anticipated. Silly things, like selling a big house and most of its contents and attachments and moving where… are far more important.
The Catholic Faith, has and will remain the way it always has, protected by The Holy Spirit.
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Thank you, David – and yes, age tends to lend a sense of perspective to some things – even if it is a shortened one!
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Well said, Geoffrey, our prayers are with our brothers and sisters, and their church as well. Like you, I’ve seen things come, and go, and come again, and almost all have passed again.
Jessica and I are indeed very fond of that couplet, which being written by Elliot in 1940 was not designed for the good times, but for the dark. I’d only add:
If you came this way,
Taking any route, starting from anywhere,
At any time or at any season,
It would always be the same: you would have to put off
Sense and notion. You are not here to verify,
Instruct yourself, or inform curiosity
Or carry report. You are here to kneel
Where prayer has been valid. And prayer is more
Than an order of words, the conscious occupation
Of the praying mind, or the sound of the voice praying. .
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And yes, indeed: GO CUBBIES!! 🙂
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Hope springs eternal in the human breast;
Man never Is, but always To be blest:
The soul, uneasy and confin’d from home,
Rests and expatiates in a life to come.
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Indeed so, my friend!
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As so often, Eliot got it right and said it best!
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I know of none better, at least!
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I have not looked in for a while, for reasons stated a few weeks ago, and I’ll make a comment since the thread is still as yet unclowned. It is a good post, Geoffrey, and it hits the nail on the head as far as I am concerned.
I converted to the Catholic Church in 1992, having been accidentally baptised into the Church of England as explained here once before. After the experience of a year in seminary in Rome, as a late vocation for the priesthood, I was deeply disillusioned, not by Catholic doctrine but by the dismal lack of pastoral care that I found all around me, and the nastiness of the gay subculture that infects the entire command centre of the Church.
It may be unique for a man in formation for the Catholic priesthood in Rome to go out of the seminary one Thursday evening, together with three others of his cohort as witnesses, and be received back into the Church of England by the Archbishop of Canterbury’s representative in Rome. That is what I did in September 2009, at an Anglican church just two hundred metres from the Spanish Steps.
Back in England, I quickly returned to my senses when I revisited all of the problems of the Church of England again, while staying in an Anglican monastery. I left it very quickly and returned to the Catholic Church post haste! The solution for the next five years seemed to be to bury myself in Catholic traditionalism, and that was a very good learning experience, but another trap for the soul (as recounted here earlier this year.)
I don’t know what the solution is, to be honest. The most obvious thing to say is, “Trust in Jesus and everything will be all right.” It still doesn’t leave me with an obvious choice of Christian community. I find the whole disaster of the present papacy and the plunge towards the lowest common ecclesial denominator in the Rome synod totally disgusting. I have stopped even reading about it. I say the Divine Office. I remember stages of my Christian journey that were inspiring. I go to Church, find little nourishment in the worship or the sacraments, and meet Jesus in a stable with my donkeys.
I am probably, effectively, unchurched now. It doesn’t worry me as much as the thought of it would have done five years ago. A sad but unavoidable reality: I tried to keep up with my obligations under the faith, but I never received the guidance I needed. The problem is a pastoral, not a doctrinal one.
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I can understand much of what you say Gareth as i befriended a late vocation priest (of happy memory) some years ago who found seminary infected and went on to live a celibate but fulfilled life as an Allen Organ salesman until he went to a vocational retreat led by Fr. Groeschel. He had a rather profound experience in Fr. Benedict’s presence and finished his studies for the priesthood. He finally was able to fulfill that which he felt Christ had wanted for him in a special program for older vocations to the priesthood. Sadly, he was not of good health and did not get to spend much time with us a priest of God . . . though once a priest, always a priest. Things got pretty fouled up but thanks be to God a few have found a way to live the Gospel and follow the teachings of the Church despite all the obstacles. I too feel (effectively) unchurched as there is nowhere nearby that I can regain that feeling which was graciously afforded me in two older mento priests (also of happy memory) and this late vocation priest who passed a number of years ago. Its sor of like living out the faith in the desert. I’m still thirsty but am not as angry as I was . . . just tired and determind to carry on. You get used to being thirsty after awhile.
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Yes, “living out faith in the desert”: I can identify with that. In fact it’s not too bad really, and I spent quite a long time earlier in my life wondering if I had a hermit vocation. Now I guess it has just arrived, but not quite in the way I once imagined it would be!
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“living out faith in the desert” – there’s the title of your book to write in your retirement. Really.
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Alas, Gareth, that is too common a story, and points to a real problem pastorally. My local church not only makes no effort at evangelisation, but discourages those of us who want to do something, by sneering at the idea. It seems a lonely road sometimes.
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Yes, they are brilliant – I have tweeted and that seems to have brought in many new admirers for him – well deserved.
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I didn’t know you did Twitter Geoffrey – I shan’t ask …
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Top secret – alias, of course 😇
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Of course – will let you know via usual channel 😉
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Geoffrey, yes, we on the sandy Rock salute you. You stated it rather well. Gareth, also hit the nail squarely when he stated: “I find the whole disaster of the present papacy and the plunge towards the lowest common ecclesial denominator in the Rome synod totally disgusting.”
For those of us (maybe 10% of mass goers) who are emotional and spiritually charged, we realize a duty to inform others who, for whatever reasons, have no idea what it going on. And since they don’t, they tend to think that we are simply out of our minds. Just as Churchill, Solzhenitsyn, and Wiesel have illustrated most people will not see the light until they see with their own eyes their next door neighbor taken in the middle of the night to places unknown.
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Salvation is between you and Christ. Its not between you and a room full of costumes.
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So, you live entirely alone do you, Bosco, you don’t know any other saved people and you don’t need or get any support from your fellow human beings? Don’t sound much of a life to me, but if you’re happy with it, I guess that’s all that matters.
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I know where my fellow pilgrims are. I check in every now and then. Thank you very much.
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As we all do, lad. No idea why you seem to imagine you’re the only fellow here who knows Jesus, but you’ll get over it.
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After a fat Pope a thin Pope, after a thin Pope a fat Pope as the Romans say. I’m comfortable with the idea that the Holy Spirit will prevent the Church as Church from teaching error as truth. Notwithstanding which individual pastors and congregations may err so truth requires to be defended but the outcome after the odd century or two is certain.
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Its true that there will not be an ‘official’ change in the defined teachings of the Church but we are already (simply by creating an air of disagreement and confusion) ‘effectively’ teaching error: denying the teachings of sacramental and sanctifying grace by even entertaining the ideas that those in adultery, practicing homosexual acts, or living in a state of mortal sin can be allowed to receive the Sacrament of Sacraments in a state of mortal sin. Separating practice from teaching is, in itself, a form of teaching error.
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In other words Dave is saying that our biggest sin nowadays is the acknowledging of any sin. The Catholic way back in the good ole days used to help sinners reform. Now it can’t, since there is no “go and sin no more.”
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The Church was de facto teaching error when it permitted simony on an industrial scale, allowed kings to appoint bishops and assigned the revenues of abbeys and parishes to 12 year olds. Nonetheless she was able to shed these malformations of the visible Church after some centuries. Now she has run into a different kind of malformation which in due course will be overcome and then be succeeded by another.
Insofar as the Church is a body of humans she will always be disfigured by sin and the effects of sin. Insofar as she is the mystical body of Christ she will be perfect, impeccable and infallible. Her magisterium will always be free from error, her sacraments will always be vehicles of grace and she will always be the abode of saints. The battles she endures in time may be fierce but she draws her strength from her true abode which is in eternity. There is never cause to despair about the Church.
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No disagreement at all in what you have said here and hope you don’t think, even for a moment, that I am in despair or ask others to enter into despair . . . which is mortal sin on its own. We must once again recognize, however, what is sin and confront it with all our strength; for as Pope Pius XII said, the greatest sin of the 20th century was a loss of the sense of sin, and this is even more pronounced in our own time.
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The Devil Made Me Do It
While the Holy Fathers synod is going on, he is conducting his own side show…….the apology road trip.
A new leaked letter from some cardinals, a practicing homo priest, political intrigue. Couple months ago it was for genocide in northern Italy and south America.
But all this is good news. Ive been told that the Devil attacks the true holy church of god, because he hates how good and holy it is. The more wicked the clergy is, the more it shows that it is gods true church.
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Yes, there’s a leaked letter; yes, there was a gay priest – indeed I bet there’s a few; yes, there is intrigue (you’ll recall John and Andrew asking about a special place in the kingdom of heaven); and yes, the devil attacks Christians. Is there some special point trying to make itself heard. lad? If you, help it out.
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The point is,…..the Devil made them do it. These were straight honest saintly men, sitting around in contemplative prayer, and the devil came along and made them have homosexual relation, commit fraud, backstab other clergy and molest little boys. All against their will.
It falls in line with how devotees to Rome can deny anything. Like the Dragon Crest sitting up big as day in the Vatican. Some enterprising devotee in here said that it wasn’t a dragon…..it was a furry little kitten.
Denial is mandatory amongst the devotees….they have to, because the alternative is to admit its the Dragon in Rev. But the current Holy Father threw a monkey wrench in the denials by apologizing for the Inquisition and the crusades. Just a few days ago, some devotee told me the CC killed no one…..that is the mean old state that did it. So why apologize for it? Because the Pope knows the Roman religion has blood on its hands.
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You confuse the humor of Flip Wilson with the teachings of the Catholic Church and you know it perfectly well. The Church attributes to satan only the ability to tempt men and he is very good at it; for he knows the predominent weakness of each soul and attacks where the soul is weakest. Nobody uses the devil as an excuse but we do rightly accuse the devil’s mischief. But a soul, alined and strengthened by God, can and should overcome even the wiles of the devil. Hope that helps you come to your senses.
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Does sin come from God or the devil Bosco? If the devil then yes, ultimately, the devil made them do it. Or does your theology inlcude God as the source of sin?
I don’t deny they lie etc (my post tomorrow is on that very subject).
I don’t think Pope Frankie apologised for anything.
Yes, technically that’s correct – the RCC never killed no one – mind you, it never asked the State not to – you might do better with that line 🙂
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The rulers were appointed by the Vatican and were nothing but rubber stamps. . Anyway, the priests did the torturing in those dungeons. Wake up.
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Lad, lad, there’s no point in making criticisms which are lies, it just undermines your case. Give me one reliable source that priests did the torturing. I’ve looked for years and found none. If you have reliable evidence, I’d be glad of it.
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Ill get back with you on that one. But does it matter? The period carvings have priests attending the burnings and tortures.
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If you are referring to the prints we often see from Foxe, then those were done by Protestants Bosco. Yes, priests attended to pray for the souls of those dying – would it have been better for them to have burned without a priest praying? Of course, we think it would have been better not burning them at all, as I think it would be better if your country didn’t kill people by judicial means, but countries have their law and thats that.
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Its official…youre a zonk. Poor fellow.
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Well, does sin come from God or the devil – you seemed to object when I said it came from the devil.
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I don’t think Pope Frankie apologised for anything.
Vatican City (AFP) – Pope Francis on Wednesday offered a surprise public apology from the Catholic Church for a series of scandals which have shaken the city of Rome and the Vatican, from gay sex to drug use.
http://news.yahoo.com/pope-apologises-recent-rome-vatican-scandals-093447573.html
You have to excuse my old friend good brother Jeff. He slips in and out of reality. Poor sod.
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Just don’t spend the entire day on the internet looking for stuff on the Pope – excuse my friend Bosco, he doesn’t have a life 🙂
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That’s rite. My life is over.
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Cheer up, you’re only a youngster!
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