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Over on the Newmanlectures website, we have been exploring the English Catholic tradition. The Reformation was a national trauma, but it did not erase the Catholic Church in England; and there are those of us who would contend that Catholicism was not confined to those Catholics who continued to own allegiance to the Pope. I choose that form of words with care. I am not asserting there was more than one Catholic Church, but I am suggesting that the Catholic tradition was not confined to one place. There were always bishops and priests in the Church of England who believed that Christ was really present in the Eucharist, and who held all the the Church had always held – the one exception being the position of the Bishop of Rome. In this sense, the position of the Anglican Church was rather similar to those of the Orthodox Churches of the East. Reference to what the Ancient Church had held was their rule, rather than reference to the Reformers.
When it came to considering the doctrines of salvation, it was to the Creeds and the sacraments, not simply ‘faith by justification’ to which these Anglicans looked; repeantance and confession remained part of their pattern of faith; the sacrmanets were not merely symbols in the sense of not meaning anything beyond what they appeared to be, they were part of life in Christ, and they conferred Grace. They saw their Church as part of the universal Church, but, like the Eastern Churches, a branch and not a separated Church. That, of course, was not the view from Rome. But there is a difference between ecclesiology and spiritual life, and in terms of their spiritual life, men such as Lancelot Andrewes (1555-1626), George Herbert (1593-1633), like Keble, Newman and Pusey were always thoroughly Catholic, even though of that goodly number, only Newman felt the need to cross the Tiber.
That Catholic tradition continued into modern times, with men such as Charles Gore and Michael Ramsey. It was the one which nurtured me as a young man, and indeed, into adulthood. For many of us, the decision by the Church of England to ordain women as priests was the occasion, if not the cause, for us crossing the Tiber. I say that because in many ways it was not so much the straw which broke the camel’s back, more the outward and visible sign of an inward determination to pursue a vision of a Church which would adapt to the times even on matters where it would widen the divide with our Orthodox and Roman brethren.
In 2011, Pope Benedict XVI announced the creation of the Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham which made pastoral provision for Catholic Anglicans to cross the Tiber together, and in a way that allowed them to retain their Anglo-Catholic patrimony. It was one of many signs of what a great Pope he was. The Ordinariate recently launched an initiative, ‘Called to be holy‘ which emphasises that heritage and shares it with the rest of the Christian world. The Novena is one I have taken to praying, and found to be most beneficial.
Blessed John Henry Newman, pray for us.
“In 2011, Pope Benedict XVI announced the creation of the Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham which made pastoral provision for Catholic Anglicans to cross the Tiber together, and in a way that allowed them to retain their Anglo-Catholic patrimony.
I did not quite understand the bit above is it meant to say that an Anglican vicar and his church can convert to RC as a whole community and continue as an RC Church?”
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Yes, that is right, Rob.
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The Vicar can convert, and even take his flock. He can’t keep the church building.
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And in many cases, would be wise to abandon it if he could. Mind you, round here, the CofE is flogging them off to nighclub owners, so when it refuses them to the Ordinariate, but lets them go in that direction, there’s a nastiness which seems unnecessary. Not as though it was using them itself 🙂
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As an aside BBC World news last night said that about 1/3 of UK night clubs had closed in the last couple of years.
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Good. It seems a move in the right direction.
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I thought you might say good – but the reason was they are choosing to attend bigger rock festival events. Not necessarily good although it does remove trouble from our inner cities at closing time.
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One might also consider it nastiness to announce the Ordinariate without bothering to tell anyone at Lambeth Palace about it.
Fortunately for me the best of Anglicanism remains where it has always been.
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It would certainly have been courteous. The Catholic tradition in Anglicanism happily continues.
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Its interesting that the Anglican parish that came into the RC here in Columbia, SC looks, and feels more like the Traditional Mass than any Mass that is done by priests who have been formed in the seminaries. they say the Mass ad orientem, have adult male servers (1 or 2), the people receive kneeling and on the tongue at the altar rail only from the hands of the priest. They do give communion under both forms but the priest is the only one that touches the chalice; tipping it until a drop of the precious blood is on their lips. So I welcome these parishes if they are of the same caliber.
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The ones I know here are just the same. This was one reason some of the Catholic bishops were not too keen on the idea – a group of traditionalists entering the Church – what next?!
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Indeed so, and the Deanery here in the Midlands treated the priest like a pariah. He has quit attending any functions with them. Its really very sad. They left for the same reason that you did: the ordaining of women priestesses.
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Doesn’t surprise me. Anglo-Catholics did not have the NO, or all the nonsense enacted in the ‘spirit’ of Vatican II.
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Quite right. Had it been up to the Bishop here it would never have happened. But the Vatican in their wisdom set a single Bishop in charge of all conversions of the Anglican Communities and therefore they had to be accepted. The parish is rightly concerned as to what will be their fate once their parish priest retires or passes away. For there is a real chance that the parish may eventually be closed.
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Yes, this is the fear here, too. My nearest one would be an hour’s drive, and they only do one Mass every month.
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That is sad. I wish them luck. They are brave men to make the jump and face a lot of resistance.
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They are indeed.
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This has been true for some time. A/Cs who I have spoken to who have turned to Rome find it very much not what they are used to, and not really easy to get used to.
The grass is not always greener over that particular fence.
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It isn’t about green grass. If one is convinced that the Pope is patriarch of the West and one needs, to be in the true church, to be in communion with him, a little discomfort is nothing – as Bl JHN said 😄
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Feel free to consider that view of the Pope as the green grass. 🙂
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Well, the church in this country used to believe it before it was forced to take another view. I think the uncoerced view the longer one.
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+The Anglican priests aren’t stupid. They see the protection is much better in the catholic church.
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Miscellany mostly, In many ways, these Ordinariates (in the States there is also a Lutheran one) are perhaps the best of us all.
On a lighter note, one evening I was wandering about the internet and ended up reading reviews of the Shrine, likely on TripAdvisor, but I don’t really remember. Somebody asked the reviewer about the service, what it was like, and so forth. His answer was classic, “This is Walsingham, happy-clappy does not exist, full-on bells and smells, in the old manner.” Yes, some of the non-religious were both mystified and put off, many more were entranced, and enthralled.
In any case as I studied to join my current church, I felt as if I had come home, this is much what I was taught: the Christianity of Luther and Melancthon. As I got familiar with the ELCA, I began to see how corrupted it had become, and my interest began to wane. not least by the radical reformers, such as Calvin.
But when I came here, I found the community that had cleared the path I followed, and as I looked around I found I was no Lutheran pioneer either, that path had been trod by the LCMS, and perhaps even more by the Confessional Lutheran Church, not that any proper Lutheran ever doubted the need for confession, and repentance. Because, the LCMS and CLC also owe much to Oxford, and specifically those who didn’t feel the need to cross the Tiber.
As Jess said to me just this weekend, the only real difference between many of us here, is the status of the Pope. In nearly everything else, we are the same.
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NEO, for many that’s a big piece.
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I recognize that, David, nor do I minimize it. I also recognize it as the cause of much or the RCCs current problems. Where by recognizing him as an important, eminent authority, without dictatorial authority, using a good bit of the East’s wisdom, we can get on with the mission, instead of arguing internal matters.
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There were many signs under Benedict that he was willing to think constructively about what could be done here.
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There were indeed, some that got done, and some that did not.
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The problem is probably mainly outside Rome. If Rome agreed to something, the rest of the RCC goes with it. There is no such person in Orthodoxy, Lutheranism or Anglicanism, that was why the Ordinariate idea was such a brilliant one – it allows for groups to come over together. Had there been one in my area, I’d have gone with it like a shot. It is harder to do it alone – and there are benefits to that, of course, but also disbenefits!
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I agree, and yet like the common law, that (lack of) structure, is both a strength and a weakness sometimes simultaneously. It is inherently (small ‘c’) conservative in that we never have the sudden shifts that Rome seems to, but it is very hard for us organizationally to turn around. The Ordinariates are, I think, simply brilliant.
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Yes, I agree on both counts. I don’t see anything much coming from professional ecumenism, except, I would hope, a lessening of tensions and suspicions – a bit like AATW – without Bosco!
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If it can do that much, I’ll be both pleased and surprised. I note that where they exist at all, most of the ones that accomplish anything at all, are like talking to like. For instance:
LCMS/RCC/Anglo-Catholic, and ELCA/ European mainstream Lutherans/ Anglicans.
The rest tend to denigrate into us/them, often with Boscos of their own.
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Yup, that’s true enough.
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Here’s a multi-level chuckle on topic. Sound quite familiar doesn’t it? 🙂
https://jessicahof.wordpress.com/2013/06/28/talking/
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Oh that is priceless!
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I don’t think I ever heard her so frustrated as that night! 🙂
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I’d forgotten how funny she could be – that really is very good satire indeed.
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It really is, you can flat here them at it.!
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“The rest tend to denigrate into us/them, often with Boscos of their own.”
T don’t think that is true of ‘the rest’ or even ‘the majority of the rest’.
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I could be wrong, Rob, but that’s what I’ve seen. What else has worked?
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My point was not about any particular organisation but rather that the majority of Christian I have known throughout my life do not “ tend to denigrate into us/them“ or have the attitude of Bosco.
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Really? he was on my church council, let alone the evangelization committee. Not all, by any means, but many.
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Yes, I meant to write own, and will correct it. That said, I do not think that one has to go back very far. Indeed, the churches I attended as a youngster used the old Breviary and were far more Catholic in their style of worship, and in theology, than many NO Catholic churches – including my own one now.
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I am sorry to see you do not agree with the teaching of the Church on this.
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Since the Anglicans decided in the 1960s it was not necessary to sign up to the 39 Articles, and since the Church does not advise us to hate the C of E, I am unsure what points you think you are making?
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Yes, it was the 1968 Lambeth Conference, if memory serves.
I take the view the Catholic Church takes on Anglicanism – what do you do?
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You find me where the Church says we should take the attitude you recommend.
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No, that is your personal misapplication – you and Bosco have that in common. Do read Dominus Iesus, or Lumen Gentium – and leave off imagining you are better qualified than the Magisterium on such matters.
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By all means ignore what the Church teaches. One day you will mention something not to do with hating someone.
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I am saying I agree with what the Church teaches in Dominus Iesus and Lumen Gentuim. Who, apart from yourself, says Anglicanism is evil and we should hate it?
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Still with the DIY theology I see. I joined the Catholic Church, as you did. I follow its teaching on this, do you?
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Yes, I do, because that is what it is. The teaching if the Church is clear. You seem not to be aware of it, or, if you are, not to agree. That makes you disobedient – something of a habit with you. Try to cure it.
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They are not required to swear to them – and are free to interoret them as JHN did in Tract CX
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Again, your personal opinion and that of some bigoted anti-Catholic Anglican bishops. You are welcome to such company.
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Clearly he, like myself, came to the conclusion that staying in the CofE was untenable. That does not mean every Catholic Anglican has to agree with us.
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Converts convert. They are not required to hate their old Church. You say so, the Church does not say so, you are not the Church therefore no one has to do as you say. QED.
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You were not required to ‘hate’ either. You made that up yourself. You are wrong, you have a poor grasp of rhis, as you have of your temper and the teaching of the Church. So yes, time for you to go away.
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Personally, I follow the teaching of the Church. Whose teaching do you follow?
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Who was advocating praising Anglicanism? No one.
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Newman knew that his dirty little secret will be safe in the catholic church.
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Let us see, you have seen some salacious stories in the press, I, and many others, have spent years working with Newman’s papers and those of his contemporaries; we say there is no evidence of active homosexuality, you do. I wonder who people should believe, the know-nothing liar, or those of us who have worked on the subject? A hard one Bosco. You know, the odd thing is, if you are right, not one of Newman’s many enemeies ever accused him of being homosexual, something which, had it been true would have destroyed him. Is your grubby obsession with this subject because you are repressed?
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Hmmm. How interesting.
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Oh that’s just starters, see his reply to me today and the comments.
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I have seen a few.
If the intention is to frighten Anglicans into immediate conversion to Rome, then I must say the actual effect is the complete opposite, for me at least. 🙂
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Me too 😄
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My journey into the Church was an odd one because I had intended to become Catholic and accidentally became an Anglican. After considerable thought on the matter, and discussions with the Head of Fine Art at the Central School of Art, Patrick Reyntiens, who was a Catholic, I went to Westminster Catholic Library to get information on Catholic retreats, with the intention of reflecting on my journey ready for the next stage of preparation and baptism. The library was run by the Friars of the Atonement at that time. I explained to the friar at the desk what I needed advice on. He just passed me a copy of something called “The Good Retreat Guide” or something and let me get on with it, without any further help.
I ended up at the contemplative monastery of the Community of Servants of the Will of God in Sussex and after a week there was recommended to a parish church in Stroud Green, London, near to where I lived. Within a week I had been given the job of sacristan and I prepared to be received into the Church and baptised the following Easter. There was a photograph of Pope John Paul II in the vestry, and we said a prayer for the pope before processing out for the Sunday Mass.
It took me quite a while before I realized I had become an Anglican.
Oh, and the Franciscan Friars of the Atonement: what is their role? Evangelisation, apparently.
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Amazing!
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Hilarious!
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Say ‘Hi’ to the Catholic Bosco, Gareth. he makes just as much sense, but is less fun than the original. The Anglican one shows up on mine, the Lutheran one hasn’t appeared yet, but I’m sure he will.
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Yes, I prefer the real Bosco to the Catholic one. At least he wears ill-fitting clown clothes and farts before falling over.
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I am talking about a very long time ago, and have since been a Catholic for more than twenty years. Lighten up!
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That’s quite all right. For your information, as a Catholic I spent a number of years testing my vocation to religious life as a member of a charismatic community in France, then as a Franciscan and for a short time in the Carthusians; and then a year in seminary in Rome testing my vocation to the priesthood. If after that, I still didn’t get anywhere, I think that God was trying to tell me something, and I did at least look deeper than photos of the Pope on the wall.
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