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Christianity, controversy, Jesus, love, Mercy, sin
Chalcedon once told me that some of the best parts (as well as the worst parts) of this blog were the comments column, and this, from his friend, Cathy, caught my eye, not least against the backdrop of some of the reaction to the Pope’s visit to the USA. She wrote this comment:
To me the firm ground and foundation of our faith is sacrificial love; Love of God for us as revealed supremely on the cross, and given to us in such abundance that it overflows to those around us, and prevents us doing anything other than offering the same acceptance that the Lord gave us when we were yet sinners; serving those around us as Christ served his disciples. Love of God, love of neighbour; the same love.
When we despise our neighbours, when we think more of their sins than their virtues, when we revile them in any way, we do this to the Lord himself.
This particular idiot is happy to think everything else negotiable, as long as these two principles remain firm. This is not to negate the creeds; in my view these principles are the foundation of the creeds and all that they say, in the same way as they are the foundation of the Law and the Prophets.
http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/13-13.htm
Now that seems to my way of thinking to be one of the best statements of Christianity I’ve come across. She focuses in on loving God and our neighbours – the pillar and foundation of the law. She says nothing about Canon Law, narrow gates and lakes of fire. If she won’t mind my saying so (and if she does, I doff my cap in apology) she sounds a bit like the best bits of Pope Francis talking about the joy of the Gospel. Yes, we know the gate is narrow, but we’re not told that ticking boxes is the way to heaven. It seems to me sometimes we treat the road as though it is an obstacle course – when the main obstacle may well be our mind-set. It seems to me at times as though we’re frightened of mercy and of love and are more comfortable with fear of hell-fire and the need to keep to the narrow way. Yet, in doing that, if we end, as Cathy perhaps implies (and I’d say we do) by emphasising to our neighbours their sins, are we not disobeying the greatest of the commandments?
It irritates me beyond the bearing when folk respond that ‘real love’ consists in telling our neighbours they are transgressing; ‘tough love’ is too often simply an excuse for being unkind to folk. As regulars will know, I oppose abortion, but I don’t think that telling abortion providers they are ‘murderers’ or making youngsters who get abortions feel bad is a sensible way of proceeding. Has it actually worked? Is it not better to show the latter the love we have for them, despite their sin? As for the former, again, are we not just hardening their hearts further?
Again, I take the historic Christian line on divorce, but it is a fact of life on a scale unprecedented, and if Francis and co are looking at ways in which the yoke on their flocks can be lessened, why condemn them? If we really think God is going to send divorced people who remarry to hell, I can see why, but is that the God we see in Christ?
It seems to me Cathy makes an important point in her comment. We can’t change the world around us unilaterally, but we can change our behaviour. Is it the love of God or the need to be judgmental which moves us? I’m certainly prone to compound for the sins I commit by being hard on the sins of others, though, I hope, far less hard than once I was. The older I get, the more conscious I become of God’s mercy to me and how little I deserved it, and the more I feel that my faith commands me to help others, not in a way that satisfies my needs, but their needs. His goodness and mercy have followed me, is it not my job to help others know that joy? In so much of the comments in some Catholic quarters on the Pope I see little sign of the joy of the Gospel and a great fear that some law or other will be transgressed; but little recognition that such an attitude might, itself, transgress the need to love our neighbour. Jesus does not, after all, say love your neighbour as long as he’s behaving himself. If we see the image of God in others, let us remember they see it in us, and watch the witness we give.
Cathy’s words are worth pondering.
All Along the Watchtower 
Yes! I too was struck by Cathy’s comment, my instant thought was, “This is the church of Christ, and Him crucified”. If one keeps that (and what He taught us) I think one will not go too far off the rails. We love our neighbors, I think, by showing them a better way, not by telling them about every nit we manage to pick.
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As are your words worth pondering, my friend. And as I do so, the following comes to mind:
Few Catholics have judged the person but instead judged the sin. That is a constant teaching that the Church has been proclaiming for many years. Sin has consequences, sometimes unintentional, and repentance is necessary to receive the Mercy of God: our repentance is not necessarily the same for each type of sin or for each individual.
You seem to say that we should not speak badly about abortion as it does little to sway those who get them or supply them. Is it true that nobody has been saved from abortion by demonstrations at abortion clinics nor have any abortionists left their job because of the prayers of these demonstrators? The many stories easily found on the internet would show you how many people had their lives changed by these prayer lines.
We are only to speak of the ‘good bits’ and ignore the ‘bad bits’ of everyone, is not a maxim that was applied by Jesus or any of the apostles. It is not sound in the sense of the Gospels themselves. “Hitler was a good orator” or “Fidel Castro was a good lawyer” or “the prison guards at Auschwitz were very obedient to their superiors” does not tend to shine a light on the evil that was committed. Whether or not Jack the Ripper was a good surgeon does not negate the fact that it is an unmitigated horror to murder people and remove their organs. So should the only message of the Gospel be to these people, repent and believe’ for Christ has paid the price and you will be saved? And then what would they repent of if someone had not told them? Do you think we are only to boil down the Gospel to the two great commandments or are we to teach the entire Gospel to the world? Are we capable, by a conscience informed by the Gospel, to denounce sin and beg those who are in sin (in a collective way) to abandon such?
I know no one who goes and accuses their neighbor personally. They speak to the sin (universally) and if the shoe fits, then someone will take it personally; and thankfully so if it informs their conscience to seek reconciliation. If that is being unkind to folk then let them continue in sin and die without a clue as to what is right or wrong. Let us all stay in our bedrooms praying and never be seen by others for fear of offending those who are attached to their sins. And why should I believe that the Church cannot change the world around us unilaterally (figuratively speaking of course)? Certainly the Christian Faith once did just that and now is losing its grip on society. Why can’t it do this again; or have we lost the faith that Christ is the head and can accomplish what He will if we would but cooperate with Him?
Where is the lack of love by neighbor for supporting what the Church (whose head is Jesus Christ) has been teaching and continues to preach? If you dissent from what has been taught and practiced, fine and dandy, but you are not being obedient to the Church as you found it: you are merely wanting to manipulate it to fit your own set of circumstances and desires. Homosexual unions will be next or perhaps polygamous relationships . . . what is the difference. Love your neighbor has been turned into love your neighbor’s sin and this necessitates PC language lest we might insult someone or be arrested for hate speech. Right is right even if the whole world says its wrong and wrong is wrong even if the whole world says its right: what don’t we understand about preaching the gospel in season and out of season?
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There is, however, a difference between 1) trying to show someone that they are in error with regard to human life and dignity and 2) yelling “murderer!” at that person… which is the point I read as being made. I don’t see a call to ignore the errors of our neighbors but to at least genuinely begin from a position of charity. No one can hear the good news of forgiveness and salvation if they don’t first recognize that they stand in need and that they do not stand alone.
You raise the spectres of Hitler, Castro, and (though namelessly) men such as Höss or women such as Grese. Do you really mean to make out misguided healthcare workers, same-sex attracted persons in pursuit of legally binding unions, and others similarly blinded to be meaningfully equivalent to such people–and to Jack the Ripper?
And if you truly know no one who accuses persons, instead of or in addition to sins, then I’d like to know where this glorious bastion of humanity in which you dwell is located…
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Sorry, my response started a new thread below.
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Thank you, yes, you see what I am saying, and provide a better answer than I did 🙂
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I am to some extent pushing things a bit far – old school-master’s habit, I am afraid. But it has produced some interesting responses, not least this one from you.
Part of the problem is that in condemning the sin we are not always as careful as we should be to make sure we are not condemning the sinner. So, in abortion, happy to speak as badly as you like, but shouting ‘murderer’ at abortionists is too like targetting the sinner and not the sin. By all means pray, but there’s no need for abuse, and there is a lot of that goes on.
I doubt any sinner is unmindful of sin. Do you suppose that a concentration camp guard was so dead to sin that he did not realise that what he was doing was wrong? Or that, if told, he’d change and repent? It is more complicated than that, but in direct answer to your question, yes, I think that if they turn to Christ and repent, they will be redeemed; the civil law might well sentence them to whatever is appropriate to their crime, but God will not sentence them to time; that, is where I am not in accord with the teaching of your church on purgatory, as I do believe the blood of the Lamb washes us clean, though our sins be scarlet.
Maybe it is Yorkshire, but I do know a lot of folk who, in condemning the sin, sound a lot like they are condemning the sinner, and such folk not only don’t sound as though they love their neighbout, they sound like the hate them; maybe folks in your neck of the woods are nicer?
I don’t see anyone saying love your neighbour’s sin, just what Jesus said – love your neighbour – that’s hard enough, God knows, not least for me.
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A fine reply, my friend and happy you made your adjustments to the post . . . as we are a bit closer than one might think a first glance.
I speak from my own heinous crimes against God and man. And we cannot know what is in the heart of each sinner . . . though I know in my case my conscience was a mere prick and easily dismissed. But only when I came to fall in love with Christ did I shed holy, repentant tears of sadness and beg His forgiveness; having a conscience born that would keep me up at night in horror of my past deeds. Now do I want this to be the case of others? Absoutely not. Am I still, though forgiven by my priest in Confession, bothered by these sins to my last dying breath; yes. How would I have acted differently had I thought of these things or been taught these things in the bosom of the Church? I don’t know but I also know that I wish I had such a reminder and such a teacher for my conscience at the time. So, for me personally, call my sins by name and accuse me of them for then I might examine my actions before I take them and sink to such misery.
57 million persons killed under the guise of women’s healthcare is not some mere ordinary sin.The living hell, even with forgiveness and love, that these individuals , after their conversions, might dwell can be far more hurtful than the name calling or preaching on the sin itself.
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We’re not really apart at all. My sins are on my mind too, and I do think if you come to Christ then we shall repent, which is why I wonder how useful it is using our language to those who know not Christ?
On the holocaust of the innocents, I agree – but education is the key here.
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All the more reason to get out the word about what an abortion truly is: abortion is murder of an infant. Yes the abortionist is a murderer. I wish there were articles being read in our schools that would speak to that fact.
Perhaps if this were taught in school and in the churches more adamantly, most folks would not fall away from Christ in the first place or think that they did not fall away by having an abortion??? Just saying . . .
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And if it were, most kids would stop listening and never trouble their minds again. Unless they can come to feel in their hearts what we feel, they cannot get to the place where they will realise what we realise – that being so, calling those involved ‘murderers’ not only fails to move others, it puts up barriers against receiving the message. They are not going to be taught this in schools, it is not going to happen, and speaking to them in this way won’t work. I wish it were otherwise, but all it does is get it off our chest.
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Ah, but I speak of pre-emptive education before a sin is committed and you are still stuck worrying that we will offend the offenders. It is better to prevent these disasters before they happen by pressure and education than deal with the aftermath. We are, as a Church, pretty darn understanding about such a heinous crime that, civilly speaking, in this country if the child were out of the womb might be punishable by life imprisonment or the death sentence. Yet we forgive and rebuild these persons within the Chruch so they can begin a new life.
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Judging the sin is judging the person. The two cannot be separated.
As for me, when I have dealt with all of my own sins, then I can turn to those of the people around me. Not before.
Others who are more perfect than I am can of course carry on judging other people. Except of course, they can’t. Catch 22.
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Well, how can fix yourself if you do not know what is a sin? If the Church has no idea what sin is then what has the Church been doing all these years. It is not judging a person to declare that abortion is a serious sin and should be avoided at all coses as it is infanticide. You don’t need to be perfect or wait until you are, since that won’t happen in a lifetime. How do you examine your conscious is you do not know these things?
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I did not say anything about the church. Look again; I said ‘as for me’.
I will not declare any sin that I have NOT committed as more serious than any I have. That is a very dangerous path for anyone imperfect to follow.
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Also, how do you explain this:
1 Corinthians 6:1-2
6 When any of you has a grievance against another, do you dare to take it to court before the unrighteous, instead of taking it before the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases?
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Any single verse of Scripture can be taken to contradict something or other. Scripture is a whole, not a collection of bits. An edifice within which to live, not a pile of bricks to hurl at one another.
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Hello Cathy. It is this very contradictory nature of scripture that causes me to attempt the practice of Lectio Divina, where a slow reading of scripture is encouraged and even a meditative focus on single verses or passages. It is my feeling (I am not a scholar) that the Bible speaks to us in “small bites” as it were, where a verse r=or two or three brings healing today that might not speak in quite the same way to us next week. I only mention this here because I don’t think Dave means to be hurling bricks at you. Of course the very nature of a blog is not exactly meditative and comments can sound argumentative even when they are not, but it is possible to have a respectful discussion of those “small bites” and how the spirit speaks to us through them. Just a thought.
Hope you are well.
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Yes, Lectio Divina is the name on the door of the edifice of Scripture.
I did not mean to be disrespectful, but neither can I ‘explain’ any single verse of Scripture. Well, perhaps I could; I think it is not wise for me to attempt it.
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Nothing being hurled, Cathy. Read the whole chapter if you’d like. I put no boundaries on you and I do not tear down the edifice to hurl bricks. I asked you simple question and showed you what St. Paul had to say about something rather similar. It is St. Paul after all that later in the same chapter tells the people the types of sin that will keep them from heaven and also says that many of them were in those sins before they came to Christ. So are not to do the same?
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How does one recognize that they stand in need unless the Church or their peers tells them? Today the peers say abortion is legal and that it is not a sin. The Church teaches otherwise. Do you propose the Church quits teaching that abortion is infanticide (yes, actually a murder . . . oh, for shame that I utter the word). Again, it is a position that is written about not shouted at individuals . . . not anywhere where I’ve been. The protests at abortion mills is usually headed up by a priest or evangelical preacher who leads the crowd in prayer and/or a rosary. They also ask those entering that they would be happy to find a home for their baby should they not want to go forward with their abortion. I would ask where you live that you hear murderer shouted at these people individually. The only place I’ve heard such language was in the protest rallies against the war in Vietnam and the chants of the radical left against the police of this country.
“Do you really mean to make out misguided healthcare workers, same-sex attracted persons in pursuit of legally binding unions, and others similarly blinded to be meaningfully equivalent to such people–and to Jack the Ripper?” Yes, I do . . . misguided or not, killing a baby is not healthcare. As far as the SSM business, what do you think they want? They already have won legally binding unions for their misguided use of reason. They want the ‘sin’ portion of the homosexual act to be formally renounced by the Church and for the Church to recognize their homosexual acts as normal and natural.
Murder is the willful taking of another persons life without just cause. No matter what you say, all my examples were people who thought the same as today’s ‘misguided’ healthcare worders. I am sure that we could also say that all my examples were simply people who were ‘misguided’ by some belief they held as well. Murder is murder no matter how you try to sugarcoat it or drop the equivalence of its different forms. If it is more ‘merciful and loving’ to let the abortion happen without a peep and only show our love and mercy to the mother after the fact, then we live in alternate universes.
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In terms of ‘murderer’ one only has to peruse the internet to see that happening. I understand why, but it is not productive. The question of stopping young women going in is a vexed one. We would say we were helping, or trying to, but if it is perceived by them as threatening, then again, do we get it right?
The Church, yours and mine, is not going to recognise homosexual unions as marriages, or active homosexuality as anything but sinful. But, as I understand what’s being said by the Hun Bishops, it is “which is worse, promiscuous homosexuality or a stable homosexual union?” We might, and would, say both are bad, but given sin is sin, is not one worse than the other? That’s not approving of either, but it is recognising there is a scale of sin.
I also think that equating homosexuality with murder is precisely what makes homosexuals think we are bigots. They are not the same, just as paedophilia is not the same as homosexuality, and to equate them is to suggest to those involved in stable homosexual relationships that we are hysterics.
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If you are speaking of articles then the use of murderer is apt. If some people going into an abortion clinic perceived as threatening; what is more important the death of the baby or the feelings of the mother? Some are not threatened and some, by these actions, have gone to term and given their babies up for adoption or kept them. So yes, it is a success if you save even one innocent life.
On homosexuality: Is one sin worse than another? I would say if they are serious sins that merit the perpetrator hell for their actions it makes no difference: hell is hell . . . there are no degrees of hell that I am aware of . . . but there could be.
Homosexuality is as related to life issues as contraception is to life issues. Both are an attack on the family and render marriage a lifeless, sterile corporate gesture recognized only for civil reasons of insurance and benefits etc.
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This is where we probably shan’t agree. Telling a table homosexual couple that they are no better than murderers in our eyes simply makes us sound like hysterics. They know that murder is an evil thing, they do not know that what they are doing is the same, and by saying it is, we lose not only their attention, but that of a wider society which knows the difference.
On abortion, where I feel much more strongly, again, calling those participating in it murders does not, I think, achieve anything save our venting our feelings. It is atrocious, but we simply drive those engaged into it into a defensive and thus non-listening position by calling them murderers.
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That is not what anyone would tell a homosexual couple. I speak of relational matters to contraception: sterility; sex for self enjoyment only. It is related, not identical. We teach that such attractions are disordered as you know. We would advise such people to end the sexual acts not their friendships or love for one another.
On abortion, you speak from a particular point of view which I do not share. I think that peer pressure, family pressure, church pressure, articles, movies and every means should be used to help young people make good decisions and to recognize the spiral into misery before they actually are confronted with such an issue.
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I am all in favour of using family and church to educate people about what is and is not right, and I think it works. I think what does not work is crying ‘murderer; and equating it with homosexuality. We just come over as weirdos and easy to dismiss. We live in a society which used to be Christian and in which sex is now seen as recreational. Do we rightly understand how that change happened and why we have failed? If not, then we’re not going to get the right answer, we’re simply going to make our pain feel better – which is the sort of emotional self-indulgence this society promotes.
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The message of the Church and the family is no longer the same and even when it is the same, it is rarely employed. It is left to the fewer and fewer believers who hold all that the Church teaches to say something. They say as best they can personally; they are not experts nor are they in the loving relationship one has in a family. But it is all we now have. So would you silence this last voice as well and call it a step forward? For I am not sure without the help of faithful Christians we are going to reviatalize families and the Church and change the worldview on issues that involve deadly sin.
To your title: what I fear is my particular judgment and being asked by Our Lord what I did to stop the killing of the unborn and what I did to help resurrect the holy, nuclear family which raises kids under the banner of Christ and renews His Church in every generation. I welcome mercy and love for I will need all I can get.
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It is for the Holy Spirit to convict of sin.
One approach might be that I talk about my own sins, other people hear what I say, and the Holy Spirit then talks to their hearts. To me this leaves God as God.
An alternative approach would be my deciding that my sins are far less than those of other people, ignoring all my own failings and berating other people for what they have done. After all, it is very easy to be very stern indeed in relation to sins I have never committed, never dreamt of committing, and never been tempted by for a single moment. And every single time I berate those sins, I fall into hubris. Every time. I presume to judge those around me, I presume to read their hearts and to find them inferior to me, when only God is qualified to make any such judgment. This is me presuming to step into God’s place, and therefore equates to blasphemy.
We do not know other people’s lives; we cannot say what we would do if faced with the same challenges, and it really does not matter.
We are simply called to love, as we were first loved. This is both immensely simple and incredibly challenging. If we spend our whole lives trying to love others as Christ does, we will only make the smallest faltering steps towards achieving it. If we try to judge sins we will not even begin.
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The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin after we have developed a well-formed conscience through the teachings of the Church. What is all this talk about convicting people of sins? We are speaking of shining a light on what things are sinful to do. If you don’t have that information then you are poor indeed.
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No, the Holy Spirit does not have to wait until the church has developed our conscience. That is a rather bizarre idea.
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Then you claim the Church and the Apostles bizarre; for that is the whole reason for catechesis . . . to form us and inform us. Once formed the conscience is good guide. Do you feel a person who has not been formed in the Church has as good a conscience as one that has been formed in the Truths of the Church? I agree that we have been born with some modicum of conscience written already in our heart . . the natural law to be precise. We need instruction.
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The Church of Mary has Lucifer to guide them. Hail Lucifer.
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That comment is beneath you, Mr Great.
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I know personally two women who have had abortions, although I did not find out about them until some time afterwards. Years have passed; neither has forgotten.
The weight of this particular cross must be immensely heavy; I will not add to that weight in any way at all. To me this is an issue of poverty rather of wickedness, and I will not judge those in poverty.
I also know a couple who has adopted a child who would otherwise not have been born to its parents. Who saves one life saves the entire universe.
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Don’t worry about your friends if they are truly repentant of the abortions as they will join you in condemning the abominable practice. Poverty . . . yes if you are speaking of a poverty of learning and a poverty of faith. Poverty does not give people a pass on sinning . . . especially in the west. Move to Hawaii and your welfare check will amount to what a salary of $60K per year would provide. It is not a viable excuse. A poverty of education is usually part of it because many have been raised in broken homes and outside of any moral guidance. So we should do what we can to educate these people in the moral truths sos that they will not suffer the results of this crime. Prevention is far more important than treating the symptoms of a immoral choice.
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“How does one recognize that they stand in need unless the Church or their peers tells them?”
I don’t believe I said they shouldn’t be told; I only said that the telling should begin in charity.
“Do you propose the Church quits teaching that abortion is infanticide?”
No. How did you get that?
“I would ask where you live that you hear murderer shouted at these people individually.”
In no particular order: Alaska, Texas, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Boston. I live in New York now and, I grant you, I’ve not hear ‘murderer’ being shouted here but I have been witness (and target) of persons being called evil as opposed to their sins, which was the claim.
“As far as the SSM business… They want the ‘sin’ portion of the homosexual act to be formally renounced by the Church”
Who is this ‘they’? I’m aware of the heretical teachings spread by ‘New Ways Ministry’ but I’ve not actually met any people who experience same-sex attraction who are all that interested in the Catholic Church, let alone want to alter unchangeable doctrine. And, frankly, I’ve never understood why any would, since the Episcopal church down the road puts on such a lovely brunch.
“If it is more ‘merciful and loving’ to let the abortion happen without a peep…”
Again, I have no idea where you got the idea that this was at all what I, or the original post, was advocating.
It seems to me that the only real point of difference is that I’m not willing to call people ‘Psychopathic Nazi Serial Killers’ as readily as you are and that, even if I were, I don’t think calling them such things is particularly productive. If you really think it is productive and merciful and loving, then perhaps we do, as you suggest, live in alternate universes after all.
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And how many homilies have you heard on abortion or any other controversial issue since becoming Catholic. I have taught RCIA and had team members deny the teachings and had aspiring Catholics tell me that they spoke to the pastor and he gave them a green light to have a tubal ligations and other non-Catholic positions. At which point I toss my hands in the air and keep my mouth shut. At the next opportunity I withdraw from teaching under this pastor. I have many other such stories. So how, in addressing sins to a crowd where you know some may be guilty, but the majority are not, is this not done in charity. It is to prevent what is a horrid moral decision and for others a chance to have their conscience formed and make use of the confessional. This is merciful and loving and especially to those who know no better. Prevention is the key.
As to the psychopaths of this world, who are carried away by ideologies that are morally unsound, ridicule of the sins and the ideology is appropriate if it stops people from embracing such ideas later in life. So it is productive if people have a mind that is attuned to the sinfulness of radical departures from basic human rights. If you don’t understand the sanctity of life as you grow up, you are most certainly at risk of becoming a psychopath yourself. .
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“how many homilies have you heard on abortion or any other controversial issue since becoming Catholic?”
I’d say about six homilies in the last 8 months, though that number increases substantially if you include the parish announcements.
“I have taught RCIA and had team members deny the teachings”
That’s horrifying. What did you do about it?
“I toss my hands in the air and keep my mouth shut. At the next opportunity I withdraw from teaching”
Oh. Well, see, there we divide again on what is or isn’t productive. Your posts in this thread keep lamenting an imposed ‘silencing of faithful voices’ (which, for the record, no one has suggested) but then, when faced with a challenge, you imposed silence on yourself? How is that supposed to work out?
But thank you for reminding me, once again, to thank God for having delivered me into the care of a pastor who, it would seem, is a rare treasure of the Church.
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Once you have had the horror of a getting a priest that is his own church you will know the problem: there are many of them. You are stuck between having to condemn the teaching of the priest and going against his authority or remaining in silence. The only option is to quit or take the matter to the Bishop . . . and that route I have tried in the past and it is almost always a dead end.
So you have a priest who regularly preaches against abortion, contraception, SSM, fornication, masturbation and adultery. Is that right? I envy you for having such a a courageous priest in these times of crisis within the faith.He should be greatly praised and revered.
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More precisely, the pastor of my parish is a Bishop but, between him and the administrating Priest, yeah, they cover most of that ground. [I don’t think masturbation has come up during the homily while I’ve been there but the Priest has been downright disturbing on that point in an adult formation session… and, oddly enough, over coffee before a meeting of the stewardship committee. Which would almost make for a great joke/anecdote except that it really was not funny at all.]
Anyway, I hadn’t thought our clergy particularly courageous for simply, you know, teaching and preaching Catholicism. Nevertheless, I am thankful for them. I pray God keeps them well and that their example might become common.
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Amen to that, my friend We have perhaps 4 half dozen men of that caliber here but the rest are spread in a spectrum from good to failr, poor and unacceptable. I would be so pleased to have what you have at this point though my real wish is to be somewhere that has the old Latin Mass . . . but alas I would have to move as the closest is about 2 hours away.
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If my priest were to bang on about adultery, abortion, fornication, contraception and same sex marriage, and did not bang on equally about gluttony, greed, pride, hubris and arrogance I would regard his message as dangerously unbalanced, for the simple reason that those within the church are highly unlikely to fall into the former, and very likely indeed to fall into the latter.
A priest has to think of his congregation and what they are likely to get up to when on the wrong side of good, and preach about those sins. If he ignores the actual sins in favour of those not committed, or committed by ‘the others’, then he and his whole congregation are at risk of engaging in a massive exercise in smug sanctimony.
How is that for condemning sin?
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Ok, now I want to know where y’all are going to church so I can avoid it. Is the extremism really so rampant? All of these sins are interconnected and one doesn’t need to “bang on” about any of them to raise them and accurately convey the teachings about them.
Are “Fr. Kumbaya” and “Fr. Brimstone” really the only pastors working in most of the Church?
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Why thank you.
How kind.
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Sorry, I’m not sure what you mean. I realize tone is hard to convey over the internet but I wasn’t being snarky or trying to be rude, I was seriously asking the question. Dave was telling me that there are Priests who refuse to support the teachings at all, and your reply seemed to suggest that those who do will go too far the other way [though, of course, I may have misinterpreted your tone and intent]. I’ve not experienced either but then I’m new to the Church, so I’m genuinely curious if these extreme positions are the ‘mainstream’ of Catholicism and that I am really in such a rare parish.
Again, no slight intended and apologies if offense was taken.
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You said you wanted to know what church I go to, so you can avoid it.
I replied, ‘thank you, how kind.’ My last comment was intended ironically. I am not sure about yours.
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He wants to avoid your sick sad religion.
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BTW I was born in TX, have lived in NYC, Boston, Detroit, Murphy, NC, Atlanta and presently live in SC so we have lived in roughly the same places and I guess we are not traveling among the same people or we have simply had different experiences.
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It must be time and surroundings. My most vivid and personal memory comes from Texas (in Austin no less), where I was shouted at for being a murderer… as I was walking into a clinic to pick up a friend who had gone in for a gynecological exam [unrelated in any way to pregnancy or even, as it turned out, sex] but was afraid to come back out since the protesting crowd had grown particularly hostile.
I did not, at that time, parse the varieties of [self-proclaimed] Christians and, as a result, “Christianity” at large became for me little more than an angry, shouting face that seemed far more interested in my destruction than my salvation.
Since that face contributed so strongly to my turning away from even the semblance of the Church, I never want to be a part of creating that face for any other.
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Sounds like a bad experience and why this mixture of actual women services and abortion services is used to demean the anti-abortion folks. Even so, hostility is not endemic at such protests . . . maybe it is that wild west spirit of the Austin crowd that made the difference. 🙂
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Thank you Geoffrey. It seems to me that the Pope’s understanding of what is needed of him at this time is the result of his years laboring “in the field” as a priest and pastor. He seems to be intimately familiar with the pain and suffering of all us mere humans. I for one welcome his efforts to change the dialogue of “us vs them” into one of more unity and understanding and compassion. He resisted using all the familiar terms that are hot button issues that only serve to split and divide us. In fact I think his approach boarders on, or may even reach, the level of genius.
Of course I could be wrong, I have never denied being an idiot, a term I have only ever applied to myself.
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As others he can confirm, I’ve had my doubts about this Pope, but it seems to me you get him right. This fellow is bringing pastoral experience to bear, and I can’t gainsay him here 🙂
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Yes, I also have reservations, not the same as yours perhaps, but I read with interest what others have to say and I weigh everything. I will say, though, that all in all I was pleased with what I THINK I was hearing and seeing from the Pope in the US. I don’t like all the media hoopla and a popular mega-star pope is extremely weird, and not something that brings me joy. But I do appreciate Francis’ message of joy, I think we need it badly.
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The media is the media, and it’s probably better he got a good press than a bad one 🙂
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Yes, a welcome change, for sure. I only wish the attention was for the right reasons but I won’t sneeze at some good press. 🙂
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I am left rather speechless, and wanting to hide under the table as I did when I was small when I became rather too visible to rather too many people.
Over the past week I have been dealing with my mother in hospital with emphysema, and my dad at my home with issues relating to a terminal condition. It has been a very exhausting time and would be very distressing if I had the time to stop to think about how terrible it all is.
It is rather touching to find that in the midst of all of that my words have been taken seriously among such intelligent and thoughtful people. Thank you all.
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Sorry for your trials Cathy and cannot imagine the pressure that you have on your shoulders. I lost both my parents and my mother in law in 2010 within a 3 week period. We spent many months traveling between SC, NJ (where my mother-in-law lived) and FL and my brother and his wife flew back and forth from AZ to attend to my folks in FL. It was difficult to attend to work and to make sure that someone was always there for my parents during this time . . . so it was difficult but at least I was given a few days break from time to time. Mom had alzheimers for a number of years and dad started getting dementia, had mini-strokes and finally got pneumonia. It was blessing that they passed all at once in some ways.
You are always taken seriously in your comments and they are very well thought out though we have our differences. Your input would be missed should you stop.
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I am sorry you had such a difficult time, Dave. When we reach the point of praying for a quick and peaceful end the guilt mixes equally with the awareness that this is a kindness. It helps to know that you and others will understand this.
My dad is fading. He doesn’t know yet, but I have known for some time.
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You have my prayers Cathy. Times like these reveal as much about ourselves as it does about those who are fading away; or at least it seemed that way to me.
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Yes, that is true. I was afraid the effect might be to tear the family apart; so far I have been pleasantly surprised at the opposite happening. That is at least something.
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Indeed it is.
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Be assured of all our prayers, Cathy. May many blessings be yours for your sacrifice on behalf of your parents. You WILL be richly blessed.
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Thank you Grandpa Zeke. I appreciate the kindness very much. I am in need of kindness. x
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Cathy, may our Lord continue to bless you and yours, and in doing so lessen your load. Thanks for being here.
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Thank you, Steve, I appreciate your kindness and prayers very much.
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No need to hide, dear lady, we may seem a bit gruff at times, but we do read what you say – and take you, and it, seriously.
I was sorry to read about your parents – may God strengthen you and help you all.
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