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To hear some folk talk about it, you’d suppose mercy was the greatest threat to us rather than our greatest boon. I can understand it – we’ve all got something of the older son in us, and like him, we can get pretty irritated when some wastrel gets, as we see it, ‘let off’ the consequences which ought to follow his or her sins; we’d all think of throwing the first stone – it’s the way we are. ‘Rules is rules’, and without them things fall apart. So there’s some justification in our feeling a bit of outrage about those who break the rules, not least if we’ve been pretty scrupulous about it ourselves. If you’re English, it’s like watching someone barge into a queue ahead of you when you’ve been waiting patiently.
But even in that context I was taken aback by the tone of some towards C’s post yesterday; the fellow’s a saint. I am not, so here’s my contribution. For all those standing and insisting Jesus said there is no divorce, I agree, but ask where in Scripture they find warrant for the ingenious device of annulment? Jesus didn’t say ‘well, you can’t divorce, but if the Sanhedrin says there was no marriage, then it isn’t a divorce, so you can marry.’ No, he didn’t. His words are clear. So where did the annulment stuff come from? You first find it when Emperors and other important folk like Kings wanted shot of their wives. The Church was clear, no divorce. So, when Louis VII of France, having married the richest heiress in Europe, Eleanor of Aquitaine, decided to get rid of her as she seemed to produce nothing but girls, suddenly it was discovered that their marriage was not ‘valid’ as they were within four degress of consanguinuity. That the Pope at the time had said that was no bar (it was not exactly a secret that they were related), was now discovered not to be right, and so there was no marriage. Bingo, Louis could go marry another woman, as his previous marriage, despite the daughters, was no marriage, and, ironically, Eleanor could go off and sire a brood of Angevin sons with Henry II of England. The Church, being full of intelligent men, found an intelligent answer to a problem. It did not do the obvious literal thing and say “Jesus said no divorce, so, no divorce”, it said “Jesus didn’t say anything about valid and invalid marriages, but we can, and therefore we are not breaching his teaching”. Ingenious, but was that really what Jesus meant? Well, the Church said it was. Now it may be saying that its own rules can be changed a bit to extend mercy to others, and some folk have the nerve to quote Jesus’ words as though the world were so stupid that it cannot see the obvious – that annulment is the Catholic Church’s way of allowing people to get out of a marriage which was usually legally and contractually OK at the time. Pull the other one, it has bells attached.
I wonder about C. sometimes, as he knows. He’s the one convert I’ve met who seems not to suffer from ‘convertitis’, which I define as a state of mind where, having made up your mind that the Catholic Church is THE Church, you don’t want it to change as it has provided you with a secure anchorage. This is particularly so now, when so many converts came in under two pretty authoritarian Popes, creating an atmosphere where those who wanted refuge from the modern world could find it. It’s no accident that most of this group find rambling Pope Frank a problem. Changes are coming, and they are either going to have to accept them, on the authority of the Pope, or reason like Protestants that a Pope who changes what they think the Church is, is no Pope and does not need to be obeyed. I noted that the one cradle Catholic we have here, David Monier-Williams, who, let’s face it, has seen it all in his Church, is more sanguine and accepting; I note that as a sign of a good Catholic formation. That’s why I wonder about C, he’s more like David than his fellow converts.
He sees what most folk see, which is that his Church has long used annulment as an exercise of mercy where reasonable cause exists to exercise it. There are few cases in the past where a monarch did not get his annulment. The famous one, Henry VIII, was because his wife’s uncle, Charles V, was occupying Rome with his troops and put pressure on the Pope of the day. That was why fat Henry threw a hissy fit and stormed off, any other time and he’d have got what he wanted. Latterly, the Church has extended this privilege to others, but the system is creaking under the demands made on it. To listen to ginny and Dave Smith, some of their Princes of the Church are dreadful heretics who want to usher in divorce, well, I’ve bad news, that happened when the clever fellow invented something Christ said nowt about – annulment. The reason their system is creaking is that their defence of marriage has utterly failed. That does not make the Church wrong, but it does mean that pastorally it needs to do something for the millions of Catholics who have failed marriages on their hands. That, as I read it, is what old Wally Kasper wants – but heck, he’s their Prince of the Church, and if they want to accuse him of heresy, then so be it.
I saw someone cite to C the words of Jesus ‘go sin no more’. I offer this invitation, those here who have sincerely and truly gone and sinned no more, chuck those stones at will. For the rest of us, we will err on the side of mercy. That is not to condone adultery, it is to say that where there is reasonable doubt about the validity of a marriage, things should be moved along a bit quicker, and those screaming blue murder might get a grip on the reality for many of their fellow Catholics and get out more.
Of course, if their Church, and other Churches, did more by way of preparing folk for marriage, that might be best of all. But it would provide far fewer opportunities for folk to get on their high horses and call others heretics and condoners of adultery – which might take all the fun of converting to Catholicism away for some folk! Dear old C, he takes it on the chin – well, colour me bad – when someone smites both cheeks, I smite back. Go show me where Jesus said ‘there will be something called an annulment which means that what everyone said was a marriage at the time wasn’t really – and that fulfils my teaching about no divorce’. if you can’t do that, reflect on what mercy means, and reflect on the gap between what you deserve and what God offers you – and get on your knees and thank him – and stop judging others and leave it to your church. There’s the challenge to all these JPII and B16 converts – can you be obedient to authority when it dares disagree with you? I shall be watching with care over the next month or so.
Thank you, Geoffrey. I suppose I am an odd sort of convert 🙂
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Not so odd really. You disagree with the Church and the systems in place within the Church when it affects you or your loved ones and yet you’re quick to taunt those who were hurt or injured by the advent of the Novus Ordo Mass and offer them little mercy or understanding. It is the same for the rest: we all would like to see things ‘better’ according to our own personal view. For those who are homosexual they demand justice, for those who practice contraception they too want change, for those women who want to be priestesses they demand equality and mercy and at least tell us they experience great hurt. We pick our areas of agreement and disagreement and yet do not extend the privilege to others. When there are princes of the Church that agree with us, they are the good guys. When they don’t they are mere politicians and blowhards. I have my reasons for my beliefs as you do for yours. I am not really shocked by this. The closer to home the hurt and the difficulties encountered, the more we side with a change. Mine is with the Mass predominantly and it makes a five year ordeal seem like a cakewalk to me (20+ year ordeal) and others as we have been forced to attend what we consider a scandal. So the only difference between us is what hill we would like to take our fight. But what brings us together and separates us from many others is that we, no matter how much we might disagree with our pet peeves, have been obedient to the Church and abided by what it says and what it does. Many others, mostly in a hidden way, do not and therefore, are not in communion with the Church at all. Those are the oddities to me . . . not you. 🙂
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All I am doing is saying that we could make the process less bureaucratic and constipated. I think we are allowed to say that without being accused of wanting to change the world 🙂
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How exactly? Short of taking money from our charitible donations and putting them into the salaries of more canon lawyers to speed the process I am at an impasse, C. Since divorce is a civil proceeding and is not a religious proceeding it is not considered by the Church in this matter and must be ignored. We understand separation but not divorce as Christ prohibited it. Thus the idea of nullity of the vows is born in mercy itself as the Church understood that there are extenuating circumstances; forced marriage, refusal to leave the marriage open to procreation or the permanence of this vocation and other impediments. Short of declaring all non-Catholic marriages null and void, since we have taught from the beginning that two baptised adults are bound spiritually as one body, do we practice a method to extend mercy to these persons without examining the first marriage from a Christian understanding? I believe we only disagree on the procedural changes that are possible. You give a wider berth to what is possible than do I.
And yes, we can disagree with any practice you want, as can I, without changing the world (the defined teachings) . . . and we do. Of course we are allowed especially on this issue as the Pope specifically asked for our input; an unprecedented move. I responded; did you?
You say it was the Act of Nullity itself that caused the grief within your family. How will bureaucratic change stop that? The first marriage must be annuled if one is going to be free to marry again or else you have 2 wives . . . both valid? It will be a very ticklish business to devise a plan that does not deminish the vocation of marriage itself . . . at least I can’t see one that is practical.
It is a point of difference. The Church has practiced this (yes, there are and have been abuses) for many centuries. What is exactly, the Kasper proposal or yours that keeps the sanctity of the marriage intact and protects the first abandoned spouse’s rights . . . or is this only for secular ‘no fault divorces’? As I say . . . if it were up to this radical Catholic there are only a few, very limited reasons, that I would grant an Act of Nullity. Not because we should not be ‘merciful’ but precisely because we must be merciful to those who are abandoned by their spouses for a younger or more suitable spouse especially when there are children involved. Separation . . . with a duty to provide for the wife and children of course being operative by the necessity of mercy and the love of God, has always been an option.
“Quality of Mercy” I do not quite understand unless it is in the secular realm; a judge offering mercy due to public pressure or other factors. Mercy in the Church is a show of love: first for the love of the soul and second for the love of the person . . . both at the service of God and for the mercy He has shown all of us . . . therefore, for love of Him. It has never been unmerciful to love the sinner and hate the sin or to attempt to find ways to reconcile the fallen-away to full communion in the Church. So for Geoffrey: if you have another way to keep the words of Christ sacrosanct without modifying His words and without finding a means to nullify the origianal marriage’s sacramental bonding of two into one, I would like to know how you do this without providing a procedure that might declare the first marriage null in a Christian context?
For if mercy is both forgiveness of repented sin and also the green light to continue in sin then everything in Satan’s large book of horrors in on the table. What shall we do next? The most likely will be to allow active homosexuals to participate fully in the Church openly. Funny, how this has already raised its head in the preliminary synod, isn’t it?
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It won’t, and that’s why it is a distraction to think that in saying what I did I was applying it generally. Most of those who know about these things say the system is not working well, even where it exists. That being so, something needs doing. You, ginny and others jump to the conclusion that the Pope is making things easier and that Kasper is some kind of heretic. I’ve just finished reading his new book on the Catholic Church and can find no trace of it. This is about making a poor system work better – precisely what is so wrong with that?
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I defy you to produce a single word in yesterday’s discussion where I said the Pope was making things easier (though he has already spoken of having Vatican appointed men travel from diocese to diocese to hand out Decrees of Nullity, presumably for the short term). And please produce my statement that Kasper is a heretic . . . though he may be. I try to steer clear of such things but will allow the Church in time to judge this pontificate and the orthodoxy of Cardinal Kasper . . . that is not my job. I just want the attack on the family to be fixed and so far, this synod seems to be part of the attack. We shall see what happens in October.
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In which case I am really not sure what we are discussing? I say the Pope is trying to make the annulment process fairer, you seemed to cry ‘Catholic divorce by the back door’. Quite what is it you are objecting to then? Where, except in Voris and the right-wing press is this ‘attack on the family’? I saw nothing in Kasper’s interviews which attacked the family, I see nothing in what he has written which attacks the family. Are you not reading into this something which others are placing there?
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Here in England, we defend our rights with the law, we don’t go running to Rome with its Italianate ways and long, bureaucratic process. We fought kings and princes and archbishops for these rights. Your country has them too, we don’t need canon Law – we need the love of Christ and his mercy. More of theat and fewer lawyers, and the place would stink less.
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Never used ‘Catholic divorce by the back door’ though you did. I think we have read differing accounts that I have, Archbishop Athanasius Schneider, and Cardinal Leo Burke. I take their arguments seriously even if you don’t. Again . . . this is your right. You can take whichever side you want in the Synod. All I know is that they cannot change the teaching and that the practice then, should necessarily be derived from our teaching.
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I am afraid I think Scneider and Burke troublemakers with an agenda of their own. I read what they say, I read what Kasper says, and they are about as accurate about him as Fox news is about Clinton.
I am taking no side. I think reform is needed and I await the discussion. I sent me twopennyworth in, as you and many others did. The Church can change any of its processes, and I have seen no one say that the teaching will be changed, though I have seen many alarmists saying that is the agenda. I have stopped listening to them as I think they are alarmists. Let us, as good Catholic should, wait and see what our fathers in Christ decide 🙂
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It sure sounds like you’re taking sides.
That is what I said yesterday . . . the outcome is the only thing that we will know for certain when all is said and done. 🙂
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I am simply saying it as I read it. I don’t think the traditionalists are honesty representing what Kasper is saying – and I have read what he writes and what they write.
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We can leave it there, my friend.
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We can indeed, my good friend. I always appreciate your wisdom and good sense, and among friends there is always room for disagreement in good faith. I am glad dear Geoffrey has taken my advice in good part – he’s the authentic voice of old Nonconformist England of yore 😄
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Indeed he is, my friend. I hope not to have upset him too much . . . though you know me . . . there is much more that could be said but best be left unsaid.
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Oh I thought you both gave as good as you got – doughty fighters both – but I thought it might be ‘time out’ time 😄
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Indeed, we are too old to keep up the furious pace for too long . . . a few smelling salts and a belt of brandy might get us started again. 🙂
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I think you could both go at it all night if necessary – you are both men I’d want at my back if I was in a tight spot. 😄
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I appreciate the sentiment friend and certainly agree with the assessment of Geoffrey and the same can be said for you as well. As far as going all night, I must admit that our 15 round boxing match yesterday was a bit wearing at this age. I was happy when it stopped and I got a little breather. 🙂
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Me too – we are stubborn chaps – but good-hearted ones with a lively sense of humour 😀
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I certainly hope the other readers here understood that . . . I knew that you did and didn’t mind a dustup with a friend. 🙂
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I echo that – all good fun though 😊
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Agreed. I must say that I wasn’t bored the last two days. 🙂
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Me too 😊
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Dave, my friend, listen to yourself a while. Where does the Jesus of the Gospel commend a system of canon law which places extra burdens on the ordinary people? He condemns those who do this? He nowhere allows divorce. Your church has never had the guts to stay with this because of pressure from monarchs, so smart lawyers came up with this annulment scam. It is a scam, and of course as an abuse it leads to more abuses. You Church should have the guts to say Jesus said no divorce, so no divorce – end of.
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How is Canon Law a burden? Do you know what it is Geoffrey. I have used Canon Law to protect my rights . . .they were given to me and the rest of the Catholics as a method of finding justice when you have gone to your priest or Bishop and cannot get any justice. Talk about mercy.
Please describe the extra burden I have been hearing so much about.
The Church does say no divorce, my friend. We have no such thing as a divorce. We do not recognize the state’s competence in granting one and thereby the only thing that we can competently judge on is whether it was a marriage in the first place. Again, this is a mercy not a burden.
You can put away your wife for the reason’s Christ says but it does not mean that you have the right to remarry . . . because the marriage is until death of one of the spouses.
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The extra burden is clear. Instead of telling people what Jesus said and sticking to it, your church has invented a set of laws – and yes, I have read them and they go on for hundered of thousands of words. They are the work of the Pharisees. A tribunal takes time and it takes money and I know people who have felt humiliated by the questions they’ve been asked. This sort of thing was not why Jesus dies for us, it is the work of sinful men who can’t pluck up the guts to tell folk there is no divorce, and that if they got married they got married and should stick with it. Annulment is the Catholic way of being able to say ‘we don’t do divorce’. Well, if it quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck, chances are it is a relation of a duck.
It is all designed to avoid the patent meaning of what Jesus said – no wonder it is a mess.
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If you were a civilian canon lawyer, would you expect to be paid? You have no idea of which you speak. Who should pay them . . . or should we defraud them of a just wage? The questions are many but they are guarded by the same expectations of attorney – client previlege. How else do you determine if there were an irregularity? Do you want to be defended without telling your side or the other side telling theirs. It is not a ‘gotcha’ thing . . . we are looking for any possibility that there was an irregularity where the marriage might never have been seen as being valid. As I say, my rights as layman are contained in that code and for me, I am glad that it exists.
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Did Christ need Canon Lawyers? Did Paul? Do we see them in the Apostolic Church? No, they maned without them, as a church full of Christians can and should.
You have a church full of rules. I have one full of Christ’s mercy and we manage without lawyers as the Apostles did. If my church needed lawyers, I’d leave it. Never met a lawyer I liked.
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Did they have divorced and remarried Christians pounding on the doors Geoffrey? That is a senseless statement for there had been few marriages within the Christian community between baptised adults at that time . . . divorced and remarried . . . posh.
I don’t like lawyers either but if you want protections of rights then you need laws and if you have laws you need lawyers. Canon Law is a very special biblically based set of laws.
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Well, by the third or fourth century there were plenty, married in pagan ways. They don’t seem to have needed canon law then. it came in once there was a need to curry favour with monarchs. Bad move.
The law of the land should be enough, and where it isn’t, we should be prepared to suffer and even die. My people did just that in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, and we’d do it again. We’re free-born Englishmen, we have no need of some foreign law – our own lawas hard-won from the kings are what we hold to – that and our strong right arm – the rest is frippery. And with that, I’m off to find my pills as C kindly suggested!
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One reason I stay where I am is I don’t have to put up with any of this. You chaps sign up for this, and yes, you all disagree with some bit of it – and who can judge, but you may be right, something may indeed be rotten in the state of Denmark.
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Show me any faith that has no rotten apples and sorry examples of the teachings that are taught by the faith in question.
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All trees have them. Jesus said no divorce. He said nothing about annulments, that was a man-made scame. It is an abuse and leads to more abuses – the camel has been swallowed whole, by all means strain over the gnats. We both know Jesus meant no dovorce, no ‘if a tribunal can mount a claim that on your wedding night you took contraception, and never intended to have babies, your marriage was not a marriage’. If that was what Jesus meant, I think he would have said it. No divorce, period. Anything else is the slippery slope – no use complaining the slope is slippery, it should never have been invented.
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The Catholic Church says no divorce. I don’t get your point. So we have a name for declaring a marriage not being a marriage . . . what would call it if a man forced a woman into marriage or some other infraction? We call it nullity . . . so sue us.
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I am simply saying what is true. Jesus said nothing about annulments, nor did the early church. Monarchs wanted a divorce, Your church have it them under the nake of an annulmet. It can say, a la Bill Clinton, it depends what the word ‘is’ is – look, the word divorce is not the same as the word annulment all it likes. The effect is the same. A king wants to leave his wife, the Church says there was no marriage, so he can marry again – several times if he wants. It’s a scam, everyone knows it, and your church, having swallowed a herd of camels is making a fuss over the gnats.
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Well you can deride the Catholic Church all you want and throw out your slanderous labels of pharisees as well. It changes nothing: you are wrong.
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Yes, of course I am, you can point to many examples in the early church of canon law, showing me how they decided the creed and were very influential – I assume, since you are so confident you are right. All this stuff is man made, and the men who made it did so to exercise power and make money. Shjow me a poor lawyer and I’ll show you a liar.
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Again you speak of Canon Law like it is some set of pharisaical extra regulations. They are protections. They started collecting these rules many hundreds of years ago to settle arguments and were finally codified. They do not decide doctrine they were made to keep us true to the doctrine . . . especially when rights of individuals or groups were at stake.
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Concur, with every word. Thank you.
Bravo Zulu!
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I suspect not everyone will share that view 🙂
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I suspect you are correct. 🙂 Still, you present my view better than I do!
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Thank you, Neo – it had to be said. Let’s face it, if they’d spent as much time and energy on child abuse cases as they have on this, they’d be a pile richer. Of course the RCC wasn’t the only church, but it goes on and on about Canon Law and ignores what was happening under its nose.
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It did. I commented to C yesterday that it seems to be mostly converts, the cradle Catholics seem to be more -perhaps realistic is the word – about how the church functions.
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I’m not able to comment adequately on this topic, not sure why. Oh yes I do know why: because I will be called a heretic. So be it.
I’d like to say that I am in complete agreement with everything Chalcedon has written on this topic and fully understand Jeffrey’s comments today. I believe that we, as mere mortals, misconstrue the Gospel message terribly by indulging in arguments about who is “saved” and who is a heretic. Good grief. It is quite clear that these arguments only divide the faithful and bear rotten fruit.
Jesus spoke about sinners and the need for repentance because he had the authority to do so. The Bishops of the Church have authority, this I believe, but I also know that all of mankind (this includes the Church hierarchy at times, let’s be honest!) has the tragic ability of taking the divine Word and applying it in ways that say much more about human beings than about God. The Bible teaches us about the perfect love of Heaven. We, sinful creatures that we are, cannot achieve heavenly perfection in the here and now. The Church, as a teaching instrument of God’s authority and love in the here and now, better serves the faithful by extending God’s love and compassion and mercy while gently teaching the Gospel of God’s eternal fatherhood. Yes, fatherhood involves discipline and punishment, but this must be tempered (as in the story of the prodigal son).
Yes, I am a Catholic convert and I love the Church. I also believe in personal conversion (to the God who calls us each by name and knows the number of hairs on our heads). I let these words of Jesus guide and sustain my life and my faith:
“‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Matthew 22:37-40
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That’s sound thinking Zeke. If you have, as you have, a church, then telling its leaders they are heretic when they are just suggesting reforms, seems pretty extreme to me – but heck, I’m an English Baptist, so what do I know? 🙂
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I’d say you know quite a lot, Jeffrey. 🙂
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English Baptists are an independent-minded lot. We were persecuted by Rome and by Canterbury and by the Kings, and we said to them all, ‘By Christ we live and by Christ we die’ – so, they killed us, they imprisoned us, they put us in pillories. But by Christ we live, and by him we die. Priests, lawyers and the whole crew of men of power we hold to scorn – before one name alone do we bow the knee – King Jesus!
We also go on a bit 🙂
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Apologies for misspelling your name Geoffrey. I’ve got it now (and a new pair of glasses.)
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No problem, Zeke, I’m aware that Americans usually spell it with a J 🙂
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Thank you, I usually try to be more considerate and careful though. Will in the future.
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Not a problem between brethren, Zeke 🙂
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“Yes, I am a Catholic convert and I love the Church”
Good heavens man. You went religion shopping and decided on that graven image ridden child molesting costume holyman cult of personality?
My grandma used to ….It takes all kinds.
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I guess he could have wandered round lying about what other folk believe, but then he wouldn’t have been a Christian. Are you a Christian lad?
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`I wasn’t aware I lie about what people believe. that would be futile. anyway, a lie is saying something I know isn’t true. that is futile also. I catch flack for stating facts. im born again, I cant say because I didn’t ask for it. I never thought anything would come of it. it scared my parents but my grandma liked it.
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Well, lad, you should read more and type less, and then you’d be better for it. God be with you.
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Wrong again Bosco. I was not “religion shopping.” I attended countless Bible studies with friends of various backgrounds and God lead me to where I am now. It is HIS WILL for me. If its not YOUR WILL, so be it.
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God led you there.he very well could have. hes got plans for everyone my brother.
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I believe one of my (inconsequential) comments to Bosco got lost again, C.
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Found it and posted 🙂
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You are under the illusion that God made your Canon Law. It is a gigantic pile of Pharasaical nonsense designed to tie decent folk up in red tape and let clerics rule. Any serious look at it will see tha is what it has done and will do. You know, as do I, what Jesus said about not piling unnecessary burdens.
Jesus said ‘no divorce’. Kings said they wanted on, your Church found a way to pretend that there was no divorce involved by finding ways of saying that even when a man and woman had been married with the express permission of the Pope and had many children, there had been mno marriage. If you cannot see you have swallowed a herd of camels whilst straining at gnats, the rest of the world can.
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Yes, Jesus spoke of nothing except how to make the law more rigorous and bind the people with greater burdens. If he does in your Bible, I have one where he says the opposite. If you can’t see this is why so many of us think you are in the church of the Pharisees, you can’t – but you are.
This whole thing is regulated by Canon Law, and you know it. Show me where Jesus, Paul, or the early Church had a system of Canon law. You can’t, it is all made up to make men powerful. You can deny it all you like, but most people can see it.
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Yes, of course, in Acts it says so. No, it doesn’t, your lot made it up and bind it on men to keep them in subjection. You once thought this before you fell for the scam. Now your conscience makes you uneasy – listen to it.
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Utter piffle. Oddly enough, we’ve managed without ’em for centuries. Get off your knees, and be there only for King jesus, not some smarty-pants lwyer fellow. We know what Jesus thought of such, and I agree with him. You have your silly canon law, I’ll go with the laws of old england, and where they persecute me, I’ll go to jail. Pettyfogging cowards resort to law, brave honest Englishmen defend their own and, in the face of tyranny, band together. I am a free bron Englishmen, no foreign system of law for me! (And yes, I voted UKIP and wilm vote no in the referendum).
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Geoffrey – remember your blood pressure 🙂
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You are right – apologies all round. I shall put away the sword my ancesotr wore at the Battle of the Boyne (did I ever tell you about that, well ….) 🙂
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Not you too? 🙂
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Indeed so – but it will take me some time to find it … 🙂
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Geoffrey, I hear in your words the blood of old England – bless you and keep you, it is ‘folk’ like you who made this country – and the USA, what they are/were. God go with you – and do find those pills 🙂
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And with you too C. You’re a good fellow.
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Thank you, Geoffrey.
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And now I shall follow your advice 🙂
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Aye, lad, happen there is, but I don’t think the way to enforce it is with a bunch of Italian lawyers – am I still allowed to say that? I’m going to heed C’s advice and calm down 🙂
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Just a side note, while I second being careful of the blood pressure, it does me no end of good to hear those words again from over there, sometimes seems like the ‘old country’ has forgotten the struggle of a thousand years, and suddenly decided that serfdom wasn’t so bad.
We’ll be delighted when you again turn from that benighted continent and rejoin those whom you taught to be free.
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I am fine, my friend – but the blood gets roused by talk of foreign laws and priestcraft – bred in the bone!
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We understand completely!
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I just lack whatever gene it is that makes some men happy to accept priests as mediators between themselves and God – must be the long Baptist heritage 🙂
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I know, I think it a symptom of Protestantismm, mostly, a fair amount of it in me as well.
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It keeps us where we are, I think!
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Yep, it does, both in the faith, and civilly, as well.
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I think so. As I just suggested to ginny, the way she and her church are going means Catholic marriages are down 64% since 1970 at a time the Catholic population has increased by 40%. The idea that they are getting something right on the family seems not to be supported by the evidence- but hey, who needs evidence when you’ve got an opinion? 🙂
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Indeed, and we all have opinions, mine are usually wrong, once I get to checking the facts, but it would be a better world if they were right. 🙂
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Let’s face it, if we didn’t all have opinions, there would be no here, here 🙂
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Let’s get some real examples shall we? Louis VII marries the richest heiress in Europe, but she gives him only daughters. The Pope allowed the marriage. Louis asks for an annulment, the Pope gives it him on the grounds of consanguinity. That didn’t stop the marriage first time. Get real, it’s a racket, and we all know it. Fat Harry would have had his annulment had Charles V’s force not been in Rome. You can parse all your angels on pinheads – Jesus said nothing about annulments, nor did the Apostolic Church. All the work of sinful men wanting to satisfy power – as it is now.
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Any man who stays in a church run by a heretic is one himself.
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No, donatism is something a bit different, it doesn’t refer to the Pope. Still, you’re happy to lable the Pope a heretic, that’s a public witness to what you think about the man who leads your church and the men who select him. If you want to stay in the mess and get tarred, your business. You used to know better.
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Me too.
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To the Devil with all heretics
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Hello QVO. Just wondering if you can provide proof of the heretical acts of our current Holy Father, Pope Francis, of which you speak. And I’m also wondering where in canon law it states that you can actually judge the Holy Father. Clue: it doesn’t. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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I think one of the problems re: preparation for marriage for the Catholic Church is that in many countries people treat it like the English treat the C of E: a nice building you hire out for special occasions and attend at Christmas & Easter, then forget about it the rest of the time. The way some Romance peoples talk about the Catholic Church you’d think they owned it….For my money Catholicism actually offers quite good preparation for marriage in principle – the problem is that prospective couples don’t take it seriously enough and that says less about marriage than it does about church engagement *in general*. Not that I’m picking sides in this thing (I’m already *heretical* enough as it is…), but I found that comment by Geoffrey interesting.
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My guess would be that if inadequate seriousness is grounds for an annulment, the RCC could issue more or less a blanket annulment and be right. No divorce said Jesus. Too hard for us said sinful man. Ah, annulment, said the first lawyer and spawn of Satan 🙂
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The only good lawyer is a dead lawyer i take it?
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They’re better than the live sort, but still cause problems.
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I can only speak to ‘mercy’ in regards to what I wrote yesterday to C. If I was showing a lack of mercy in your view, it is more important to me if that is what C read into it.
First the act of showing no mercy seems to be predicated in C’s predicament as he describes the hurt feelings of his divorced family. I wish I had a dollar for every time my feelings were hurt over the last 7 decades.
In fact, your reading and judgement of my discussion with C might be one of them. You can send your dollar to my address in SC. 🙂
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My line is do as you would be done by 🙂
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A good thing to live by. I would ask nothing more than I have advocated for myself. Had I needed an act of nullity before joining the Church and knew that there were good reason to expect that it was not a valid marriage I would have done what was necessary.
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Fair point, but I don’t believe Jesus said anything about nullity. We both know what he said and meant. I am sorry, but this annulment thing to me is a clear example of clever men toadying to kings. Your Bishops should treat them as Ambrose did Theodosius. These men, like all of us, need reminding that Jesus said no divorce unless there is adultery – and no remarriage. if we’d stuck to that we’d not need this conversation, surely?
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Well, I think Jesus would say that their are certain presumptions made between married people . . . like that it was done by their own free will, that they were open to procreation etc. This was not a discussion of how you read your Bible. It was a discussion about how we deal ‘mercifully’ with those who not only divorced civilly but then compounded the problem by remarriage. Some cases are much harder than that.
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We can only know what Jesus said. The gay lobby argue as you do, so let’s not go there. C has just, rightly, told me to calm down, s I am off to do just that. Did I tell you aboutthe sword my ancestor wore at the battle of the Boyne? No, well perhaps another time, as it’s time to put the thing away.
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In the state of this world, undoubtedly – won’t be long before the state allows Bosco to ‘marry’ his horse.
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I think any Christian faith which manages to find so many things with which to bind the poor faithful needs a bit of an overhaul. Can you show us all where Jesus talked of old codes and remind us what he said?
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They cant find jesus talking about religion codes and lawyers. They don’t give a damn whats in the bible. The have their canon lawyers and a money laundering bank, a country and a Jail, a postage stamp and ambassadors. Ive even heard them refer to the church of Mary as a pilgrim. I am to believe this pilgrim owns the largest catch of gold in the world. A pilgrim…..(;-D
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You’ve got to separate truth from fiction, Bosco. A global church needs more than your church and mine by the way of banking and the rest of it, but if things ran the way they should, all that should be with the local churches, which would work together – as they used to in Paul’s day. That was the best model, and we still work with it.
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WASHINGTON (AP) — A divided House voted Friday to block Planned Parenthood’s federal funds for a year, as Republican leaders tried to keep GOP outrage over abortion from spiraling into an impasse with President Barack Obama that could shut down the government.
Thought id share the good news. Mercy for the unborn
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I was granted an annulment in the Catholic Church in order to pursue religious vocation, consequently it was fast-tracked and entirely uncomplicated. It did not cost me a penny.
When I married in 1975 it was in an Anglican village church in Wolvercote near Oxford which we chose because it would be ideal for the wedding photos. Neither of us were Christians: we were atheists and socialists at Ruskin College, where we had celebrated the fall of Saigon by raising the red flag on the college roof. We divorced in 1982, but the annulment was done in 2006. Ironically it was easy under canon law because my ex-wife had been baptised a Catholic. Consequently as a (non-practising) Catholic and atheist, she had failed to seek permission from the Church to marry another atheist in an Anglican church. It was pure Alice in Wonderland, but luckily for me an instant annulment. Even having benefited from the ease of release from marriage vows, I have therefore always seen the process as ridiculous.
As regards the synod on the family and the present sound and fury leading up to it, I have now entirely lost sympathy with both sides of the argument as I see the Catholic Church descending into the same synodical warfare that wrecked the CofE. I have given up reading about it.
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That’s an interesting summary, Gareth (if I might?). I can see why it’s needed given the way things are, but it can’t be right that things are this way. There are many disadvantages to being in a small church, but the main advantage is we can sort things out between ourselves, rather as the Apostles did.
I think there is an optimum size in human institutions, and once you get beyond it, things get bureaucratic, and those who like that sort of thing take over, and the whole thing becomes a farce. I saw it across time in my schools. When I began, it was in schools with a few hundred pupils, and that worked well – but once headmasters (and trustees) got mad ideas about how to make more money by ‘expansion’. the process started, and by the time I went, I was more than happy to get out – a school with three thousand pupils is not a school, it is an educational factory.
Hope the teaching in Spain is better than that!
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As a matter of fact, my school is now expanding and a new building has just been completed, but it will be a very long time before we have three thousand! It is good when the size of the school allows you to know the name of every pupil in the place, for that encourages a family atmosphere in which pastoral care is best exercised.
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Glad to hear it, Gareth – yes, I am a firm believer in what you say – when we know who everyone is, everyone feels they are someone!
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Correct assessment, but we still need to fight the good fight. Christ would and did.
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Actually Geoffrey, now that I’ve read and digested what you wrote I can comment.
A stone thrown in a Biblical sense means I’ve sat and listened to someone bring actual charges against someone. In this process of public witness, I’ve been given the privilege of participation in the carrying out of a just sentence by being asked by those hearing the case to lift a stone and throw it. That means the person who will be the target of the stones has been proven guilty. Since the privilege of being asked to assist in carrying out the sentence thus affirming my own personal consent to live according to the Covenant, involves actually listening to the charges, hearing all the witnesses and any proofs that may be had, as well as listening to those passing judgement do so, (*****please note that I’m NOT the one passing the judgement, just the person who gets to carry out the sentence******) I must be assured of the persons guilt by those bringing the charges against the person before I can justly lift a stone or I’m guilty of a murder. Oh dear! That fact compels me to listen very carefully. Yeah. It isn’t a simple thing to be called to witness Justice.
I suppose a person could claim a disinterest and happening upon a bloodied corpse left to the vultures to feed upon and seeing many bloodied stones near the corpse could conclude that a person had indeed been stoned to death by several persons. But not having been there for the actual adjudication, that disinterested observer of a dead body has no way of telling if the sentence carried out was just or not, nor can they tell if the dead body is of a guilty person. All they can see is that a apparent sentence has been carried out. And so it is with God’s Justice. We won’t be witness to that until the end of the world when the general judgement that comes after the resurrection of the whole of mankind when all the evil deeds of the whole of mankind will be visible to all! This event in the sequence of events at the end of the world is called the Divine Illumination and it will be visible by all. For Biblical reference, see Jesus’ talk in Matthew about the Last Judgement when He separates the sheep from the goats. We will rejoice on that great and terrible day to see the Justice of God which is perfect. In this life it is only in process and can never be perfect. Though men may strive to perfect and purify the process by which God’s Justice touches lives, it won’t ever be perfect for only God can render Justice perfectly. What we have here is only a shadow and the best men can do. It isn’t perfect, not by a long shot and has left many bloodied bodies about plucked by the birds.
Since you are considering Mercy though I also need to add that from your perspective and that of many, many others, mercy rendered negates justice and to folks like you. The way you see it there should be no punishment for any sins at all because mercy negated them. But this is not so. Mercy and Justice are BOTH attributes of the same God and exist in Him in an eternal way. It is essential to get this point. They work tandem to each other. This is why there is no forgiveness of sins that aren’t repented of. Justice must first be satisfied before Mercy can be had.
Look to the Cross and see what sin has done. Look on that for about fifteen good long minutes and see if your heart and mind aren’t moved to a deeper understanding of the price that HAD TO BE PAID for your sins. Justice had to happen BEFORE Mercy could happen. It is often a painful thing and it should be. Look at what it cost God. The God who though innocent, sent His only begotten Son to die an ignominious death upon a Cross so sinners could be freed. God did not die so they could pass the fried chicken at the Church picnic and be glad no one is going to stone them to death for anything because God is Merciful! Sadly this is the mindset of far too many. Jesus died so I don’t have to……………….but I deserve death not Jesus. The second part to that statement is rarely gotten to. Most are more like those rejoicing in marrying and being given in marriage as in the days of Noah. Are you?
God bless. Ginnyfree.
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If we consider the woman taken in adultery you will note one thing – she was ‘taken in adultery’. In Mosaic Law adultery was hard to prove, you needed witnesses. There were ones here. The Pharisees reasoned as you do. There had been a process, there was a Law, she was guilty, not them throwing the stones, that was what the law prescribed. The Pharisees get a bad rap, but they were only following what the Law said. The woman was guilty of adultery, justice HAD to be done. There’s no sign any of them particularly welcomed it, and no doubt they were, on a human level, sorry for the lass, but there was no choice; the Law was the Law. With me so far? That seems to go with all you say here – a price had to be paid, it was painful, but sin is sin and death its reward. All very sad and a salutary lesson to us all. End of. Then that Jesus fellow turned up.
If Jesus died for anything, it was for sinners, not the self-righteous, not those who stood in the Temple and thanked God they were not like others. It was not for those who tithed, who did not think of themselves as sinner, and who had prominent places in the synagogue. Jesus went and blew up that cosy little mental world where, by jiminy, the bad get a whupping, and the good get to wax lyrical about what HAD to happen before mercy. Jesus quietly asked those without sin to cast the first stone. You, from what you say, would have been there throwing away, happy that justice preceded mercy – quite ignorant of Jesus’ meaning. He’s talking to you and to all the self-righteous, and he’s saying, pipe down, you are as bad as she is, and if you knew it, you’d pipe down.
Now those old Pharisees, they knew it, they were not all lost, because they put down those stones and they went away quietly. If you follow Jesus, perhaps you’ll do the same?
There is nothing of JUSTICE in an innocent man suffering torture for me and you, it is sheer undeserved mercy. In its face we should be quiet in awe – and a bit slower to judge.
In 1970 there were 426 marriages celebrated in US Catholic Churches. Since then the Catholic population in the USA has gown 40%. Last year there were 154,450 marriages in Catholic Churches – a drop of 64%. Sounds to me as though your Church in the USA has not found an answer to this crisis with your line of judgment – perhaps if it tried mercy as Jesus recommends? Who knows? They are doing it your way and it is failing – I recall Einstein’s definition of stupidity and wonder if you really want to carry on failing? Guess so – good luck – you clearly need it. My advice would be stop digging – but folk like digging when they are in a hole.
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Geoffrey, you keep adding to what I say and placing words in my mouth that aren’t there. You keep adding this: “those who stood in the Temple and thanked God they were not like others” as if to say I said those things. I have never said I’m better than anyone nor not guilty nor claimed I’m innocent. I’ve only explained Church teaching and defended it. I’ve identified error and refuted it. This is not passing judgement. Judgement regards the state of souls and if anyone keeps getting judged around here, I think it is me. I also think the Church keeps getting judged as well. This is the problem. If one judges the Church, one judges God for He made the Church so His dwelling could be among men. It is because He did. The Church is the spotless Bride of the Lamb. I being a Church member I am His, not my sins, just me made righteous by His Blood, not mine. My pain doesn’t save me. His does.
Another problem is a basic misunderstanding of Justice. God is Just. God is Love. God is Beauty. God is Mercy. These are some of the Attributes of God. They don’t cross each other out. One doesn’t obscure the others. One God in three divine persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. You can read this on a page but those words do not contain the Being He is. By learning all of the attributes of God, one begins to see how they all work together. It is perfectly understandable to think that mercy eliminates justice, but this isn’t so for Justice being part of who God is, it cannot be eliminated. That is what people actually imply when they claim as you do, that once one obtains the mercy of God, one owes nothing to justice. This isn’t so or there would be no Hell of the damned nor devils cast into eternal fire nor any second death. But those things are real. VERY real. That is only a part of the picture too. Denial will not satisfy their hunger nor eliminate them. Only the Blood of the Lamb will do. If it isn’t on the soul at death, the second death will destroy both body and soul in Hell for all of eternity after the resurrection of the body and the final Judgement. Judgement concerns Justice. If Mercy did away with Justice, the thing we say in the Creed, wouldn’t be necessary nor part of our beliefs. “He will come to judge the living and the dead.” If things were completely justified at the time they are forgiven, then we wouldn’t be awaiting the final time of Judgement, the second coming of Christ. When you recite that part of the Cree, you are admitting that Justice still hasn’t bee satisfied and that a greater Judgement awaits all mankind. It is the truth. This is why some of us still fear and cling all the more to the Lamb and His Church for our salvation is not complete nor assured, just hoped for.
So Geoffrey, do you skip that part of the Creed? Do you believe there will be a Judgement of the living and the dead as is outlined in Matthew at the separation of the sheep and the goats? Or has the mercy of God done away with all those ugly loose ends? Or do you tremble like the rest of us in anticipation of the lack we all fear being found with at that time on the great and terrible day of the Lord?
The Act of Mercy the process folks go thru who seek to be reconciled to God and His Church that is called an Annulment is an attempt to satisfy some of the Justice of God. Sorry it hurts and is humiliating and an inconvenience. But is Bloodied the Lamb. God didn’t make the parties do as they did. They placed the burden on their own shoulders by sinning in the first place. Complaining about what it takes to set it right seems a giant mockery of the Crucifixion itself. No, the church picnic is preferred by those who are members of the Church of Nice.
Maybe I should change my name to Ginny Gadfly.
God bless. Ginnyfree.
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There will certainly be a judgement. The Judge is God He is the only just judge. What do we know of his justice? We know that in order to save our worthless selves, he took upon himself death, and death upon the Cross. You, like your church, seem to think that that means there is unfinished business, hence Purgatory, which is based on one misreading of one verse in Corinthians as far as I can see.
There was no ‘annulment’ in the early church, no such thing until some powerful folk wanted shot of their wives. Your church then, instead of preaching Christ to the kings of this world, came up with a way round. However often you and Dave say it isn’t ‘divorce’, it is. It quacks like a duck, it waddles like a duck, and you need a pile of lawyers to make a decision.
What sets it right, the blood of the Lamb. it has ben shed, You don’t need to go creeping round to some lawyer or pay someone a fee to get Christ’s justice – you have it. Wake up and see it. You really think all those guys who can’t agree in their pointy hats can give you Jesus? He’s there for you.
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Pointy hats? Geoffrey, you’ve been taking too many lessons from Bosco. Try not to be so judgemental. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Never liked bishops, never saw no need for them. Elders was what the early church had, and they had no palaces neither. Bit like that old Pope fancis you’re so complimentary about 🙂
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Oh no not the pointy hats!! 😀
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“However often you and Dave say it isn’t ‘divorce’, it is.”
Geoffrey, just a quick check of what I think I’m reading here from you. So my questions I have are these:
Is a marriage between 2 people of the same sex a marriage? What the civil courts say is of no concern to Christianity. Only the Church can determine this.
Is a marriage to 2 or 3 different spouses a marriage, whether at the same time or done serially? If not, then which marriage is valid and which invalid? Again it is the job of the Church to determine.
Is a marriage forced upon a partner by implied threat a marriage? The Church is competent to decide this.
If I am capable of recognizing sin and judging sin, then how much more so is the Church who has seen them all in Her 2000 years. You seem to think that the Church is incapable of answering the above questions when all I am saying is that She is competent to answer much more difficult questions than these. The Church is not hanging signs around anyone’s neck or stoning them for living in a second marriage, She is trying to determine whether the present situation must be remedied or if the first marriage was, due by some impediment, not a marriage to begin with. Seems a sensible task to me.
This is not the same as the woman caught in adultery. That was a one-off situation and these sins are often committed and forgiven. This is a situation where Jesus, says “go and sin no more” and then she goes right back to her adulterous relationship with a second husband. i doubt Jesus had this in mind. As many things were not taught by Christ that might come up in the future, is perhaps why Christ gave Peter the keys to bind and to loose and the gift of the Holy Spirit to guide the Church. The Church tries as best She can to do just that . . . bind and loose. That does not mean adding burdens, it means trying to find solutions to problems we have not seen in Scripture unless it is there in some embryonic sense, such as abortion, contraception etc.
Nevertheless, you have your opinion on this just as I do . . . and you know that I will not convince you otherwise nor will you convince me. My friend, I just think we judge differently; where I see mercy and justice you see simony and power mongering. We are far apart on this . . . which I guess we both know at this point. 🙂
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It depends on what your country says. If you elect folk and they make the law, that’s the law. God said one man and one women forever – said nowt about any annulment or get out jail free. Problem is Dave, your church started the get out of jail free stuff with annulments, you don’t really like ’em any more than I do 🙂
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Of course I don’t like them, my friend. But I also know that the examples I gave are not real marriages either.
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Best of luck explaining that to those in them.
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Hello Geoffrey. Be not afraid! Explaining the ins and outs of marriage to those in the process of either conversion to the Church or reconciliation after a hiatus is not hard. Jesus did it, so the Church does it. Remember the woman at the well? Jesus examined her whole marital life and told her where she stood in His eyes in a very matter of fact way – “The woman answered and said to him, ‘I do not have a husband.’ Jesus answered her, ‘You are right in saying, “I do not have a husband.” 18 For you have had five husbands, and the one you have now is not your husband. What you have said is true.’ 19 The woman said to Him, ‘Sir, I can see that you are a prophet.'” John 4:17-19. There is much more to their conversation than I’ve quoted but this much can get the juices flowing. Jesus is in the process of both converting the woman and reconciling her to Himself. She has had many relationships and she believes they are marriages, but God tells her otherwise. She agrees and only knows some to the truth, God reveals more to her and subsequently more to those around her after she is sent to bare witness to this exchange with Him. Others come to believe in Him through her witness to all this. This is an excellent example to draw from to understand the actual BIBLICAL proofs of the necessity of reconciling converts in all aspects of their lives including their marriages outside the Covenantal relationship. It is God’s work. He is sitting there at the well doing it. She notices this work and calls it prophetic and it is! Folks puzzle often about the prophetic voice in the Church and wonder where it is heard. Well from this passage we can easily see it raised in the Marriage Tribunals of today. God speaks thru His servants who do His work just as the He did for the woman at the well, a Samaritan. Often those in irregular marriage situations who go thru the process of reconciliation that happens to regularize their marriages find themselves encountering Christ in a way they never expected. Because they come to know HIm as the Divine Mercy this way. And much like the woman at the well, it comes in stages. Yet when completed it can also have the same effect her reconciliation had on others – thru her witness many came to Christ! This also happens for those whose lives are touched thru the process of seeking the annulment the Church offers one person for they have reach out to others for answers. It does happen all the time. It is a very good example of both the role of Priest and Prophet that Christ modeled for His Church and all mankind thru time. Those who work to reconcile persons to the Christ and His Church by being members of the Tribunal or assisting in other ways are also sharing in this dual role of both priest and prophet.
Geoffrey study the story of the woman at the well in John. It is there for a reason. You jokingly wished luck to those who have to talk to folks about their marriage situations, but it must be done. Christ did, so should we. Once a person has the correct responses learned regarding the teachings on marriage, a person should no longer fear sharing this part of the Good News and from John’s recording of the process, we can see it is God’s work and God’s will. And it is a process. Hope this helps you see it in a little different light. When the Church takes people thru this same process, we are repeating Christ’s conversations with the woman at the well in real time. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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I guess I must hve missed the bit where Jesus says ‘go get an annulment’ and ‘stop living with that fellow’ and ‘go thou to confession’? I suppose you have to put on those Catholic specs before you can see such legalese in the simple words of Jesus. Amazes me, but heck, there we go.
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Geoffrey, where in the Bible does it say to “mock the works of the Lord”? Can you find a verse that says “Go thou and make fun of all things Catholic and I will be with you until you’ve had your laughs”? Please locate this other verse you seem to be living by, “For all things Catholic aren’t mine and mine it is to do the will of Martin Luther, John Calvin and Joel Olsteen who have sent me to fulfill all they will”? Let me know where in the Bible I can find all this that you do and I’ll be happy to accept your Biblical way of life. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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If you read what Jesus had to say about those who bind extra laws on the people, it’s those parts. Jesus had limitless criticism for those who knew every letter of the law but not that its spirit was mercy and love. God alone knows why you bring in men I have as little to do with as your Pope. I follow the Bible, have these 75 years and will do until I die. Never needed but one mediator with God – Christ Jesus. Says so in your Bible too. Men build themselves power where they can, they bind the people with laws, they build palaces and they crucify the prophets; the old Israelites did it, and modern man does it. Me and mine, our house is with the Lord.
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Hello Geoffrey. A basic lesson in what an annulment actually is –
One Baptised man meets and marries one Baptised woman in church on a Saturday afternoon. They leave for the honeymoon and have a really good time. Upon returning they settle into their little home and live happily ever after! NOT! Life throws them a few curves and they lash out at each other and before ya know it, divorce seems the only solution. So they separate, go their separate ways and stew a few years. Then one decides to remarry someone else because things never worked out with spouse number one who they divorced a few years prior. That one goes out on a few dates and meets and falls in love with their new soulmate. They set a date and go to the parish for another church wedding. Not so fast, says the Pastor, you’re still married to spouse number one if she is still alive. The now not-so-happy couple look at each other and go “oh no, he’s divorced.” BINGO! The priest now knows they have no idea what the Sacrament actually is because they think an action in civil law effects actions of a ecclesial nature as if mere men can bind and loose Heaven by willing it! Poppycock!
Matrimony is a Sacrament. It cannot be given serially. One man, one woman till death do they part. It is more than a legal contract. It is a Sacrament instituted by God to impart grace to the two souls it touches as the say their vows. A declaration of nullity is given them if an investigation of the couple has been made and it is found that one or both of the parties to the Sacrament had an impediment and so NO SACRAMENT WAS THERE! It isn’t REMOVING the SACRAMENT nor changing to a different form. The Church has no power to do this. It can only declare that the grounds for the annulment are valid, and this means the parties though believing themselves married, actually aren’t and are now free to contract marriage with another.
There are many grounds for a declaration of nullity to be given. One easy example is age. Suppose your young man is only 14. Well, he has to be 16 before he can wed. If under investigation it is discovered that he was 15 and she was 12. They were too young to marry and so no Sacrament. That’s an easy one. Suppose they are related to each other, cousins but didn’t know it. (Don’t laugh at this one it happens. There are two persons who were unaware of their relations to each other and were pushed into marriage for advantage by the adults around them and when it was discovered, the Church declared their marriage null and they are Saints!) How about this one: she’s pregnant and he’s not happy but agrees to marry her to make it alright. Guess what? This means he didn’t give consent, so no Sacrament. The two factors they look for in the process is consent and capability. A person isn’t capable if they have a mental defect that prevents them from understanding what it is they are doing. Homosexuals who conceal this defect from the intended spouse are also incapable of marriage. If a man struggling to prove to himself he isn’t a homosexual marries to prove he’s not, there is no Sacrament because you cannot give consent under false pretense.
There’s more that I could tell you, but I hope this give you an idea of what we are actually talking about. But this is getting long and the Pope is about to arrive in Cuba and I need to watch, So gotta go.
God bless. Ginnyfree.
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You know, if your church spent half as long explaining this to those folks before they got married, they might not want to get divorced. If what you write is correct, I doubt one in a dozen catholic marriages would be valid. If your church does such a lousy job of preparation, how come it manages to make a song and dance about this end of it? Sounds to me as those those clibate fellows got the cart before the horse. Maybe, if like St Peter, they were married, they know what they were talking about.
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You tell em good brother Jeff. That legalistic religion of Mary. Putting burdens on mens backs that they themselves wouldn’t touch with their little finger.
Verily, they shall have their reward.
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Man have always sought to use what is good to advance their power. There was no Canon Lawyer among the Apostles, and if you’ve reached a stage where you need one, you’ve reached the wrong place.
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This is being judgemental Geoffrey: “If Jesus died for anything, it was for sinners, not the self-righteous” You might as well tell me I’m going straight to Hell without passing “Go” for having an opinion you can’t seem to see the sense in. Is that what you mean? I cannot be ‘saved’ because I think more about mercy than the Jesus prayer? Help me understand.
God bless. Ginnyfree.
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No, I send no one to hell, and my judgment on this stuff doesn’t matter a hill of beans. You’re already saved, and at the last, if you run the race, you will be with him in paradise that day. He said it, I think he meant it. We are forgiven, we’re free – amazing stuff. Now all we have to do is amend our lives and worship him. Doing that keeps me pretty occupied, and I suppose it does you too.
We’re all given to being judgmental, but fortunately, nothing stands or falls by our opinion. I stand in awe that God died for me, a sinner. I am saved, so are you. If we will persevere and run the good race to the end, then we shall meet him. If not, not, and not all the faith on our lips, and not all the Rosaries, or the Masses or the Communion service, not all of the holy water in the Jordan will save us.
I differ on this only I think. I am not frightened that emphasising God’s mercy will make folk think that there’s an easy way to heaven. No one who knows Jesus could ever think that, and no one who doesn’t would get it anyway 🙂
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Jesus knew all too well how we could get to Heaven. It cost Him His life.
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It did, so it isn’t going to take our life if we embrace him. He didn’t set up some complicated system where you need lawyers and theology degrees and the like, he came to be understood and embrace by us all.
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Jeffrey, I don’t think that the RC Church teaches that rosaries or holy water or even mass saves anyone (“not all the Rosaries, or the Masses or the Communion service, not all of the holy water in the Jordan will save us.”). My understanding is that these are ways for Catholics to do exactly what you just said: “If we will persevere and run the good race to the end, then we shall meet him.” Jesus alone saves and has saved us, just as you say, by his death on the cross. Use of holy water and praying rosaries and attending mass are ways of leading a holy life with a heart and mind for God. The saving part occurs at baptism and of course by Christ’s death on the cross. It is beneficial, in my opinion, to also follow the greatest commandment: to love God with all our hearts and minds and strength and love our neighbor as ourselves. I’ve probably said this poorly and I am guilty of gross over-simplification, I am aware. Just throwing in my two cents to quibble on that one point. 🙂
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Not a problem Zeke – whatever helps us run the race is fine with me 🙂
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“No, I send no one to hell, and my judgment on this stuff doesn’t matter a hill of beans. You’re already saved, and at the last, if you run the race, you will be with him in paradise that day.”
You sound like a preacher telling everyone that they are saved, when in reality if they dropped dead they would slide straight down to hell.
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You do not, and cannot know that, Bosco, and if you think you do, it is the sin of spiritual pride. The devil tests young Christians by making them feel they know what only God knows.
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Remember Bosco, God is the only just judge. Can you judge with the mond of God? No, me neither, so let us not fall into temptation, and pray that the Lord delivers us from the works of the evil one.
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Sorry good brother Jeff, the saved can tell another fellow saved, most of the time.
Have you ever smelled garlic on someone breath? You can safely say they ate garlic bread or some garlicy dish.
Now why would the spirit make us born again and keep us in the dark about who our fellow pilgrims are. Those who are on the outside looking in cant stand it that the saved think they have special knowledge. Those born again people are suppose to be blind and in the dark like we are.
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This is a delusion of the devil, Bosco, it is a sign of spiritual pride. The fruits of the Spirit are love, humility and charity; we accept that God alone can know for sure. We’re not sime branch of the Masons.
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being blind and in the dark is your idea of being in line with god? Being sure of salvation is of the devil? What religion do you belong to?
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The same one as Paul and the Apostles – not one of whom taught the false gospel you teach.
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the Last Judgement when He separates the sheep from the goats. We will rejoice on that great and terrible day to see the Justice of God
We? Rejoice?Not if one dies expecting some female deity to save you.
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Hello QVO! And pray tell what do you think of Pope Francis giving permission for the SSPX priests to hear Confessions for the year of mercy? I’d love to know. I thought of you as soon as I heard the news. Love to hear it. God bless. Ginnyfree.
Perhaps you could start a thread about it. I’d love to chew the fat a little with you on that score.
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Hello QVO. I was just now as I type watching the Holy Father in Cuba and his motorcade just drove past a group of people who singlefile in a stretch had their backs turned to the Holy Father. I’m guessing they may be SSPx’ers. Do ya think? Nastiness. That’s it, their protest was to simply turn their backs to him as he rode in his Pope-mobile past them. In that heat? Nuts in more way then one. Don’t suppose you saw it? Are you watching? God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Good sister ginny isn’t good enough to kiss His holiness ring. Only clergy can kiss his ring. The commoners have to kiss his feet.
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Well done good and faithful SSPX supporter. You’re very true to their point of view. Gentle reminder: the ONLY point of view that matters in jurisdiction is the Pope’s and if he says “No,” it is final. Basic problem for your friends in the SSPX. They don’t like to be told “No.” Are you gonna start a thread over it?
God bless. Ginnyfree.
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QVO, I’m well aware that the SSPX claims their jurisdiction is given them because there are extraordinary circumstances. However, the only way a priest without faculties can hear a confession and deliver licit absolution is in danger of imminent death, real, not imagined. Since those whose confessions they’ve heard over the years aren’t all dead, I can assume they’ve assumed a fictitious jurisdiction. In lay terms, if the penitent isn’t on their deathbed or the Muslims aren’t breaking down the doors to their chapel, then their suspension sticks. They never had any faculties, that is why the Pope had to give them and only for a year, the year of mercy. Hopefully the gesture will bring a few back to their senses. They’ve really gone too far and are in fact a church unto themselves. A real shame and a waste and I feel sorry for those seeking authenticity and reverence in the priesthood who are duped into their mess. Come back to Rome. The water’s fine. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Hello QVO. On the day a priest is ordained, he receives an envelope that isn’t allowed to be opened until after the Ordination rites have been completed. In it are two letters that are very official. One tells him of his assignment, the other gives him faculties to hear the confessions of the faithful. Both come to him thru his Bishop who has received his authority from the Holy See. Both of these letters are necessary for him to proceed in his vocation as a priest without sin. I will focus on the second though, since for you, it has the most significance. The permission to hear confession has to be obtained. It isn’t automatic. If a priest lacks this permission, he cannot hear confession except of a dying person. Only a Bishop who is in Communion with the Holy See that is visible, supplied and recognized can give this permission. To attempt to do so falsely is another ecclesial crime for which one MUST appeal to the Holy See for relief. Until this is done, the Bishop is under not only censure, but all his actions on behalf of the Church become tainted and useless and simply put, acts of defiance, disobedience. When JPII warned Lefebvre NOT to proceed with the consecration of 4 men, that began a process that made everything thing, and I do mean EVERYTHING, Lebfebvre did from that point on, illicit and as regards the Sacraments, sacrilegious. He proceeded to do what he wanted anyway. He willingly entered into a state of being an ecclesial criminal. Amongst other sins that lay upon his poor soul was the automatic excommunication he incurred by proceeding with the consecration of those four men. But that isn’t all of it. He was already suppressed and had been since 1975 and was appealing it to Rome which denied his appeal. Lefebvre in 1976 he was suspended ab ordinum collatione—from ordaining deacons and priests—and later a divinis—from all sacred functions, including saying Mass. He was as dead in sin as any priest can be.
Now back to the problem as you see it: If the newly ordained priest should proceed and hear confessions anyway, he is guilty of falsification and a few others things and commits the sin of sacrilege each and every time he hears a confession and greatly misleads those who come to him bearing their souls. They do so in good faith IF they aren’t aware of his lack, then they do receive valid absolution as long as the correct formula is observed even though it is an illicit Sacrament. IF however, as is the case with those who support SSPXer’s, they should know of this lack and go to the priest who has no faculties nor jurisdiction anyway, they become guilty as well of a few other sins, including the sin of material schism and depending upon how adamantly they insist on their points can also incur an automatic excommunication, in which case, none of their future confessions would be good at all until their stony hearts get turned to fleshy ones by conversion.
NONE of the deacons, priests or Bishops ordained and consecrated by Lefebvre after 1976 were done so licitly. NONE of them have the proper standing in which they can operate. NONE. NOT ONE! The ONLY end to the endless list of ecclesial crimes, penalties and sins that has occurred so far, is the lifting of the excommunication by Benedict and the recent permission given by Pope Francis. That’s it QVO, nothing else. All the rest remains and has been multiplied over and over. The illusion of a supplied jurisdiction is just that and remains an illusion like a mirage in the desert, the closer you try to get to it the further away it moves. You’ve been very thirsty QVO, please leave all that nonsense behind and come home to Rome fully and don’t delay. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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QVO, the claim of an extraordinary need for jurisdiction has been addressed by me. It is an illusion made by the words of Lefebvre. His are the only words that are raised in an emergency to supply jurisdiction. His own words condemn him – he was about the business of saving the Mass by disobeying the Pope and deliberately breaking Communion with him and all the rest of us in Communion with him, the Holy Father. There was no emergency, nor is there, nor will there be. The only extraordinary event that can supply jurisdiction AND faculties to a priest not permitted to hear a confession is impending death of the penitent or penitents as in the case of war in its theatre. None of these extraordinary events apply. Lefebvre was suspended from even celebrating Mass in 1976! That is long before the ordinational events or the consecration of the men in 1988. He simply acted as if there were no impediments to his ministry at all. Yet, in canon law every act from that point forward, the suspension a divinis, was a sacrilege as well as an act of defiance and a further breach in Communion with the Holy See and the rest of the Church and that means all of us here, the living as well as those in the Church Triumphant and Suffering. Cut off by his own actions.
Sacrilege QVO, actual and with full knowledge and consent. Mortal sin upon mortal sin.
I follow a spotless unblemished Lamb who knew no sin and keeps His Bride close to Himself, nourishing her from His very own wounded and sacred side. I am not confused by any legalese that is used to cloud the issues. The innocent have no need of such elaborate defenses. That is a really big clue about the whole mess for the simple and those with the wisdom that comes from simplicity. The innocent need no defense. Obedience speaks for itself and is the simplest of all wisdoms.
I am proud to be a supporter both spiritually and financially of the FSSP. There’s is the true witness to love of all that is tradition in our heritage as a people of God serving Him in our Sacred Rites. These are those who serve the same Lamb and follow where He leads in all they do. They left because He doesn’t lead anyone into open rebellion and schism over the proper use of incense.
I hope the love of Christ leads you away from all that prideful deception to the Sacred Heart of Jesus and His wounded side. If you quiet the rebellion inside, you will hear the beat of His Heart and He will heal you. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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P.S. I think my use of the mirage in the desert as an image for the sanctity these men claim to protect and project as well as their innocence is very appropriate. Think about it. It appears as a vast lake in a desert wasteland, yet as you try to draw its waters, you die of thirst in pursuit of it refreshment. It is an illusion and nothing more.
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aLL the legalities of confession. jesus spoke of little else.
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