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As a follow-up to yesterday’s post about abortion, I want to report on a conversation I had recently with my youngest daughter, as it enlightened me, and may do others. I’ll not go into any personal detail, but it will help the reader to know she’s recently turned 30 and was, in her own words, ‘determined to find her own way.’ She was the one of our children who dropped out of church-going and went away from the faith entirely; she’s recently come back to live near us, and has found her faith again. This is a great joy to Mrs and myself. Seeing the news about the Planned Parenthood scandal, and knowing my views, she talked to me about it, and what she said opened my eyes to the way her generation think about these things.
We’ve a good relationship and can talk pretty frankly (she’s her father’s daughter there alright!). She explained to me that for her and her friends, sex was primarily seen as a recreational activity. To my response that if they didn’t want babies they could use contraception (even though I don’t agree with it), she said it wasn’t that simple. Most boys don’t like using male contraception, and the pill is unreliable and often has to be changed; abstinence was not on the cards she said. I asked why, and she said largely because of boys. If girls refuse that kind of contact, they get reputations as being frigid or being lesbians, with, she said, other girls being particularly severe on their contemporaries who abstain. So much, I said, for liberation then; she agreed, but said that was the way it was. That, she said, was why people of her generation saw abortion the way most of them did; she did a quick calculation and said that of her ten best friends, seven of them had abortions – all of them for reasons of ‘convenience’. It was, she said, seen simply as another form of contraception.
That seemed, to me, to sum up pretty much what those of us who have always been against contraception on Christian grounds had feared. It corrodes a sense of respect for women, it corrodes their self-respect, it frees up men’s worst instincts without providing anything in the way of a curb on them, and it cheapens the value placed on human life. It creates a mentality where a baby is a ‘problem’ and not a blessing. But, as she said to me, in a society where, to afford a house, both parties in a relationship have to work, it’s not easy for one to drop out for a while, and child care is expensive and not easy to come by if you go back to work. ‘That, Dad’, she said, ‘is the reality as most of my friends see it. Thanks to you and Mum, even at my wildest I saw it could be another way, but most don’t.’ As she pointed out, she’d had a Christian upbringing, and she knew what was wrong and what wasn’t, and had ‘something to come back to’ – most folk don’t and they don’t, as it were.
Against that backdrop I could see very clearly the nature of the challenge – but the answer to it eludes me – save more prayer and evangelisation.
Whatever the answer is, it would have to be centered on the women of our society. Young men behave and are formed in their relationships with women by the ‘norm’ that the women in their lives create. Values such as respect and the virtue of chastity is not simply taught at home to little girls but as a peer to peer expectation . . . and this last has failed as miserably as has our societies marriages. There is an expectation by all these days that they are in charge of their lives and that whatever they get themselves into there is a way out. And they leave a marriage as soon as a problem occurs and have sex as easily as shaking someone’s hand. Pregnant? There is the morning after abortifacient or abortion. Their options, we didn’t have, and morally couldn’t uphold, are as second-nature to them as hand-held electronics. If you reform the female (redefining feminism in the traditional sense) the men will conform and learn how to become men. At least that is my first thought on this.
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Yes I am afraid there is a great work needs doing
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Well, I am focused on the fact that we must work with God has instilled in the natures of men and women. The rebellion against our nature has done great violence to these gifts. The nurture instinct of a woman is being denied and even discouraged largely. It is that facet of the character of a woman that leads women to a desire for a monagamous relationship where a stable situation for the rearing of a family is possible. Men, who have a more basic drive for conquest and for being found worthy of the love a good woman is also being compromised . . . and have a distorted view of success in bedding a woman is the same as the success of winning a partner for life. The man will respond if the woman initiates a change to the relationship dynamic. For they have no other option but to follow or fail in that which drives much of what they do life.
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I agree, my friend. But we need to note that business has been at the forefront of wanting women in the workplace. I don’t see our consumerist system as an ally here at all.
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It surely isn’t Geoffrey. However, I am more worried as to the indicators of what is the ‘new normal’ in relationships; especially what should be relationships for life. The movie idols and the pop music idols and even the steady barrage of sleazy television sitcoms are forging images in the minds of the youth that become fulfilled prophecy. These kids think that this is what being a grownup is and they are deceived constantly. They learn these things in sex-ed in school and the lads are happy to be able to expect sex on a casual date and it is proving all too true. We must boycott this type of exposure of our kids; fight the school boards, boycott movies, stop watching all the sleaze being produced on television and monitor the types of people our kids listen to on the music scene and hold as role models. We must replace these with wholesome, family stregthening role models and change the dynamic.
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The problem is who is the ‘we’ here? Those who make movies and TV seem obsessed with this stuff and pump it out ad nauseam. It probably helped with us that we had no TV. but now they can get all this stuff on the internet on demand, I’ve no idea how ro stop the tide of filth.
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Good point: not much left to do except go off the grid.and I think that this idea is becoming more and more reasonable.
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Well, cutting off the supply of highly objectifying and degrading porn being piped into every teenage boy’s cell phone at the speed of light should probably make its way on to our to-do list as well…
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Fully agree with that. We have effectively degraded both sexes by such a utilitarian view of the human anatomy as a vehicle of pleasure and nothing more..
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Yup, that’s exactly what female friends of mine in that age group say, albeit more there than here (pretty small sample size, though). Sad that in trying to give self-respect, we’ve pretty much destroyed it.
If you’d ever used male contraception, you’d know she’s tight, in addition, girls don’t like it any more than guys. That said, it’s the only form that offers protection from disease..But US figures indicate the pill (if you guys use the same one) to be 91-99% + effective if taken properly, Hardly unreliable. but facts matter less here than what the young’uns believe, and you got, I believe, the straight story.
The answers, if there are any, are I think generational, and have more to do with respecting oneself. But I don’t know how we do that either.
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I agree Neo
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Ya know, as one whose Godlessly debaucherous youth included much in the way of ‘recreational’ sex, I’ve just got to say: If male contraception presents that much of an obstacle to the pleasure of you and/or your partner, y’all are doing it wrong.
😉
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Ha! It didn’t say it ruined it, but it’s better without. I don’t think this is likely the place to compare debaucheries though, I got some of them myself, and they were pretty Godless, as well. Not to mention rather drunken. 🙂
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This post has provoked some thought in my head, and probably sparked some tangents as well. It is probably fair to say that QVO and I are the youngest regular contributors here. But neither of us is exactly typical of our age-group in general outline. Nevertheless, we are not complete aliens either. Much comes down to trust. The fact of the matter is that we have quite different values from our parents on various points.
My advice is to support the younger evangelists in their work. It is difficult to trust people who are from “the outside”. Paul became like the Gentiles in order to preach to the Gentiles. There’s really too much here to deal with in a single comment, but I touched on this in my post about persona.
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Thank you Nicholas – as you say, not one with any easy answers
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For me, a major part of the answer which Dave smith strongly advocates, is in Catholic families, a strong Catechesis.
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Yes, which would be in line with Proverbs. Unfortunately a lot of us can’t speak to that as we weren’t raised Christian, though we would endeavour to follow that principle if we had children of our own.
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I should have added that in ones senior year in Catholic HS a solid year of apologetics. Unfortunately, this is not usually available at the Parish level for those attending Public HS.
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My daughter tells me that ‘convent girls’ are notorious for reacting against the constraints.
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God bless you Geoffrey. Your prodigal daughter has returned, let the feast begin. I have a granddaughter, that is 23, that I would like to hogtie, drag home, and if need be lock in the attic until she comes to her senses. But we can’t do that. All we can do is love them, pray, and hope she knows she can come to us at anytime. And you have done that, God bless you.
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I feel for you Steve. We can only hope and pray that the values we instilled will win out – I shall pray for your daughter
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In the Mass that Chalcedon posted for us this morning, the assisted dying bill in the UK is mentioned and the congregants are urged to contact their MPs. I certainly agree. In the course of that he refers to it a part of ‘the culture of death’ which is certainly so. But so is this, not only of the baby but also emotionally of the mother.
I don’t often place links here because primarily we try to sort these things out for ourselves, with God’s help. And that is the correct methodology, I think.but sometimes there are articles that are so on point that they need to be included. this, from “The Federalist” is one of them.
http://thefederalist.com/2015/08/25/why-pro-abortion-men-are-anti-woman/
I want you to read it and think about it, so I’m only going to give one quote from it>
“”A male activist advocating for universal abortion on demand at a UN conference some 20 years ago best summed up the purpose behind abortion when he said:
“Let’s stop fooling around here. What we’re talking about is our right to f-ck whoever we want, however we want, whenever we want.””
That about sums up the entire debate.
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Aye, that’s about it, Neo
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Nor would it hurt to note that WordPress did a good job with the related article (as it often does) Yours and Jessica’s are both directly on point, as are the articles linked in them.
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I never noticed the related articles listed at the end of each blog post so thank you for pointing that out, Neo.
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No problem, Zeke. they often amplify and add voices to what we are discussing. I follow them often.
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My only contribution to the discussion is that a solution, to my mind, is a strong unwavering culture based on marriage of one man and one woman. Of course we see how marriage has been systematically dismantled of any true meaning in our day. In the “old days” marriages stuck through thick and thin, and now old timers like me are laughed at for being hopelessly behind the times and “on the wrong side of history” for even bringing the subject up. Excuses are given for further degradation of marriage (“Look at the sky rocketing rate of divorce among heterosexuals”( which supposed support and justifies same-sex marriage, and this to the point that one wonders if the institution has any relevance in our modern “culture”…and I hesitate to use the word “culture”, I’m really not sure what it is we are living in right now.
What I see among my sons and their friends (who are now the parents of high school and college age young adults) are parents who feel their first obligation is to provide their children with birth control and “wise advice” about sex, as it is presumed that an active sex life is inevitable. These parents may give a bit of lip service to the ideal of marriage, but the “culture” around us tells these young adults that marriage is all about the party and the money received as gifts, and when that wears off, well, then its off to the next narcissistic pursuit. Oh well, I’m making myself depressed. This really is a topic that makes me weep and I’m not ashamed to admit it.
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It is a cause for weeping, Zeke. But I wonder how long this situation can really endure?
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As long as we let it, perhaps?
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Well, that I don’t know. I read somewhere (maybe at this blog) that we won’t be able to put the genie back in the bottle once we’ve let it out, and that certainly seems to be true. I imagine that there will eventually be a reaction against the chaos we’ve unleashed and some movement back toward traditional values might have a resurgence. That is my hope and prayer anyway.
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Mine too, Zeke. These excesses have a habit in history of burning themselves out. The era before the Victorians was one of great license.
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