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Trans-Racism
Yes, I’m coming out of the closet. I am actually a Chinese man trapped in a white caucasian body. This is a genetic mixup and though objectively I may look white to those who meet me, I am actually an oriental man struggling with my identity by some unknown genetic mixup.
Nobody knows how devastating it is for me to suffer this malady and I demand the same rights as Bruce Jenner, Bradley Manning and others to have the necessary operations and treatments that are necessary to alleviate this condition and return me to my proper role, stolen from me at birth. Hang the cost and don’t try to use common sense about this either. For only I who am experiencing this malady is qualified to comment upon it. Why else would I crave egg rolls?
But I am not selfish. I am also on a quest to shine the light on other injustices within our society as well. This brings me to the condition of Trans-Personism.
Trans-Personism
Do you know how many of our brothers and sisters have been locked away in psychiatric wards simply because they suffer from trans-personism? Yes, many thousands who think they are Santa, Joan of Arc, Jesus, Hitler, Satan, the Easter Bunny, and Elmer Fudd are wasting away while we do nothing to alleviate their suffering and pain. It is cruel and unusual punishment and we should end this incarceration as soon as possible. If they know deep inside that they are one of these other people it is not their fault that they were born looking nothing like them; it is a freak of nature after all. Again, it is our duty and it is their right that they get the medical aid and treatments necessary to transform them into the persons that they know they truly are. Incarceration of such people is inhumane to say the least.
And what about those people who suffer from Trans-Specieism?
Trans-Specieism
This is the awful situation that we see at many of the piercing shops where these poor souls are spending all of their own money to transform themselves into aliens from another planet, crocodiles, wolves or vampires and so forth. Imagine their depression having been born into a human body when deep down they are certain that this is not who they really are. Enough said . . . I think you get my point. We owe it to these poor unfortunates to find happiness in their life so that they too can find fulfillment for the true person that resides inside and struggles with their identity.
I know of what they suffer. Recently a wolf in a man’s body was arrested for heisting his leg on a fire hydrant in public and was subjected to great embarrassment and humiliation by being arrested. If they want such things to be done privately then every public restroom should be equipped with a fire hydrant or at least a nice sized tree or bush. Its a fundamental question of tolerance and accessibility for Pete’s sake.
We have made some good progress lately in our battle against intolerance but I hope that by this writing you will see that we have much more work to do before we become the tolerant nation that we aspire to be. Please support me in my effort to get out the word and make this world a better place for all of us. Let us end, once an for all, this prejudicial ignorance that still prevails in our society.
I want to laugh, really I do, and any time until maybe 10 years ago, it would have been too preposterous to even be laughable, and now, it’s not funny because if it isn’t true, it will be in a year or two.
Something else all these have in common. Almost invariably they want us to approve their beliefs/sickness, and they want us to do whatever they want with our money (read taxes). Personally, I don’t care very much what they do to themselves (or their souls) that’s up to them. But what I pay for and what my church accepts, that is my lookout, and a clear line to be drawn, if (I suppose) our churches are still Christian, rather than neo-pagan
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Well, as famous Chinese philosopher, Confusion, once said: “A person of two minds lives in a veritable mind field.”
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Indeed he does. 🙂
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Hello SF. I think I’m going to ask my Pastor to put this in our bulletin. You’ve been listening to too much Al Kresta. Can I interest you in a few dumplings instead of the egg roll? They’re nice with that yummy sauce they give you to dip them in. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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I always wanted to be the guy in the head of the dragon during the festival for the New Year. And yes, dumplings are a favorite as are some lovely spring rolls . . . a favorite of Meow C. Tongue.
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Okay SF. How much Saki have you had so far this morning?
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You mean Chinese orange juice?
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Perhaps your pastor would rather publish something that is more pertinent to the SCOTUS decision we are waiting for on SSM. https://servusfidelis.wordpress.com/2012/08/01/the-emperors-new-dog/
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Oh Hello SD. I didn’t know you had a blog. Cute place. Might visit again. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Yes I am taking the advice of the great horticulturalist Wong Fat and letting the blog have a time of lying fallow. It should help any future crops.
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Flicka thinks he is a girl. But I don’t care. We still argue about who gets to wear the wedding dress.
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Why argue? You both can have a wedding dress. This is the 21st century for crying out loud.
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My joy is complete. Ive found a cute little Anglican chapel in Ireland that will marry us. Youre all invited.
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I’ll be the guy arriving by coolie.
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that sounds wonderful. Do you think we can fit Flicka in the basket?
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I don’t think they make them that big. I thought you’d arrive in a limo anyway.
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I’m happy for you both Bosco. What colors will the Bride’s maids wear?
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Oh gosh, we haven’t even thought of that yet. We don’t have any brides maids yet. but if we do, I guess they will be naked.
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A link to sooth your longing until the Medics can do their work SF: http://www.wikihow.com/Serve-and-Drink-Sake
God bless. Ginnyfree.
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What do they know. When I was in Japan I had it the way they make it and then I went up to my room with some friends and we drank a few more bottles straight up. The more you drink the better it tastes.
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The more I drink, the better Flicka looks. But don’t tell him that. It would break his heart.
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I’m sure the feeling is mutual, Bosco.
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I pray for the strength to be able to stand the ground as did John Fisher and Thomas More before us.`
Thomas More is famous for strapping bible believers to the rack and tearing them apart, in London.
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It would make a great climax to your wedding. I think you should go for being drawn and quartered as part of the ceremony.
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Gosh. Im not sure about that. it would put a damper on our wedding nite.
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You should think about the guests rather than yourself.
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We have a water trough and a few bails of hay for the guests.
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I’ll bring my axe! It will match my dress.
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I prefer you be naked.
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Bosco, I’m an older woman. They pay me to keep my clothes on!
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An old doll eh? Well, we can find some where to put you.
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Only if you believe the BS about him that’s out there.
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James Bainham was burned at the stake in 1532, we know his crime was heresy, we know his chief prosecutor was Henry VIII’s Lord Chancellor Thomas More, who pursued the case with personal zeal. What we see now in Raqqa was once life in England –
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/culturehousedaily/2015/02/like-isis-thomas-more-believed-passionately-in-burning-people-alive/
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What neither group ever seems keen to acknowledge is that Sir Thomas was also a man who so abhorred Martin Luther’s Protestant Reformation that he burned Lutherans at the stake with great relish. One of More’s motives for hating the Protestant heretics was that they dared to read the New Testament in English rather than Latin, which was against the law in England at the time.
The historian and religious scholar James Wood reminds us that Thomas More, far from being the consummate “man of conscience,” was
…the heretic hunter of the mid-1520s, who personally broke into Lutherans’ homes and sent men to the stake, … [and who] would punish religious dissent not only with “displeasant” words but with state violence.

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The CC just now in 1963, took the bible off its list of banned books. The priest hold up the bible or what ever, and kisses it during the show. But millions were burned alive for owning that book by his own cult.
The good news is that Jesus stands at your door.
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“In this period also, the first decrees about the reading of various translations of the Bible were called forth by the abuses of the Waldenses and Albigensians. What these decrees (e.g., of the synod of Toulouse in 1129, Tarragona in 1234, Oxford in 1408) aimed at was the restriction of Bible-reading in the vernacular. A general prohibition was never in existence.” __ Catholic Encyclopedia
Get your facts straight, Bosco. Only certain, faulty translations were ever banned.
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We burned MILLIONS??? Gee, and I missed the barbecue. I could’ve brought the marshmellows for dessert.
Bosco. You’ve got faulty numbers. We actually have records of who we roasted, tortured, imprisoned or set free. They are in the Vatican and must be maintained. Yeppers. The Dept. of Corrections for God’s Church was very busy at times. I should still be a very busy place. I needs to get busy. There are plenty who need correction. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Hello my dear little Bosco. “Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ”
Guess who said that? St. Jerome some 1500 plus years ago. Doctor of the Church, BTW. So if the Church herself said that ignorance of Scriptures is ignorance of God, how is it we banned Scripture? Truth is we didn’t. We wrote the book Bosco and we preserved the Book Bosco, so you could have it today. If you love your Bible thank the Church for it. If it wasn’t for us, you wouldn’t have it today.
Now, say “thank you,” Bosco dear. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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‘Just now in 1963’, eh Bosco. Hate to tell you, but it is 2015 ‘just now’. Yes, More, like American statesmen during the Cold War with Communism, dealt with enemies of the State the way the law prescribed. I can see with your faulty sense of time you may not realise that the 1520s and 2015 are not the same, but the principle More stood by then, remains today – things thought harmful to the State have to be stopped. Coming from one of the few civilized countries which still kills its prisoners, Bosco, I’m surprised at your wimpishness.
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I see you went to http://moralcompassblog.com/2013/04/11/thomas-more-inquisitor-torturer-killer-saint/ Pity you didn’t read and publish the whole truth like the comments at the end of the article.
You’re reverting to type St. Bisto, only printing that part that supports your weird and wacky belief system.
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More took his orders from the Vatican. Bibles in English were forbidden, punishable by burning. I don’t care if it was the law of the land. The bottom line is….the religion that banned the bible is still here, and people still love it. So, what else is wrong with this religion?
The good news is, one can still get saved, even if one is in a religion.
!963 was just around the corner compared to 1227 when the wonderful CC first banned the bible. The church that Christ founded. Do you know what its like to be burned alive?
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As SF has told you (and as I have) what was banned were bad translations of the the Bible. What was punishable by burning was breaking the law, and you could only be burnt after a trial – just as, I gather, in parts of the USA, you can only be executed after a trial. I didn’t realise you were such a wimp, Bosco. The bottom line is that the Church Jesus founded on the Rock (as he renamed Simon) is still here, and, despite the gibbering of many opponents, it has outlived them all, and long after their heretical churches have vanished, the Catholic Church survives, because it is the one founded by Jesus.
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Not only that, the harshest punishment that was ever invoked by reading something from the Index of Forbidden Books was excommunication which was rarely invoked.
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That may have been in the second or third sentence, can’t expect Bosco to read that far.
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Well he does seem to lump everything together doesn’t he? The worst that most people would expect was to have to go to Confession and to rid their house of any book that was said to cause harm to the understanding of the faith and thus the salvation of one’s soul. How dare they!
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For someone who claims to have met Jesus, he sure is gullible 🙂
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Does seem odd. 🙂
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The Spirit guides us into all truth – Bosco’s seems addicted to the opposite – as you say, odd 🙂
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Well as PT Barnham said, “There’s a sucker born every minute.”
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Ain’t that the truth of it!
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On the burned alive bit, of course, not, do you?
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Sorry, the papal bull of 1229 doesn’t say only bad translations are banned. It says the lay are forbidden any translations of the old and new. Anyway, scribes were meticulous and didn’t make errors.
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The catholic church esteems More so much, it made him the patron saint of politicians. Fitting, I suppose.
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More or less.
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Don’t forget the new catechism: ‘everything is relative, except liberal views, they are compulsory’.
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Indeed so. I think they are following the plans of Son Sue in the Art of Warmth.
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Bravo! That’s a good one Chalcedon. I think I’m going to steal it for future use. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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You’re welcome, ginny – alas, it is all too true.
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Goes so very well with, “Everything not required is forbidden,” doesn’t it?
Or was that the other way around? Oh well, not much difference.
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earth reboot
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There is a cartoon that I tried to post along with the ‘earth reboot comment but it did not copy across – worth a glance.
http://reknew.org/2015/06/lighten-up-earth-reboot/?utm_source=Website+Signup&utm_campaign=44abdb65a7-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_0de6226b5c-44abdb65a7-42046169
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Very funny Rob. It would be great if we could simply reboot the system. Sadly, we have to live with the virus and the constant frustrations of crashes and blue screens. 🙂
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Kinda makes me wonder what kind of screen saver God would have in mind. Scriptures?
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Reboot=French Revolution=Equality for All. 7 billion Emperors with new clothes. Of course, our new Chinese Emperor has the best suit.
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Cute one Rob.
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tHE cc BANNED ANY VERSIONS OF THE BIBLE TO lay people in 1227. Cathols here say only bad translations were banned. What is a bad translation? cathols don’t want to confront what their religion has done and stands for, when it is obviously wicked. Say it aint so. Good sister ginny says the CC burned no one for owning bibles. She is a great catholic. The willy nilly cathols admit a few were burned. That’s not being catholic. To be catholic one must deny any wrong doing.
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Hello Bosco. So nice to see you on a Sunday morning. I’ll offer my Communion today at Mass for your reversion.
Now, St. Jerome said “Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ,” some 1500 plus years ago. It is a very famous saying and has been repeated through history quite often. It is meant to remind folks to utilize Scriptures daily and guess what Bosco? They did. Your interpretations of history aren’t accurate and you’re simply disseminating information that is meant to mislead and only those who have practically no education or those who have forgotten what history they had in their school years. Which types do you hope believe your revised historical records? God bless. Ginnyfree.
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I had no idea and never even heard of the inquisition, until I was in Europe and visited a Roman state run torture chamber. I had to run out of it because I was going to vomit. And this is where you trust your salvation?
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Hello Bosco. I’ve got a good book by Dr. Peters on the heresies of the middle ages and if you want I can type out the misquotes you grabbed from the Protestant site that distorts them and their meaning to suit.
You said this:”tHE cc BANNED ANY VERSIONS OF THE BIBLE TO lay people in 1227″ and then complain that we respond to your twisted history by telling the truth about this. It was a really nasty heresy that was devastating folks all over the place, namely Albigensianism. Folks were busy translating all kinds of distortions into Scriptures. No kidding. Nothing new here at all. But the Church being the guardian of the true faith, had to act and since it is impractical to read each and every Bible in a town to determine which ones were acceptable and which ones were distortions, it simply was easier to get rid of them all EXCEPT those AUTHORIZED and available by and thru the Church. A Latin text was allowed everywhere.. Anyone who wanted to read the Bible could read it in Latin. So, Mr. Smartie Pants Clownie Guy, no one was deprived of the Sacred texts ever as you twist history to say. Nice try though. Next. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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I am not sure how recently this was – whether it was prior to 1063 but last year when on another Caribbean island my taxi driver who had converted to Christ a Baptist told me that the priest removed the Bible from his mother’s house after a telling off.
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That’s how the Roman state run religious holymen act. They hate the bible.
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Pope Innocent III stated in 1199:
… to be reproved are those who translate into French the Gospels, the letters of Paul,
the psalter, etc. They are moved by a certain love of Scripture in order to explain them clandestinely and to preach them to one another. The mysteries of the faith are not to explained rashly to anyone. Usually in fact, they cannot be understood by everyone but only by those who are qualified to understand them with informed intelligence. The depth of the divine Scriptures is such that not only the illiterate and uninitiated have difficulty understanding them, but also the educated and the gifted (Denzinger-Schönmetzer, Enchiridion Symbolorum 770-771)
Only costume holymen catholic can understand the bible, while they are at homosexual retreats.
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Oh Bosco! I got my very own copy of the 43rd edition of Denzinger last month.!!!!!!
It was one of the books on my perpetual Christmas list. I took the plunge and got it. I still am unclear about how to look stuff up in it and have barely gotten my toes wet. Is yours a hard copy or are you getting it some where on-line? Oh help! Please. God bless. Ginnyfree.
P.S. You may not want to help me though, cause I’ll only use what I know against you………………………………..sorry in advance, but I’m wired that way. Well, at least till you cry “Uncle” and revert.
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I get this info online. Ill never spend a penny on Roman state run religious manuscripts. When I am given one, I use the pages to put my fried fish on to drain the oil.
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ITEM #2 COUNCIL OF TOULOUSE – 1229 A.D.
The Council of Toulouse, which met in November of 1229, about the time of the crusade against the Albigensians, set up a special ecclesiastical tribunal, or court,
known as the Inquisition (Lat. inquisitio, an inquiry), to search out and try heretics. Twenty of the forty-five articles decreed by the Council dealt with heretics and heresy. It ruled in part:
Canon 1. We appoint, therefore, that the archbishops and bishops shall swear in one priest, and two or three laymen of good report, or more if they think fit, in every parish, both in and out of cities, who shall diligently, faithfully, and frequently seek out the heretics in those parishes, by searching all houses and subterranean chambers which lie under suspicion. And looking out for appendages or outbuildings, in the roofs themselves, or any other kind of hiding places, all which we direct to be destroyed.
Canon 6. Directs that the house in which any heretic shall be found shall be destroyed.
Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; unless anyone from motive of devotion should wish to have the Psalter or the Breviary for divine offices or the hours of the blessed Virgin; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books.
cathols will never publish this and wont even talk about it. Why? Because its the church that Christ founded. Christ doesn’t want people reading the bible. Wait…..Oh, its Satanas who doesn’t want people in the bible. Don’t talk about this. If you do, you are a hater and a bad person.
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Okie Dokie Bosco, I’ve taken it on. Here is the complete letter of Pope Gregory IX from my copy of Denzinger. I had to type so be kind: “Denz. 770 to 771 Letter cum ex iniuncto to the inhabitants of Metz, July 12, 1199 of Gregory IX
Our venerable brother the bishop of Metz has made known to Us by his letter that both within the diocese and in the city of Metz a sizable multitude of laymen and women, drawn to a certain extent by a desire for the Scriptures, have had the Gospels, the letters of Paul, the Psalms and the Moralia Job (of Gregory the Great) and many other books translated into the French language…as a result, indeed, it happens, that in secret assemblies these laymen and women presume to spew forth such things among themselves and to preach to each other: they also spurn the company of those who do not involve themselves in such things…Some among them also despise the simplicity of their priests; and when these priests, propose the words of salvation to them, they secretly murmur that they have something better in their writings and that they can express it more wisely.
But even though the desire to understand the divine Scriptures and the eagerness to exhort in accordance with them should not be criticized but rather commended, nevertheless, in this case, it is clear that these people are justifiable rebuked, because they conduct their own secret gatherings and they arrogate to themselves the office of preaching; they ridicule the simplicity of priests, and they refuse to be associated with those who are not engaged in such things. God, in fact….so despised such works of darkness that….he issued the command to the apostles, saying: “What I tell you in the dark, utter in the light, and what you hear whispered, proclaim from the housetops” Mt. 10:27, indicating clearly by this that evangelical preaching is to be offered, not in secret gatherings, as is done by the heretics, but publically in the Church, according to Catholic custom….
The hidden mysteries of the faith, however should not be explained everywhere to all, since they cannot be understood everywhere by all, but only to those who are able to grasp them with faithful understanding. This is why the apostle says to the more simple “As little children in Christ, I fed you with milk, not solid food” 1 Cor. 3:2
Indeed, so great is the depth of the divine Scripture that not only the simple and illiterate but even the wise and the learned are not fully able to probe its meaning. Beacause of this, Scripture says: ” For many who seek to discern are lacking discernment” Ps. 64:7. Wherefore, it was once rightlfully established in the divine law that a beast who touched the mountain (Sinai) soud be stoned Heb. 12:20; Ex. 19:12, for clearly no simple or unlearned person should presume to touch the sublimity of Sacred Scripture or preach it to others. For Scripture says: “Do not seek things too high for you” Sir. 3:22. This is why the apostle says: “Do not understand more than what is necessary to understand, but understand with sobriety.” Rom. 12:3.
Just as the members of the body are many but not all the members have the same function, so there are many orders in the Church, but not all have the same duty; for according to the apolstle: “Some the Lord has appointed as apostles, others as prophets, still others teachers,” etc. Eph. 4:11. Therefore, since the order of the teachers is, as it were, primary in the Church, no one should indiscriminately arrogate to himself the office of preaching.”
On the nest post I’ll explain a little. See ya there. Ginnyfree.
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Yes, people shouldn’t read the bible or have home studies. Kill them if they do. Especially if they don’t invite catholic priests.
I keep hearing cathols say that the unauthorized bibles had grave errors. But not on good cathol has ever said just what those grave errors were, or even a summary of them. Whats to be misunderstood? Christ and him crucified and then rose from the dead and sent the holy ghost for us. Im sure that message was in every translation.
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Here’s one: Romans 3:28 and the insertion of the word “alone” by Martin Luther.
Here’s another: the removal of seven whole books of the Canon of Scripture and parts of several other books of the OT.
Want another? The New World Translation.
If you need more I can accommodate. Let me know. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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One word…Alone…That’s it?And those seven books….ive taken a look at. They are worthless and not of god. I promised myself to jam anyone who brought up those fraud books. fake lands and fake names. One looks stupid saying those books are inspired. What a sham. Well, you all do bow befor the works of your hands…no wonder you believe false scriptures.
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And another thing Bosco…like Chalcedon and a few others here have noticed, you don’t read most of the Bible anyway and only focus on the few cherries you pick, so what do you really care about the Canon of Scripture remaining pure and unchanged? Have you ever seen the multitudinous number of different Bible translations and types there are these days? There are literally thousands to pick from. The Recovery Bible? for addicts only. The Sportsman’s Bible, for those who need to campout before they read theirs. For the duck hunter in your life: New Life Trans. Waterproof Bible : Sportsman Edition. New Century Version Mom’s Bible : God’s Wisdom for Mothers, only for moms so keep out Bosco. I’m wondering if they republished all of them in 2001 or what. Want those books back Martin Luther and his cronies took out? New Revised Standard Version New Oxford Annotated Apocrypha. How about this one: Tanakh-The New JPS Translation According to the Traditional Hebrew Text. Or in anticipation of the up and coming Transgender problems: The Contemporary Torah: A Gender-Sensitive Adaptation of the JPS Translation. After you’ve been thoroughly confused by the above, you can give up and buy this one: Clear Word Bible One Bible site I looked at has over 7100 different Bibles for sale. Yeah. And they all claim to be the inspired word of God. Next. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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I don’t know nuthin about them. I have the KJV, and calvary chapel uses the NKJV, which is Ok, I guess, but I wouldn’t use it.
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Now then Mr Bosco the Great Clown, Seeing it all in context gives some clarity to the whole mess the Pope was addressing. It wasn’t as you say a squashing of some simple people’s need for a Bible at all costs. Not at all. These people had Scriptures obviously in Latin which they knew well enough to translated into their own local French and had rejected others versions. They read their own Scripture versions in secret and would allow those who knew better into their little gatherings to read and preach to each other. Now if that isn’t enough, add that it was BOTH men and women doing the preaching and they considered their preaching more authoritative than the priests sent to them to preach by the Church. They rejected them, the priests. Then Pope Gregory explains that simple fact that it isn’t for any layperson to simply elect him or herself to any office of preaching or teaching as the appointment of such men as is necessary is left to the Church. Most folks knew this already and didn’t need it explained to them He also shows charity to these heretics by saying they were motivated by a fondness for Scripture, which I might add they and in abundance in Latin and understood enough to be able to translate it into their local French for themselves. That is not ignorance nor lack of education. They translated it into something it wasn’t meant to be: distorted and for use in “private.” The fact that they refused entrance to others who didn’t agree with them or join in their rebellion says that they intended to distance themselves from ecclesial communion with the true Church.
Then the Gregory goes on to explain that it isn’t for the average Joe or Jane in this case to simply take on to themselves the offices of the Church. They are desiring something reserved to the Ordained and for those given the proper authority and commission by the Church to preach. You can’t just decide one day to become a preacher. DUH. You know this pretty well Bosco, don’t you?
There is more I could say, but I’ve said enough. Maybe I’ll look up the Toulouse stuff too and pick that apart. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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OOOOOPS My bad typing is really distorting something important: I wrote: “They read their own Scripture versions in secret and would allow. those who knew better into their little gatherings to read and preach to each other.” but it should read WOULDN’T ALLOW . Yikes!! That’s really important. Sorry folks. Forgive me. I’m a lousy typist. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Ginnney Have you ever read the Histories of the Ancient Albigenses, and Waldenses and the inhuman tortures they were subject to in the crusades against them? I managed to access a copy which may be a rare book it needs an X rating – not for children, there is no charity to be found in it!!!
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Rob, my Savior was Crucified. I’m aware of what torture unto death looks like.
Heretics were handed over to civil authorities and however they were dealt with was up to the State. I have several reliable books on heresy and their refutations. I am also very aware of the distorted histories of things that get published by the modern spin doctors of all things Catholic who have motive for their historical re-writes. But, rest assured, I am in no way fearful of discussing things such as the handling of heretics and what they suffered as a result of their own folly after conviction, etc.
Perhaps it could throw some light on things if you realized that sentences against religion were part and parcel of being a member of God’s Chosen People, Israel, prior to Christ’s coming. If a person was tried for crimes against religion, the sentences were carried out immediately, i.e. stoning to death, stripping of properties, public shaming, banishment, etc. The Church never invented just punishments for crimes against religion and if anything we were exceedingly much more merciful than the Jews were under the Old Covenant. Try and keep it in perspective. Just punishment is justice.
It also may help if you allow for all religions actually do have in them means of administering justice as they see fit and according to their particular religious tenets.
Some food for thought. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Peter put away your sword!
Peter wounded and the RCC took up the practice Christ our saviour healed even at his arrest before the cross – would that the church had followed Christ’s example in preference to Peter’s. This stain on the church, today still hampers the task of evangelism which has been my lifelong chief purpose.
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I’m not a soothsayer and I cannot go back and tell you what would have happened if we did this or we did that. I only know that Christ does has a knack of bringing good out of evil.
If I were to judge rationally on how the Church (all Christianity) is faring today in this overwhelming secular, progressive, Marxist and modernist mindset, without being condemned or confronted . . . in fact, coddled and accepted with open arms . . . I would say that there is good reason to be thankful for the history as it unraveled; warts and all. Today’s situation leaves me to believe that the Gates of Hell could have prevailed at any time due to the attacks on Orthodoxy. Would we still be Christian, except in name only, had the various heresies had their way? Or worse, would we all be Muslim today had we not faced down their threat to the world?
I’m just saying that it is easy to say this is not the way of the Lord . . . but that their actions and ours are never exactly His ways either. And it does seem that if we have exhausted our dialogue and they are still intent on leading Christ’s Church to damnation, then there comes a point where one must decide if they must be confronted by whatever means to eradicate the threat to Christ’s Church. There are overtones to the fights the OT Church had to endure in all this as well. Only now in the NT Church we must rely on the head of the Church to decide when this is necessary because God is not going to speak to us He did to Moses and guide us to eliminate the biggest threats to God’s Will for the future of His Church.
I don’t have an answer for this as I think we all wish that our prayers would be enough to end such things from happening but when that fails you must wonder what we are to do . . . allow God’s promise because of our lack of action to turn to dust?
I’m amazed that we are still on this earth . . . which is enough for me. That we did some monstrous things at times is part of the human condition that we are still trying to conquer. But the outcome . . . is better than we deserve and we are still here where many a heresy is only a shadow of its former self.
The economy of souls is more important than our personal ideas of justice and how we, knowing what we know now, would have handled the various treats to the faith. After all, we can’t have a Church had we all been fed to the lions. Something must intervene in these situations.
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Sorry I can’t go along with killing the Christians I disagree with whatever the circumstances.
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Depends on circumstances to me. If Protestants are putting me to death in Mexico like the Christo Rey’s or in France like the Vendees I, for one, am not likely to want to sit about watching the army throw my child from bayonet to bayonet laughing while the crucify the other men, women and children in my village.
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Usually I have observed that in such racial, ethnic or religious uprisings of hate today that the reaction of the other side is as indiscriminate and duplicates the inhumane acts of the other side. In all such instances the just actions of government is to restore order and punish the culprits such is not province of or action carried out by or upon the institution of the church but is that of good civil governance.
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Jesus is a big boy. he can defend his church without our help.
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Then why did God send the Israelites to smite their enemies. It seems God works though his people in the Church. Otherwise, He could have just had them all drop dead. That is not how God has ever worked . . . though it is great wishful thinking that it would.
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You have heard it said by those of old … but I say to you ‘love your enemies’!
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Loving one’s enemies is right and If I am unfortunate enough to have to fight in a war I will love their souls and pray for their salvation. I will not sit about until the last Christian is fed to the lions or worse. I don’t think that is what Christ had in mind.
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Rob, ever hear the term “Frienemies?” I have several. I’m killing them with kindness. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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My favorite was when He sent the swarms of hornets before the Israelites to literally sting to death those enemies of His and theirs: Joshua 24:12 And I sent the hornets ahead of you which drove them—the Amorites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hittites, Girgashites, Hivites, and Jebusites—out of your way; it was not your sword or your bow. Imagine that – stung to death. Hello!!???!?
God bless. Ginnyfree.
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yeah Bosco. He’s got me – Ginnyfree!
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Good brother Rob, The Roman state run religion says unauthorized bibles contained grave errors. Just what were these errors?
I think it was just an excuse to kill people who wouldn’t join the Roman state run religion. The people who wouldn’t join and had little groups that met were born again people. The born again folks would never subscribe to a Roman run state religion full of the same graven images of the previous Roman state run religion befor the state changed the names of pagan deities to figures from the bible.
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Bosco: An interesting book you will enjoy is ‘The Pilgrim Church’ by E. H. Broadbent. It traces scores of Christian groups that on principle remained outside the RCC organisation and suffering 1,000 years of persecution for doing so. They were often accused of heresies they never held. Manicheism being a favourite slur, and suffering for it. Some claimed they had existed from the times of either the apostles of separated when the CC became united with the state in the fourth century. It’s an inspiring book about those faithful to Christ and the gospel. It’s probably still in print.
With regard to the claimed errors in their Bibles e.g. Wycliffe’s translation used the perfectly acceptable word ‘congregation’ or ‘assembly’ instead of the word church, which to the common people meant ‘the institution’ ruled by the religious hierarchy rather than the people of God the believers.
This obviously encouraged people to believe they could gather a simply a group of friends (the 2 or 3 in Jesus name whom he had promised to be with) to worship Jesus without all the accoutrements the church had devised. The RCC obviously had to try and stamp this sort of thing out over the centuries with however much bloodshed as was needed.
Of course the church itself we are told did not do any of this. It was just done by the kings, prices and dukes through the state. These rulers did however get ‘just a little’ encouragement from the RCC if they did not co-operate in the massacres they would excommunicated from the RCC and consigned to hell for eternity on the authority of the Pope, Christ ultimate representative on earth. This is the truth of RCC persecutions in its wider context.
My wife’s family descends from French Huguenots amongst the few that escaped the Catholic massacre in France so you have no need to convince me of RCC history. Soft words from across today’s Tiber fail to convince me that it was not a very evil institution devoid of the Spirit of Christ.
However I do not accused most of our friends here to be of that sort of spirit and sense that most of them are gentle souls with a genuine love for our Lord Jesus.
We should also remember that even two of the apostles wanted to bring down fire from heaven to destroy those who had not assisted Jesus mission while on earth. He told them that in their enthusiasm that they did not know what spirit it was that was motivating them. We have had one or two of those here at AATWT. James and John were converted and filled with the spirit of Christ and love lets pray for all those who want to return to the former RCC practice that they may come to know our Lord and repent.
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It is rather irritating to hear such things which makes it sound like the CC was the most ruthless and bloodthirsty people on the planet and responsible for more deaths than history can even count.
One quick look at the wars that have been fought on this earth and the estimated number of dead would put Protestant led countries at the top of the list in the Christian realm followed closely by the Communists and Nazi’s.
As far as who were persecuted the most in these past centuries one need only look at the Jews and Catholics who were killed by the millions in China, Russia and Germany. Not to mention, of course the fate of the Christo Rey’s of Mexico or the Vendees in France. Against the millions of deaths attributed to these wars the Catholics look like an unruly street gang in a large urban city.
How, I often ask myself, can the Protestant’s continue to point fingers without so much as a work of “I’m sorry” when their legacy of murder and persecution dwarfs that of the Catholic Church? It is because that it simply had the distinction of Christianity to become more than a Church for a while: being the head of state as well?
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Countries, yes agreed, terrible atrocities. However the Christian’s citizenship is in heaven and those claiming allegiance to Christ and a heavenly citizenship must be judged by a different standard and held to the duty of a better and divine example. There is no excuse for the evil acts of church clubs of any strip that have been done in the name of the Prince of Peace.
To confuse states with supposed churches is a category error of the greatest magnitude.
My reply was specifically to Bosco’s question sorry if the truth offends others here.
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I only offends me that Protestants never take responsibility for their own transgressions. You have not heard this argument from any Catholic here before because we have not thrown stones in this particular arena. But as this grows tiresome, I though a short volley of sorts might be useful.
Of course, the Protestants have never been a State. So that is their out and their defense. I would expect nothing else. But suffice to say that the majority of the people and the majority of their governance was made up of Protestant Christians and that with their express consent did things such as were done in Mexico and France and many other places as well. It is a futile argument and one that every Catholic here has, until now, steered clear; because if is merely a tactic to see who can throw throw the biggest stones and it has no bearing on the Truth of the Faith or the integrity of the People of God who hold to their Faith.
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Whether persecutions of the past have a bearing on truth, or on the nature of the spirit that previously operating through a community and may lay dormant in any such community is a matter of opinion not a fact.
Personally I thought that there were protestant princes and hence states in Germany that engaged in wars against Catholics, and Zwingli died (I am told) with a gun in his hand. I am sure the story was similar elsewhere and would value some Catholic education on the matter.
I would not consider it a matter of stone throwing.
For true healing abscesses must be lanced and thoroughly cleaned out, as any corporate body responsible for atrocities requires deep repentance and humility. My thinking is that the ground stained with the blood of all sides cries out the sins of past generations of those which claimed to be God’s church. It is my opinion that it probably restricts the blessing of heaven for today’s inheritors of those churches. I know that the Pope made apologies and have not heard of the same from any other corporate church body. But what we need is something more along the lines of the repentance of Nineveh at the preaching of Jonah.
Thank God I count myself neither Protestant or Catholic and look to the tradition of neither as an example. Sorry if this sounds superior it is not meant to but to sound a note of total renunciation of such an evil history. No doubt this has at times been a cause for anger at brothers which makes me also when unrepentant murderous in His sight.
A book titled “Sowing Seeds of Revival by ‘Martin Scott’” exegetes from scripture 4 causes of pollution of a people and its land (Idolatry, sexual immorality, bloodshed & broken covenant) these it is claimed, hinder the work of God in their communities. I believe the churches need to address these in their histories and current life to open the windows of heaven and receive a renewal of Gods blessings Acts 3:19.
Maybe this is part of the reason why Europe guilty of so much blood in the name of Christ is today a post Christian continent. Until we collectively engage in deep repentance I feel that big church boats will simply catch small fish.
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And I find nothing redeeming in going over dirty laundry in past of civilizations and churches alike. First, no everyone acted en masse to persecute and kill or abuse others (we have great saints that appear in every age of our 2000 year history). If it is necessary to have a Nineveh moment as you say, then it is not enough for you that the person whom we see as the Vicar of Christ on earth, apologizing for the entire Church and single member is not enough for you. Obviously, this is something that you or the Protestants cannot do . . . so maybe you have a point in their regard. If so, where are the apologies for the rape and murder of nuns and the total destruction of entire monasteries and the stealing of all their goods or the desecration of the Cathedrals where consecrated altars were used as pavers or steps into pubs. Or the churches transformed into apartments, pubs and houses of ill-repute. There is much more as you are aware. I think it gets us nowhere. And if we start trading ‘histories’ we are looking at a crap shoot for truth. For the history is usually written by the winners of any societal upheaval and in this case that would be the Protestants. How many Catholic histories have you read on the same issues, might be a pertinent question? So it seems futile to me to continue to bring up these books and authors and hold these dark feelings of that which no single group is without fault. There is blood a plenty for everyone’s hands. Why would one expect, especially since the Catholic Church held sway over the States of the Holy Roman Empire, that atrocities would not occur. Have you known of a state where an atrocity has not occurred?
We also are operating from a traditional history of persecution that is always present when we meet enemies of the teachings of the faith. From the early Jews and Romans to the Muslims and the heretics. It seems about as natural a response as one could ask for. And, as I said before, their efforts were not always in vain. Had it not been for the efforts of the Catholic Church, you would be a Muslim today as would everyone in Europe barring some unforeseen salvation for the Christians.
In my mind, it is time to simply say that men are fallen and we are sinners. To hold us to a higher dignity is the purpose of the Faith but not everyone, just like today, are Christians in reality rather than Christians in Name Only.
I see nothing in today’s news that does not at least suggest that persecution is coming again and we will see if the Church will rise up and give fight or flight in the face of these persecutions. You prefer flight and I say fight. In fact is there any reason for waging war more noble than one that is based on the gaining of Heaven or Hell? Or are the wars fought over economics, land, trade routes and social justice issues the only ones. I think we have an obligation to do what we can, even if it requires our life, to make sure that the Gospel will prevail once the smoke settles. Stopping the war is step one. When that fails we either let the enemy win or we fight.
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I do not prefer flight but rather the evangelisation of those that would persecute us.
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I doubt that when you are in your orange jump suit at the edge of the sea and your beheading enemy is behind you with his scimitar that you will be very effective. Best be in a sand dune out of sight with a high powered rifle and shoot these animals and then pray that God forgive them for what they have done.
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That as I say is the role of the military.
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. . . which could not possibly have any Christians in its ranks. We must use agnostics and atheists to do our fighting and dying for us if they are really followers of the Bible. Or have I misunderstood you?
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As you say the choice on conscientious objection is allowed in USA as in UK and one can in conscience take this option without taking a cowards way out of the conflict.
That is a far different case than for any religious body to initiate a war on the basis of its ideas and in order to enforce those ideas upon others. As happens with some sections of Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism towards other small communities when the host community has a virtually an absolute majority, unfortunately Christians of several stripes adopted this way of life in the past.
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And if you saw the necessity of Christ for everlasting life for these souls you, in their time, might very well have been zealous enough about their souls to do some imprudent things yourself. Motivations for peoples actions have something to do with the sin being levied upon others.
And if you were one of those being attacked, as the Christians were by the Muslims, would you still counsel Christians to only be medics in the conflict? I have never heard of a war won by medics but the value of a few good ones is wonderful: St. Padre Pio served as one himself. Other saintly men and women served by bearing arms.
I see no stricture by Jesus when he spoke to the soldiers in Luke 3:14 Soldiers also asked him, “And we, what should we do?” He said to them, “Do not extort money from anyone by threats or false accusation, and be satisfied with your wages.”
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I think the need for corporate repentance in our attitudes to our histories is a matter spiritual warfare and related to the authority that demonic powers in heavenly places holds sway over nations.
In that sense my concern is on a different plain to one of ‘dragging out dirty washing’. I do not think the matter is or can be dealt with by the head or significant leader of any group but by genuine remorse and confession produced by the Holy Spirit in a significant proportion of the church.
That view may be new, strange or ridiculous to many but it is not summarised by a ‘dirty washing, The concept is one that considers sin to have a corporate and trans-generation effect in empowering the accuser of the brethren before the Lord. In this theological conception revelation, recognition and repentance moves to disarm demonic accusation and open the way for outpourings of spiritual blessing on a people.
I hope that clarifies the concepts whether agreed with or otherwise.
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It does though it misses the Catholic idea of confession and forgiveness by God which does give an outpouring of the spirit to the one and to the ‘corporate entity’ being prayed for. JPII’s apology was not only to those victims but was made publicly to God Almighty and was inspired to be said by God Almighty. Now on the corporate level it was up to the Protestants to either accept this or not . . . and respond in kind. Since they did not, I am to believe that it was not accepted. But that is of little consequence since it is Christ that moved the Church to Apologize and it was to Christ to whom that apology was also given. Christ responds with absolution and grace as He does when we confess our personal sins.
So if you think you know of a way for non-Catholics to win an outpouring of spiritual blessings then please go for it. But the blessings are already existent and here if only the Protestant response was to join in JPII’s apology and confession to Almighty God. Nothing else is required.
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I have been unsure what you have meant by ‘apology’ when the Popes actions had been mentioned previously. It seems from what you say we are speaking about confession and remorse which I think is very meaningful and hopefully effective in so far as the church owned the response.
Here in Barbados the public confessions and remorse for slavery was done in recognition of the role the church took here. Generally the white Anglican slave owners prevented the gospel from being preached to slaves as they had some conscience about owning slaves that were Christians. So their solution was to prevent their conversion.
Their scheme was blown out of the water by the arrival of Moravian missionaries to the Caribbean that lived with the slaves.
We sought to address the matter it in a public way as representatives of the local white population and some from UK walked throughout Barbados in the ‘chains and yokes’ that were used on captive slaves and praying in confession appealing for forgiveness and blessing at strategic sites.
To some white folk here it was controversial as there are strong feelings of resentment over the past and current racism kept undercover. About 10% of the Barbadian population is white.
What has been done on the part of Protestants in Europe in response to their actions I am unaware I will put the question to the authors of the particular book I mentioned as I may be able to obtain contact through a mutual friend. He has been influential in the past in stirring collective consciousness over matters he thought needed addressing in prayer and confession.
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Where I become uneasy about this sort of thing is that it seems to involve buying into a particular version of the past. Precisely the same sorts of people who were making money out of indentured slaves in the West Indies were making it off the backs of my own ancestors in the factories of the industrial revolution, or in the fields of Cheshire and North Wales. To whom do I go for an apology for the way they were treated? Indeed, to whom do I go for an apology many people are still treated by capitalism? Just because I am ‘white’ does not mean I am in any way complicit in misdeeds done by men who were equally odious to my own ancestors, and I’d feel an utter fraud apologising for something I had no part in, and on behalf of amy ancestors, who not only had no part in it, but suffered themselves. The idea of ‘White guilt’ is an ideological construct. I shall await Ghanian tribal leaders apologising for selling their tribal rivals into slavery, first.
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Hear, hear. Well said my friend.
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Coming, as I do, from a long line of exploited workers most of whom died far younger than they should have because of the working conditions, I feel I’d be betraying them by signing up to ‘white guilt’ – they were white, and guilty of nothing more than being born into the wrong class if they wanted a long life.
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Indeed so, and I, the offspring of a Hessian soldier conscripted by a rich Brit to fight in his place here in the ‘colonies’ have nothing to apologize for though we were not well looked upon after the war when George Washington allowed us to settle the west (which was West Virginia and Kentucky at the time). We were not helped, we got no special rights or privileges and we had to make of ourselves good Americans . . . learning the language and the laws of the land. I have no guilt that my ancestor fought against this country in its beginnings and there were those in my family who served in every war this country has fought since then.
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I appreciate your understanding of things. Indeed the Welsh were similarly exploited by the wealth coal barons and had their language forcibly repressed as a policy.
However I think if we take the slavery issue as an example: – our nation as a whole benefited from slavery. In such acts of confession the individual identifies with the sin of his nation and ancestors as did the prophets in Israel. The remnant of God’s people in the land appeals for mercy on behalf of its people.
Those writing on this call it ‘identificational repentance’ I prefer “Identification confession’ that proceeds in acknowledging a past that deserves judgement while interceding for mercy and blessing from heaven.
On the human plain here in Barbados there is a strong underlying racism towards whites, particularly towards local whites and the attitude is reciprocated by Barbadian whites towards blacks. That a minority of the populace may have been implicated in past offences may be so but the offended party does not currently relate to that fact.
Whatever effects may be gained by the form of prayers some are engaged in there is also the hope of practical resolution of harmony between racial groups.
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I am sure prayer is good, it always is. I see, however, not the slightest sign that all these apologies for the past do the slightest good. Indeed, it seems to me that they encourage people to dwell on their supposed grievances in the hope of gaining reparations from those suffering ‘white guilt’. Far from helping alleviate the difficulties, it seems to me there is a case to be made for this approach actually institutionalising them because local interest groups see a source of power and money in them.
I am not sure the argument that the USA, on the whole, benefitted from slavery, would assuage black feeling on the matter – although it did.
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In the short run. 🙂
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Hello Chalcedon. I think the “answer” you seek is in Christ alone.
We are told to believe unless every tear we’ve shed or injury from another we’ve experienced has been compensated for, then we are the “victims” of injustice. At that point we are told by others someone “owes” us, and at a very base human level, a seed gets planted. We are the “victims” and somebody “owes” us a day in court at which we will be justly compensated for genuine harms done. Simple equation. Except is leaves us forgetting as Christians, we are told to forgive others in order to be forgiven by our Heavenly Father. Our Father, who are in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name…………..forgive us our debts as we forgive those in debt to us.
Think about that last. It is the opposite of what a “victim” of injustice desires. They want God to make others pay for what they’ve done and there are plenty of folks who will tell them they are “owed” and that IS JUSTICE! So, once you’ve bought into the “victim” thinking, you’ve stopped working towards the Kingdom as God wills it, that is with everyone forgiven. That is the “on earth as it is in Heaven” part we petition for. Everyone who is in Heaven has been forgiven. That part of the package that goes with the tour. However, down here on the dusty ball of dirt we call earth, not so much. If we are all about holding grudges and grumbling (here know I struggle with this every day as one of my personal sins) we aren’t forgiving at all or at best, under compulsion and thus grumbling, “yeah, I forgive but if the next bus comes along and runs him over…..” Well that attitude is only about us and not the Kingdom we are supposedly all about. Worse. When we act this way around other people, we fail them and our Baptism because we are Christians and are expected by society to forgive everyone. That means NOT asking for the “justice” we are told we are “owed” by those selling the “victim” mentality to others. In so doing, we fail in our debt to God and those seeking His forgiveness get a very bad message about what forgiveness means. It means being totally forgiven and not owing anything to God or anyone. How can we convey the message of Mercy, if we aren’t merciful ourselves? This does God no favors and the harm it does totally undermines the workings of the Mercy of God. Sure, God can get around it, but we’re not supposed to get in His way. We’re supposed to be about working to bring about His Kingdom.
Okie dokie. Ginny is now stepping down from her little soap box and handing the mike back to Chalcedon. Please forgive my little speech. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Nothing to forgive, right on the button there – give the lady a cigar or coconut according to choice 🙂
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The other point that I would certainly make is that those who are accused of being guilty of grave sin have met their Maker and the Judge of all judges has made His verdict and they either have been forgiven or punished. What can we as human beings add to that? Is not Christ’s punishment or forgiveness enough for us?
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All it does is set up a local industry in grievances, which can, of course, be ameliorated by the payment of danegeld. I don’t blame sharper like Sharpton and Jackson – if white folk are stupid enough to fall for this stuff, take their money and laugh.
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They have but it is not their money that they are taking it is all of ours.
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Indeed. I’d be interested to see if there is a single example of this sort of apologising sorting anything out. To repent of something one has not done is cheap – but in an age of cheap grace, I am not surprised it is common.
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It is and the white guilt or homosexual guilt or poor people guilt or what have you is being fed into our children heads in school and intensified by laws, politicians and media daily.
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And not one bit of it solves anything – except job creation for the otherwise unemployable 🙂
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Or handouts to the unemployable. 🙂
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That too, of course 🙂
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Idunno Chalcedon. Barbados sounds reeeeeeally nice, but hurricane season is right around the corner. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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As I say, since you have no corporate head to issue an apology for the whole of the past faithful who were guilty of serious sin, it seems that you have gone to great extremes to ‘right’ the wrongs of the past by a show of ‘solidarity’ not so different that we have seen rich people spend the night sleeping on subway grates to show their concern for the homeless. Now what this has to do with helping those folks who are now dead and easing your faux guilt for the sins of your forefathers I have no idea. It serves no purpose other than to say that you recognize sins have been committed in the past. Did any people ever living not commit sin against other people? Are we all to run about trying to outdo the other in our show that we are more sensitive than the other about these sins and take responsibility for them . . . though quite clearly they are not our sins as we have plenty of our own to worry about.
Where does such thinking stop Rob? Shall we look back to our origins. Are we guilty of our most ancient fathers pantheism or paganism; their rites of human sacrifice etc. Where did the people (who we are calling victims) come from and what were their practices and their sins against others. Did the come from Africa where they slaughtered other tribes, raped their women and perhaps ate their bodies?
Who on the face of the planet does not have such barbarity in their heritage and what religion does not have examples of such? I live in today’s world and am not much concerned in trying to understand the motivations behind certain things in the past which we might today call barbaric. I am sure that there is not a historian alive who can put themselves back into their society and their thinking to answer the fundamental questions of justification that these men and women made on a personal basis. And, as I said, this constant historical beating of Catholics by protestant authors of history is a bit biased to say the least. It is easy to point a finger at those who are died and buried long ago. If that makes one feel more Christian than other past Christians then they will continue to massage themselves as the good ones in history and the beam in their own eye will likely never be removed. Its time to live our own lives and not the lives of our forefathers.
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Wow Rob. That all sounds pretty impressive. I couldn’t imagine something like that going on in say a Florida town, with men dressed like Spanish sailors, etc. They were kinda brutal too. One thing I was told that maybe doesn’t justify the actions taken, but does give new understanding to the moral dilemma of slavery itself, is my reading of the Old Testament. Slavery, bloodshed, conquest, etc. are all a part of my history by my adoption thru Jesus Christ. I own it, as the saying goes. Doesnt’ say its right, but it is part of the history of Salvation. It humbles me actually. I too, was in bondage to sin and incapable of lifting up my head. God freed me from it all. If I give in to sin, sin will become my master, but as God says in Scripture, in Christ I can conquer my sins. And guess Rob? I’m still a freewoman thanks be to God. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Barbados is the island farthest out in the Atlantic and the first arrival point for the slave ships. They sold the slaves here from the most docile African tribes and bread them like cattle to sell onwards, there was no possibility for family units or family life to develop. Many see this as a current contributory factor in the rarity of marriage and family here. I held a meeting at my home here while it was under construction for the whole building tea. Asking them which of them was raised with a dad – not one of them had been. I related the Gospel to their situation and challenged them to allegiance to Christ and a way of life that would reverse the effects of their upbringing for their children.
The Moravians were the first Christian missionaries into Caribbean islands controlled by Protestant nations. The first two were about to sell themselves to a slave master as a means of reaching their mission field but eventual the queen (I think of Denmark) paid their passage. What follows is a little of their History. Zinzendorf seems to me somewhat akin to Jessica of our site here AATWT.
Zinzendorf 1722 he left the court in Dresden to establish a model Christian community. Out of a personal commitment to helping the poor and needy, he allow some persecuted believers to settle on his lands. The refugees established a new village called Herrnhut, but major religious disagreements emerged and the community was divided into warring factions Zinzendorf restored a semblance of unity. On 13 August 1727 the community underwent a dramatic transformation when the inhabitants of Herrnhut “Learned to love one another.” following an experience which they attributed to a visitation of the Holy Spirit, similar to Pentecost. Many issues were settled by this renewal. While different doctrinal views still occasionally threatened the unity of the community harmony of spirit was maintained so the revival could continue unhindered. Following this transforming revival a major 18th century movement for Christian renewal and mission ensued resulting in:
-Establishing continuous prayer which ran uninterrupted, 24 hours a day, for 100 years.
-Originating the Losungen, the “Daily Watchwords Biblical verses published today in 50 languages, the oldest and most widely read daily devotional work in the world an ecumenical ministry that transcends confessional, political and racial barriers of all kinds.
-Establishing over 30 settlements globally on the Herrnhut model, which emphasised a lifestyle of prayer and worship and a form of communal living in simplicity of lifestyle and generosity with wealth were considered important spiritual attributes.
-Sending out hundreds of Christian missionaries to the Caribbean, North and South America, the Arctic, Africa, and the Far East. They were the first to go to Caribbean slave islands starting at St Thomas in 1732 and the first missionaries in many countries of the world.
-Forming many hundreds of small renewal groups operating within existing churches of Europe, known as “diaspora societies”. These groups encouraged personal prayer and worship, bible study, confession of sins and mutual accountability.
I wonder if God could do something similar with AATWA if we concentrated on assisting one another in our mutual love for Christ.
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Yes, the sign of a true Christian – he judges everyone fairly : “There is no excuse for the evil acts of church clubs of any strip that have been done in the name of the Prince of Peace.” Does this include Christian recently back for Iraq and Afghanistan?
Let me know how that works for ya. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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The teaching of the NT is that Christ kingdom is not of this world and that our citizenship is in heaven not a national identity which we stand for whatever it actions.
Next we are told that the civil ruler “does not bear the sword for nothing” and that government is established by God’s authority. The ideal that government rules to grant peace and justice, not always the case but Paul wrote at a time when the government was far from perfectly just but better than anarchy.
So basically it seems God has ordained that civil government holds the power to order its society rather than the church – which may act a God’s prophetic voice and conscience towards the state.
Whether an individual Christian holds that he can be engaged in active military combat for ANY cause when called upon by his country is an individual call. I could not do so as there seem to be unjust caused our nations have been engaged in. Other causes may well come under the category of a “Just war” and again involvement in such would be down to individual Christian conscience.
I do not think I could bring myself to kill another human being in any circumstance and have wondered what I would do in a situation of just war. I’m now past that age but concluded earlier that I would not take a cowardly option and refuse all military service but would be prepared to be engaged in an ambulance core, rescuing the wounded etc – often a dangerous role. If forced to engage in active warfare I would take the option of imprisonment as a consequence of disobedience.
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Indeed we have the right, in this country, to claim ourselves to be Conscientious Objectors which does not excuse one from serving as a medic.
Interesting where you draw the line between Church and State when at one time the Church was the State. You give to the secular state the blessings and ordaining of God and yet when it is the Church who was given this power you reject it.
Now, let me finish my thought on your Nineveh moment. If every Christian was to don sackcloth and ashes seems to be apple and oranges to the Biblical account; for they were doing penance for their own sins. You expect churches to do penance for ancestral sins which sounds like wanting to do penance for original sin and the transgressions of Adam and Eve. It is totally useless and superfluous. I was unhappy when the Pope issued his apology until I realized that as the Vicar of Christ he could issue an apology not just for this age but for all time: being that Christ is outside of time and he is His representative on earth. That gave him both the ability and the means to effect an apology for all of the Church back to its beginnings. Now you or Protestants have no such ability. If you want to apologize for actual sins that you yourself did not commit, have at it, but it is totally worthless and is, quite frankly, not anyone alive today’s fault. So how can you do penance for your ancestors in the faith?
So my position is that you folks who like to hold the Church to account from age to age for various infractions should offer the same ‘forgetfulness’ that the Catholic Church has used with you. It is not that we do not have histories that we can fling in your face but we find it totally useless. It is like the situation in America today where the black leadership has decided to invoke ‘white guilt’ on everyone though none of these people are responsible for the situation that the blacks found themselves in during the time of slavery or find themselves in today. In today’s world their problems come from a different source; their own black leadership and the progressive leftwing politicians and teachers.
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Why let the facts prevent you from writing a good history booK? If it slams the one true Church Christ founded, they’ll buy it. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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The one true church Christ founded.
The tortures and murder and burnings of people alive, the red hot pokers in the eyes, the tearing out of peoples tongues, and now the unending child abuse.
The first protestants were Roman state religion followers. The only thing they knew was to torture and kill, because that’s what the Roman state religion did. That’s how they were raised. And if Roman state religious were persecuted and killed, that’s fine by me. Turn around is fair play. You think im bad……look at what god has in store for these wicked people. An eternity separated from gods warmth.
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P.S. I really enjoyed the humor in the beginning of this thread. SF is actually kinda gifted for satire I’d say. Thanks for the laughs.
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Thank you Ginny.
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It seems God works though his people in the Church. Otherwise, He could have just had them all drop dead. That is not how God has ever worked .
Yes, god works thru men and he even made Eve by taking a rib from Adam, when he could just as well made Eve by the wave of his hand.
Good brother Servus, I understand you teach the Roman state religion to newbies. let me refresh you memory on your quote…….” It seems God works though his people in the Church. Otherwise, He could have just had them all drop dead. That is not how God has ever worked . ”
In Isaiah, I believe it was Good brother Senacharibs troops that just dropped dead, about 180,000 of the, or something like that. Your students, can they get their money back if they feel they were undereducated?
Maybe it was 18,000 that dropped dead. Im too lazy to go look.
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Servus, I agree with Ginny, good humor. Boy, did this discussion go off topic. I find both Rob and Bosco thinking they know all of Christianity, but neither of them has been willing to join any group. They seem to want to stay above the fray so as not be stigmatized with any dirt whatever. They pick and choose only “their” good. Rob states he is neither Protestant or Catholic, but continues to bash Catholicism, although I don’t hear him bashing the Protestants. Am I deft? And gov’t being God’s legitimate authority? What about the coup that took over Russia in 1917, or well, just in the last 100 years, the list would be longer than I have the effort to think about. A good Tuesday discussion.
I am sorry to say that I have been bombarded with questions wanting to know if you were too racist & homophobic to come truly out of the closet as a Black, homosexual Chinese man with varying (you know, as the wind blows) gender identity questions.
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Its complicated Steve. Ask Fred, he knows.
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I have always been associated with a church and if you were aware of other threads you would find that I have identify myself as of Anabaptist traditions for the sake of those who wished to use labels.
The churches to which I have belonged would prefer the simple title Christians and our fellowships have always been open to followers Christ, of good report, from any denomination. The names attributed to us often began as derogatory slurs or the simple tendency by others to categorise others by a name other than Christian.
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Not only do scriptures condemn the use of idols, , it condemns separating ones selfs into factions.”I am of Cephas, or I am of Apollos. Both of these abominations are championed by the Roman state religion.
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And you have separated yourself into the faction that calls itself Protestant or “Saved” and you are of King James and his version of the Bible, are you not?
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I am not of King James. I never met the man. its a stretch to call me of a faction. I wasn’t even aware that I was saved until maybe a few years after I was changed. Good brother, I urge you to stop giving your time and money to a crime syndicate. its time to draw the line in the sand. The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
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And I urge you not to separate yourself into some micro-club faction of ‘saved persons.’ There is a whole world of Christians out here and you don’t have the pure form of it as you think.
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Bravo!
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Good brother Johnpal apologized for his religion being wicked and murderous. Should we accept his a0plology? yes. And people should stop giving it money and joining it and should leave it.
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